Ep 265. - Did Erdogan Save Gaza? | Sami Hamdi
This week we interviewed Sami Hamdi to discuss Turkey’s role in the recent ceasefire, the growing UAE-Israel alliance, and shifting U.S. policy in the region. He also examined how global power politics continue to shape the struggle for Palestinian liberation.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:02
Sami asalam allayikum. Welcome back to the thinking Muslim here in sunny California. Thank
0:07
you for having me. Thank you so much for uh for joining us and uh I have to say a special thank
0:14
you to brother Amar from the prophetic mentality podcast for giving us this studio here in uh in
0:20
lovely California. I mean I think California is probably topping uh my best places in in America
0:26
it seems. Tammy, I'm going to let you make that statement and uh you know, if you want to offend Americans like that, go ahead, my friend. I think should we make a comparison with New York again? I
0:35
think I'm I'm going to I'm going to going to keep quiet. I learned my lesson last time. Well, look, today we're going to talk about um uh Gaza, of course, about the ceasefire, about ch the chances
0:46
of going into a phase two of the ceasefire. Um as always, I we need an update on the politics,
0:53
what's been going on, uh whether the ceasefire will last. um you know last couple of days you know it's been pretty rocky I think when it comes to the ceasefire is Trump really committed to
1:04
uh to this peace plan but I want to start uh I think with uh uh I think there is a a question
1:12
to be asked about the role of Turkey the role of Turkey when it comes to brokering this uh
1:19
peace deal um I suppose my question is did Erdogan save Gaza now that's you a difficult question to
1:27
ask because of course for two years you and I have been talking about the lack of action from Turkey, the lack of action from from Erdogan. But it seems Erdogan with his foreign minister Hakan Fidan
1:38
was quite instrumental in getting Donald Trump to put pressure on Netanyahu to accept the ceasefire
1:45
um and of course to persuade Hamas. Um I think it was also said and I read this in the Middle
1:51
East eye that uh the Sharmos conference uh that the summit that took place to consolidate to to
1:58
uh to sign the deal. Um Netanyahu is meant to turn up to that. Uh but instead uh Erdogan pressured or
Turkiye role in ceasefire
2:06
lobbied uh Donald Trump uh to exclude Netanyahu from that meeting. So it seems like um uh Turkey
2:14
played a central role here. Is that how you read uh read the situation? I think that the statement
2:20
that Turkey has saved Gaza is too strong and absolutely and categorically false. I don't think that Turkey played any role in saving Gaza. I think it's a it the framing of the question itself
2:31
implies that Turkey worked tirelessly for the sake of Gaza and the like. Whereas I think that they
2:36
like many Muslim nations when they weighed their interest versus stopping the genocide they found that their interest took greater priority than the genocide itself. And we saw how Erdogan played
2:45
this balancing act by which he tried to do enough to appease public sentiment with regards to the
2:51
genocide while trying to make sure that he kept you know maintained the trade with the Israelis and the like. Fearing that if he offended the Israelis too much by standing against the genocide
3:00
then maybe it would result in pressure from the Americans and subsequent economic pressure and
3:05
he would lose his lobbying power with regards to Syria and the like. I'm not necessarily passing
3:10
judgment on any of it. I'm simply saying that when Erdogan had to weigh between the genocide and between Turkey's interest, it was sen me and you know Turkey is everything. I think so I think
3:22
it's not the case that he saved Gaza. I think it's more that Erdogan now sees a golden opportunity to
3:30
uh expand and to get involved with what's happening in Gaza. There's an opportunity
3:35
here now for Erdogan. sees it, which is why he's sprung into action to actually benefit from what
3:41
has happened in Gaza itself. Not necessarily benefit from the genocide. From his perspective, it's there's something now I can actually help with, which is navigating and helping Donald Trump
3:51
to create a peace plan that does not necessarily align with what the Israelis want. What Erdogan is
3:58
saying is because I was patient for two years, because I kept the ties with the Americans, because Haken Fidan hugged Marco Rubio very tightly, even as Marco Rubio said that they
4:07
need to kill all the Palestinians or they let them kill them all or the like. And I can't remember the exact phrasing of it. Even though Haken Fidan hugged him tight regardless of it,
4:15
even as Erdogan continued to, you know, praise Donald Trump and the like, despite the fact that Trump was supporting the Israelis, Trump by his own words, saying, "I was giving weapons,
4:24
you know, to help the Israelis to bomb Gaza itself." The Turks are arguing that because they were patient for those two years, because they didn't lash out, because they didn't act
4:33
erratically from their perspective with regards to the genocide and rather focused on what they could do as opposed to what they couldn't do. This is their perspective. Erdogan is saying,
4:42
"I'm now in prime position to lobby Donald Trump on the other side." So, Israel lobbing on this side, Erdogan lobbying on the other side. What I mean by this is the Israelis were dragged into the
4:53
ceasefire by Donald Trump. And I think there are a couple of reasons for that. I think first of all, the attack on Qatar, which when we sat in the last episode, I suggested that the idea that Donald
5:03
Trump knew about it and allowed it seems very unlikely based on the dynamics. It is more likely
5:08
in my opinion that Trump did not know the Israelis were going to attack the Qatar and that he was informed afterwards. The reason being is that I think the attack on Qatar and Trump's concern
5:17
that that will affect his personal investments in the Gulf where he's set to make a lot of money
5:22
from the Gulf. Jared Kushner is entering with Saudi Arabia on a $50 billion deal to buy EA
5:28
Sports. Eric Trump has huge investments that he's planning to put into Qatar, whether it's building
5:33
Trump Tower, whether it's buying land and building all these things. I think Donald Trump felt this one was too close. This affects me personally and that Israel is going raid and I need to re in the
5:43
Israelis otherwise not necessarily that he cares about Palestine but they're going to ruin my own personal ties with these Gulf States with whom I have a lot of investments with buy Trump hotels in
5:53
order to win lobbying power. The UAE they also invest in Donald Trump. They gave 3.4 trillion
5:58
to Donald Trump. Trump was concerned all this might be jeopardized by the attack on Qatar. And therefore there is according to reports Donald Trump indicating that there is something that
6:09
the Israelis did that needs to be reigned in. And the reason why I think that is if you think about who met with Hamas before the ceasefire one week before Donald Trump sends Jared Kushner and Steve
6:20
Witkoff. Steve Witkov okay fine. Donald Trump has sent Adam Boler before to talk to Hamas directly
6:25
and bypass the Israelis. But Jared Kushner, who is an ambassador for Israel in the White House,
6:31
who is Israel's main man. For Jared Kushner to go and meet with Hamas, that's no small feat.
6:36
That indicates that Jared Kushner on an ordinary day would never do that. Jared Kushner would never
6:42
entertain that. Jared Kushner is pro- ethnic cleansing. Jared Kushner wants the Palestinians
6:48
out and wants the Israelis to take Gaza. Jared Kushner wants to see the genocide continue. Jared Kushner is hardcore pro-Zionist in this regard. For him to accept Trump's order to
6:59
go to talk to Hamas to get them to push for the ceasefire with Turkey and Qatar behind the scenes
7:04
pushing Hamas to accept the deal. That means that Jared Kushner went to Hamas to try to broker a
7:10
ceasefire because in his view, my father-in-law is so angry he might jeopardize the whole project
7:16
completely. My father-in-law is so upset at what you Israelis have done. He might jeopardize the
7:22
whole thing. I need to step in here. I need to try to negotiate the ceasefire. Otherwise, the way you guys are operating, you might lose my father-in-law. You might lose the White House. You
7:31
might lose America. And this is why I think Jared Kushner alongside Wickoff and Trump. They imposed
7:38
this ceasefire on Netanyahu. And Netanyahu is sort of stunned that suddenly he's been forced to into a ceasefire. when that ceasefire was was was imposed or when it was imposed on Netanyahu,
7:48
Netanyahu has been looking for an opportunity to ruin that ceasefire. So, he activates local groups in Palestine or in Gaza to go after Hamas. Hamas of course went and took out a number of these
7:58
groups. Netanyahu was surprised that when he's pushing the narrative that Hamas is executing
8:04
and going after other Palestinian factions in order to assert itself, Donald Trump is saying, "I know what's happening. I've been told this is what's happening. they're just asserting control
8:14
on the ground. We don't mind them doing it. When the Israelis realized that this was not enough to
8:19
get Trump to reverse the ceasefire, they then began to bomb Gaza on the pretext that somehow
8:24
Hamas had caused an explosion and therefore they need to go in and bomb to save Palestinians from Hamas. According to Ryan Grim and Drop Site News and later Al Jazzer and other reports and the
8:35
like, when the Israelis told the Americans that we're bombing Gaza because of an explosion that
8:41
Hamas is doing, the Americans responded with, "Who are you kidding here? It's not Hamas that we know
8:46
you did it. We know it's an Israeli bulldozer that went and did it," indicating that we're not happy with you breaking the ceasefire. You need to restore it. And later on, the bombing would
8:54
stop and the is the the ceasefire would be held. And not only that, Donald Trump then sends JD
9:00
Vance to Tel Aviv to babysit Netanyahu as they go through the second phase of the peace process. And
9:07
JD Vance just before we entered the studio here today gave a speech from Tel Aviv in which he says
9:12
that we've set no deadline on the disarmament of Hamas. Now that's not the Israelis talking. That's
9:19
Turkey talking to Trump. That's talking to Trump. That's these two saying to Donald Trump that look,
9:25
we know you want the peace. We can help you guarantee that peace, but we can tell you how to do it. The Israelis don't want it, but we can guide you through this peace. We can bring Hamas
9:34
to this ceasefire where you can tell the world you made peace. We can bring Hamas to accept your terms that they won't rule Gaza. But to do it, you need to listen more to us who know better
9:43
how to approach it. And the Israelis are stunned that that Trump is saying about Erdogan. He's a
9:49
difficult guy, but he's my friend. I'm willing to listen to him on this regard. Erdogan hasn't saved Gaza here. What Eldan has done is he's found an opportunity where the powers that he
9:59
has he believes he can finally deploy them for the sake of Gaza. And there are two things worth noting here before before I I seed. The first is that what Turkey understands and what Hamas have
10:10
understood is Donald Trump is less interested in the details and more interested in the headline of peace. Donald Trump doesn't care how this ceasefire pans out. He does not care what Gaza
10:21
looks like after the ceasefire. He cares that the world says that where Biden burnt, Trump fixed.
10:27
Where Biden let the war explode, Trump fixed it. Where Biden led to genocide, I brought the peace
10:33
and the like. Turkey, Turkey understands this, which is why they told Hamas and the Qataris, agree to the deal. Let's accept it. When they accepted it, Trump revealed that Turkey's gamble
10:44
was correct. They understood Donald Trump because on the Air Force One plane when he's flying back, he's asked when will Tony Blair assume control of Gaza under the peace council. And Donald Trump
10:53
responds and says, "Well, first let's see how popular Tony Blair is to the parties." Popular
10:59
with who? He's already popular with the UAE, who I think proposed Tony Blair to govern Gaza
11:04
in the first place. He's already popular with the Israelis. He's already popular with the Americans.
11:10
So Donald Trump is not looking for Tony Blair's popularity based on these three parties who are the progenocide parties. Tony he's talking about the popularity of Tony Blair amongst
11:20
Turkey amongst the Qataris semi a bit amongst the Egyptians and more importantly amongst Hams and
11:27
the Palestinians with whom Trump sent Kushner and Witkov to negotiate with directly. The indication
11:32
being they understand that Trump's plan is not necessarily fixed. And the second point here is that Turk now is pushing very hard for the establishment of an international force inside
11:43
Gaza. Something the Israelis are screaming about and railing about to prevent Trump from accepting.
11:50
Because Erdogan's consideration is this. Right now he is king in Syria. He is the one lobbying
11:55
on behalf of Syria. And while Ahmed Shar may be the president, the reality is that Syria now is now primarily under the Turkish orbit. And Ahmed doesn't necessarily have a problem with it.
