Ep 262. - 2 Years On: Has the Resistance Won? With Dr Norman Finkelstein
This week on The Thinking Muslim, we have Dr. Finkelstein to discuss Gaza two years after October 7, 2023. We explore the moral and political legitimacy of Palestinian resistance, Israel’s military response, and the role of the U.S. in enabling it. Dr. Finkelstein also examines Netanyahu’s motivations, the collapse of the two-state solution, and what a just, post-Zionist future could look like for Palestinians, Israelis, and the wider region.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
By October 6th, 2023, Gaza is being described as a toxic slum. But they are in essence caged in a
0:11
toxic slum from birth to death. Right in the eve of October 7, people of Gaza were left to languish
0:18
and die. But they see Palestinian resistance within an immoral and univilized context. They
0:23
tried diplomacy. They tried international law. And then they tried nonviolent civil resistance.
0:30
Israel by its own testimony lined up along the perimeter fence with Gaza its specially
0:36
trained snipers. They said there's no distinction between civilians and combatants. To mark 2 years
0:42
of genocide, we have a special program with Dr. Norman Finkelstein looking at the events
0:47
of October the 7th, the status of the resistance and how Israel today is a pariah the world over.
0:55
Is Israel losing the narrative war here in America? Hamas has 72 hours to accept
1:00
it or President Trump gives the green light to annihilate Gaza. Netanyao counts in the
1:06
fact that people forget, which is true. Most people do forget. A genocide has no silver
1:14
linings. Gaza has been since its founding in 1948. It was being routinely described
1:21
as a concentration camp. The Nazis in the dock, they cover their eyes like they were ashamed.
1:30
Norman Finkelstein, uh it's really a pleasure to have you on the Thinking Muslim. Uh welcome.
1:35
Thank you for having me. Uh well, look, this show is going out on the second anniversary uh or commemoration, let's say, of the um October the 7th attacks um on uh uh in Israel uh the
Attacks of October 7
1:48
breakout they call it from Gaza. Um I want to start with those attacks on October the 7th. Um
1:55
how do you see those events in the context of um the uh the history of of this conflict, the
2:03
history of Gaza? Um and um uh and sort of the the historical um uh subjugation uh that Palestinians
2:14
have been subject to over the last uh half century or more. It's one thing to see it in a historical
2:22
context which I'll present now but I think there's a separate issue which is I don't think one should
2:32
attack attach any special tactical or strategic significance to the attack. Obviously they had
2:43
huge repercussions which continue as we speak. But I think these were basically acts of desperation
2:53
and even though they were carried out or executed with a a significant or surprisingly significant
3:02
degree of sophistication. I do not believe there was any great tactical or strategic vision that um
3:14
um impelled these attacks. First to the historical context. Um Gaza has been since its founding
3:25
really as an entity since its founding in 1948. If you look at the uh historical record which
3:36
even came as a surprise to me as I was preparing for publication a new book on Gaza already from
3:43
1948. It was being routinely described by foreign observers. It was being routinely described as a
3:54
concentration camp. You can take take the case of a leading UN official who was in Gaza in the mid
4:02
1950s. His name is Elm Burns. And if you opened up his book, Between Arab and Jew, I think it was
4:10
called Between Arab and Jew, but don't uh don't quote me on that. I can't I can't say for certain.
4:16
If you opened up his book, he describes Gaza as a concentration camp. when the father of the
4:25
uh presidential candidate Al Gore his Al Gore's father was also a senator when he visits Gaza
4:35
in 1967 when Elm Burns made his comment. Gaza was then under the administration of Egypt.
