Ep 264. - Trumps Deal: Is it Really Over for Hamas? | Dr Azzam Tamimi
Can an idea be defeated? The Gazan resistance has proven to be far more resilient than Netanyahu's predictions. This week, we speak with Dr Azzam Tamimi, an academic and activist who has authored one of the most authoritative works on Hamas in English. You can find Azzam Tamimi here: X: https://x.com/AzzamTamimi IG: https://www.instagram.com/azzam_s_tamimi
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
0:00
Netanyahu has failed. He wanted to crush the resistance. He wanted to retrieve the hostages
0:07
without negotiations. He wanted to depopulate Gaza. How robust is Hamas at this stage. I
0:13
think it's robust enough for the Israelis and the Americans to negotiate with. Can an
0:18
idea really be defeated, but Gazan resistance has proven to be far more resilient than Netanyahu's
0:24
predictions? This week, we speak with Dr. Azam Tamimi, an academic and activist who was offered
0:30
one of the most authoritative works on Hamas in English. The world is changing because of the 7th
0:37
of October. Now the world can see that this is not Jewish suffering being compensated. This is
0:43
another colonial imperialist supremacist fascist project led by Zionism. It's anti-human. It's not
0:52
just anti-Palestinian. It's not just anti-Muslim. It's antihuman. Netanyahu may try his level best
0:58
to return to hostilities and to never enter into phase 2. Today we have Dr. Azam Tamimi,
1:06
author of Hamas Unwritten Chapters uh to talk to us about uh the deal which was signed two
1:13
days ago and the ceasefire which came into effect yesterday. Dr. Aam Tamimi asam and welcome back
1:20
to the thinking muslim. Thank you for having me again. It's really good to have you with us. Now,
1:26
um we're speaking just a day after the ceasefire came into effect and so there's a lot a lot of
1:31
moving parts and of course um uh whether this ceasefire would hold uh Allah knows and you know
1:38
we are in a in a very uh difficult situation it seems to me or at least a a period where
1:45
things are very cloudy and and and not very many things are are black and white. However,
1:51
um commentators have suggested that the reason why Hamas had to accept this deal uh was out of
1:59
weakness. Uh Hamas according to I mean these are largely mainstream western commentators Hamas ran
2:07
out of options. Is that your reading of um is this a marker of failure for Hamas? I don't see this as
2:14
a failure at all. Uh to the contrary, I think uh Netanyahu has failed in his bid to achieve any of
2:22
his objectives. He wanted to crush the resistance. Yeah. He wanted to retrieve the hostages without
2:31
negotiations. Yeah. Uh he wanted at one stage to depopulate Gaza. Um now I think the whole
2:42
landscape changed and uh that's why Hamas well well see Hamas has always been willing to accept a
2:52
deal. They negotiated deals before Hamas accepted them and it was Netanyahu who either ran on them
2:59
or refused them right at the beginning. Yeah. Now what Trump did actually is that he presented the
3:08
Arab and Muslim leaders with a plan. Then that plan was tampered with and it was changed. Uh
3:20
some one one article even was completely omitted from it. It was a 21 point. Yes, it was 21 then
3:26
ended being 20. Netanyahu came and sat with Witkov and Kushner for several hours and they changed the
3:36
they reddrafted the points. Now Hamas looked at this and decided to say neither yes nor but gave
3:49
an answer that opened the door for negotiating simply because what was offered wasn't a plan.
3:57
If you looked at the points, that was not a plan. These were instructions. These were orders. You
4:04
need a plan for every one of them in order to implement them. So, Hamas said, "Okay, we welcome
4:11
uh the initiative, but there are things that pertain to Hamas, there are things that pertain to
4:18
the Palestinian people as a whole, and therefore there are be they are beyond us. and we cannot
4:25
uh decide on our own. Yeah. And there are things that are vague and need to be uh ne discussed and
4:33
we need we need to negotiate. So this is what happened. So the the the the ceasefire that
4:39
went into effect much later than was promised anyway u was the product of the negotiations.