12:05
Neither do many of the Syrian Arabs either, given that Erdogan stood with them when the world had abandoned them, albeit for his own reasons, but that's a different issue entirely. The Israelis
12:15
are concerned that if Trump approves a Turkish Qatari, maybe Egyptian given CC is upset with the
12:22
Saudis and the UAE and is now doing joint drills with the Turks and the ties are improving rapidly because the UAE tried to bully CC into taking in the Palestinians to help Israel ethnically
12:31
cleanse Gaza. If a joint force of Turks, Kataris, Egypt probably won't join. Maybe inf they might
12:37
join. Then the Israelis cannot, if this int force has a UN mandate, go in and bomb Gaza
12:43
again. The plan to enex Gaza is completely off the table. The plan to go back to the genocide
12:48
is completely off the table. As far as Israel is concerned, Erdogan must not be allowed to send a
12:54
single Turkish troop into Gaza. Haken Fidan is presenting it and sincerely in my opinion
13:00
as we need to send this international force to oversee the aid that's going into Gaza. We the
13:05
Turks on behalf of the Americans as a NATO partner under the banner of NATO want to go into Gaza to
13:12
ensure the aid goes in because Mr. Trump for your peace to succeed we need to rebuild Gaza. For your
13:18
peace to succeed we need to rebuild it. Mr. Trump you don't want to spend a single penny on Gaza. Definitely I don't want to spend a single penny on Gaza. So Mr. Trump, why don't you let us do it? We
13:27
are your allies. We are good friends with you. We didn't upset you during the genocide. We continue trading with the Israelis. We kept ties with the Israelis and and the like. We tried to keep the
13:36
peace. We are the peacemakers here. Let us be as we are in Syria keeping the peace for you there.
13:41
We can be your peacekeepers also in Gaza as well. Hakan Fidan is saying we can deliver that aid. The Israelis are telling Trump the Turks are lying to you. Once Erdogan enters Gaza, he will never
13:52
leave. Once the Turkish troops are there, he will never leave. and will never be able to ethnically cleanse Gaza, nor will we be able to enex Gaza itself. So the point is not that Erdogan saved
14:03
Gaza. It's that Erdugan who believed and this is not a defense but rather this is his perception of it. Erdogan who believed he had no power to stop the genocide without risking the complete
14:13
collapse of Turkey. Erdugan says, "Hang on a second. Now that there's a ceasefire, I can see a role for myself here. I can actually influence what's happening. Donald Trump actually likes me.
14:23
I can leverage that in a way I could never with Biden. I can leverage that for the benefit of the
14:29
Palestinians. I believe that Erdogan does care about them in a way that bin Salman does not. I
14:35
believe that it could I can influence the 21point peace plan. I believe that Trump and Netanyahu are
14:41
not getting along which is why JD Vance is babysitting him. And the greatest challenge Erdogan has now is not necessarily the Israelis given the divide between Trump and Israel that's
14:50
that's that's growing. His biggest challenge now is Saudi Arabia and UAE are scrambling to ensure
14:56
this ceasefire breaks. They are scrambling to ensure that Hamas has no role in the Gaza post
15:04
genocide because the Turks believe they can convince Trump to allow Hamas to have a role. Trump is not necessarily averse to it. There was a report where Trump said these guys lasted for two
15:13
years and you guys could not defeat them. The same way he kind of spoke about Ahmed Shara, the Saudis in UAE are so upset about it that just yesterday from the time of this recording they issued a
15:24
joint statement Saudi and UAE that they will not give a sing they will not give a single penny or
15:29
scent given in America to Gaza so long as Hamas is there as long as and look at the the look at the
15:36
difference in the position here. This is I promise I finish on this point. This is the the difference in the point. JD Vance is saying Trump's vice president is saying there is no timeline on the
15:48
disarmament of Hams suggesting that Erdogan has told them let's be easy on that one. Let's keep
15:54
the peace. These guys can keep the order and negotiate with them as you go along your plans. Trump appears to be consider agreement considering this view. So JD Vance is saying let's not rush
16:05
it. The Saudi and UAE and the Israelis are saying we need to rush it and Mr. Trump we will not
16:12
rebuild Gaza so long as Hamas are there indicating we want to see the Israelis destroy them. We want
16:18
them completely to be eradicated. So the irony now with Trump is you have the Turks and the Kataris on one side and you have Saudi UAE and Israel on the other side and Trump is yet to decide which
16:28
way he wants to go. As it stands now, it appears that he's leaning towards Erdogan only because
16:33
he believes that Erdogan is sincere in saying, "I'm not here to challenge you. The Israelis have
16:38
led you astray. I'm willing to help you out as a friend." Whether Erdogan succeeds or not is very different. But he did not save Gaza. He is not saving Gaza. He's rather he's seen an opportunity
16:49
to deploy the leverage that he has and he believes that this is within the realm of powers that he
16:54
currently has and he seems to be rather effective at it at the moment. Now I've interrupted this
Donate to Baitulmaal
16:59
program for a very very brief minute just to talk to Mazin Mktar. Marzim Mktar is a sponsor of
17:05
Thinking Muslim but more importantly he's the CEO of Betal Mal and Marzin and I have got to know one
17:10
another for alhamdulillah uh for the past year I think we've we've met briefly in London but I came
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to see you in Dallas and subhan Allah I really respect the work that Beto is doing and uh and
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you know I I've said it I've said it to a number of people that we don't really have sponsors on
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this program uh but when you came along and we We did our due diligence. Subhan Allah. We felt that
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Betto was a charity that really lived up to its uh its what it says. It what it says is what we
17:43
get. So Jazak really thank you so much for your sponsorship. But Mazin, I wanted to ask you maybe
17:48
just a couple of questions for our audience. First question is Gaza. Gaza is of course a
17:53
a pain in our hearts and you said something to me that since day one you've had people on the ground
18:00
in Gaza. just explain that to to our audience please. Before this crisis happened, we already
18:06
had staff on the ground in helping and this is why we were able to start delivering aid within the first 24 hours. Now, the crisis continued and we quickly set up a base in Egypt and a
18:18
base in Jordan so that we can continue to deliver aid and this is why we were able to deliver aid every single month in convoys of aid until the latest blockade. And when the blockade happened,
18:28
we already were set up so that internally without bringing new convoys from outside, we were we
18:34
built a school in Raza. We uh deliver clean water in Raza. We have a BL kitchen uh in Raza.
18:42
And we have had a continuous stream of medical missions going into Raza. You know, brother Mazin,
18:49
um I'm I'm a I'm a cynical Brit. And often um when we think about charities, we always have
18:56
a lot of excuses in our mind and challenge. And I met you and your team in in Dallas, all of your team, mashallah. And then I was just I was impressed with you know the people you have
19:06
and the commitment like how do you instill such commitment amongst uh your workers, your your
19:11
colleagues. The thing I'm proud most of in Bulme is the quality of uh our colleagues and the staff
19:18
at Bul. We choose the best people and we try to do the best work to the best of our ability and
19:24
this has paid off in a big way. We were able to anticipate crisis after crisis and we were able to respond effectively. And if anybody is wondering about our work, please visit the field or ask
19:35
somebody who is in the field whether it's in Gaza or somewhere else. You know, I'm planning to come
19:40
visit some of your field operations, but just tell me about Gaza. Um like are you confident inshallah
19:45
tala with Allahh's help that uh now that aid is getting in are you confident that a charity like
19:52
yours is really going to make a difference when it comes to feeding um the starving in person? This
19:59
is a a difficult question. Yes, I am confident it makes a difference because we don't have to solve
20:05
the entire problem. If I can make a difference in one person's life, that is huge. that is work all
20:11
worth worth all the work that myself and my staff are working on. This is what it's really about. In
20:16
the end, it's up to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to decide what is the overall impact. But what he has
20:22
charged us with doing is putting our best effort. We have been doing our best effort and it has paid
20:27
off for all that you do. And um let me remind our viewers that if you want to contribute to Betalm
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uh if you want to donate to Betmal go to btml usthinking btml us/thinkingmuslim
20:46
okay because I I'm I'm struggling in a sense to understand that the difference he's not saving
Erdogan fundamental in ceasefire?
20:53
Gaza but he's effectively using his leverage now in order to uh apply pressure on the white house
21:01
uh in order to get through this ceasefire as well as um um curate uh the next the the the process
21:08
after uh into phase 2. So there is obviously you know Erdogan is using his leverage. Now of course
21:15
not withstanding he hasn't done that until until now. So I so my question really is that just paint
21:20
that the distinction you're trying to make there. Why is it that you still claim or you still argue
21:27
or suggest that um this is still you know doing what he does? I I don't think it I don't think
21:34
my my claim is that he's doing what he does. He didn't save Gaza, but he's trying to reinforce
21:41
Gaza now. He was fundamental in in in getting this ceasefire broke it. I don't think that Erdogan was
21:47
fundamental in getting the ceasefire. Really? I think the ceasefire came about because Israel blundered when they attacked Qatar and also the shift in public opinion in the US whereby Trump
21:57
finds room amongst his base to go up against the Israelis. Not necessarily that Trump is interested in going up against the Israelis, but he's watching his base. So Erdogan here doesn't really
22:04
play a role in bringing about the ceasefire. The only role Erdogan actually plays is telling Ham,
22:11
accept the ceasefire deal and we'll help negotiate Trump the terms of that ceasefire deal. But the
22:16
idea of the ceasefire itself is brought about because Israel blundered so spectacularly and put
22:22
Trump in a very difficult situation whereby Trump turns around and says, "I need the ceasefire. You guys are going wild." It has nothing to do with Erdogan. It has nothing to do with Turkey,
22:30
which is why he didn't save Gaza. When Israel blundered and created that opportunity for
22:35
Turkey to influence, Turkey is saying, "These guys are so stupid. They had America on their side. They overstretched. They went too far. They lost American public opinion which had nothing to
22:45
do with Turkey. They resulted in a shift in the far right which had nothing to do with Turkey.
22:50
They caused this split on the right wing in the in the US which had nothing to do with Turkey. Albeit
22:57
maybe TRT world might have reinforced it with some media things here and there. Although I don't think they're that influential with regards to the right-wing debate that's taking place in the
23:05
US. So he had nothing to do with saving Gaza in bringing about that ceasefire. Rather what I think
23:10
the distinction is given the Israelis blundered Erdogan who felt like his hands were tied behind
23:16
his back because he felt he didn't have the power the moment the opportunity showed itself and this
23:21
is what Erdogan is legendary for the moment the opportunity shows itself Erdogan is known to
23:26
pounce on the opportunity I think that the image of Erdogan if I had to put it in a very simplistic term is his hands are tied the Israelis go and hit suddenly Trump's investments he's worried about
23:37
his investments and the Turks go this is it. This is my chance. This is the opportunity. Let me go
23:43
to Donald Trump while he's upset with the Israelis and tell him, you see, I can guarantee you peace.
23:48
These guys are giving war. That's not saving Gaza. That's taking advantage of the stars aligning.
23:54
That's taking advantage of an opportunity that has prevented itself. One could argue, although I'd be
24:00
very hesitant to use this word, one could argue that now he is trying to save Gaza from terms of
24:08
a ceasefire that will paralyze and chain Gaza. He's trying to save Gaza from a collapse of the
24:15
ceasefire. He's trying to save Gaza from terms that the Israelis want to impose to chain Gaza.
24:22
He's trying to save Gaza from a paralysis that will prevent it from developing the means to
24:29
prevent a genocide again. He's trying to save Gaza by putting an international force there to
24:36
ensure the genocide cannot be repeated again. So he didn't save it. He wasn't instrumental in the
24:41
ceasefire, but he's certainly now instrumental in countering the Israeli influence and lobby that is
24:49
trying to impose terms because Trump forced them into a ceasefire that they did not want. He's
24:55
taking advantage of this weakness that suddenly appeared amongst the Israelis. Whether you want to use the word as that they saved Gaza, I wouldn't use that word. Is he saving Gaza? Maybe you could
25:07
argue that Gaza, which was abandoned, finally has at least two Muslim states standing behind
25:15
it that are trying to represent it at the table with Donald Trump. Not to give Gaza a best case
25:21
scenario, but to tell the Gazins, listen, you're tired. You've had the two years of genocide. Now listen to us, Hamas. We're going to negotiate the deal for you, and you're going to accept this
25:30
deal. And Hamas is saying, we accept it. We're ready to deal with Donald Trump. We're ready to talk to them, ready to uphold the ceasefire. What term you want to use for that? I have no idea.
