Ep 263. - How Zionism Hijacked Christianity with Reverend Robert Owen Smith
Much of the support for Zionism in the United States stems from an Evangelical Christian background. Our guest today is the Reverend Robert Smith, a lecturer and religious thinker. We examine Christian Zionism and its fundamental principles in depth. He contends that Zionism is deeply connected to the story of America and indeed the story of modernity.
You can find Rev. Robert O. Smith here:
Website: https://www.revdrrobertosmith.com/
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
So on every Sunday morning I was hearing stories about the rapture, about impending nuclear Armageddon and about the importance of the state of Israel, colonization,
0:10
the occupying of Jerusalem. Then all of a sudden the Christian Zionist says, well clearly this is
0:15
necessary for the second coming, right? That says how dare you uncritically destroy other people's
0:21
lives for the sake of your theological fantasy but also for the sake of your imperial fantasy.
0:28
Much of the support for Zionism in the United States stems from an evangelical Christian background. Our guest today is the Reverend Robert Smith, a lecturer and religious
0:37
thinker. We examine Christian Zionism and its fundamental principles in depth. He contends that Zionism is deeply connected to the story of America and indeed the story of modernity.
0:49
uh you argue that it's it's far deeper and there is a almost a religious duty within parts of
0:56
American society to support Israel. Well, it is it's a tremendous challenge for American
1:02
empathy toward Palestinians. There there's a variety of ways that Christian Zionists deal with Palestinian Christians, deal with the problematic of them. If you're allowing
1:11
your abstract ideal to override the life and well-being of flesh and blood people, then
1:17
you're engaging in a form of extremism that that must be not just spoken against, but defeated.
1:24
Reverend Dr. Robert O. Smith, welcome to the Thinking Muslim. So happy to be here. Thank you. Well, it's lovely to have you with us and I am really looking forward to our conversation
1:33
today because we had a brief conversation a few days back at an event and um really I was
1:40
fascinated by what you you talked about. I mean, we're looking at uh Christian Zionism today and
1:46
the roots of Christian Zionism, particularly here in the US, but I'm sure uh we we would talk about
1:51
Christian Zionism around the world and and how uh how in many ways Christian Zionism has embedded
1:58
itself as a philosophy or as a way of thinking in so many Western societies. I we see it in Britain,
2:04
but I think it's very acute here in the United States. And I was struck by uh something you
2:10
said to me uh that day when we met when you des when you talked about how embedded this ideology
2:17
really is into into into it's knitted into the American way of thinking. It's almost part and
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parcel of of what America is. So I want to explore that idea today and what Christian Zionism is,
2:30
its origins. And I know you're you're really the best person to talk to us about about that. Now,
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uh before we begin, can I just get a quick quick idea about yourself, you know, your background?
Growing up Christian Zionist
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Um because I I remember you telling me that uh you were brought up to be a Christian Zionist. Um and
2:49
so something must have shifted in your worldview. So just tell us a little bit about that,
2:55
like why were you brought up to be a Christian Zionist and and what changed for you? Well, thank you uh for that question and and thanks for having me on the podcast. I I am thrilled
3:05
to to be in this conversation uh with so much reach uh beyond audiences here in Texas. So,
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we we're meeting here in northern Texas. I'm originally from Oklahoma City, which is just north of here, about a three-hour drive. I was raised in Oklahoma City throughout the 1980s,
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uh as a Pentecostal Assemblies of God Christian. So on every Sunday morning I was hearing stories
3:30
about the rapture, about impending nuclear Armageddon and about the importance of the state
3:36
of Israel. That that was my steady diet growing up. And uh we als it was one of the first mega
3:44
churches in the United States. Uh the uh there was a group called is still a group called Trinity
3:50
Broadcasting Network that would broadcast from our church on Sunday evenings. Uh so that that
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televangelist culture that was just beginning in the early 80s was something I was raised in
4:01
organically. Um so like I said nuclear Armageddon uh the state of Israel and of course Republican
4:08
politics all woven together uh in this context of of 1980s Oklahoma City. Oklahoma is still the most
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Republican state in the country. Every county uh in the last election voted for President Trump.
4:22
Wow. So that was the the environment I was raised in. Um I moved in January of 1991 to Germany. My
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father had a position with the US government that allowed me to go to an international high
4:38
school and that really was the beginning of the shift in my perspective. I went to this place
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with a graduating class of 80. We had close to 50 nationalities represented in that one
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class. And so I was in I was in the hallways with Japanese students but with Bosnian students next
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to Croats and Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians all next to each other. And this kid from Oklahoma
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suddenly had a world expanded that I really hadn't been made aware of before. and then
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came back to Oklahoma for my university studies which didn't go well in the beginning because
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of that world and and trying to squeeze that back in to a more parochial view didn't work. Um after
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that well during that process I'd say in Oklahoma I completely disassociated from faith because my
5:32
faith had been tied to the cultural values of what I had been raised in. But it was during university
5:38
studies I became a Christian again but in a very liberal a very open expansive view and that's what
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sent me off to seminary but the first degree I earned at my Christian seminary was an MA in
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Islamic studies really and so from that moment on getting to know Islam and at this Christian
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seminary having Muslim teachers alongside my Christian teachers uh again worlds opened.
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But in that process while I was in seminary, 9/11 happened and that that took me in a new direction.
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How did how did it take you in a new direction? So with 911 we immediately saw I immediately saw
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how my classmates some of whom were Muslim but most of them were Christians who were coming from
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Muslim majority context. So, northern Nigeria, Egypt, they were suddenly under threat because
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of their perceived association with Islam. And so, my Egyptian uh friend plastered the back of
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his car with American flag stickers, you know, these sorts of self-protective moves. Yes. But
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then with one of my professors, we went and formed a a human chain around our neighborhood mosque
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uh the next Friday to ensure that there were no threats against this community. And then
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um be because I was the only student on campus who had completed the MA in Islamic studies,
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I received the overflow of all the requests coming from congregations asking the question,
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why do they hate us? What is Islam? And so in the year after 911, I went into over 60 congregations
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talking about Islam and Muslim Christian relations uh just on the ground experience getting to know
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people and what their questions actually were. And it was that work that I did as a seminarian
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that then took me on my first visit to Palestine in November 2002 because I was the only student
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who had been doing that sort of work. a group was going and invited a student to come and I happened
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to be that student. So all of this work wound up together contributing toward a perspective
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on Palestine that I never would have had before. Um and then with the two the 20 2003 invasion of
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Iraq, all of this was politicized yet again in a domestic context. So that was my formation and
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uh it changed me fundamentally. For two long years, Gaza has been under siege, families cut
Donate to Baitulmaal
8:22
off, homes destroyed, lives shattered overnight. But from the very first day, we were there on the
8:34
ground with the people delivering food packages, hot meals, clean water, medical aid, shelter,
8:46
and hope. Every blockade, every shortage, every obstacle, we found a way through. Because when
8:54
lives are at stake, giving up is not an option. We brought not just aid but dignity. We shared meals
9:03
in unity. We cared for the sick and welcomed new life. We gave children a safe space to be
9:11
children again, to learn, to dance, to smile. None of this was possible without you. Your compassion,
9:23
your prayers, your generosity is what kept families going through the darkest of days.