4:50
It wasn't simply straightforward Trump's plan. It was the result of several days and several nights
4:59
of continuous negotiations that were attended and witnessed by the cutaries and the Turks as well
5:07
as the Egyptians. Right? Because of course one uh one of the points in the 20point plan talks about
5:14
the demilitarization of Gaza and uh in effect the eradication of Hamas as a political and military
5:20
authority in in Gaza. Um I mean do you think that um we'll get anywhere near that type of outcome?
5:29
Well, if the Israelis and their allies in the West believed Hamas could be eradicated, they
5:36
would not have negotiated with it, right? They sat with Hamas top leaders negotiating the terms. Now,
5:44
Hamas was very clear about demilitarization and or decommissioning or laying down their
5:51
arms. They said this can only be done if there is a Palestinian state. Like every other state,
5:59
the state has a monopoly over force or over power, over the use of of force. Unless that happens,
6:06
you cannot expect us to just give you the arms and wait to be slaughtered. Yeah. Because this
6:12
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7:20
So how do you assess uh Hamas as an organization at this stage? Um you know some analysts argue
7:27
that many hundreds of thousands of its fighters have now been uh been removed been killed. Uh and
7:34
of course uh a lot of its leadership especially those in Gaza uh have been have been killed
7:40
have been martyed by uh by Israeli forces. Um uh how robust is Hamas at this stage? I think it's
7:49
robust enough for the Israelis and the Americans to negotiate with. Now, I don't know. Nobody has
7:57
has absolute details. Yeah. But of course, it doesn't require much expertise to conclude that
8:07
militarily Hamas is much weaker. Uh but that's that's not the issue here. Uh Hamas popularity is
8:17
up and not just among Palestinians. Hamas today is the true representative of the Palestinians in the
8:26
eyes of the world. Even those who don't recognize Hamas as a legitimate organization feel they have
8:33
to sit with it and negotiate. Um now in terms of membership we heard so many reports yes probably
8:43
many of its members have already been martyed but this is a movement that continues to recruit.
8:53
Hamas is not just an organization. Hamas is an idea. Hamas is a tradition. Hamas is a culture.
9:02
Hamas today stands for what every Palestinian believes to be his or her rights. Um,
9:12
and the loss of leadership is not new to Hamas. Right from the beginning after its formation,
9:19
after its birth in 1987, the Israelis launched campaign after another.
9:31
In one month, they assassinated the two top leaders of the movement inside Gaza. She Ahmed Yasin followed by Abdaz Rantisi. They assassinated scores before and many after.
9:43
Hamas is not based on some sort of a personal cult. It is based on an idea. So so long as
9:53
you have people who believe in this idea and who work for it, the movement will continue
9:59
to compensate its loss. And do you believe that the last two years of slaughter, the genocide has
10:06
actually increased Hamas's appeal amongst ordinary Palestinians? There's no question about this. Even
10:12
there there've been polls recently that prove this right and and that's why you find that the
10:19
Zionist media and some of the Arab Zionist media that that was wishing for Hamas to be completely
10:29
eradicated were employing certain voices here and there to complain and to accuse Hamas of being
10:37
responsible for this tragedy for this catastrophe. But this is not the opinion of the majority of the
10:42
Palestinians. I mean, do you believe I mean, of course, one one can accept the legitimacy of the
10:49
resistance, but do you believe that uh and this is relitigating, you know, the uh the attacks
10:55
two years ago, but do you believe that uh it was right strategically now I'm asking for for Hamas
11:01
to have launched this attack against Israel? Uh I don't think anyone in our times can judge this.