25:38
And the argument that I mean for two years, you and I have been talking about the lack of action from the Muslim rulers. And you've argued, you know, on many podcasts now, many episodes that
Muslim rulers leverage
25:48
uh the Muslim rulers do have leverage. Uh but the argument could be that it was only after the Doha
25:55
moment. It was only after the bombing of Doha that that leverage was exhibited. they could use that
26:01
and utilize that leverage uh for for Gaza like you know was that the point where the ability to
26:10
maneuver became far better for these rulers than say the last two years absolutely not I I think
26:20
I think that it wasn't until I think that the case is not that it wasn't until the Qatar bombing they suddenly used the leverage I think the bombing in Qatar put them in such a panic mode they
26:29
decided to use some leverage leverage, meaning the leverage existed. They could have used it. They
26:35
knew Trump's weak point. They could have leveraged the investments. They could have leveraged the licenses that Eric Trump needs in order to establish his tools there. Saudi could have
26:44
said to Jared Kushner, "I'm not giving 50 billion for the EA sports while the genocide is ongoing." Saudi refused to do it. UAE could have said, "I'm not giving you the 1.2 trillion unless there's
26:53
a ceasefire." Rather, instead, it's a damning indictment. It's like there's Arabic saying the
26:59
apology is worse than the crime because what he's indicating is the leverage always existed. All you had to do was not you didn't need to go to war. You didn't need to bomb Israel. You didn't need
27:08
to give weapons to the Palestinians. All you had to do was say to Donald Trump, "Mr. Trump, your
27:14
personal projects are on the line if this genocide continues. We can't proceed with these investments unless you stop." They could have done it, but the only time they did it was when they were hurt.
27:24
The only time they did it is when it affected them. The only time they did it is when it touched
27:29
them. WhenQatar was bombed by the Israelis, that's when they went, "Oh, wait a minute. We've been playing this tightroppe game, you know, trying to keep the peace with the Americans, trying to not
27:37
to antagonize them, operated within the framework that the Americans allow us. But now we're being bombed." Even that didn't save us. And that's why when they suggested, oh my goodness, you know,
27:45
it's like what do we do now? And do we do security agreement? What's our future with the Americans?
27:50
Trump panicked without the cut necessarily threatening. Trump panicked and said, "Wait a minute. All my investments might be suddenly under threat." And Trump ends up turning against the
27:59
Israelis and making them apologize to the Kataris because he's worried about those investments. It's
28:04
it's such it's one of the most humiliating moments because it indicates you always had the leverage
28:11
to stop the genocide, but not the bravery and courage to do it. You had the leverage in order to
28:16
stop the genocide, but you weren't willing to use it until the bomb came to your door. Fallstine was
28:22
not enough to use that leverage. Genocide was not enough to use that leverage. I'm not compromising
28:28
my own house for the sake of Fallstine. But when it came to them anywhere, any anyway, it's like
28:33
that poem. First they came for the socialists and I said nothing. Then they came for the communists and then I said nothing. Then they came for the Jews and I said nothing. Then they came
28:40
for me and there was nobody to stand with me. It's that case. When they came for the Palestinians, I'm not using the leverage. When they did the genocide, I'll maybe use some media here and
28:48
there and that's it. Albeit Alazer deserves huge credit for the way that it shifted public opinion. I'm not going to deny that whatsoever. But what I mean is they didn't use the leverage of the
28:56
money and investments that they had. But when it came to my house to my door, when the fitna came through my door and blew my roof off, that's when I decided to use the leverage. It wasn't that the
29:07
bombing changed the game. It was that it was so frightening for the Qataris and the neighboring
29:13
American allies that they were galvanized into an action to save themselves. was not necessarily
29:20
and it wasn't even that they threatened the investments. Trump blinked by thinking they would threaten the investments and they sort of went along with it and now you see that the ceasefire
29:28
has been brought into place. That doesn't mean the ceasefire is going to last. But rather it shows Muslim leaders always had the ability to stop the genocide. But Falstine was not enough.
29:39
It was only nefi. When it hurts me, I'm going to do something. But if it's just the Palestinians,
29:45
well, I'll clap for you and I'll wave for you outside. But I'm not willing to deploy or risk my ties with the Americans for the sake of some um Can we discuss the role of the Saudis and UAE? Now
UAE and Saudi perspective
29:55
you alluded to to uh their position at the moment in regards to phase two and in regards to sort of
30:01
continuing with the redevelopment of of Gaza. Um, you know, again, over the last two years, you and
30:08
I have talked about the really awful position of in particular the Saudis, MBS as well as MBZ,
30:14
and how they played, you know, um, I'm an Arab Zionist role when it comes to when it comes to Gaza, when it comes to relationships with Israel. Um, I suppose my question is, um, um, why did they
30:26
consent to this ceasefire? because they were part of the uh the find they weren't censorship they
30:34
were part of that mechanism to to create uh consent uh that the that the Americans relied
30:41
upon to lean upon Donald Trump and I suppose the second question is what is their position now? I do you feel that the UAE in particular is now attempting to undermine this uh agreement uh in
30:54
order to serve I suppose its its ally Israel. First of all, UAE and Saudi did not consent to the ceasefire. If you look at the signatures of that agreement and the like, they did not choose
31:03
to be part of the guarantors. The guarantors are Turkey, Katar, and Egypt. UAE and Saudi refused
31:08
to put their signatures on that indicating they did not see themselves as mediators.
31:13
They did not want to be seen as mediators. And if they claimed to have been mediators, why didn't they put their signatures down as guarantors and take the credit for brokering
31:23
that ceasefire agreement? It's because they did not want the ceasefire and they were upset about the ceasefire before that ceasefire was declared. There was a report I think it was in Arabi or the
31:32
like which is a katar paper but bear in mind the kataris don't want to provoke the UEE at this moment in time. So for this article to emerge at this time indicates that the Qataris felt
31:42
that getting a ceasefire was more important than keeping the peace with the UAE which it's been trying to do for ages despite the animosity. This article suggested that the UAE and Saudi Arabia
31:52
were angry with Egypt and trying to pressure CC not to host the Sharmashia conference. They were
31:58
pressuring CC and telling him, "What on earth are you doing when we see that Hamas now is struggling
32:03
in Gaza? Let the Israelis continue doing what they're doing? Why are you so keen in order to
32:08
see this ceasefire take place in Gaza when we're so close to getting rid of Hamas and getting rid
32:13
of these Islamist trends that exist amongst the Palestinians?" They were angry with that ceasefire
32:19
which is why Netanyahu made a statement after the ceasefire in which he says that there are also Arab allies who are deeply upset and not happy with what's happening in Gaza itself indicating
32:28
the UAE and Saudi Arabia. The UAE's issue is that for them the ceasefire is disastrous because the
32:36
narrative that's being pushed is that Israel lost in Gaza won. The narrative being pushed is even
32:42
if is abandoned by every single Muslim ruler, Gaza was able to stand on its own because some
32:48
narratives say Allah subhana wa ta'ala was with them. Other narratives say that the resistance was too strong. Other narratives suggest that Israel is not as strong as perhaps it appears
32:57
and that the beneficiaries of such a ceasefire is that Erdogan is now representing the Palestinians.
33:02
The Qataris were able to leverage their influence with Trump in order to bring a ceasefire. the UAE and Saudi Arabia in that narrative find themselves sidelined and not only that they're concerned that
33:13
their populations which they've spent huge amounts of money to repress and huge amounts of resources
33:18
and bandwidth to prevent them from expressing any support for the Palestinians. when somebody wore
33:23
the kufi at a graduation in UAE and was deported. In Saudi Arabia, those going Omrah and go to
33:29
Mecca Medina to this day, if you're wearing a free Palestine jumper and the like, you're still being pulled aside and told not to wear it. Despite all of that bandwidth on a people who you repress so
33:40
much that you convince them not to do a single protest, not to boycott, not to go and express
33:45
solidarity for the Palestinians. Now, not only are you expending that bandwidth, but now the pressure
33:52
is harder because those people are saying despite all of the resources the government deployed, the Palestinians still came out on top. Yes, there was a genocide, yes, it's destroyed, but Trump is
34:01
now negotiating with Palestinians directly, Trump is now reigning in the Israelis. the Israelis are
34:07
not necessarily getting their way and the fallout is becoming more public between the Americans and the Israelis, indicating that the Palestinians still have greater leverage than perhaps they
34:17
had before albeit through very tragic tragic tragic means. I'm not in any way celebrating what
34:22
happened in the past 2 years at all. But that's the UAE and Saudi Arabia's problem. So for the UAE and Saudi now, they have joined the Israeli camp in which they're trying to say how can I ruin
34:32
this ceasefire? So the Saudis in UI have come out and said Donald Trump said that the Arab states
34:37
should uh put up the funds to rebuild Gaza. Now regardless of whether the Israelis destroyed it
34:42
or not as a Muslim and in the spirit of Islam, the relatives should be rushing to go and rebuild what
34:49
this violent oppressor and colonizer destroyed. If your neighbor's house or your brother's house is destroyed or the like, you would expect not the oppressors to go and rebuild it, but whereas my um
34:58
to rebuild it and you'd expect me and all these other guys like who are around here to come and rush and help you rebuild your house. That's the principle. The UAE and Saudi are so upset about
35:07
the ceasefire that they've come out openly and they've said, "Mr. Trump, we will not support your ceasefire plan if Hamas continue to stay in Gaza. If you don't allow the Israelis to achieve
35:17
their aim of eradicating all resistance in Gaza, then Mr. Trump, you can't count on a 1.2 trillion.
35:24
Think about it this way. They refused to leverage their wealth and investments to stop the genocide.
35:31
They offered the 1.2 trillion and 1 1.2 trillion from UAE, 1 trillion from Saudi. They offered it
35:37
to Trump without conditioning it on ending the genocide. But now they are conditioning their
35:42
investment on the condition that the genocide is allowed to continue. On the condition that the
35:48
resistance is completely broken, on the condition that Palestine is disarmed, on the condition that
35:53
Palestine is completely paralyzed and not able to resist the Israelis. Just think about that
35:58
for a second because the reality is that it blows your mind that the leverage was not used to stop the genocide. It's being used to preserve the consequences of the genocide that the Israelis
36:08
had wanted to achieve. And that's the dilemma now in that the greatest risk to this ceasefire is not the Israelis. The Israelis are struggling to push Donald Trump to allow them to go back to
36:18
war. The greatest risk is that when Donald Trump's ceasefire comes up against this idea of who will
36:24
rebuild Gaza, the Turks will say, "I'll rebuild it, but I don't have the money." The Kataris will
36:30
say, "We have some money." But when Trump realizes he doesn't have enough money to rebuild Gaza as part of his ceasefire plan and goes to the Saudis and the UAE and tells them guys rebuild it and
36:39
they say no JD Vance said there's no timeline on disarmament we are so angry at this that we will
36:45
not give you money until you truly disarm Hamas. We're leading Trump to say okay Israel I'll give
36:50
you another 6 months to bomb Gaza. Go for it. Go and slaughter again because that's the only way to
36:56
convince Saudi and the UAE to give the money to rebuild Gaza. That's the devastating and tragic
37:02
situation of the ceasefire at this moment in time that Trump is imposing it. Erdogan is influencing
37:08
it. Qatar is willing to fund it. Not that I'm saying the ceasefire is good. I'm saying the ceasefire at least is something the Israelis don't want. But the greatest challenge to the ceasefire
37:16
is not just the Israelis, it's the Muslims of UAE and Saudi Arabia. I'm going to come back to the
37:21
political analysis in a second and to Donald Trump in particular and his relationship with Israel, but I just want to ask you a question and it every word you said that just hurts like what is it
37:31
about these Arab Zionists of the Saudis and UAE? Why is it that they're so heartless? What is why
37:39
is their iman so detached from and so weak and so uh faulty? Well, like what what's going on there,
37:46
Sammy? To be honest, I cannot speak to what's in their hearts. What is interesting is that there
37:53
is a sense amongst those rulers that their people are backwards because they believe in Islam. And there is a terrible fear amongst these rulers that the desire of the Muslim population is not
38:05
individual nation states like Saudi, UAE and the like. But in the words of Muhammad bin Zed and and
38:11
he famously told Jake Sullivan or infamously told Jake Sullivan that if a man was to stand up in
38:16
Mecca and declare himself the Mahi 80% of my army would go and join him. The fear of these rulers
38:22
is that the people don't necessarily believe in the borders that were imposed on them. Their aim
38:28
is that these borders and these states are the results of the efforts of those who fought for liberation but that this is a transition period. This is to liberate the individual territories in
38:38
the pursuit of reuniting them once more into a grand call it whatever you want caliphate call it a united Muslim nation united states of Islam. This is why Tom Barak when he said that we don't
38:49
recognize the sites pico border. Israel can go as far as it wants. I always say this in that we Muslims we tend to say that Israel is bombing seven Muslim countries. Israel doesn't say it's
38:58
bombing seven Muslim countries. It says we're bombing one ummah. We're bombing one you know people. We're bombing the Muslims. We're bombing these Muslims who desire to see Jerusalem free.