9:30
For 2 years, we have stood with the people of Gaza through every trial, through every heartbreak. And
9:39
together, we will keep standing because hope cannot be besieged and humanity will always
9:48
find a way. Keep the compassion going. Give today. turn your compassion into hope. I mean,
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I want to talk about uh Christian Zionism with you today and it philosophy, but I'm really fascinated
American empathy
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by that that journey. Do you think that so many Americans, they just don't have that exposure to
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other cultures? It was your time in ' 91. I mean, this is after the Cold War, of course, just after the Cold War is your time in a German a German school, an international school, which exposed
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you to other cultures. And again, maybe I'm I'm generalizing here, but my impression is that
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so many Americans just don't have that level of exposure to other cultures. And and that's part of
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the problem or part of the challenge we face when when trying to build empathy for the Palestinian
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cause. Well, it is it's a tremendous challenge for American empathy toward Palestinians,
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but it's a it's a challenge of American empathy toward many other contexts. Here in the US we have
10:56
kind of an inverse nationalism. So a created nationalism based on a concept of whiteness
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uh where nationalism is manufactured uh in this space. It's different than other contexts. And
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so that homogenizing force is is very real where you're encouraged to drop your distinctives and
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just identify as American, right? And so anything that's different, anything at all that's different
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uh is is difficult to identify with. And that's why you see uh especially in post 911 era
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different Americans confusing six with Muslims, right? Well, you've got strange headgears. So
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you are must be Muslim. So those sorts of cultural forms of ignorance are are real. And I I do think
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that part of what happened in my life, dropping me into a completely different context than even my
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parents understood, they lived most of their lives within the American ecosystem that still existed
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than in Germany. I was living in a very different world and that that changed me into a different
12:02
person. really. I mean, maybe I'm sounding a little naive here when I say that when I've
Ordinary Americans
12:08
come across ordinary Americans and I've traveled, you know, a number of cities now and I've I've, you know, I'm here in Texas. I found Americans to be actually be very polite, very nice, very
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amiable. It's not what I expected, by the way. I you know because you hear about you hear stories
12:24
about white chauvinism or nivism and and you know the anger towards Muslims and I was I haven't
12:32
quite felt that. I'm sure there are pockets where I would feel it and I haven't gone to those those communities but I I feel that I I wonder how deep deeply rooted that antagonism really is when I
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interact with ordinary Americans. I I don't know if you've got a a view towards that. You know, my my sense is that Americans are very amiable, especially in the South, right? There there's a
12:57
a form of of neness and and but there's also an awareness that that that politeness has a limit.
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And the and so if you were a person of color who had lived in this context for long enough
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uh you would know that that politeness also has an undercurrent of weariness of anything that is
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other and uh that's especially true you would think of there's a phrase Minnesota nice so
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the Midwest nice where there are limits to that niceness and still a fundamental weariness of
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otherness underneath it. So there it's it's very much here even though on the surface at the store
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for instance you're going to encounter yeah good interactions with folks but it's at that
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commodified level of relationship that that nicess exists. Would you be invited into their home is a
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completely different question. Um unlike very much the hospitality I've experienced in Palestine for
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tell me about that. Oh my goodness. Uh so well to continue my story just a bit, I uh went to study
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at Baylor University in Waco, Texas to study under a Jewish liberation theologian named Mark Ellis.
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And that was another encounter of Palestine. But when I I started working for my denomination, the
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Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in 2007, I was our director for mission in the Middle East.
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And so over the next seven years I traveled to Palestine over 30 times was all through
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the region in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, uh that Levventine region and the hospitality and the
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depth of relationships that I've developed there is unparalleled with my life here. Uh recently
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in January I went with my spouse to to Jerusalem and she was shocked that all these people would
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you know the shopkeepers come out. Hey Robert, remembered my name. Come on in. Have some tea.
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And if you say no no no I'm a little bit busy. And then they're like oh so disappointing. One
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even called sent me a note at night and said uh my brother told me that you stopped by and you said
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you would come tomorrow. You better. Right. And so we did. we went and had the tea because that that
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level of depth of relationship, that hospitality is something that again most most people in the
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United States have no consciousness of what that that could be in a place like Palestine. Uh the
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hospitality is tremendous. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's what I witnessed when I visited as well. Uh
Christian Zionism
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let's talk about Christian Zionism and um you know from the outside I felt I used to believe that
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Christian Zionism is very much a modern political phenomenon. It probably developed you know in in
15:53
the late uh 20th century and um uh it was really used as an instrument for political ends uh for
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American foreign policy. uh you argue that it's it's far deeper and there is a almost a religious
16:09
duty within parts of American society to support Israel. Just talk us through through that please.
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Well, I think the the first part of my response to that is uh and that this is something that that
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scholars rarely do is breaking that fourth wall uh to say I thought exactly the same thing. I I
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I also had the assumption that Christian Zionism was a pretty recent phenomenon that was now being
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used as a political tool and that's how I started my research and thankfully I had some excellent
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mentors who said go further uh what what are your primary sources as an historian and so what I
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eventually found and at that point I assumed that it had to do with dispensationalist theology with
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rapture theology is the foundation of Christian Zionism again because that's what I was raised in.