4:45
In July 1967, uh Al Gore's father who was also a senator, he visits Gaza. He comes back,
4:56
he reports to Congress on what he observed. He described Gaza as a vast concentration camp on
5:03
the send. And then if you move on to the present, there are many other individuals including the
5:13
former chief of the n Israeli National Security Council, Guara Island. In 2004, he describes Gaza
5:22
as a huge concentration camp. So that so to speak is the broad context. We're talking about people
5:32
who are effectively confined and concentrated in a camp. Then on top of that, there are two
5:44
other developments. Beginning in 1990, Israel institutes what's called a closure policy, which
5:54
is gradually, incrementally sealing off Gaza from the West Bank. Then if we fast forward to 2006,
6:05
Israel imposes on God Gaza a medieval blockade in which it effectively determines who goes in, who
6:14
goes out, what goes in, what goes out, controls the airspace, controls the territorial waters,
6:21
and then imposes on Gaza what's what's called a humanitarian minimum diet. They actually
6:31
quantify the calories needed by uh each gazin to physically survive because inducing mass
6:42
starvation is not a good look. At least at that point they don't have a sufficient pretext. So
6:52
um we now have on top of the concentration camp we have this medieval blockade and by October 6th 203
7:09
Gaza is being described um by the Economist magazine as a rubbish heap.
7:19
It's being described by the UN chief UN humanitarian official. It's being
7:27
described as a toxic slum. That was Gaza on the eve of October 7th. Now,
7:39
there are two other factors. Periodically, Israel launched these high-tech killing sprees
7:46
in Gaza. The best known of which are Operation Protective Edge in 2008 and Operation Castle. No,
7:57
I reversed it. Operation Castled in 2008 and Operation Protective Edge in 2014. in the course
8:07
of which thousands of civilians are killed, hundreds of children are killed, uh thousands
8:17
of homes are destroyed on the most flimsy and many cases not even flimsy fabricated pretexts.
8:30
And then there's one other one other consideration namely you
8:37
can say everything professor Fusine just said is true but it leaves out
8:44
a critical point namely there were options that Amas had. Why did it have to resort to
8:53
the tactics of October 7th? But the an answer is Hamas exploited all the options. [Music]
Donate to Baitulmaal
9:28
fear.
9:39
[Music] Hey
9:58
Time won't allow me now to go through it. But Hamas a tried diplomacy. It was permparily
Co-operation of Hamas
10:11
dismissed by Israel. They tried international law. They cooperate with uh commissions of inquiry such
10:22
as the Goldstone Commission after operation Cass led in 20089. They cooperate unlike Israel which
10:32
never cooperate with the UN commissions. Hamas did. Now you might say Hamas cooperate because
10:39
the UN is pro- Hamas. But no actually the UN commissions of inquiry were very tough on Hamas
10:45
in my opinion. overly tough on Hamas. Even the UN commission headed by Na'vi Pai um and
10:58
made allegations. When I say Na'vi play, I'm fast forwarding to the present. Even the UN commission
11:06
headed by Na'vi Pai uh it made allegations against Hamas claims about Hamas being guilty
11:15
of sexual violence. The techn technical term is called conflict related uh sexual violence. If
11:24
you look through the report, I'm willing I'm willing to hear out any claims, especially if
11:31
it comes from a reputable human rights body or commission of inquiry and especially one
11:37
that's chaired by Na'vi Pai, she has she has a justified uh high reputation. But if you look
11:45
at the report which is dismissed by Israel as pro- Hamas, what are its what's its evidence for
11:54
Hamas having committed sexual violence? It said that when women were taken hostage, they were
12:05
forced to sit between two Hamas militants uh on a motorbike. They call that coerced intimacy. Look,
12:17
this is just laughable. Coerced intimacy. As if a woman steps on a subway car during rush hour
12:26
and she's between two African-Americans, she's now a victim of coerced intimacy. In any event,
12:34
to go back to where I left off, they cooperated with there were several commissions of inquiry
12:41
after each of Israel's high-tech killing sprees in Gaza. They cooperated. Gold Stone wrote a
12:48
very good report. I should say Gold Stone. The Goldstone Commission mission. There were several.
12:53
There are four people on the mission. They wrote a very good report. What came of it? Nothing.
13:02
And on top of nothing, Goldstone then rescended his support for the report on April 1st 20, 2011.