39:08
Who believe in the second coming of Jesus. We don't want Jesus to come again. We believe that he's a false prophet. We don't want these Muslims to have their way. They don't see the borders the
39:16
way the Muslims see it. The Americans when they talk about the elections, their concern is not
39:21
democracy. Their concern is that if we allow democracy, these are a people who will vote for
39:26
Islam. These are people who in 1970s supported the reunification of Egypt, Syria and Iraq. These are
39:33
a people who even the secular leaders bura and Gaddafi they joined in 1974 Tunisia and Libya
39:40
together all be it for 24 hours because Algeria got furious and saw it as a challenge to their influence. These are a people who believe that these borders are temporary stop gaps. So the
39:49
reason the Americans don't support democracy in the region is because in the words of Macron the French president they will support regressive tendencies. They don't recognize the borders.
39:58
They don't believe in these nation states. A lot of money has to be spent to convince a Saudi that he's a Saudi as opposed to a Nezian Hijazzi who belongs to a grand Muslim global order. And I
40:08
think this is what terrifies these rulers. Bin Zed wants to rule. Bin Salman wants to rule. And they
40:13
believe that the greatest threat to their power is the population that desires to see a form of Islam
40:21
in governments governance because Islam and this is the point I want to stress because I know you have a lot of non-Muslim viewers as well. Islam is different from Christianity in that the trauma
40:32
of the war between Christians and the church doesn't exist in Islam. That trauma that that
40:37
battle the enlightenment as they call it when they liberated themselves as they say from the church's
40:43
violent and corrupt influence. Islam doesn't have that. Islam amongst the population is still seen
40:48
as something that is glorious, something that is just, something that is righteous. These rulers fear that the decentralization of Islam and this is the point I finish on. In Christianity,
40:58
you have the pope who dictates and the Christians nominally are supposed to follow. In Islam,
41:04
there is no pope. There is no priestly class. Even the scholarly class of today is being
41:09
criticized as something very Christian in that regard. The relationship is directly between the servant and Allah. There is no in between. The relationship is directly between you and God.
41:18
It's what Christianity first came as when it said the relation between you and God. And then people said, "No, we need a priest to interpret it." That doesn't exist in Islam. We don't have the priestly
41:26
class. Meaning that a royal family doesn't have a right to rule necessarily. The one who rules
41:32
is the one who upholds God's law. That could be a farmer or a peasant. It could be a carpenter like Jesus. It could be a shepherd like the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. It could be,
41:42
you know, Mus Alisam spent his time as a shepherd as well. It could be, you know, these very basic
41:47
individuals. I'm not saying basic in terms of denigrating them, but people with ordinary crafts, but because they uphold God's law, the community can elevate them to rulership. These are royal
41:57
families that believe that al and have the right to rule. Whereas Islam tells them, appoint the
42:03
best of you to rule regardless of where he comes from. Even if it's a former slave like the Mluks,
42:08
even if it is people who are nomadic tribes like the Turks, even if it is, you know, bedins of the
42:14
desert like the Arabs, as long as they're good, let them rule. That's terrifying to make justice
42:20
the foundation of rulership as opposed to a right based on blood or based on rulership and the like.
42:26
And that's why there's something terrifying about anything that indicates that Islam won. Like for
42:31
example, what's happening in Gaza that Muslims stood firm and they're still surviving despite a
42:37
genocide. It's terrifying when you have these Arab Spring elections and then you have suddenly all these people coming out and voting for parties that wave the flag of Islam and the like and
42:46
whatnot. That's terrifying for somebody in power knowing that if your people were free, they would never choose you. If your people were free, they wouldn't support your policies. If your people
42:56
were free, they would choose a million other people before they choose you. That's terrifying for any ruler. Let's uh turn to Donald Trump. Now, you've mentioned in some of your answers
Donald Trump and Israel rift
43:05
be that there is a rift developing between Donald Trump and Israel. And we saw that potential rift
43:12
two days ago when uh Israel uh once again broke the ceasefire and the Americans brought them back
43:18
to the uh to the original agreement and said that no such thing had happened. And as you said, some
43:23
news agencies even implied by the Americans to blame the Israelis for uh like a false flag or at
43:29
least blamed the Israelis for uh for creating the circumstances to break that ceasefire. I I just
43:35
want to understand that rift between because that that's fairly recent. I mean if we think about the
43:40
first ceasefire in January when when Donald Trump uh uh actually prior to Donald Trump becoming the
43:46
uh the his inauguration but during that period when you had the first ceasefire Donald Trump lost
43:53
um his you know his focus and after a while you know he was uh once again echoing the Israeli
44:01
talking points right so is there really a rift between Donald Trump and Israel in terms of like
44:08
ideology policy or is it something a little bit more superficial there? So, in Harris's memoirs
44:15
when she's reflecting on the elections that took place, she spends a lot of time talking about the role of Gaza in the elections, indicating that she went to Joe Biden and said to him that let's
44:26
show some empathy for the Palestinians because I think that will help me win the elections because it's becoming a key issue and I think it could swing the elections. And Biden essentially said,
44:34
I'm a Zionist. I'm not allowing you to do so. So Biden was very ideologically aligned with the Israelis. When the Israelis were struggling to ethnically cleanse Gaza, he established a
44:44
humanitarian corridor, told them, "Take seven days break. I'll establish a humanitarian corridor and I'll get the Palestinians out of northern Gaza by pushing them from the north into the south." It
44:53
wasn't it wasn't a ceasefire cuz I see some people saying Biden had a ceasefire in place. It wasn't a ceasefire. Biden said, "I'll help you ethnically cleanse. I'll make humanitarian corridor and you
45:01
can take the north. I'll pull them all out." The humanitarian pier was designed in order to send in Marines to help the Israelis when they were struggling to take Gaza city because, you know,
45:10
it was like playing whack-a-ole. They kept popping up and ambushing and the like and then eventually a storm ended up, you know, pushing the pay away. With Donald Trump, there's no ideology in his
45:20
support for the Zionists. I think with Donald Trump, as we saw in his speech at the United Nations, the one thing that matters the most to him is what Fox News says about him and what
45:27
his polls say about him. What are the base saying? with Donald Trump, he can see that there's a split
45:33
in the in his base. Financial Times reported three, four months ago, if I have the date correct, he told uh Jewish donors, this is what Financial Times reports, Jewish donors, that guys,
45:42
I need to tell you, my base is starting to hit the Israelis. I'm just giving you a heads up. And then he said two weeks after that, Middle East reported it and others where he made a statement off the
45:51
cuff where he said, "Israel used to control the Congress. I'm not sure they're able to control the Congress anymore." The three most watched podcasts in America in the top 10 at least amongst the top
46:01
10 podcasts is Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, and Joe Rogan. These are all that Donald Trump feels are uh the podcasts that he monitors. He responded to Tucker Carson indicating he watches
46:12
him. Candace very influence influential over the right-wing base and the like. She's beefing with everybody, Ted Cruz and all these others amongst the Republicans. And notice how Donald Trump is
46:20
not intervening in it, indicating he's not giving a judgment either way. Donald Trump is watching that and saying at the end of the day what matters to me is according to Donald Trump I
46:29
want to go down in history as greater than Obama. I want to go you remember when he said that Obama despite hating him he still walks with a bit of swag. There's a bit of envy there in that Obama is
46:38
still revered and celebrated despite being a drone king and killing the Afghans and slaughtering and
46:43
helping to reverse the Arab Spring and allowing the UAE and Saudi to get rid of all the democratic procedures like in those places and whatnot. That all happened under Obama's watch. But in any case,
46:53
Donald Trump is the kind of individual where he's not a Zionist per se. When Donald Trump saw the
46:59
chance that he might get a Nobel Peace Prize, he scrambled to impose a ceasefire in Gaza because he wanted a Nobel Peace Prize. Just consider that for a second. He didn't consider the details
47:08
of his 21point peace plan. The proof is what we talked about earlier. He didn't consider how this Gaza authority might work. That became irrelevant. He's now negotiating it with the Turks, indicating
47:18
it was just a draft paper that he just threw out there. He didn't talk about, you know, how he's going to rebuild Gaza. He's sort of just thrown it out there that the Arabs might rebuild it and
47:27
now he's negotiating how they might rebuild it at all. Indicating that for Donald Trump, the impetus
47:32
was not a genuine peace. It was I want to be the guy who the world says when the historians write,
47:38
I bring peace. I want the Nobel Peace Prize. The moment he imposed the ceasefire in Gaza, he's now brought Zalinski to the White House and told him, "Sign on a peace treaty with the Russians."
47:48
And the Ukrainians are saying, "Wait a minute. What do you mean sign it? And Trump is saying, "Just sign it. I'll talk to Putin. I'll get him to sign it, too." Indicating that for Donald Trump.
47:56
The details don't matter. He doesn't care if it's Israel or if it's Putin or if it's Zalinski or if it's Hamas. Donald Trump even on the White House website, he posts Hammers's response. Bear in
48:07
mind, this is prescribed in the US as a terrorist organization. The statement calls it a genocide.
48:12
And Donald Trump just posts it because he wants the headline. There's no consideration of what's actually in the text in and of itself indicating that Donald Trump is not necessarily beholden to
48:22
the rules that the Zionist imposed on presidents of the past. That doesn't mean he's an ally of the Palestinians or he cares. It means that before the Palestinians who had very limited influence
48:32
over the White House because the Zionists had huge influence over the White House. Now suddenly the Zionists don't have that influence that they once had before. They don't have the ability
48:41
to control in the way they once had before. Hammed bin Jam, the former Katar prime minister, famously said, "When the Arabs normalize with the Israelis, it's not because they like them.