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That's what I was familiar with. The assumption that I went in with was that Christian Zionism was relatively recent and based on rapture theology. This premillennial dispensationalism based on John
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Nelson Darby's ideas popularized through the Scoffield Bible. And that that of course would
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take the history to the 1890s. Right? So that was my assumption. And I was encouraged to go further
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go further. And really when I first started the project I said all we need to know about Christian
17:32
Zionism is in the newspapers today. That's how thin my historical understanding was. So I was
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taken back further. There were some writers looking at Christian Zionism based on Darby's
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ideas. He was an an Irish preacher who came to the United States on several missions preaching his
17:52
ver his version of dispensationalism. And this was an idea that in the end times there would
18:00
be a seven-year period of tribulation during which the antichrist would rule and eventually
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the antichrist would be defeated by the returned Jesus and the armies of Christians who had been
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resurrected prior to this period of tribulation. This this great esqueological drama. And again,
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because I was raised with all that, it all made sense to me. If you're not raised with that, it's it sounds very strange. And and that's where a lot of people stop with their analysis. They think,
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well, this is the strange thing. Uh this is what grabs my interest and clearly these people are
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crazy and that's the problem. Yeah. Right. I went further. Right. Can I ask you about you use the
‘Rupture’ & ’Second Coming’
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term rapture? Yes. Uh and second coming just to explain the Sure. Sure, please. So the there's
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this idea in premillennial dispensationalism which again is not the it's not the Christianity that
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I'm a part of now. Right? And there are different options just like in Islam, different ways to emphasize different faith traditions and schools of interpretation. So in dispensationalism,
19:12
this idea is that Jesus is going to come back in the clouds. Gabriel will blow the trumpet
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and the dead in faith will be raised from their graves bodily resurrected and then those who are
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still alive when that moment is will also be caught up in the clouds to Jesus and love be taken off into heaven. Right? But that's not the end of the story. That then starts this period of
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what's called tribulation. uh where then halfway through the antichrist comes and desecrates the
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temple presumably the temple in Jerusalem and then after a further period of tribulation Jesus with
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the avenging armies of Christians will come back to defeat uh the the great enemy. And so that that
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and so the second coming is really that that move at the end, right, where this triumphant warrior
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Jesus comes back. Yeah. Uh and then of course final judgment comes and and the the way then
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Islamic esquetology it it it tracks, right? You can it makes sense uh to Muslims when they hear
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a story like that. It's like yes, okay, Jesus the the judge and you know these sorts of things. Uh
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but it has this story has no place for Muslims in it. It's it's a story about Jews and Christians,
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right? And and just underscore that why is it a story about Jews and Christians? What is it about the story that excludes Muslims from that end end point, right? So Muslims at this point are are
Muslim Exclusion
20:51
only assumed to be enemies. uh there and that's that's what the deeper history actually begins to
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show us of how Muslims become constructed within this Christian Zionist narrative. Uh Muslims are
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are solely understood as enemies. Jews have an opportunity to convert to Christian faith, right,
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at some point in this process and and therefore can be redeemed, right? So the state of Israel
Anti-christ
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is an embodiment of that final point before the antichrist arrives. So the state of Israel has to
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be present as a unified state as a state for Jews. Antichrist arrives, desecrates the temple and that
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leads to Jesus as Jesus's second coming and the defeat of the antichrist. You have described a
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very yes the more recent formulation of what a Christian an evangelical Christian Zionist might
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say. Yeah. But of course the assumption of the state of Israel didn't exist within a Christian
21:55
Zionist framework before the state of Israel existed. Right. And so this is a theological system that shifts and changes over time to account for political developments. And all of
22:05
a sudden with the founding of the state of Israel and especially its expansion in 1967, especially
22:11
the the claim the the colonization, the occupying of Jerusalem, then all of a sudden the Christian
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Zionist says, well, clearly this is necessary for the second coming, right? That gets incorporated into the system. And then clearly um this is how Lindsay in particular saying that 1948's the
22:33
founding of the state of Israel. 1988 therefore must be the the time of one generation, one
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biblical generation of 40 years. Therefore must be the time we have to look out for the rapture as
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because of Jesus' statements about this generation will live to see. And so you have all of those
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ways that that contemporary political developments get brought in uh to Christian Zionist thought. Uh
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which of course makes it a very uh contingent theology if contemporary politics is actually
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informing what you think is is truth. Yeah. And now you argue that it doesn't stop at it doesn't
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start at John Nelson Derby. It goes deeper. Ex explain that. Let's go further back. In fact,
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John Nelson Darby was anti-political. He he encouraged his uh his followers to not vote,
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to not participate in political systems. And so that's the crux of my argument. His anti-political
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stance uh meant that how could he be really the father of this profoundly political ideological
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movement? Uh he was a separatist. And uh that that has been taken up by some scholars say
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that that makes sense that Darby cannot be the sole person who originated Christian Zionism.
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Um, in fact, Darby was operating off of a Christian Zionist framework that had been
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developed centuries before. And that that's what my research finally took me to, looking at these
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ideas of first of all, I was looking at the question of dispensationalism and how the the
24:13
dispensation concepts uh came into the earliest forms of English Protestant thought. Um, but
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what I found was that it it really begins with the Protestant Reformation, especially in England, and
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that's where Christian Zionism really finds its roots. Oh, really? So, yeah. So, so unpack that
History of Christian Zionism
24:33
for me, please. Of course. Yeah. So, we're talking now 16th century, 17th century, Britain, England.
24:41
This is a time of the Reformation. That's right. And your argument is that the story of Christian
24:49
Zionism is actually embedded within that really early stage of what we can call western modernity
24:56
or western civilization. Indeed. Yes. I mean uh if we talk about modernity beginning in 1492 for
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instance then 1585 is truly this point where English Protestant reflection on esqueological
25:12
hope as a nationalist hope uh begins to emerge especially around Elizabeth. Okay. And so there
25:19
there was a really important book uh published in 1585 uh which was the uh the first fulllength
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English language uh commentary on the book of revelation. And so that these ideas are are coming
25:36
out. Uh this is Francis Kent. I should name uh the historian Andrew Chrome currently in the UK who is
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a wonderful historian of these texts as well uh looking back at these these deep foundations. So
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K is operating but it's really a uh person named Thomas Breitman who brings this together uh in
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in a uh in a four-part structure and by the time Thomas Breitman is he lives between 1562 and607 he
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wrote this book titled Apocalyppsis Apocalypsios uh which is a full another full-length commentary
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on the book of Revelation and that's published in 1609 and the first English translation from
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Latin is published in 1611 in Amsterdam and this is right in the thick of the civil wars right and
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uh so he is producing as a a Presbyterian Puritan he's producing this uh commentary on revelation
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um in that book He's very much criticizing the Church of England as no better than Catholics and
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you know that you know from this pro this Puritan standpoint but he says that to put England back
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on the road to God's redemptive favor. We need to no longer be like the Church of England and run
27:14
neither hot nor cold. We need to be passionate in our faith and uh therefore uh we have to overcome
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God's anger with us through a Judeoentric interpretation of prophecy. A Judeoentric
27:32
interpretation of prophecy. I mean straight away that sounds odd. Um, here we've got a Christian
27:38
uh, religious leader who's evoking another religious tradition and and calling for that
27:45
tradition to be embedded within like it's it's almost what was wrong with English Christianity,
27:53
right? And now we need to renew our Christianity with with Judeo traditions. Explain that to me
28:00
like how that works. Well, what he's doing is saying that we know that in the Bible
28:06
Jews are the good guys, right? That that's that the biblical narrative is especially in the Hebrew
28:12
Bible. They they're given these land promises. God, they're they're designated as chosen. All
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these sorts of things. The they're the good guys. Well, who are the bad guys in 169611?