11:09
Um, this is very similar to the Tet offensive. I think we talked about this on a previous meeting
11:17
uh during a previous encounter. Those who launched the Tet offensive in February 1968 in Vietnam
11:26
thought they could achieve a certain objective. Their objective was to turn the Vietnamese
11:31
against their uh government that was that is in South Vietnam, the government that was lackey to
11:37
the Americans. They failed in that and they were eventually militarily defeated. But their attack,
11:45
the Tet offensive sparked the beginning of the end of American presence in Vietnam. It turned
11:52
the Americans and then the Europeans and then the rest of the world against America. And the Americans had to negotiate first in Paris. When the negotiations failed, they had to withdraw
12:03
unilaterally in utter humiliation. So who am I to say the 7th of October was a a miscalculation or a
12:13
misadventure? Today, as we stand, we can see many positive outcomes. The world is changing because
12:22
of the 7th of October. Yes, of course. There there has been a lot of there's been much loss. There's
12:29
been much suffering. Uh 100,000 nearly 100,000 gazins lost their lives. Many more probably are
12:39
amputees or wounded. The entire Gaza strip is destroyed. No homes, no schools, no hospitals,
12:47
no universities, etc. But this might be found by future historians to be the one reason the world
12:59
changed and the balance was tilted in favor of the Palestinians. Because Israel since its creation
13:06
until recently always uh provided a narration that presented it to the world as if it were
13:17
the victim or because of the Holocaust and because the Jews are hated and because of anti-semitism.
13:24
And it is as if the Palestinians or the Arabs are the Muslims who were responsible for all of this. Yet many around the world believed this false narrative which by the way most Jews
13:36
in the beginning did not believe in and they they tried to refute and then Israel became the comp
13:43
the global compensation for uh the for Jewish suffering. Now the world can see that this is
13:51
not Jewish suffering being compensated. This is another colonial imperialist supremacist fascist
14:01
project led by Zionism which does not represent Judaism or the Jewish people. You wrote a recent
14:10
piece in Middle East style where you talked about motivations of Donald Trump. Can can I ask you do you feel that in a sense Donald Trump has been exceptional here? I mean uh he was willing to
14:21
force Netanyahu into this deal. At least that's what the common narrative suggests. Whereas uh
14:27
we can't think of a recent president that was willing to coersse a an Israeli prime minister
14:35
into a peace agreement with the Palestinians with the you know with Hamas and with the Palestinians.
14:41
I mean you know do you give credit in a way to Donald Trump for his diplomacy? Donald
14:47
Trump could have stopped the war immediately after taking office. Yeah. And he didn't. And why he has
14:56
changed his mind and managed to bring Netanyahu to the negotiating table again. There are a number of
15:07
factors. It's not just one factor. I think there a number of factors. Yeah. First of all, I think the
15:14
world has given Netanyahu too much time, right, to do the job. Netanyahu kept saying, "Just give me
15:22
a few more weeks, a few more days, a few more hours, and I'll finish the job." He couldn't do that. And we entered we we almost entered into the third year of this genocide, of this war. Now
15:37
throughout the the past two years so much happened in the world that people perception of Palestine,
15:44
Israel, the conflict changed and there's an entire generation especially the youth and money and many
15:52
are Jewish uh who are opposed to the war and who consider Zionism today to be the problem.
16:01
The language changed so much. Many of the things that were taboo until recently, now people talk
16:08
about them even in America. I mean, look at the talk shows, look at the podcasts, some even from
16:14
the right-wing uh trend in America. They're all condemning Israel for what it has been doing. And
16:22
the Arab governments, Arab and Muslim governments have have grown also very worried because until
16:27
when can they control their masses? The masses were are boiling in Egypt, in Jordan, in Arabia,
16:36
in North Africa, probably Pakistan, in Malaysia, Indonesia, everywhere, in some African Muslim
16:43
countries as well. So I think we reached a stage where all these factors came together uh forcing
16:52
everyone to say enough is enough. the Arab leaders and the Muslim leaders whom Trump met in New York,
16:59
Trump and his administration, many Israelis by the way, um the families of the hostages and and the
17:09
youth and the demonstrations, the demonstrators around the world. So all these factors really
17:14
came together. Trump of course was hoping to be awarded the Nobel Prize for this. Yes, that might
17:23
have been a side order rather than the main menu. So, it might have he might have had some personal
17:34
ambition, but I think it was a lot more than that. Yeah. I mean, how important do you think the um
17:40
attack on Doha, the Qatar attacks were, the failed attempts by Israel to assassinate the leadership,
17:48
the negotiating team in inqatar? How important do you think that was in consolidating the minds here
17:55
in the west? I think it played a role played a part definitely because first this was an
18:02
attack on the negotiators. He wanted to kill the people with whom his team was negotiating.