48:49
It's because they believe that Israel is the key to the White House and the Congress. Win Israel, you win the White House." Trump is demonstrating that mantra might not be working anymore because
48:59
of the way the base is splitting and the like. This is not necessarily a praise of Donald Trump, if I'm being brutally honest. What it means is he's a wild card not only for the Palestinians,
49:09
but for the first time there's a president who's a wild card for the Israelis as well. And that's
49:14
why I think with Donald Trump, it's difficult to predict what he will do next. Because one of the greatest risks to the ceasefire is not necessarily the details. Israel cannot fight without an
49:24
imperial power behind it. It was established with the British. It managed to make gains in ' 67
49:30
because the Americans were behind it. 72 because the Americans were behind it. When the Americans felt pressured by King Fisel's oil embargo, the Americans made the Israelis withdraw and give
49:39
back land to Damascus and give back land to the Egyptians as well in the give the Sinai Peninsula back as well. Uh genocide is impossible without American money being spent, without American
49:51
weapons, without American support, without American diplomatic cover. It's impossible. If the Americans say the Israelis can't do it, they can't do it. The greatest threat to the ceasefire
49:58
is not the details of the ceasefire itself. So long as Trump wants to be seen as his peacemaker, the greatest threat is that Trump's attention span is very limited. Trump may focus so much
50:08
on Ukraine, he forgets about Gaza. He forgets about, you know, the the hype of peace suddenly
50:13
disappears. And so he just gets bored with it. And the Israelis go back and he says, "Oh well, these are people who've been fighting for thousands of years anyway. I was never going
50:20
to resolve it in that case." Which is why I think the Turks and the Kataris are lobbying and Egyptians are lobbying so heavily. It's very interesting this new triumpvirate of Egypt,
50:29
Turkey and Katar emerging. I don't know how far it can go, but in any case, this is why the Turks are trying to make sure it stays on Trump's table. They're trying to make sure Trump
50:37
doesn't lose interest. They're trying to make sure and say to Donald Trump, "Mr. President, you're the man of peace." Shabbash Sharif did it, but in a very exaggerated way when he said,
50:45
"You are the man who can bring you." This is the approach of these states that Donald Trump to
50:51
alienate him from the Zionists. He's not a Zionist ideologically. We can win Trump over by saying
50:56
that America's interest is not war. And this is true, by the way. America's interest in the region is not war. It's important to remember that the Muslim states don't have a problem with trading
51:06
with the Americans. They don't have a problem with exchanging with the Americans. The only problem they have with the Americans is the military bases, the bombing, the slaughter, the killing,
51:14
and the interference in regime changes and the like. Something that the right-wing is now saying, "We don't want to do that anymore. We don't want to do that as Americans." If that America first
51:23
trend wins over Donald Trump, practically that results in a healing of the relationship between
51:29
the Americans and those Middle East states, it's Israel that loses while the whole region and the Americans gain. And that's why I think that the rightwing has turned against the Israelis because
51:38
they've realized that if they pursue an America first policy and this is not an endorsement from my from my side. An America first policy means let's just all work within our interest and
51:46
let's all keep the peace and trade and the like and we won't interfere with each other which is what the Arab states want. Everybody gains except the Israelis. So the one who wants to ruin it for
51:56
everybody is the Israelis. And there's a growing concern amongst those around Trump amongst some of
52:01
them that Mr. president. The reality is you could make peace. The problem is not the Saudis or the
52:06
Qataris or the Turks. The problem is actually the Israelis. And it remains to be seen and I can't predict this. Neither can I. I spoke with Norman Finkelstein about it as well and he said
52:15
the same thing. We don't know what's going to happen next. But the idea being is that because he's such a wild card. Nobody for the first time nobody knows if the ceasefire will stand or fail.
52:25
We could say it could fail before but it depends on how much Trump is interested in it. And that's
52:30
why I think it's not that I'm endorsing Turkey as policy, but I think Erdogan has correctly
52:36
identified an opportunity to leverage Trump as a friend as opposed to an antagonist. I still think
52:43
he could have done that even if he had leveraged the influence that he had before. But in any case, I think in this next phase, Erdogan will be instrumental in pushing back against the Zionist
52:54
lobby. Whether he succeeds or not is different, but I think Palestinians have a vested interest in seeing Erdogan's voice louder in Trump's ear than the Israelis. Um, can I ask you about the
MAGA shift
53:03
the conversation you just had there about the base and about the shift in narrative, especially among
53:08
some MAGA supporters and we've talked about this on a number of occasions. Um, it leads me to think
53:14
that Apac is really losing control or at least it no longer has that solid control over the
53:20
narrative that it once believed it had. Um I mean there have been countless number of polls. There
53:26
was a New York Times poll which suggests today that there are more Americans that are favorable or sympathetic towards the Palestinians than there are Americans who are favorable and sympathetic
53:35
towards Israelis. Um the poll also suggested when it comes to under 40 year olds, I mean it's
53:40
unanimous now that Israel has a very poor standing when it comes to American public opinion. Now,
53:47
we would never have imagined that uh Palestinian pro Palestinian feeling would have ever permeated
53:55
um American society. So, something is happening there. Um uh is Apac losing uh the narrative war
54:03
and how are they fighting back? I think one of the things that is worth noting about America
54:09
having been here for a while and seen it is that the Americans have always been amanable to
54:15
listening to different ideas. They have a society where they have the freedom of speech and they're
54:20
willing to entertain and debate and listen to new ideas. The problem was never that the Americans
54:26
had a natural aversion to the Palestinian cause. is that the Zionists spent so much money putting
54:32
barriers between that voice and the Americans and imposing filters between the Palestinian voice and the Americans. Because what we realize with social media and the decentralization of
54:41
information is that you put a girl called Samantha in Los Angeles and you put her in direct contact
54:47
with somebody in Gaza through Tik Tok where she sees the image directly. When Samantha sees it
54:53
without filters and when she sees it without the lobby imposing those filters, what happened to
54:59
Samantha? Her opinion completely flipped. So she was never averse to the righteous cause of the
55:05
Palestinians. She was never averse to the cause of justice. She was just not allowed to hear it
55:11
by Apac and by the Zionists. She was never allowed to hear it by the Zionist allies. and whatever she
55:17
heard of the Palestinians was the result of a five or six filters that that information had
55:22
passed through that eventually resulted to her over here. That's the extraordinary thing because it reinforces the idea of fra where Allah subh or God when he creates human beings puts that natural
55:33
affinity for justice in the people. When you think about it, what made American public opinion shift? No one brought an army and coerced them into changing their opinions. No one held a gun to
55:41
Candace Owens's head or to Tucker Carlson's head to make them say the things that they're saying against scanism. Now, no one put a head to Dave Smith's head, you know, and told him he needs to,
55:50
you know, change his, you know, ideas and policies or the like. I noticed some people used the video
55:55
of mine in Koala Lumpur almost to say to Dave Smith, "Your views are wrong and look how people like Sammy are celebrating." My point is not that anyone forced Dave Smith. My point is in that
56:04
video is that because we delivered the truth as it was and because we showed what was happening,
56:09
because we screamed about it, when Dave Smith saw it, his heart naturally inclined towards justice.
56:15
When Candace Owens saw it, her heart naturally inclined towards justice. When Tucker Carson saw it, their hearts naturally inclined towards justice. Ted Cruz can't say anything because
56:24
of all of the Apac money that comes towards him. But these other souls that are free literally and
56:29
debating the issues as they go along, you don't need to agree with everything they say. But that justice flipped it. That's the shift in public opinion. And as a result of the shift in public
56:38
opinion, it's now being translated politically where a candidate for Massachusetts comes out last week and says, "I've returned every money that I've collected from Apac and I've returned it
56:47
and I'm no longer taking any money from Apac." Not necessarily because he cares about the Palestinians. He's aware that Zes is a political liability that might make him lose the election.
56:57
A representative in North Carolina, I think a congresswoman, she came out and she said, "I will not take any donations for APEC, indicating the shift in public opinion in in North Carolina means
57:07
that if I'm seen to be too close to the Israelis, I will lose." We've now seen that Marjorie Taylor Green, who's coming out and saying that Israel has to register as a foreign agent, and Republicans in
57:17
Congress now watching her seat in the midterms to see if she keeps her seat. If she keeps hers,
57:23
they will say, "Wait a minute, you can survive even after defying Zionism." Then maybe we don't need to keep following this Zionist babysitter who follows us. As Thomas Messi stated in that Tucker
57:32
Carlson interview, Ape appoints a babysitter for the Congress, Republican congressman to
57:37
ensure they vote Israel first instead of America first. We're seeing Manny now leading in the polls
57:42
over Cuomo and Cuomo being lambasted by his own supporters for talking too much about Israel,
57:48
for talking too much about what's happening in Gaza as opposed to Mamani who's talking about New York. And Menni's America first policy, I call it America first where he talks about New York and
57:58
the rents in New York means that Marjorie Taylor Green tweets today and says why would anybody go and vote for Cuomo? She's not endorsing Manny. She says, "Why would you vote for Cuomo who's
58:07
not interested in New York, who's not focused on America first itself?" The point being is that
58:13
that shift in public opinion means that Omar Fat in Minneapolis in in Minnesota running for mayor,
58:19
Tim Walsh refuses to recognize him. Ilhan Omar ends up endorsing him, indicating the Democrat party is badly in disarray. Cuomo is being supported by the party establishment after
58:29
the party base voted for Manny. You can see these schisms everywhere. So I think what the Zionists
58:34
are terrified of now is despite the shift in public opinion, the Zionists haven't lost the
58:40
seat yet. You'll remember that Jamal Bowman and Cory Bush when they decided that they were worried
58:45
about the shift in public opinion and they went from supporting the Iron Dome or Jamal Bowman supported the Iron Dome. Then thought just to keep the peace, let me hold the stick from the middle,
58:52
let me support arms to Israel while saying we need a ceasefire. The Zionist, they punished him. They said we're going to topple you. Why? Because the fact you said ceasefire indicates you
59:01
doubt our power. and they toppled Jamal Bowman. But after Harris lost as a result of Gaza by her
59:06
own admission that she lost because the if she she says if I change my position on Gaza I might have won the election. That's her view. Gaza brought down Harris. The Zionists are keen to
59:16
ensure that the reason Harris lost remains a gray area. But we need to make sure no one loses in
59:22
the midterms because they supported Zionism. Now Apac is publishing all these AI videos. How Israel
59:28
benefits America. The Zionists are terrified that in the midterm elections, Marjorie Taylor
59:33
Green will keep her seat. They are terrified that in Chicago, this lady who's running against the
59:39
Congress, this I think her name is Koreshi or the like. She's running against they're worried that she will win after having opposed Zionism. They're worried Omar Fat will become mayor.
59:47
They're worried that Abdman is in Michigan is running up against the Zionist candidate. He's now raised more money than her. He's now leading her in the polls. that if Abdman is wins in Michigan,
59:57
they will say that Michigan is permanently lost if you support the Zionist. They are terrified
1:00:02
that if Marjgerie keeps her seat and Thomas Messi keeps his seat, that other Republicans will come out against the Zionist because it's no longer a political asset in the way that it used to
1:00:11
be. And if in the midterm elections there's five heavyweight seats that are won because they oppose
1:00:17
the Zionists on the Democrats and the Republicans, the Zionists are terrified that the headline will
1:00:23
be Zionism is why they lost the election. So the presidency in Donald Trump will say in order
1:00:28
to change the constitution and win another term and rule for a third term if that's what Trump's intentions are. Not that I'm saying I support it. I need to distance from Israel because I need the
1:00:38
base on board and the base hate the Israelis. Being anti-Zionism is now a political asset.
1:00:43
The Zionists are terrified that in with space of two years their influence could crumble and in the
1:00:49
next two years Zionism may be something that you never mention because if you do you will lose an election. So Sammy, are you saying that in Georgia you would ask and you would request and you would
1:01:01
suggest to Muslims that they should vote for Marjgerie Taylor Green? It's not my place to tell the Americans how to vote at all and I'm going to decline to answer whether they should vote for
1:01:10
this person or this person. That's an issue for the Americans and I respect the American right to choose who they decide to vote for or not. I think what I can say is that according to the Zionists,
1:01:20
the worst case scenario that can happen in the midterm elections is that Americans vote America first instead of Israel first. And by America first, I think what the Zionists are really
1:01:29
concerned about is that America first is not just Republicans, it's also Democrats. You think about
1:01:34
it, for example, Mamani, Manni, according to the Zionist is an America first candidate. Cuomo is an Israel first candidate which is why the Zionist lobby and those who support the
1:01:43
Zionist are supporting Cuomo against the America first candidate who is Mamdani. The Zionists are
1:01:48
concerned that whereby their lobby has been able to establish a situation whereby Biden can ignore
1:01:54
people becoming bankrupt over medical bills and in give 14 billion not to those struggling with
1:01:59
medical bills but to Israel instead. The Zionists are worried that in the midterm elections, Americans might actually vote for candidates who will vote for America first, whereby 14 billion
1:02:10
doesn't get given to the Israelis to commit genocide. It gets given to people to help them rel to help with relief on their medical bills to ensure they get healthcare treatment.
1:02:18
What the Zionists are concerned about is that Marjgery Taylor Green who came out against the Zionist to say that we should focus on American homelessness, we should focus on American medical
1:02:28
issues, we should focus on American housing and these issues leading her to resonate with America
1:02:34
first mamani showing that it transcends party lines. It's not only Democrat and Republicans.