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uh first it's the the pope uh the papist the Catholic uh when and they roll of course the
28:33
church of England into that ball right but the second major threat at that point is the Ottoman
28:39
Empire the Turk which is Islam at large in this general sense and so this Puritan movement sees
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itself as fighting against the Pope and the Turk well they have these two major enemies Who is
28:56
their ally? Who ought to be their ally? Well, of course, it's Jews. The strange thing about England
29:02
at English Protestantism at this time though is they didn't know any Jews because Jews have been
29:09
banished by Richard II. And so, the only Jew they can conjure is through an interpretation of the
29:15
biblical text. And so they there's this creation of what I call the literary Jew. Not not the real
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flesh and blood Jew and certainly not the real flesh and blood Muslim uh but these imaginary
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people that are my enemies and my allies. And that's the this idea that that starts coming up
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uh in especially in Breitman where he says that the kings I'm looking at his interpretation of
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revelation revelation 16:12 where the sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates and
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its water was dried up in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east. And he says
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but who be these kings? It seemth to me that they are here meant for whose sake alone the scripture
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mentions the waters of old to have been dried up, namely the Jews, unto whom the the Red Sea yielded
30:13
passage, and later Jordan stayed its course till everyone was gone over. This miracle is proper
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to this people only. So literally meaning Jews who he has never met. And so with them
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uh he he identifies these Jews as the kings of the east and he says that his confidence is tied to
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their coming national conversion to Christianity and their restoration to Palestine. So all of a
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sudden these ideas start coming together in the early 17th century. But what need there a way
30:51
be prepared for them? Shall they return again to Jerusalem? There is nothing more sure. the
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prophets plainly confirm it and beat often upon it. Really? So this idea of the Jewish Jews being
31:05
restored to Palestine or the pal the restoration of Palestine to quote the Jews and that phrase is
31:11
so abstracting, right? It's a reifying phrase. Um the these ideas are in full effect in the early
31:18
17th century. How popular were these ideas at the time? Um you know this is the 17th century. We've
Judeo Worldview
31:25
got the Reformation. We've got the the development of uh of liberalism. Yes. You know, h how popular
31:34
is this? I suppose the what you're describing here are the roots to this notion of a Judeo-Christian
31:40
worldview? Indeed. Like how popular is is this at the time? Profoundly popular. This this is
31:46
extremely well-known thought. Yeah. In fact, at this same period, of course, Puritans are
31:52
making pilgrimage or heading across the Atlantic to North America. And Mr. Breitman's ideas are
32:00
taken directly into North America by the Puritan settlers, these colonists who create the very idea
32:09
of America, are making are creating that idea in in response to Mr. Breitman. And yeah, it's it's
32:17
it's extremely current. And um again, this idea that he when he talks about the the restoration
32:27
of the Jews, this is specifically to defeat the the Ottoman Empire, right? So we're Okay,
32:35
I'm I'm now seeing this connection. Yes, the early pilgrim fathers, the early migrants to to America,
32:43
uh, you know, they um, embrace and adopt this way of thinking and they come to America. So,
32:51
how how woven is that into the very basic idea of what America is as a as a country? So, let me take
33:01
a step back here, please. Yeah. In Breitman, what you have is the the idea of a four-part structure.
33:09
Uh yes, this is a very important piece. Please. Yeah. Where you have the enemy proper to each
33:18
being the the Jew and the the Puritan. The proper enemy to the Puritan is the papacy. The proper
33:26
enemy to Jews is the Turk, the Ottoman Empire, Islam. And so the the the Allied victory that
33:35
these Jews converted to Christianity will enjoy is the defeat of the pope and the Turk which is a a
33:42
standard Protestant Reformation period structure of the world. And so this this idea that in
33:50
alliance with Jews, Christians will defeat these these twin enemies of the pope and the Turk uh
33:57
is in fact what we see in contemporary Christian Zionism today. Right? I I I and of course this is
34:04
post crusades. This is you know all of that. But the this idea of the the Ottoman threat is real at
34:12
the time. uh but it's something that we cannot underestimate the the power of these ideas for
34:18
contemporary western Christian thought really yeah and this becomes this is a little bit later on in
34:24
Joseph me then there's another person who builds on Breitman yes and what he by and this is in 1627
34:35
uh Joseph me says that he's looking at revelation 14:15 you see how important the book of revelation
34:42
becomes In these inter interpretive structures, the the the threshing and reaping of Revelation
34:50
14:15, me communicates a dual image, that of reaping and threshing, as well as that of
34:56
gathering in which is a reference, he says, to Israel gathered together into the garner
35:02
of the church, the former to the slaughter of enemies in conjunction with that event.
35:08
These enemies are proper to each component of the future composite church of Jews and Gentiles. The
35:14
two parts of the church of Christ as as it was about to become double by the conversion of Israel
35:21
has its own peculiar enemy. The former the Roman beast with its uncircumcised origin, the latter,
35:27
the Muhammadan Empire over a circumcised people and of an Israelitish origin ominous
35:33
to the descendants of Isaac. He is certain of the coming extermination of both to be accomplished
35:41
at the coming of Christ. That's the four-part structure and how it operates in 17th century
35:49
Anglo Protestant thought. So America then is in the Puritan conventional imagination a redeemer
35:57
nation. That's a term I've heard you use. Yes. Um um please can you explain that term and how it's
36:04
it's so closely associated with with with not only the roots of America but how Israel is so
36:12
identified with with those roots. So this it's a bit of a jump but all of these ideas of Thomas
36:19
Brien and Joseph me are brought by Puritans into into New England. Yeah. They begin the through
36:28
the John Cotton and Cotton Mather and increase Matherather these these founding fathers true
36:34
founding fathers of the idea of America. They begin developing an idea where America itself
36:42
becomes the the place of redemption. There's even the possibility in their thinking that the new
36:48
Jerusalem which is an esqueological vision will happen in New England not not in in the location
36:56
of old Jerusalem in Palestine. So everything starts to transfer over to this this new area.
37:02
Yeah. Um, when Brightman was writing, he thought that these human-like creatures that he was
37:11
that that that the settlers were encountering in North America, of course, we know them as Native Americans. He thought they might in fact be the demons pent up for the last battle, waiting to be
37:23
unleashed, right? That what uh what the early Americans said was, "No, Mr. Breitman has an
37:32
antique fancy of America being hell. So they start separating themselves. Once they start making that
37:39
move to separate themselves from English identity into more specifically Anglo-American identity,
37:46
then the idea of America itself begins to form. Yeah. The fact that and and yes, what they're
37:52
saying is this new Jerusalem being located in America, the esqueological hope of the planet
37:57
of the universe really does come to America, right? And it does become our responsibility
38:04
then to tame the wilderness, to colonize, to civilize. And I I'm, as I said earlier,
38:12
I'm from Oklahoma. I'm a citizen of the Chickasaw Nation. I I'm an indigenous American myself.