18:09
Second he attacked a country that is hosting the negotiations. a country that is hosting
18:15
the biggest American military base in in the world really or in the region at least at least
18:22
in the region and I and and he by by doing so he infuriated some of his own friends in the Gulf.
18:34
I think the Saudis and the Emiratis, of course, the Emiratis had normalized relations through the Abraham the Abrahamic Accords. The Saudis were were going to until the 7th of October happened
18:46
and they they were still willing. But when this happened, they came to re to the to conclude that
18:52
this guy is crazy. He could be attacking anywhere. I mean, nobody imagined that the Qataris would be
18:58
attacked in this way because they were very close to the Americans. They were involved in mediation.
19:04
They were hosting the negotiators. So yes, I think it it did and it and it was condemned by most
19:11
leaders around the world, including in Europe. Yeah. Um, you mentioned earlier on in one of your
19:17
answers that the meeting that took place between the Arab Muslim leaders on the sidelines of the UN and Donald Trump may have impacted I mean we've had a number of interviews where we've described
19:30
the uh the failure of these Muslim governments. Like what changed? Why is it that that meeting
19:37
suddenly raised the issue of Palestine and Gaza? uh and and it seems like that consolidated in
19:43
minds of in the mind of Donald Trump that he needs to act like what what made the difference there?
19:50
Well, of course, Muslim and Arab leaders are very disappointing. I mean, they failed their peoples and they failed the Palestinians. Yeah. Uh but see, politics is not a straightforward thing.
20:03
I I think because Netanyahu couldn't do the job, it took him so long and he he
20:11
managed only to destroy so many lives and to be indicted by the international courts that
20:21
this this has become an embarrassment even for Arab and Muslim leaders. I think this is what
20:26
changed. Um and when they met with Trump and probably earlier through bilateral contacts,
20:36
they told they told him that this cannot continue like that until until when is this going to
20:42
continue? And that brings me back to the idea that I tried to explain to you that there were so many
20:48
factors coming together at the same time. Yeah. And they together caused the change. Of course,
20:55
this deal uh is um is separated into two phases and phase one is the simple simple but but effect
21:04
important ceasefire phase. Uh but of course there has to be negotiations regarding phase two and
21:12
uh from all accounts I mean thinking about the original ceasefire that came into effect when
21:17
Donald Trump became president um it it's it seems to me that Netanyahu may try his level
21:24
best to return to hostilities and to never enter into phase two where there's a full withdrawal of
21:30
Israel and and a reconstruction of Gaza. Is that your reading? I mean, do you feel that
21:36
um the situation may be as precarious as last time and uh we may be talking may Allah forbid
21:44
in in a few months time talking about a return to this genocide. Well, Netanyahu is well known
21:50
to be a compulsive liar. He is deceitful. He is can describe you can put all the
21:57
ugly words in describing him. Uh but I think the change that has happened after two years
22:05
of genocide will make it less likely for him this time uh to return to war. Uh first of all,
22:16
Trump is involved and you know Trump personality and his ego and he's going to come to the Middle
22:23
East. Uh he's going to sign the deal by himself. So it will it he is going to make it
22:31
more difficult for Netanyahu to turn against the the deal. Yeah. Uh but also u Netanyahu at home
22:42
is having problems and that's why the reason that that that's the reason why he prolonged the war.