1:02:40
The Zionists are concerned that Marjgery Taylor Green's America first message will resonate far
1:02:45
more deeply than the Israel first message the APC are spreading with these AI videos when they're trying to assert why Israel is so valuable to the Americans. What the Zionists are concerned about
1:02:56
is that when Trump sees that Marjorie Taylor Green wins her seat because she asserts America first
1:03:01
over Israel first, that Mamani becomes mayor of New York because he asserted America first
1:03:06
over Israel first. that Omar Fat becomes mayor of Minnesota because he asserted America first over
1:03:12
Israel first that Abdman is said in Michigan wins his seat as wins his seat in the Senate because he
1:03:18
argues for America first instead of Israel first even though he's a Democrat. When the isionists
1:03:23
are concerned that when when Trump sees or the president sees that the common denominator is not
1:03:28
Republican, Democrat, the common denominator is America first, it would lead a president who puts
1:03:34
his own interests first to pursue America first over Israel first. You remember when Donald Trump
1:03:39
said about when he asked Miriam Aden and said, "Do you love Israel more or America more?" And that was almost like a dig at Miriam Aden because he was saying publicly to the American people that
1:03:49
when she gave me the money, I was wrestling with her. She was saying you have to be Israel first and I was telling her you need to be America first indicating there is a rift between Aden
1:03:59
and between Donald Trump and he said that in the Knesset itself almost like a subliminal message to the Israelis that listen you need to find a way to align Israel first with America first. It's
1:04:09
not for me to to comment on who people should vote for or not. That's as a as somebody who's not American, that's not for me to say. What I can say is that the midterm elections will not
1:04:18
be about Republicans versus Democrats. It will be America first versus Israel first. The Israel
1:04:24
first movement believes it's in an existential crisis. This is the first midterm elections where
1:04:30
candidates might actually lose because they supported Israel over America. And that's why
1:04:36
candidates are scrambling to distance themselves from Israel first. It's why that candidate for Massachusetts is returning Apac money. It's why the North Carolina representative is saying,
1:04:44
"I'm not going to take Apac money anymore." It's why you have people coming out openly and saying, "I'm not the Apac candidate. Vote for me. You have Apac tracker now listing all of these candidates
1:04:53
who are taking money from Apac." It's why Hakee Jeff when he went on a leftwing podcast. She said, "I, as a Democrat, I'm so disgusted that I don't understand why you can't support somebody like
1:05:03
Manny or support the party base and that you're tied up with regards to Israel first. The base wants a ceasefire. You insist on a genocide." And Hakeim Jeffrey says it's more complicated.
1:05:12
We can't just be a oneisssue voter indicating he's trapped between Israel first and America first and
1:05:18
Americans are revoling against Israel first. This America first movement is not a MAGA movement.
1:05:23
It's a Republican and Democrat movement where the base now that public opinion has shifted are now saying we're Americans. Let's deal with our own issues first. We don't need to enter these wars
1:05:33
for other countries that don't bring any benefit for us. The reality is everybody wants to live in peace, but foreign entities are lobbying us to do their fighting for them. And that's why I think in
1:05:42
these midterm elections, it's not clear who will win, Israel first or America first. And that's why
1:05:48
it depends whether Marjorie Taylor Green, America first, wins or the candidate Apac put against her,
1:05:54
Israel first wins. It's whether Manny, America first, wins, or Cuomo, Israel first wins. That's
1:06:01
the battle for the soul of America that is taking place. and the White House will be watching very carefully how those midterms take place because Trump has yet to comment on Marjorie Taylor Green
1:06:11
and these other people's comments with regards to their America first indicating Trump is watching to see who wins Israel first or America first before he acts accordingly. So in a sense you
1:06:22
are saying that Muslim Americans Gaza conscious Americans should not be voting on party lines
1:06:28
here. They should be really voting against Israel first candidates. I'm saying that every citizen of
1:06:35
any country who loves his country, who loves her country, who wants to see the benefit of
1:06:40
their country, who wants to help the poor in their country, who wants to help those struggling in their country, who wants to tackle homelessness, unemployment, and medical bills and
1:06:49
the like. Anybody who loves their country will vote for the one who puts their country first
1:06:55
and not a foreign country first. That they will vote America first, not Israel first itself.
1:07:01
It's not that I'm saying that they should vote on party lines. Whichever party candidate pushes
1:07:06
the line that you should focus on the woes and ills of the city that you live in. Homelessness
1:07:12
in LA. We didn't go to Beverly Hills. I should have shown you Beverly Hills itself. You'll see all these tents that are in these parking areas and they're not hippies. They're homeless people
1:07:20
that you could have the money to resolve it, but you're giving it to Zionists and the like who are insisting on Israel first. It's that anybody and any American citizen regardless of their faith or
1:07:31
religion has the fra in their hearts of justice first, justice for all for everybody whether they
1:07:37
are white, black, Muslim, Jewish and which is why you're seeing that Jews in New York are voting
1:07:42
for Mamani because they see the message of justice that he is promoting with regards to America first
1:07:48
itself. It's why you see Muslims fundraising for Marjorie Taylor Green on the other side, saying that we believe she has the interest of America first, the interest of our locality and
1:07:57
our area first, and also the interest of humanity in the sense of calling for a ceasefire in Gaza
1:08:02
and saying we shouldn't support genocide. This is not an election on party lines. The midterm elections are not Democrats versus Republicans. The midterm elections will be Israel first versus
1:08:12
America first. And it's in the interest of Muslim Americans that America first wins over
1:08:18
Israel first. Sami, I want to circle back to uh the conversation we had about the Muslim rulers
Muslims ideological problem?
1:08:23
and the people. And u you you uh almost strike you often do strike a very optimistic um view
1:08:31
about uh the Muslim peoples and where they are at the moment. But there may be some who claim that
1:08:38
um ideologically at least there's a failing here. like why is it that we haven't um come together
1:08:45
as an ummah? Why is it that we haven't acted uh on Gaza? Why is it that we haven't mobilized?
1:08:51
You know, there was a someone on my podcast who said that there hasn't been really a substantial demonstration like we've had in the West in so many of these Muslim countries. Like is
1:09:00
the problem in the Muslim um an ideological one in your mind? I don't think the problem in the
1:09:06
um is an ide ideological one at all. I actually think you go anywhere in the Muslim world and even
1:09:11
uh when you call the Muslim world people tend to think Middle East etc. But Muslim world what I mean is I mean even Muslims who live in the west you go and you ask them what is the ideal
1:09:21
state and what does it look like? They tell you it is a state that is governed by justice that Islam calls for. It's the one that looks after the poor, one that looks after neighbors,
1:09:30
one in which you're able to do business freely, one in which oppression is punished, and one in which justice is upheld. When the ruler transgresses, there are people who keep him in
1:09:39
check. Everybody's in agreement in this. I think that when you go to the Muslim world, one of the issues that the a lot of the western states had with the Arab Spring was it was why is there an
1:09:48
overwhelming majority that wants to see Islam in some form in power? Why is that the primary
1:09:55
consideration when people are voting? Why don't they consider, you know, secular ideas? And it's
1:10:00
because for them, they saw religion as separate from politics. Whereas the Muslim world sees in
1:10:05
Islam something inherently just. That Islam is a system of governance. that it's something that
1:10:10
brings about all of that prosperity that you desire. I think that when we look at the Muslim
1:10:16
world's stance with regards to Gaza and the like. The only reason I'm always hesitant to lambast
1:10:23
the Arabs in particular where most of the it's directed towards because in Bangladesh they came out in in their hundreds of thousands. May Allah bless them. You know they lovestin even as their
1:10:32
country is going through their own problems. In Pakistan we saw the same thing as well. Although Pakistan government seems to be cracking down on some solidarity with Palestine in recent times,
1:10:42
I think that sometimes the maxim of a Muslim in my opinion and this is a political maxim for me
1:10:49
is is that one has to always love his ummah. There is always in the um and the one who says that the
1:10:56
um is ruined, they're the ones who are who who are ruined. So I'm very wary of that hadith when we're talking about our people, people who believe in Muhammad. I don't mean just the Arabs. I
1:11:05
mean anybody whether they're English, American, Bengali, Australian, whatever. We're brothers.
1:11:10
Muslim Muslim. If we follow that strand that love your ummah, then let me try and understand why my
1:11:16
brother or sister is struggling to come out onto the streets. I don't want to assume that they hate fallstine because I don't think they do. I remember bumping into some Imiratis. I won't
1:11:24
say which ones cuz I don't want to get them in trouble. And I remember I was a bit tired that day and perhaps I lacked some of the diplomacy in the way that I spoke. So I said these exact words.
1:11:33
I said, "Oh, you're from the Emirates. I want to understand like, do you emirates not care about Fostin? Like, have you become so heartless?" And the person said to me, "You should know better,
1:11:41
Sei, like you of all people. You know what it's like to live in these places?" And they were said to me that one day they were sitting with a group of friends whispering about Gaza because worried
1:11:50
that somebody would overhear and the wind must have blown a bathroom door shut and everybody went, "Oh, you know, was there somebody listening to us or watching us?" If I go on the p on on the
1:12:00
basis that the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam loves his ummah. I love the prophetam so I love my um let me try and understand it. The people who spoke out got put into prison. They
1:12:10
were tortured, electrocuted and some of them killed and there was no recourse to justice
1:12:15
for that. That strikes fear that that's perfectly fine. I that that's perfectly legitimate response
1:12:20
is in what I'm saying. I remember sitting once with my father in Istanbul. I know anecdotes are bad form but it's something that caused me to think quite deeply. So it was me and my father
1:12:29
and one of the Syrian opposition figures. This was before Bashar Assad was toppled. So my father was
1:12:35
remarking. We were sitting in I think Galata or somewhere. My father remarks to the Syrian opposition guy. In front of my father I tend to be quiet. I just listen. Many people laugh when they
1:12:44
see me with my parents. They're like he talks a lot on podcast in front of his parents. He barely says a word. But uh so my father said uh to the guy Semi is optimistic about the possibilities of
1:12:52
this um in the future. And the Syrian opposition guy said that's because Semi's never been thrown in prison, had cables put on him, been electrocuted and smacked and beaten by a Jean
1:13:01
army. When that happens to him, let's see if he says the same thing when he comes out. Which was something legitimate to say. I think sometimes in our desperate desire to see the um do something.
1:13:12
We tend to underestimate the challenges that the um is facing. You're not up against a regime or
1:13:17
one individual. You're up against bullets. You're up against, you know, torture. You're up against
1:13:23
people who get who die in prison. I think people say now that he's dead in prison. He was thrown
1:13:30
into prison in 2017 or 2018 for tweeting that when you give authority to your son,
1:13:36
give it gradually because if you give it all in one go, he'll bring the house burning down. This is a Saudi. This is Saudi. And of course, he was mentioning Muhammad bin Salman. So he disappeared,
1:13:45
you know, he was arrested and disappeared. And because he wears a beard and his Muslim amnesty doesn't pay much attention to him. Neither do Human Rights Watch. It's mainly liberals,
1:13:53
you know, that that they focus on. He's no one knows where he is. And everybody now has presumed
1:13:58
him to be dead. Salman has a tweet where he says, you know, I I pray that Allah brings
1:14:04
uh Allah, you know, brings uh the hearts of the Muslims back together. The implicit reference
1:14:10
was towards during the blockade in Saudi Arabia. He's still in prison. You know, you interviewed his son. He's still in prison occasionally in solitary confinement as well or maybe in solitary
1:14:18
confinement and and the like. When that happens to people who you thought were untouchable, imagine how the ordinary person must feel. Salman used to sit with the um used to sit with
1:14:28
the princes. Salman was once almost untouchable. There is an incident once in 2008 2009 I think
1:14:34
if I remember correctly where he criticized Salman when he was prince of Riyad. Prince Salman Salman.