13:12
So they tried diplomacy, they tried international law, and then they tried nonviolent civil
13:20
resistance. And what came of their nonviolent civil resistance? Israel by its own testimony
13:29
lined up along the perimeter fence with Gaza, its specially trained snipers. That's what Israel
13:36
says. And then what happened? We know exactly what happened. Another UN Commission of Inquiry into
13:46
what was called the Great March of Return that began March 30th, 2018. And what happened? Well,
13:54
according to the commission of inquiry, which produced a very substantial report, it ran to
13:59
250 pages single spaced. According to the ar commission of inquiry, they targeted children,
14:07
the snipers. Israel itself said every bullet hit its target. They targeted children. They targeted
14:16
medics. They targeted journalists. They targeted disabled people. They targeted double amputees who
14:22
were nowhere near the fence. They were 300 mters away from the fence and they weren't involved in
14:28
any they weren't even demonstrators. They were just like leaning against trees. So that brings
14:37
us to what seems to me the obvious question. The obvious question is what options do they
14:43
have on October 7th? What were their options? They were they were by Israel's own reckoning
14:52
and bear in mind when Guora Island the former head of Israel's national security council when he des
15:00
when he described Gaza as a huge concentration camp that was before the blockade that was
15:07
before the siege that was 2004 the siege doesn't begin until January 2006 so you have these people
15:20
locked up in a concentration camp. They have exploited they've attempted to exploit diplomacy,
15:30
international law, nonviolence of resistance, everything fails. Gaza had disappeared from the
15:41
international the political scene. It's forgotten now because obviously Gaza has now dominated the
15:49
headlines for two years. But by 2020, Gaza was gone. Nobody talked about Gaza anymore. I know
15:58
that. I know that because I had given up on Gaza. I stopped reading about it. I stopped
16:06
researching it. I certainly stopped writing about it. My last book on Gaza sold 370 copies,
16:13
half of which were purchased by me. Yes, it's true because it was a book designed to influence
16:20
an international criminal court decision having to do with Gaza. So, I purchased the copies in
16:26
order to give them free to the ICC, international criminal court uh bureaucracy. Uh I was it was
16:38
clear to me this is going nowhere was squandering time which at this point in my life I I wanted to
16:45
do something else. I didn't see any point anymore. And the only talk in the town at that time we're
16:53
talking about right in the eve of October 7th. The only talk of the town was when and when if and
16:59
when Saudi Arabia would join the Abraham Accords. Gaza was gone and the people of Gaza were left to
17:08
languish and die. Now the people who organized the breakout on October uh 7th, I don't think they had
17:22
any grand vision. I think that's just silly. No, Mr. Sinir, he was in Israeli prison for 20 years.
17:33
And then he he himself said, "I went from one prison to another during the prisoner exchange."
17:40
He went to Gaza. I had to laugh. You'll excuse the digressions, but in the current Trump plan
17:53
for Gaza, they say 250 what? 250 life lifetime uh who who are serving life sentences will be
18:09
will be released to Gaza and they're going to release I think about they say in the plan
18:16
it's never going to happen but you know uh and they're going to free let release lose about I
18:22
think they said 1,500 uh people who were rounded up detainees. Yeah. Okay. Oh, great. You get to
18:32
be part of the genocide. That's that I mean I I guess I would prefer to be in an Israeli prison
18:40
than be released to Gaza to be exterminated. Fine. I I'll take the life in prison. Um in any event,
18:51
uh Senoir, he went as he said from one prison to the next. When you're in prison for that long and
19:00
then you're in Gaza, your vision is so narrow. He called in English tunnel vision. Yeah. It was
19:08
clear he didn't tell any he didn't tell Hezbollah or Iran what he planned to do. And you saw at the
19:17
beginning uh N say the late son say Nisallah he um he was not happy with what happened. He said we
19:30
were not told and you could tell he was not happy about that fact because he had strategic vision.
19:40
He did. He was a very smart guy, a military commander, but he also had a capacious mind
19:46
and he was very serious. He he did his homework each morning. Um and um if you remember his last
19:57
speech before his assassination, he said, "We have to be honest. They have the technological edge."