38:17
And to to hear these anti-indigenous concepts woven into these concepts of redemption uh is
38:24
painful just as everything I've said I want to be clear about this Christian defeat of Islam has to
38:32
be painful and offensive for for Muslims to hear. Uh yes these are deeply offensive ideas but we
38:38
have to we have to share the truth of them. When did that uh when did that decoupling occur where
Decoupling
38:45
uh because you've described um the American story is one of and the Puritans believed that America
38:54
was this new Jerusalem and so presumably uh those end of time uh escalological uh um events would
39:06
take place here in America. Right. Okay. So, um, when did and and and of course I'm I'm fascinated
39:12
by the point you just made there like and the parallels with modern day Israel because of course, you know, the the taming of the of the univilized Yes. is what's taking place in in
39:23
Israel, you know, Israel Palestine and that's how they view the Palestinians. So, in a way, there is a an analogy there between the American story and the the Israel Palestine story. But
39:33
coming back to that decoupling. So when when did that realization occur in America that okay the
39:39
new Jerusalem isn't really the biblical Jerusalem and there is is it you know are we talking modern
39:46
times when the state of Israel is established? Uh this actually this decoupling starts happening as
39:52
soon as 1697 that this idea of what's called the New England consensus that that we are not anymore
40:00
English we are American. There was a friend of increase in cotton matters named judge Samuel
40:05
Su and he argued that the new Jerusalem may in fact uh be located in America which by the way
40:13
is the foundation of churches Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Mormon thought that Zion
40:20
is to be located somewhere in North America. Right? These ideas go right back to this point.
40:27
um which is fascinating to think that Zion can be located in Missouri or located in Salt Lake City.
40:34
Uh but that those ideas could not have happened without this break happening in 1697. Um can you
Early Christian zionism
40:41
tell me a little bit about um the 1649 cartwright petition presented to Oliver Comrell and William
40:49
Blackston's 1891 memorial to US President Benjamin Harrison. uh both tied biblical uh
40:57
prophecy I believe to political action. Um I mean how did these two moments shape the trajectory of
41:06
Christian Zionism uh in this new world? Part of the problem in the early studies of Christian
41:12
Zionism is that nobody knew what we were talking about. And so what especially scholars, analysts,
41:19
we needed to define our terms and and that wasn't happening because we all had a sense of what what
41:25
it was, but nobody was trying to develop an analytical definition. So that's what I what
41:31
I did in the beginning. So my definition of Christian Zionism is that Christian Zionism
41:37
is political action informed by specifically Christian commitments to promote or preserve
41:43
Jewish control over the geographic area now comprising Israel and Palestine. This definition
41:50
is important in a few different ways and many uh younger scholars have made their care established
41:59
their careers on challenging the definition. I'm super happy with that. Um, but the most important
42:04
part of the definition is to say that Christian Zionism is political action. It's not necessarily
42:10
the beliefs that lead to that political action because that those beliefs can change over time,
42:16
can shift and can be coming from very different ideological perspectives. But the outcome of
42:25
promoting or preser preserving Jewish control over the land based on your Christian commitments,
42:32
what your political action is is where you tip over into Christian Zionism. So what I've said
42:37
about Thomas Breitman, about Joseph me, those are all theological systems. It wasn't until 1649 that
42:44
Joanna and Ebenezer Cartwright, who were English subjects living in Amsterdam among Jews, flesh and
42:51
blood, real life Jews, that during the Civil Wars, they wrote to to Lord Thomas Fairfax and said,
42:58
"If we would collaborate with the Dutch, and take the the sons of Israel, Jews, to Palestine as
43:07
their their inheritance, then God will bless our country and these civil wars will end. This is an
43:15
explicitly political action, right? And that's the first the first document that shows any form of
43:23
political action being taken. And but of course, it's a self-interest of political action. It's to bless England, which is a curious thing about Christian Zionism. We do this with Jews in order
43:34
to bless us, which of course is the logic of of the Christian Zionist interpretation of Genesis
43:41
12:3. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. So, it's putting that into
43:47
political action. Um, and of course when you say the first example of Christian Zionism is 1649,
43:54
people uh get uh surprised because if they're thinking of this as more contemporary,
43:59
as more recent, it's a a surprising thing. The other petition that you're talking about with
44:07
William Blackstone is very similar. So he's in the 1890s uh prior to Theodore Herzel petitioning
44:18
uh US presidents but using uh Supreme Court justices, other major publishers of newspapers
44:26
and others to encourage the United States to give Palestine to the suffering Jews of Europe. those
44:34
people were being persecuted by uh by the Russian Empire and others a as if it's US land to give
44:41
right the Ottoman Empire is still in existence at this point but uh the this idea that the land
44:49
belongs to these Jews it already they and being given to them shouldn't be a challenge and in
44:56
fact it will bring blessing to the United States and so the same logic uh that the the cartrights
45:02
were using in 1649 to address Thomas Fairfax and Oliver Cromwell, his deputy, was being used to
45:11
petition President Harrison in the United States. And that that was a those are tipping points where
45:18
the political action is actually taken and for me become key moments in Christian Zionist history.
45:25
Right. Okay. Have we said enough about the uh the basic contours of Christian Zionism? Um the red
The Red Heifer
45:33
heer comes to mind. That's been a contemporary conversation. Uh like explain that to me please.
45:39
So the the red heer is complicated. Uh the the red heer you have to understand this is in the context
45:48
of the premillennial dispensationalist idea of the rapture and then the tribulation that we
45:55
were discussing. And so the red heer then if the temple is going to be desecrated by the antichrist
46:02
the the abomination in the temple according to this way of thinking then the temple would have
46:09
to be a functioning sacrificial system at that point and so I'm working backwards how does well
46:17
currently there is no temple in Jerusalem that has a functioning sacrificial system um Many would
46:26
say that the temple used to be located in where Ala mosque is now located, the Ala compound. Um
46:33
uh there's a lot of dispute about whether or not that's the case. And uh so I'm not trying to make
46:39
any statements about that here, but some would say that for a temple, a third temple to be rebuilt
46:46
uh that the Dome of the Rock and potentially the well certainly Alexa as a whole would have
46:52
to be harmed or destroyed for that to be the case. But this Christian Zionist premillennial
46:59
dispensationalist idea says of course a temple has to be there because it's going to be desecrated by
47:04
the Antichrist. Well, how does the temple then get reinstituted as a space of sacrifice? Well,
47:11
in the book of numbers, there's a process where a perfectly red heer needs to be sacrificed
47:17
on an altar uh with all the proper implements and tools uh to have the ashes that will then
47:24
be used to sanctify the the temple. Where are cattle raised in the United States? Texas. Very
47:34
much Texas. Here we are. So, there's a group of Southern Baptist farmer ranchers. Yeah. Here in
47:41
Texas who are working diligently using the latest DNA technology to develop the a perfectly red heer
47:50
who will not have any white hairs. That's that has to be perfectly red. And so, they're using all the
47:55
latest breeding technology they can uh to produce this red heer. So about a year and a half ago,
48:03
two of these cattle were imported to Israel from Texas. They were imported illegally as pets. We
48:11
And when this came to to my attention, it was through the um through my relationship with
48:18
the retired Lutheran bishop of Jerusalem, Maniban. And uh he had been asked by uh his royal highness
48:28
prince Gazi bin Muhammad who is the cousin of of uh his royal highness king Abdullah uh to
48:35
uh to look into this question and so Bishop can answer I know I need to talk to Robert about
48:40
this and so we we put together a change.org or petition to not only protect these animals, right,
48:49
who who have been illegally imported to Israel and are going to be potentially killed, but to condemn
48:55
the extremism, the political extremism that turns Jerusalem alutz into an apocalyptic playground
49:06
for the imaginations of others. How dare you turn this place into into a space of killing where you
49:15
think you can just destroy these millennia old buildings, these spaces that are Islamic holy
49:22
spaces for your apocalyptic fantasy. And that that's what the red heer is truly all about.