1:14:41
Salman criticized Prince. Prince aliz was so worried about the impact on public opinion that he
1:14:47
invited Salman put on a feast for him and sat with him and said yes you've misunderstood my policy
1:14:52
and he had to explain himself to Salman to say to him you know now a prince felt he had to do that
1:15:00
because of a concern of what Sam might do to him indicating Oda had weight and had power. If you're
1:15:06
an ordinary Saudi or you're an ordinary Imali I'm not making excuses. is I'm saying let's understand
1:15:11
our beloved brother and sister who's struggling to come out. If with all of those ties to the royal
1:15:18
family can just be picked up and thrown in. What about somebody like an ordinary person? I was in
1:15:23
Dallas, Texas with somebody and I won't name who it was who left Saudi in 2021 or something like
1:15:30
that and is based in Dallas and whatever and doing well for himself. Not Saudi but grew up in Saudi,
1:15:36
born and raised in Saudi and the like. So we're sitting and I made a passing comment and I said really really bin Salman could be a great leader but I don't understand why his
1:15:45
priority is Jennifer Lopez and concerts as opposed to building a nation on its correct
1:15:50
identity and leading the um in that regard and what I don't understand I said to him is how do
1:15:57
you know these Saudi youth who go to the concerts like how do they accept it for themselves you know
1:16:02
in the sense of you see and he said to me and and he said to me Sammy a lot of those who go aren't
1:16:08
going because they want to enjoy the concerts. They're so terrified at what might happen to them
1:16:13
if they don't go that maybe oh you didn't it was right it was 5 minutes from you why didn't you go
1:16:19
are you are you a bit you know extreme are you a bit oh we need to interrogate this person we
1:16:24
need to grab them he said I have people ended up leaving Saudi Arabia because in this age silence
1:16:30
is not enough you have to publicly celebrate the crown prince or the like if you live in an environment like that in which it's easy for we're in California and we're talking about gaz
1:16:40
talking about uh the US, talking about you know Europe, talking about shift in public opinion freely. The idea that somebody could barge into that door, grab us both and make us disappear
1:16:49
is something that we think is ludicrous. We are privileged in in our rights that Allah subhana wa ta'ala has afforded us in allowing us to speak out. I'm not making excuses. I'm saying let's put
1:16:59
yourself in that situation. Bin Salman does not allow even a whiff of opposition. Turk Jasser Turk
1:17:05
Jaser was an ordinary Saudi individual who tweeted anonymously criticizing the policies of the Saudi
1:17:11
crown prince because he loves his country and he loves Saudi Arabia and he believes it's going down a dark path. The Saudi crown prince could not figure out who is behind the Twitter account. So
1:17:20
he hires two spies at Twitter in the US and sends them to the US and they get hired by Twitter and
1:17:26
they go and their job is to find out who is behind this account that's run by Turk Jer. They find out
1:17:32
their account name. They find out the name of the person. Bin Salman has the guy's address. They go, they grab the guy and two months, two months ago, they executed him for tweets that he imposed, an
1:17:42
ordinary person. The point being is that you look at, for example, like what happened in Katar with
1:17:47
the lawyer that we mentioned about before, the one who who said, "Why am I being stripped of my right to vote?" And now he's languishing in prison in life imprisonment. You look at the UAE, if you're
1:17:55
a citizen, you disappear. If you're not, you get deported for even mentioning solidarity with the Palestinians. If you're in that position then the ease with which we talk about those the ideas that
1:18:06
we talk about here that doesn't exist. I don't I don't think I I don't know what I would say if
1:18:12
I was in that particular situation. I'm aware of how Allah has blessed us that we don't live under these particular regimes in and of themselves. Having said that has a theory. So growing up I I
1:18:25
always used to ask myself why does Allahh destroy Muslim nations that had a mosque on every corner
1:18:32
and whereaw was full and they had their version of a reading beautiful whatever recitation and
1:18:38
the like. And before I actually get to this point I give you another example. Imagine you're an imam in the UAE. So I bumped into a couple of people who since have left the UAE. So they were given
1:18:50
examples for example like when you give a they say uh after normalization they told the imams that
1:18:57
the should be about being a dutiful neighbor and the imam would have to read and there was certain
1:19:04
phrases that alluded to normalization and if you skipped it you were in trouble. You had to say those phrases when UAE which is trying to split Yemen into two you know a few soldiers were killed
1:19:15
in Yemen. So the government wanted to uh push the narrative that what they're doing is Islamically
1:19:23
legitimate in Yemen. What UAE is doing in killing Yemenes and trying to split the country. So all
1:19:28
ims that day had to give the on that they are by pursuing what UAE is doing in Yemen whereby it
1:19:37
brings the Israelis to set up a base in the like. If you don't do it, you vanish as an imam. So what
1:19:43
do you do in that situation? you know as an im in terms of reading it. But going back to the point now has a theory. So I I used to think why did Allah destroy Muslim nations when there was
1:19:53
a mosque on every corner and you know was full and all these wonderful you know that we parade around
1:20:00
the Muslim world you know they were reading in beautiful melodic voices and the like. Why did Allah destroy when people are standing in their hundreds and thousands in and lights you know on
1:20:10
the street? Kaldun argues that a state is built on two foundations. A ruler and the people and
1:20:16
the ruler by nature always transgresses. It's the nature of human being. Nothing fills their belly.
1:20:22
The duty of the ruler is to uphold justice. But the duty of the people is to keep the ruler in check. When these two are in perfect balance, cuz Allah says strikes the balance. When these
1:20:33
two are in balance, when the ruler transgresses, the people fix it. When the people go overboard, the ruler fixes it. It's a it's a a relationship where there's a constant waving back and forth.
1:20:43
The state thrives because of this perfect balance between the two. But he says the reason Allah
1:20:49
destroys a ruler and the people is because when the ruler transgresses and the people don't do anything, then the oppression gets worse. The people have failed to uphold their obligation
1:20:58
against oppression. And so Allah subhanaa tala results in the destruction of the entire nation
1:21:03
because the people failed to the ruler failed to uphold justice but the people failed to keep the ruler in check and to embark and to sacrifice for the sake of justice itself. And that's why
1:21:13
I don't think there's any excuse for the Muslim world to be quiet. There is no excuse for them
1:21:18
to not boycott. There's no excuse for them not to even mention a protest and the like. And I won't
1:21:26
say who said it, but after South Africa took the case to the ICJ, there was a campaign to lobby for
1:21:33
Muslim support for the ICJ case. And this campaign group were told by Muslim rulers, we don't do
1:21:40
anything the Americans don't allow us to do. So on your own, like Latin American countries, they can
1:21:45
join you, but we Muslim states won't join you in this ICJ case. We don't want to offend Americans. We don't want to offend the Israelis. what stopped the people from supporting those ICJ cases and the
1:21:55
like and that's why I think that when Aliovich one of the most greatest influences on my own thinking
1:22:01
today Aliovich the Bosnian he he interpreted the hadith about you get the rulers that you deserve
1:22:09
Ali said this doesn't mean that when bin Salman is partying in the Maldes and brings bikini beaches
1:22:15
that you would go to those bikini beaches said the reason the prophet wasallam was correct in
1:22:20
this hadith is that you get what the rule is you deserve. Because if you're not willing to stand
1:22:26
up for what's right and you're not willing to sacrifice for what's right, you will get somebody who doesn't give a damn what's right. If you as a people are unwilling to stand up for truth
1:22:36
and justice, you will get somebody who disregards it completely because you're not keeping that in
1:22:41
check. Henceforth, you get the rulers you deserve even if you believe yourself pious. And the ruler
1:22:46
is somebody who is vicious in and of themselves. And that's why the reality is that and and we said
1:22:51
this in one podcast and I finish on this point but there's no harm in repeating it. Remember for remembrance benefits you when you look at what made the genocide happen. Is America doing
1:23:02
anything unusual in its support for the Israelis? No. They're doing everything exactly the same. Is Europe doing anything unusual? No. They've always supported the Israelis. So the X side
1:23:11
of the equation is perfectly fine. The problem is the other side of the equation. Before you
1:23:16
had King Fisel's oil embargo, pressure from the Arab states, etc., whatnot. Now you don't have X
1:23:21
equals Y. You have X equals 1 over Y because the Y suddenly half of it is now belongs to X. They're
1:23:27
supporting the Israelis in that regard. They're not providing that wall, you know, that sort of balance, you know, on to prevent the genocide in and of itself to fix the equation. Alhamdulillah,
1:23:37
the X is changing as a result of public opinion. But the primary impact should be on getting the Y back up. How do you get these rulers? And the reality is that CC now and this is not a praise
1:23:46
of Cece. CC now under the pressure from UAE and Saudi Arabia because he's being bullied by them is entertaining Turkey and because he realizes this genocide might be an existential threat on the
1:23:55
Egyptians. But and this is the point I really finish on. But my question not just for the
1:24:01
to expand it to the Muslim world if we encompass even the western states. Jalal, have you seen any
1:24:06
demonstration not a protest just a call for action in front of the Saudi embassy in Washington?
1:24:14
Have you seen it in front of the Saudi embassy in London or in Paris or anywhere? It's not
1:24:19
just an issue in terms of the citizens of the Muslim world. But also imams will tell you, I'm not saying anything cuz I want to go. The Prophet Muhammad said that the bricks
1:24:27
of the blood of the Muslim is dearer than the bricks of the Kaa. But an imam will tell you, I need to tone down on the blood of the Muslim because I want to see the bricks of the Kaa.
1:24:35
He's flipped the hadith completely. What stops an imam going in front of the Saudi embassy and saying we call on the royal his royal highness the crown prince Muhammad bin Salman
1:24:47
Mr. uh crown prince we ask you to take a firmer stance and put pressure you know people filming but not necessarily saying bin Salman is a traitor but sort of saying you know yeah bin Salman like
1:24:57
move and he feels the pressure because Saudis are saying yeah wait a minute yes am these guys aren't attacking you these guys are saying you know go and do something and the like it's not this
1:25:06
illness doesn't exist just in the citizens of the Muslim world it exists in us as well Muslims who
1:25:12
live here in the west where we have that privilege going forward and this is the point I finish on
1:25:17
fear is paralyzing like it genuinely does. And this is why I love the story of I love it. I love
1:25:24
it because he's not ashamed to admit that he's scared. But what I love even more than that is
1:25:30
that even when he admits he's scared when Allah reassures him, I am with you. That's enough for
1:25:37
Mus Alisam to move. I wonder if it's enough for the Muslim world to move because as it stands,
1:25:43
I don't think it is at the moment. I have one last question for you, Sami. if you permit me. Um uh on my journey here in California, I met a Muslim parent and she said to me that
Sense of Mission
1:25:54
um for a long time we as a Muslim community used to care about uh bringing our kids up so that
1:26:00
they remain Islamic and and they they're prevented from the exposure to uh unislamic values. Uh but
1:26:08
now we've come to a stage where we're thinking uh obviously things have got to be more than that. We
1:26:13
want our children to grow up to be change makers. We want them to be to have a sense of mission. We want them to be the change for the future. Not just people who are surviving uh in a very sort
1:26:23
of defensive way. What advice would you give to to to all Muslims, but to Muslim parents, you know,
1:26:30
alhamdulillah, I think um you know, forgive me for saying this, but you have a sense of mission and it seems like uh your mom and dad and I think it's it's really down to your parents, but your
1:26:39
mom and dad has given you this sense of mission. What advice would you give to a Muslim parent to
1:26:45
not just make their children survive um in in this world but actually become those change makers that
1:26:52
we require uh inshallah tala to further the cause of our ummah. This is a difficult question to
1:26:59
address because there are two premises that need to be challenged here. The first is you talk about
1:27:07
how do you prepare them for a future on the basis that future is guaranteed by Allah subhana wa
1:27:12
tala that you're going to live to 60 65 and 70 and whereas the prophet wasallam said conduct yourself
1:27:17
as if you will die tomorrow we have many friends who die young and if you're always in a state of
1:27:26
preparing for the future as parents like to put it then what about today people think that the
1:27:32
mission eventually comes The thing that and and I say it openly, you know, my mother was laughing
1:27:39
in the room the other day. She said, "Somebody asked me, how did I raise you?" So, she was like,
1:27:45
"When I remember the teenage years, you know, like the grief that you know, you you gave me." I wasn't a particularly bad individual. I wasn't I don't want anybody to get that sha in that regard.