20:03
Meaning Israel, Israel has the technological edge. which is to say this was not the right time to be
20:09
doing this. But he was stuck because he's quote unquote the leader of the resistance. He has to do
20:16
something. But if he does too much, Israel, Israel will do to Lebanon and what it did to Gaza. And so
20:24
he tried to carve out a middle path between doing nothing and doing too much. There was no middle
20:33
path. Yeah. And that was the end of unfortunately the end of him and maybe the end of his book that
20:42
time will tell. Yeah. Um in any event for NRA, excuse me, for sinar I think it was a roll of
20:52
the dice. It was like let's see what happens. It was desperation. It was just desperation.
Strategy or desperation?
20:59
Yeah. He wanted to uh convey the message that the status quo can't hold. If you think that you can
21:10
negotiate your Abraham accords and whatever else and that we're just going to stay here
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to languish and die, it's like an elephant burial ground. Gaza, they were just left to languish and
21:22
die. Yeah. It's it's not going to happen. So that to me um there's the historical context,
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there's the political context uh namely they tried every option and then there was
21:42
um the reality that there was no strategic vision and I don't think we should try to endow it. These
21:50
are acts of desperation. They were very similar if uh if you look into history, they're very similar
21:58
to the slave revolts. When when the slave revolts happened, uh the one I'm most familiar with is
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the N Turner revolt, which is the biggest slave uprising in US history prior to the Civil War. Um
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he gives an order, kill all whites. That was his order. Kill all whites.
22:22
Did he have any big strategic vision? No. He thought that if you start killing the white
22:29
people, it would shake up the system. People will realize we shouldn't the the slavery is
22:35
uh abortant. Yeah. Well, that it's a political problem. That's what he wanted to do. He wanted
22:42
to shake up the status quo and force the issue of slavery on the national agenda. Just like Senoir,
22:51
if you can credit any vision, it was to force the issue of Gaza on the national agenda. And
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has it done that? Uh, it it did, but at a cost. Yeah. At quite a cost. Quite a price. Yeah. um
23:13
how it will be reckoned in history. My guess is it will go down in history as similar to other slave
23:23
revolts. Uh which is to say it was desperate, it was hopeless. Uh but it was the last uh it was the
23:38
last desperate manifestation of human honor and that's why it will probably uh go down in history
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the same way as the Nat Turner rebellion which is you can you can acknowledge that uh atrocities of
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a high magnitude occurred on October 7. You can acknowledge that, but at the same time,
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you can refuse to condemn the perpetrators of the massacre uh on October 7th. Just like you won't
24:09
find anyone nowadays there, you won't find anyone nowadays who will condemn Nat Turner. Some people
24:18
will say, "I don't agree with his methods." Fine. But nobody's going to say because what was he
24:24
supposed to do? Yeah. What was he supposed to do? Was he supposed to forfeit his earthly existence?
24:34
The Nat Turner rebellion occurs in 1831. The Civil War doesn't come along until 30 years later. Which
24:42
means not Turner would have been an old man and he quite probably would have been dead by then.
24:48
So it means you're asking somebody to forfeit their earthly existence. Would anybody accept
24:57
that? Forfeiting their earthly existence. Well, if we don't expect out of a slave like Nat Turner,
25:09
then we have no right to expect accept that expect that forfeite from the people of Gaza.
25:18
Yeah. So I think you can acknowledge as most of the abolitionists opponents of slavery they were
25:25
called white abolitionists. You can acknowledge what happened during the Nat Turner rebellion
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like October 7th was horrible, ghastly and so forth. Uh but then you can refuse to condemn
25:41
that Turner and do as the abolitionists did. They they condemned the system that forced Nat Turner
25:52
to resort to this uh modus operande kill all white people. They didn't condemn Turner. They
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condemned the system of white supremacy that forced him to exercise that option.
26:11
Now, some people make the argument, but why did he have to kill all these civilians, right?