49:29
The extremism of this imaginary uh that needs to be rejected and defeated. And that ties directly
49:36
back to the foundations of Christian Zionism in its uh 16th and 17th century form because
49:44
again those Christian Zionists were seeing Jews and Muslims as imaginary characters. And today,
49:53
so many Americans, and I I I think I can say that pretty definitive definitively, see Jerusalem
50:02
as a Disneyland, right? They see it as a space that's there for their entertainment. when they
50:09
go on pilgrimage there, they're taken around and shown spaces and, you know, they they look at this
50:15
like it's it's a theme park that's been made for them as opposed to a space that's been living for
50:23
millennia and that that contains the stories of all of these Abrahamic faiths together and that it
50:30
is not up to Americans to step in and destroy what has developed organically over those millennia.
50:38
Uh, and I I think that any idea that you can simply sacrifice a red heer and restart the the
50:44
temple sacrificial system, who cares what's been there before for the last 1500 years,
50:50
who cares? Well, my friends, uh, you're you're an extremist if if that's what you're if you're
50:57
allowing your abstract ideal to override the life and well-being of flesh and blood people and
51:04
living acting communities, uh, then then you're engaging in a form of extremism that that must be
51:11
not just spoken against, but defeated. Yeah. And that that's that's part of what drives me in this work. Right. Okay. is a Reverend uh uh Roberts um you are an ordained minister. Uh so you're someone
Critique of Israel in Bible
51:24
who's wellversed in Christian tradition. Uh I watched that Ted Cruz Tucker Carlson interview
51:31
where you know Ted Cruz said it's in the Bible and and Tucker Carlson asked him to elaborate
51:37
okay where in the Bible. So, of course, there is a this is not there is not a unanimous acceptance
51:43
of this of this basic philos theology or basic philosophy of of Christian Zionism. What's the
51:50
critique from your perspective? like how how do you see uh these prophecies and and how do you see
51:58
uh the how do you see that construction of an argument that in effect uh places Israel
52:03
as a as a as not only a political foreign policy obligation but also a religious obligation for for
52:10
uh for for Americans. It's a fundamentally uncritical stance. Uh it's an it is a stance
52:17
that relies on unthinking. Yeah. and that you know here we are on the thinking Muslim podcast right
52:24
it to encourage Muslims and to think but also to encourage others to think about Islam and and so
52:32
it's an uncritical perspective that when you're sitting especially as a US senator as as Ted Cruz
52:38
currently is and I hope to be uh running with the Green Party of Texas. So you're standing as the
52:44
Green Party candidate? Yes. In the next senatorial elections. Yes. Okay. As as an ordained minister,
52:51
as an indigenous person, as someone who uh is known by by Israel lobby people in the US and and
53:00
constantly uh critiqued by them, uh I am standing as as a candidate for US Senate with a faith
53:09
perspective that says, "How dare you uncritically destroy other people's lives for the sake of your
53:16
your theological fantasy? but also for the sake of your imperial fantasy. Uh this is not
53:23
uh these two things go together. And so you can be you can be a person who's unthinking and have
53:30
an uncritical faith system, that's fine. But if you're sitting as a a US senator, one of the 50
53:37
60 most powerful people on the planet, sitting at the the levers of empire, my friend, you you
53:46
must not be uncritical. And and the fact of course with somebody like Ted Cruz or John Cornin or uh
53:53
the other Texas senator, they're not uncritical, they're not unknowing, they pretend at it. Yeah.
54:00
and and it encourages this US ignorance of the worlds that that is fundamentally dangerous. Uh
54:07
Americans for the most part do not understand the power that we wield throughout the world.
54:14
One of the fascinating conversations I had uh with a was a group of Palestinian Christians
54:21
sitting in Jerusalem, a young pastor asked me, "Robert, why why do Americans in the United
54:30
States not listen to us? Why do why do people not pay attention to us?" And the bishop was a
54:38
different bishop at this point, Bishop Arum said, uh, oh, when you're sitting in a golden room,
54:45
there's no need to look outside. Right. And that that I think is how most Americans are kept
54:51
ignorant or encouraged in our ignorance of the world and our effect on it. Uh, for me,
54:57
the challenge of Christian Zionism is one that that demands demands that it be named as
55:03
religious extremism. or religiously sanctioned political extremism. And uh one of the curious
55:11
conversations I had uh with my Jordanian friends, Jordanian Muslim colleagues was, you know,
55:19
since 911, we in the the Muslim world have been challenged again and again to to stand up against
55:26
the extremists in our communities. And we've done that. We've done a very good job of that.
55:33
we can show our progress on that. When will you do it? Uh because those extremists are are destroying
55:42
people's lives throughout the Middle East. And so that I think is is a deep challenge for us. I want
Palestinian Christians
55:48
to ask you about those Palestinian Christians. I mean, how does do they factor at all in the
55:53
conversations amongst the Christian Zionists? because, you know, these are co-religionists who are uh who are suffering and who have the same claims as the Muslims in in Palestine.