1:27:54
But in the context of she used to push me next to my dad, you know, to say take him with you where you go. Let him, you know, learn and see. And I hated it, you know, in the sense of you sit there
1:28:04
silently watching my father talk with his friends about all these different I didn't appreciate the value of it until like much much later. But the one thing that I did notice was that is that my
1:28:14
father never made me feel like I was waiting for something. My father was very adamant that things
1:28:20
had to be done now. Go and do this now. Go and read this now. Go and help this person now. Go and
1:28:26
volunteer in this now. Go and do this now. There was a sense of you think you're going to be alive
1:28:31
tomorrow and you're guaranteed. Did Allah give you a in that regard? And my dad wasn't always the gentlest in terms of I don't mean he hit he never hit us but as in like he wasn't always jealous in
1:28:39
the way that he put his you know rhetoric but the idea was don't assume you will live to 60. Don't assume you will live to 70. You could die at 20 21 22 what have you left to offer Allah subhana wa
1:28:50
ta'ala. And what that does to you is you stop with the aims of being I will dream of being a and you
1:28:57
start dreaming of what will I offer Allah subhana wa ta'ala if I was to meet him tomorrow. What did I do? Did I for example show appreciation to for letting us use the studio? Did I say a nice word
1:29:07
to Jalal and tell him Jalal is there anything where I can make your life easier? Did I for example when my mom woke up this morning did I could I for example have taken the cheese and
1:29:16
put it on the bread instead just so I can say y I I did that in that regard. what are the projects I can get involved in? You stop thinking about the projects you want to create. You start thinking
1:29:24
about how do I serve and not serve because you want to benefit other people. You serve because you want to save yourself. And what you end up finding is that you plan your life this direction.
1:29:34
Allah takes you that direction. You try to go through this door. Allah keeps it closed and takes it this door. Why? Because life is not linear. I actually think life is in chapters. And this is
1:29:44
what I often say and this is what my father used to say to me although I never really understood it. My father used to say that if you show Allah that you're grateful and willing to do something
1:29:52
with what you have today, Allah will give you more power to do something greater tomorrow. And when
1:29:57
you show Allah that you're grateful for that power and that service and that role that he gave you, Allah will elevate you and give you a greater role and will give you greater power. And so
1:30:06
Allah will keep doing it not as a reward. This is what people confuse. Not as a reward to test
1:30:12
you further. It's easy to be generous when you're not somebody who's necessarily rich. But what is
1:30:18
it when you're rich suddenly and suddenly you you want to hoard your money? You want to keep your money or that kind of thing. What if Allah takes it away? The next chapter is that you get poorer.
1:30:26
My point is life is not what do where do I want to be at 60 years of age? Life is the first wave of
1:30:32
fitna comes. I'm a teenager. What do I do to adapt to it? How can you I pass the test the next wave?
1:30:37
Then you're a traveler. You go through a storm. Then you go through a desert. Then you go through etc. until you meet Allah subhana wa ta'ala and Allah says right here's the book what did you do
1:30:47
when I gave you this when I gave you this when I gave you that parents assume that the success of their children and I'm a parent I speak as a parent the success of their children is that at
1:30:56
55 years of age they are leading an army like and they enter also it doesn't matter what happens in
1:31:03
this duny your success will be whether you enter Jenna or not my son don't act like you're going to live till you're 60 yes Sammy did you send that charity to tunis Yes, Sammy, did you do it? Bab,
1:31:14
I'll do it later. Who said you're guaranteed later? Sammy, go and do it now. And you have
1:31:19
some shame on yourself. Sammy, did you go that person that you promised to take that thing to? Did you go and do it? Ah, he said I can go deliver it to him tomorrow morning. And what if you die
1:31:28
tonight and you can't deliver it tomorrow morning? Get up, my son. Stop being lazy and go and do it. The the perspective is completely different. When my mother I tell her, "Mom, I'm tired."
1:31:36
Like so I pray she tells me you how do you know you're going to be able to pray tomorrow? What
1:31:42
if it's your last my son? Why do you why do you scupper the opportunities that Allah has given
1:31:47
you now? We talk like westerners where your whole life is somehow this arrogant thing where you are
1:31:54
the protagonist. Your destiny in life is to be the greatest individual at 60 years of age. That's not
1:32:01
the Muslim mentality. The Muslim mentality is Allah has given me an aortioned allotted time
1:32:06
on this earth. I don't know how long I have here. I don't know how long I will be here. I don't know if it's 20 years, 30 years, 40 years or 50 years. I don't know how long I'm going to live. So,
1:32:16
and the reason Allahh has left it that way is to encourage you to do as much good as you can do now. Which is why the best advice you can give to your parent if you want to instill a
1:32:25
sense of mission in my opinion, warn them they could be dead tomorrow. Warn them they may not
1:32:31
live to become the lawyer that you keep saying they should be. Warn them they may not live to be a doctor. Warn them that they could be dead tomorrow. What have they prepared for it? Give
1:32:40
them initiatives to get involved in. Tell them, listen, I know you don't like this initiative, but do it just so you can say to Allahh that you did it for him. Okay, fine. Prepare initiatives
1:32:49
around them in order to use them as tools now as opposed to later on. And the reason why I say
1:32:55
this is when students come and I won't go into I promise I'm wrapping up. But when students come and they say how can I pursue a career as a political analyst I'm like I don't I don't know
1:33:03
what to tell you because my life is just a series of chapters. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer didn't end up lawyer became political resident Tunisia happened in the Arab Spring and then I
1:33:12
was with my father you know working alongside him here and there and then somehow I got dragged to America and then somehow I got taken to Australia and each time somebody asks how did you end up
1:33:21
here? I don't know. I just know that each time I think the chapter is finished, Allah sends a new
1:33:27
chapter. And you know what's terrifying Jalal is that these chapters, you can't see them coming. I'm not planning for them. When they come, my attitude is not, oh, this is the next stage of the
1:33:35
career. It's Allah. This feels like a new fitna. Allah, I'm scared of what's coming next. Allah,
1:33:44
people are hearing more people are hearing my voice than they heard before. Allah, I don't know if everything that I say is good. Allah, I don't know if it's the right direction. Allah,
1:33:55
you know it's what's in my heart. You know I'm just as uncertain as the next person. Allah, if you've brought this to condemn me, then Allah, don't give it to me. But Allah, if you've brought
1:34:06
it in my hands, I'm scared that I will be an ungrateful servant if I abandon it. So Allah,
1:34:15
I seek protection from any arrogance or any sense that any of this comes from me. Allah,
1:34:20
if you've chosen me for it, then at least do me a favor of guiding me through it. Allah,
1:34:25
show me what I should say. Bring me the people who can advise me best. Show me where I can be
1:34:31
of maximum use. Allah, let me recognize where I'm useless. Let me recognize where I should stay away
1:34:37
from. Let me recognize that this is domain. Let me recognize this is Jalal's domain. Let
1:34:42
me recognize this is domain. Let me recognize that this is, you know, this person's domain.
1:34:49
Let me recognize where I can and I can and can't be of benefit. Allah, I could die tomorrow. Allah,
1:34:55
give me an opportunity today to do something whether it's a podcast where I can leave behind a legacy where I tell them that it's not about Sammy. It's not about Jalal. It's not about
1:35:04
thinking Muslim. People don't like watching me and you Jalal. People like the mention of Allah
1:35:09
subhana wa ta'ala. We shouldn't get it twisted. People like the mention of the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. People like the mention of the Sahabah. How many times do you
1:35:18
hear, "Yeah, the politics is all great. What I love is the inclusion of Islam in it. I'm aware it's not our words or your words that people like. It's Allah subhana wa ta'ala." So yeah,
1:35:27
let me appreciate that it's your words. Let me celebrate it and let me make it so on the day of judgment, I can stand before you and say, "Allah, you only gave me 35 years in this life or you only
1:35:37
gave me 25 years in this life. Allah, I knew I'd be meeting you eventually. So I didn't waste time
1:35:43
when I was 13. Look what I was doing. When I was 14, look what I was doing." And the final advice I will give is this. I didn't appreciate it at the time. My father was asking my opinion from
1:35:55
when I was 13. My father would put and I be like, I don't understand why he's asking me this. He'd
1:36:00
ask me about the color of his background in his studio. He'd ask me what I thought about what the
1:36:06
individual said to him when we were sitting in the haram in Mecca. He wasn't necessarily interested
1:36:11
in my opinion. But I think that he wanted me to consider listen think about these things. Tell
1:36:17
me what it what you're thinking. And and I didn't understand it at that time. I just be like, "Baba, he's just a shakeh in my eyes." He said, "But what did you think about his point when he said
1:36:25
this?" And I felt valued. It got to a point where at 15 16 years of age, if my father called me,
1:36:31
I didn't feel like he was, you know, patronizing or belittling me. He rarely ever took any opinion
1:36:36
I said seriously. But he would sit and make a point of saying wad come this is
1:36:43
uh read this and I'd read a letter somebody had sent him from a political party or from some individual. What do you think about the request that he's making? I'm clueless. My my
1:36:52
opinion probably doesn't matter. But he made me feel like son this is a world you could be part
1:36:58
of. This is a mission. And I felt like I'd look at my friends and they're all you know messing
1:37:04
around and whatever. And my father made me feel like I I can be part of something bigger even if
1:37:11
I'm only 16 15 like my father asks me you can't tell me I'm a jah like my father takes you know
1:37:17
he asked my he may not follow it but he asked my my mother she used to tell my dad and later she would admit it she goes I used to tell your dad like ask his opinion ask ask his whatever and my
1:37:27
dad would just random and I appreciated it because he filled me with a sense of I'm not just the son
1:37:33
I'm not just the burden that he spends hands on and looks after. I'm not somebody that he sort of,
1:37:38
yeah, this is my son. Did you do your obligations and the like? He made me feel like I'm not just a son. I'm a friend and I'm not just a friend, I'm an adviser. Jal, you don't I'm not saying
1:37:49
you don't understand, but Jal, like that filled me with huge I felt like I'd love to serve in this,
1:37:55
which is why I call him my king. I call him when people are like, I'm going back to London. Why don't you want to move? I said, I can't leave my king. I can't leave my my president,
1:38:02
my khif. like he is my leader you know like I I' I people think that I exaggerate and he's he's br
1:38:08
you've met him like he's very good at what he does people say when you see him you understand where I came from but he did it intentionally because at 15 16 I didn't appreciate it until years later
1:38:18
he's putting the books in your hand etc I think in my opinion when I look now at my own kids I
1:38:24
do it now with Selma Selma's 10 we have our travel company when I go I tell a Selma who do you think is the virus in the group the one we need to watch out for who's been dragged by their friend onto
1:38:35
the trip. They didn't want to come. So, we need to be careful and put extra attention on this person so that they feel like they're actually enjoying themselves. Baba, I think it's that one. Selma,
1:38:44
they've come from Hong Kong, California, South Africa, these places. Selma, what do you think we should do as the icebreaker? Baba, can I do it? Sure, Selma. Go ahead. She grabs the microphone.
1:38:53
Welcome everybody to Halal Travel Guide. Selma, now when I sit me and my wife and talking, she talks as if her opinion matters on the table. Really? And in my mind in the beginning you think
1:39:03
girl I'm talking to your mother like like move. But in another world I'm like this is how Baba used to treat me in that regard. If you can believe that was 17 when the prophet Muhammad
1:39:15
commissioned him in the army. Imagine the kind of training that the prophetam had given us nuz from
1:39:21
the age of 8 9 10 and 11. He wasn't giving him just the YouTube you know cartoons and the like.
1:39:27
They were making 11year-olds reading about the history of philstine. They were putting Muhammad Ess's book on a 10-year-old. They were putting all these sophisticated books believing that
1:39:36
we don't need to follow the western concept of what a child is in that regard. A child doesn't
1:39:42
become an adult at 18. Maybe if we trust our kids a bit more. Maybe if we give them the license the
1:39:47
way my father, may Allah bless him and preserve him, gave me that license at 13 when he said, "You know what? I'm going to gamble on this boy. I'm going to trust him with things that
1:39:56
you'd only trust a 18, 19 year old. Maybe they will grow up faster. Maybe they'll find their mission faster. Maybe they'll become bolder. And maybe by the time they're 20, 21,
1:40:05
they will conquer Constantinople as Muhammad F did at the same age. Thank you so much for your time.
1:40:16
Please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head over to our website thinkingmuslim.com to sign up to my weekly newsletter. Okay.