22:49
He wanted the war to continue because he didn't want to go to jail. Now with the war ending,
22:56
probably life going back to semi-normal and they're going to prepare for the next elections.
23:01
Yeah. And if he doesn't go to to jail before the elections and he doesn't win the next elections,
23:08
he will definitely go to jail afterwards. Uh so there are there are all sorts of considerations
23:15
and then I think the world is not willing to allow him this time. There's no justification whatsoever
23:27
and some European leaders are very anxious about what's likely to happen to them if cases are
23:37
lodged against them in the international courts. The Germans, the Italians, probably the British as
23:42
well. Any any government that supported Israel in its genocide is likely to be uh made accountable
23:54
for that. So that again there are there are a number of factors that will make it a a lot more
24:01
difficult for Netanyahu even to contemplate returning to war. Netanyahu of course is a
24:09
uh a a politician that's been in power for a very long time in Israel. But of course we know that
24:16
um with many governments if you change the face uh potentially you can change the narrative. I
24:22
mean how in a previous answer you've talked about how Israel as an idea Zionism as as an
24:28
idea is today toxic especially in the minds of younger Americans, younger Europeans. Um how
24:38
um consolidated do you think that toxic label is now? I mean, do you feel that um there is a
24:45
way for Israel to recover its its position in the world with a change of leader, with a change of
24:50
emphasis, with a uh with a aesthetic shift? Well, if they really want to improve their image in the
24:59
world, then then they have to change a lot about about themselves. The religious Zionist current
25:08
is a great detriment to them. Yeah. Um many of its leaders like Wir and Smotridge are in are indicted
25:18
criminals in the eyes of the world. But I I don't I really don't know whether they do they'll do
25:25
this or not. See for me I can see one thing very clearly. The two years war was only the beginning
25:35
of a long process and that's the process of undoing Zionism. Zionism will eventually be
25:42
undone because it's a colonial project. And one of the signs of this is that an increasing
25:49
number of people around the world are seeing it for what it is. It's anti-human. It's not
25:56
just anti-Palestinian. It's not just anti-Muslim. It's antihuman. Because in the name of the divine,
26:01
they can justify any crime, including genocide. And that's very dangerous. So they may try to
26:09
improve their image again. Uh but I am I am of the belief that it's too late. It's too late. So
26:20
what does the undoing of Zionism mean in practical terms? Well, Zionism is a colonial project. It's
26:27
like colonialism in Algeria. It came to an end. It's like it's like apartheid in South Africa. It
26:32
came to an end. It's like American imperialism in Vietnam. It came to an end. It's like the Nazism
26:38
in in Europe and it came to an end. It will come to an end. But that doesn't I don't mean by this
26:45
of course uh the end of Judaism and and the Jews. Jews are cons are in the eyes of the Muslims on
26:53
the basis of our faith are the people of the book and we don't we don't blame Jews for Zionism.
27:00
We knew that initially the majority of the Jews were opposed to Zionism and we know that today
27:06
there are there is an increasing number of Jews who are distancing themselves from Zionism and from Israel. So the in the in a future where there is no Zionism, Muslims, Jews, Christians and all
27:20
other religions can once again coexist peacefully in the area that is colonially known as the Middle
27:27
East. Can I ask you about uh a a question which is more uh which is more local which is more uh on a
27:36
on the British home front. Um but group Palestine action of course it's a it's banned now as a
27:42
terrorist group unfairly I think we would argue but it's banned. So we have to be careful how we talk about them. But a group Palestine action uh has has been outlawed by by the government and it
27:54
seems like it's outlawed on the most flimsiest of of reasons. I mean you know it's nowhere
27:59
near anything which we can term a terrorist organization. Um I am I am um it's been amazing to
28:08
see just how many non-Muslims have come out to to support uh uh the the deprescription of Palestine
28:17
action. I think there are now over a thousand people that have been arrested by the police under terrorism charges uh because they have uh engaged in civil disobedience outside Whiteall. Um,
28:29
just comment on that please. Like what you've you've obviously been in in Palestinian activism
28:34
for many decades. Have you seen anything like this before? No, not in Britain. I think that's a very
28:40
dangerous trend. Yeah. And I think that's why people go out and subject themselves to uh being
28:49
detained and accused of terrorism because they are worried not about Palestinian action. Yeah.