56:05
Like are they or are they just airbrushed out of out of the conversation? You know,
56:11
there there's a variety of ways that Christians Zionists deal with Palestinian Christians, deal with the the problematic of them, right? Because they they're they they do represent a a
56:22
uh a wrench in the machine. Um, one of the ways is that they're simply airbrushed out or their their
56:32
perspective is dismissed. Yeah. And that dismissal is difficult when so I'm going to say some things
56:40
that again some Muslims might find offensive, but this is how people talk about those Palestinian
56:46
Christians. Well, they they live under the threat of Islam. They are then mei and therefore they
56:55
have to act as then mei and be subservient to their Muslim overlords and and therefore
57:02
you can't trust anything they say. Right. So that dismissal which is very orientalist right in it in
57:08
its construction. Yeah. Or then they take the next step to say they're anti-semitic. Yeah. And of
57:15
course this conversation about the weaponization of anti-semitism. I've been working on Palestine
57:20
related matters for over 20 years. I've been very familiar with the weaponization of anti-semitism. Yeah, it's taken a deep and important dangerous turn the past two years. Uh but this uh yeah,
57:33
the attack on Palestinian Christians as being fundamentally anti-semitic and immoral uh through
57:39
that that anti-semitism. So there there are layers to the dismissal. Um, can I um step out of the
57:46
uh the Christian Zionism conversation for one very quick second? I I've been fascinated by just how
57:51
on the left on the liberal left uh you know, of course we have liberal Zionists and they're pretty
57:58
as as religious in their zealotry as as right-wing Zionists are. Yes. Um where does that come from?
Liberal zionism
58:04
And is that is that a more recent political project or because of course you know 17th century we've got the development of you know this puritanical pro-ionist uh Protestantism um but of
58:18
course we've also got the formation through John Lark and and others formation of of liberalism.
58:23
Sure. Can you track liberal Zionism back to that period as well? That's that's more difficult
58:30
to do. I I think that the liberal Zionism truly sprung up in in the post World War II
58:38
era in in the so this immediate awareness of a post-holocaust era rushing into the 1948 founding
58:44
of the state of Israel. And so there you see the formation of a left uh kind of a leftist
58:54
liberal version of Zionism uh championed among Christians by people like Ryan Hold Neighbor. And
59:01
so he's a chief architect of US foreign policy with his his concepts of realism. Yeah. And so
59:08
his form of realist Christian Zionism I think is is something we can identify in that period. So,
59:15
but liberalism itself is the cover, right, for so much injustice to say we're spouting liberal
59:21
ideals uh while while engaging in in so many forms of injustice that that is such a common aspect
59:29
of of our society. So, so I and I think Zionism simply falls into that same liberal pattern. Um
59:38
and but there have always from that point on there have always been liberal Christian Zionists. That
59:44
gets intensified in the 1980s uh with the rise of and really post67 the rise of post Holocaust
59:54
Jewish thought with debates between Ellie Visel and Richard Rubenstein and Christians that are
1:00:01
part of those conversations as well. So you have the development of a specifically postHolocaust
1:00:08
Jewish Christian dialogue that that identifies problems within Christian theology that are worth
1:00:15
identifying that and Christian theology did did of course contribute not only to the Shawah to the
1:00:23
Holocaust but to millennia of Jewish suffering and so we need to take account of that as Christians.
1:00:30
Uh but when the answer then is to empower the state of Israel to protect Jews and as a liberal
1:00:38
value and that protection then results in untold harm to Palestinian populations suffering under
1:00:47
settler colonial reality. Then we have another set of questions we need to ask. And that that
1:00:54
was that was my doctoral study under Mark Ellis was becoming familiar with the post-holocaust
1:01:01
Jewish Christian dialogue, but then how the problems present within that dialogue helped
1:01:07
validate the issraeli colonization of Palestine and the harm brought to Palestinian populations
1:01:15
culminating in the genocide we're seeing today in Gaza. Now I want to end this interview by talking about the contemporary what's happening at the moment in in right-wing circles and
1:01:26
um it's been pretty interesting um MAGA you know make America great again um you know it it is
1:01:34
this America first philosophy and it seems to have incorporated very strong and designism at least in
1:01:41
some quarters I mean the Tucker Carlson interviews there have been a number of interviews the one fascinating interview with the nun I forget her name, but the Orthodox Christian nun. Um,
MAGA
1:01:52
uh, we've had Candace Owen, even Marjorie Taylor Green, your representative who's,
1:01:58
uh, who's historically had very Islamophobic, you can say, very challenging views when it
1:02:03
comes to Islam. Uh, but she was the first big, you know, personality, I suppose, to call out,
1:02:11
uh, on the right at least, to call this out as a genocide. Um, even Bernie Sanders hasn't come
1:02:17
close to saying that. Right. So, and that tells us something about the liberal Zionist maybe. But,
1:02:22
um, um, I'm I'm fascinated by this this trend. Uh, because of course the way you've described
1:02:30
um, uh, the historical roots of Zionism. You almost get the impression that it's interwoven
1:02:36
into the American story. It's part and parcel of that American exceptionalism. It's what that
1:02:42
frontier spirit is all about, right? You know, um uh but yeah, we do see cracks in the dam. Um
1:02:49
like explain that that you know that that tension there, please. So MAGA, first of all, the thing
1:02:57
that a very important distinction about MAGA, the make a America America great again movement and
1:03:03
Trumpism is that it's not conservative. It is a radical movement to remake American society. And
1:03:10
uh my partner and I have argued recently that it's remaking society in a white Christian nationalist
1:03:16
image. Right. So that that that's the best way to understand it. Yes. So Christian Zionism is
1:03:24
a pan-American uh very transpartisan commitment. Uh I'm thinking especially Bill Clinton speaking
1:03:31
in 2024 about how Hamas didn't care about Palestinians. They simply wanted to make kill
1:03:39
Israelis and make Israel uninhabitable. But the fact is that before their faith, Islam existed,
1:03:45
Jews were there in the time of King David. I mean, that's Bill Clinton, right? So, thanks. Uh,
1:03:51
this is not a right-wing problem alone. But then the cracks in the dam that you're noticing on the
1:03:57
right. I think part of another component that I'd like to raise is how the MAGA movement growing out
1:04:05
of the right-wing think tanks in Washington DC like the Manhattan Institute and the Heritage
1:04:11
Foundation that produced Project 2025. The Heritage Foundation also produced Project Esther
1:04:18
that has been the the group at the forefront of silencing university critique of is is
1:04:26
Israel's Palestine policies and the group doxing identifying and and removing the the international
1:04:34
students. And so this uh that's one very virulent form of the MAGA movement that is Christian
1:04:41
Zionism uh at a form we've never seen. This this is a weaponization of Christian Zionism that's
1:04:49
based on the weaponization of the I IH definition of of anti-semitism. So we can't forget that.
1:04:57
But when we see to get back to the question you asked Marjgery Taylor Green and even Tucker
1:05:04
Carlson, I think it's important to say that Christian Zionism has always been comfortable
1:05:11
and the Zionist movement itself has always been comfortable with the realities of anti-semitism.
1:05:17
And so my concern when I see that and I especially see in desperation my Palestinian friends perk
1:05:27
up to that and say, "Oh wow, maybe this is a new form of support." My sense is if you Yes,
1:05:35
the enemy of your enemy could possibly be your friend in certain pragmatic arrangements. Yeah.