28:56
But they're worried about civil rights because the the Labor Party uh has gone beyond imagination in
29:07
uh encroaching upon people's basic rights. I mean Britain was well known to be the most liberal of
29:16
all European countries in terms of civil liberties and human rights. Uh and now this is happening
29:23
and I think the Labor Party which is under the influence of the Zionist lobby. Yeah. H exploited
29:32
the this case in order to test the waters and and then go further. Today they're they're prescribing
29:42
this group and they're uh criminalizing sympathize sympathy with it. Uh but tomorrow and the day
29:50
after they will go after other people and other other groups and other organizations. That's
29:56
what makes it very dangerous. Yeah. Uh back to the 20point plan. Um there is a in phase two there's a
30:04
conversation about um uh creating a transitional body uh of bureaucrats of you know non-political
30:12
technocrats I think they call them and um that will so-called consist of Palestinians but also
30:17
be overseen by a number of international figures and Tony Blair uh is is one such figure I mean
30:24
how viable do you think that is as an option I think it's a ridiculous idea yeah It's uh unlikely
30:32
to be to to ever to be successful. Yeah. I mean, look, the Palestinians in Gaza never surrendered.
30:39
Two years of genocide and they did not surrender themselves. Yeah. And eventually they managed to
30:46
get the ceasefire through negotiations, almost direct negotiations. And now the Israelis and
30:56
their allies in the West think they can bring a war criminal to run the affairs of the people
31:04
of Gaza. He I mean see Tony Blair would be mad to involve himself in something like this. He'd
31:11
he'd be crazy to involve himself like something like this. What next for for uh the people of
31:16
Gaza? I mean we uh we know as Muslims that and you've always talked about this that we need
31:21
to be optimistic and we need to believe in and have faith uh in uh ultimately Allah subhana wa
31:28
ta'ala's victory. Um sometimes we look at just the enormity of the challenge in front of us. Um Gaza
31:37
is under rubble today. Um some say it would take decades to clear up Gaza, let alone rebuild Gaza.
31:46
um like in in your mind how how viable now is Gaza as a place where Palestinians will reside? Yes,
31:56
Gaza is in rubles but it can be that can be rebuilt. Yeah, it can be done. Uh I
32:08
know that the picture is or it seems very very gloomy. Yeah. But I don't see it this way. Um,
32:18
I see the steadfastness and the resilience of the people of Gaza as a main failure, as a major
32:24
failure for Zionism and its supporters. That's really what matters. A house gets destroyed,
32:32
it can be rebuilt. It's no big deal. the success in Gaza, the success of the people of Gaza in
32:46
withstanding all this punishment. Yeah. By the Zionists will be seen in the coming days. I I am
32:57
optimistic that this will have an impact across the Arab world from the Atlantic Ocean to the
33:04
Gulf. Um, and the Arabs do not lack resources. They don't lack the expertise and the talents.
33:16
They lack freedom. The day they regain their freedom, everything else will be made easy. So,
33:25
this is how I look at it. I I don't I'm I'm not uh put off by the scene of of destruction.
33:37
People are dearer to us than stones and and bricks. So many people have perished as as a
33:44
result of this war. But there are also many who are still alive. If you saw the pictures today,
33:50
the the footage today of people returning to their homes, their homes were were rubble,
33:56
were in rubble, completely destroyed, level to the ground, their mosques, uh their universities,
34:02
their schools, everything, their clinics, their hospitals. Yet, they moved from the center of Gaza
34:09
and from the south all the way back to Gaza City. Gaza city. During the past few weeks,
34:14
the Israelis did not leave a single building standing. Yet you can see the enthusiasm in the
34:22
eyes and and you see can see the optimism in the eyes of these people going back to their homes. I
34:27
mean you're Palestinian. You've been involved in Palestinian activism for many decades. I remember when I was at university you were given lectures on on Palestine. Alhamdulillah. So um that mindset
34:39
uh sometimes it it's outstanding. It's it's astonishing to see and I think a lot of people
34:46
uh just marvel at uh the the resilience of of the Palestinians. Just explain that mindset
34:53
like what formulates that type of resilience in the minds of these occupied people. Well,
34:58
it's not unique to the Palestinians. So many nations before us struggled and made sacrifices,
35:05
enormous sacrifices in order to gain their freedom. As we mentioned earlier, the Vietnamese, Algerians, other nations that were under colonialism, the people of South
35:15
Africa who fought apartheid. But in addition to this, Palestinians are Muslims and they
35:22
have they have Islamic faith. The Islamic faith teaches them that this world is not an eternal.
35:32
It's it's going to end one day. We're going to leave and it would be better to leave as
35:38
a as a struggler as a mujahed rather than leave while sleeping in your bed or in your comfortable
35:48
sofa. Uh so it is all these martyrs will not be seen as loss. They will be seen as a sacrifice
35:59
necessary in order for the the people and the land to be free again. The Algerians offered millions,
36:06
the Vietnamese millions as well. So there is really nothing unique about it. Though of course
36:12
the the the Islamic faith, the belief in the last day, in the hereafter, and in the eternal rewards
36:18
prepared by Allah uh to the for the believers who who make these sacrifices is is is an important
36:26
addition. Dr. Tamimi, you've written this book on Hamas, the unwritten chapters. Um,
36:33
I think the book is is is a little um uh I mean it's written a number of years ago. Yes. Do you
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have any plans to update update this book with with the most recent episodes? Well, I wish well
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at the time I uh I wrote the book I had access to Hamas leaders. U most of the I mean much of the
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book is based on interviews. If I had if I if I am to have the if I'm to to be given that opportunity
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again Yeah. Of course, I'd be delighted. But you see, there's so much that we don't know about
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uh the recent years. Yeah. Uh I I think since the since the collapse of the Arab Spring movements
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um there's so much that we need to document and we need to do interviews with the people concerned
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because Hamas was impacted upon severely by the fa by the collapse of the Arab revolutions. And
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then come came the uh the 7th October and many of the people involved in the 7th October have
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gone. Some are still there. So we need we need to interview them and we need to write about
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that that uh phase in the history of the movement. My book talks about the birth of the movement and
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its development, its ideology and the stages it went through until I finished the book in
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2007. Uh so it's a book of history about Hamas. It doesn't cover any of the contemporary events. And
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if I don't do this myself, I hope that someone will do it. And I'm sure so so many people will
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will try and and write about this latter phase in the history of the movement. In your mind,
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Hamas is here to stay. Well, as an organization, I don't know, but as an idea, of course, definitely Hamas, you see, uh, one way of looking at this is compare Hamas with Fatak.
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when Fatak came under pressure, under the hammer because of what happened in Jordan
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and then what happened in Lebanon and then uh the various stages that that that led
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to so much pressure being put on Yasar Alfat to recognize Israel. Hamas underwent severe
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pressure during the past two years and it is nowhere near that position that Yasfat decided
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to adopt. There is no recognition of Israel. There is still uh determination that Zionism
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is illegitimate and it cannot remain in our homes. still adherence to the path of jihad and struggle
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uh and there is no regret whatsoever uh that they've been walking along this path. That's
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the difference. Hamas until today is the one Palestinian organization that is still carrying
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the torch and is leading the way. Dr. Tamimi, thank you so much for coming in today, giving
39:58
us your reflections. Thank you. Please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels
40:06
and head over to our website thinkingmuslim.com to sign up to my weekly newsletter. Perfect.