1:05:40
But if they're being driven by anti-semitism, the anti-Islamic notions, not not Islamophobia,
1:05:48
but true hatred of Islam is not far behind. And so my my concern is that if we invest too
1:05:57
heavily in those voices, Yeah. then we then then the integrity of our movement uh gets
1:06:04
stretched beyond recognition. Yeah. I wonder if it I I I completely agree with you. You know,
Shaping MAGA positively?
1:06:10
one can't be naive to the white chauvinism in particular, white nativism. That's at the heart, at the root of of the MAGA movement and and what that entails in reality in re in real world in a
1:06:22
real world sense is is dangerous for anyone of color and anyone who's, you know, who who who's
1:06:28
uh an immigrant or or um from recent immigrant families. So, I I completely get that. But I just
1:06:37
wonder whether um there is an argument to say that uh at least trying to shape that MAGA movement in
1:06:45
a in a positive direction is something that's plausible and because you're not dismissing it.
1:06:52
you're you're you're actually arguing that Majilly Green and Tucker Carlson that that is there's a
1:06:58
genuine tension there with the more you know with the more established MAGA think tankers in
1:07:05
Washington and of course you know that that that side of MAGA has an aversion to elites. So there's
1:07:12
that battle between the populace and the elites. I just wonder whether how far we can take that uh
1:07:19
that strain of the MAGA movement without losing our identity and without losing our principles, how far we can take that. I my sense is there's always an opportunity to explore the possibility
1:07:29
of interest convergence, right? And yes, of course, the billions and billions of dollars and
1:07:36
pounds that that are sent to the state of Israel to prop up its colonization and genocidal project
1:07:44
is something that absolutely must be questioned. And if nivists are the ones that are going to be
1:07:49
raising the question most clearly, so be it. We just need to understand that they can't suddenly
1:07:55
become our standard bearers. Yes, we can welcome them into a conversation to say it's good of you
1:08:01
to join us after 20 years, right? Or after 60 years. Uh but can you please also get over your
1:08:08
advers aversion to your Muslim neighbor uh so that you can actually have the conversation?
1:08:14
Can you actually listen as Tucker Carlson has to Arab Christians? He also did a wonderful interview
1:08:20
with Munther Isach. Yeah. when leftist uh so he he he spoke to a month is when leftist uh journalists
1:08:30
simply would not and I so I see yes Tucker has been a surprising force in this conversation
1:08:38
there's no reason to boycott him or to ice him out if he's amplifying the voices that need to be amplified so be it one last question for you I mean I was fascinated by a judge at the ICJ judge
Global Christian Zionism?
1:08:50
Julius Saputindi Yes. Uh who openly invoked the Christian faith in siding with Israel. Yes. Uh
1:08:57
telling her congregation that the Lord is counting on her to stand on the side of Israel. Uh she's
1:09:03
also used this in the past month her descent in judgment. Um was very much um uh imshed with this
1:09:12
religious uh Christian Zionism. Yes. Um does that show that Christian Zionism in a way is a global
1:09:19
phenomenon? Now, the way I understand Christian Zionism has been primarily through analysis of
1:09:25
the United States. Yeah. And its Anglo-American foundations. What my global set of colleagues
1:09:33
have demonstrated to me and that I've been so grateful for is the pernitious global reach of
1:09:40
Christian Zionist ideology. And it's true. uh this this judge on the ICJ standing against the
1:09:48
South Africans who brought the case of genocide. Yeah. Appealing not to law, not to statute, but
1:09:55
to her Christian Zionist faith and responsibility. This is a a clear demonstration of how extremism
1:10:02
operates. Yeah. Right. And so yes, Christian Zionism is a fundamentally problematic ideology
1:10:09
that's present not just in many parts of Africa, but is very present in in in Latin America,
1:10:17
especially in Brazilian evangelical politics that supported Jer Bolsinaro really uh it's
1:10:24
very present in Hungary. It's very present and and has this Christian Zionism has been actively
1:10:31
promoted in Latin America by the Atlas group that was founded in the 1980s by the same people who
1:10:37
founded the Manhattan Institute. So it is a as a way to counteract the influence of liberation
1:10:44
theology. So the the the understanding of of Christian Zionism must be as a colonial force
1:10:53
as an imperial theology that is also a promoter of capitalism and and neoliberal capitalism. It's not
1:11:02
simply a religious faith. It it is in fact as my definition emphasizes political action. And
1:11:09
that that I think is the most important thing for us to understand that this is not a faith system we're encountering. It is an ideological structure that that promotes neoliberal neofascism, right?
1:11:21
And something that that we must be confronting every step of the way. Reverend Dr. Robert Smith,
Robert’s work
1:11:27
you you are a I you thoroughly educated me today and I I'm really thankful for your time today. Um
1:11:34
where do my viewers find out more? you know, where can they read uh your your material? Just tell
1:11:40
us a little bit about about your uh your work, please. Oh, sure. So, I I'm currently a professor
1:11:46
of history at the University of North Texas, a research institution in Denton, Texas. Um, and I
1:11:54
I have a website that we'll link uh below the when the podcast is and that that is a place where a
1:12:01
lot of my papers are collected so people can see more. but also this uh book that's generally um
1:12:08
out of print from Oxford on on more desired than our own salvation, the roots of Christian Zionism
1:12:14
is really the basis of of the knowledge that I I try to speak on on this topic and recently wrote
1:12:20
an updated piece on Christian Zionism with uh Bishop Maniban uh this the ammeritus bishop of
1:12:28
Palestine for the Lutheran Church and former president of the Lutheran World Federation. uh my relationships with my Palestinian friends are are long-standing and and very close. And
1:12:38
uh through those Palestinian Christians, getting to meet their network of Muslim friends has been
1:12:45
wonderful. And uh including the most recent visit I made to Alexa with Sheikh Hazam uh there at
1:12:52
at Alexa to you know again my my commitments to the historic status quo of Jerusalem are clear.
1:13:00
uh the Hashemite custodianship of the holy sites in Jerusalem is clear and and that's something
1:13:06
that that I feel like I want to emphasize more and more and more to Americans that our Muslim friends
1:13:12
uh have a deep investment in in the well-being of our Christian family uh in Palestine. Look,
1:13:19
I thank you so much for all that you do and um uh best of luck with the senatorial race. Oh,
1:13:26
thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time today. There there will be a link as well to the fundraising for that opportunity. So absolutely I would love any support that people would like to
1:13:34
throw my way in this extremely Christian scientist context of Texas. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank
1:13:40
you so much for your time. Please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels
1:13:47
and head over to our website thinkingmuslim.com to sign up to my weekly newsletter. Perfect.