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I have to say on re on at on at first sight, there seems to be an argument there. You know,
26:25
why not just target military personnel? But to my thinking, it's a complete politically it's an
26:34
irrelevance. Why? Let's take a simple let's take a simple hypothetical. Yeah. Let's say instead
26:42
of an October uh 7th uh 400 combatants and 1,200 civilians were excuse me 400 combatants and 800
26:55
civilians were killed. Let's hypothetically say 1,200 combatants were killed. Do you think the
27:04
reaction of Israelis would be any less indignant? Mhm. Do you think the international community
27:11
would be any less supportive of Israel? Any less a jot less an iotaless supportive? Israel
27:23
is essentially it's a lunatic state. I think in a literal sense it's a lunatic state. It's
27:30
a delusional state. It's a genocidal state, but it's also a delusional and lunatic state.
27:38
Um, it's also a spartalike state. What does it mean in this context to refer to it as a
27:47
spartalike state? It attaches more value to a combatant death than it does to a civilian
27:52
death. If they had killed 1,200 IDF soldiers, the reaction would have been more, not less insane.
28:09
So I find that distinction look uh there are the laws so-called laws of war it's
28:16
called IHL international humanitarian law there are the laws of war which
28:25
uh I am obliged to acknowledge their existence and that they have to be respected. I get that.
28:36
However, there are aspects of the laws of war which I don't really personally
28:43
accept. I recognize they exist and they have to be obeyed, but I don't accept them. So,
28:53
I don't accept the idea that the militants in Gaza are deserving targets of death because they're
29:00
quote unquote combatants. I don't really accept that. They're young men age. Most of them are ages
29:10
18 to 22 because they wouldn't have volunteered for the mission if they had families at home
29:17
because it was a suicide mission. They knew they weren't going to come back except for the ones who took hostages. But they knew most of them weren't going to come back. And given that Hamas was a
29:26
large enough organization, those who had family responsibilities probably weren't volunteers in
29:32
the mission. Maybe those who had loved ones killed and wanted to be on the mission, but in general,
29:38
it's going to be the younger people who didn't aren't leaving a family behind. Why did they
29:44
deserve to die? Because they didn't want to be they didn't want to forfeit our lives to languish
29:50
and die in a concentration camp. Yeah, I don't accept that. I don't think I in my opinion the
29:56
Israelis say everybody in Gaza is not innocent. And I'll take the other view. I think everybody
30:04
in Gaza is innocent. That's my view. Yeah. Everybody deserves a life. Everybody deserves
30:13
a life. It was said of Nat Turner. Nat Turner was a very smart guy. Everybody agreed on that. Yeah,
30:22
white and black. Nat Turner was a very smart guy. M and they said of Nat Turner there was this huge
30:29
chasm abyss empty space between what he aspired to be in this his only earthly existence and what he
30:43
can expect to be which is just to be born to live and to die a slave. And that was at the core of
30:58
what animated Nat Turner to organize the revolt. I think everybody in Gaza has a right to live. I
31:10
don't accept that. I don't accept the distinction between combatants and civilians. I recognize as
31:18
a legal matter, but as a moral matter, no. I don't accept it. They had no options. They
31:25
had no options. And if anyone wants to show me an option, Yes, it's true. Probably. Yeah. Uh
31:35
uh if if Hamas forfeited power uh would would they have had an option? If Hamas had for forfeited
31:51
power, Gaza would have gone back to what it was before January 2006, which Gear Island said in
31:58
2004 was a concentration camp. Yeah. I mean, because of course um the West, America, UK,
The West’s language
32:07
uh Europe, they tend to exceptionalize um uh Hamas violence or resistance violence. So they
32:14
see Palestinian resistance within an immoral and univilized context. I mean, you know, I'm from the UK and uh we hear this all the time from the previous
32:23
foreign secretary, David Lammy, uh who would talk about the barbarism of October the 7th and
32:29
the savagery and and and we see that throughout that that language is used in America, in Europe,
32:35
um uh from your perspective, I mean, is there anything exceptional about
32:41
Palestinian resistance that places them within those categories? Yes, it's in terms of numbers,
32:50
it's relatively trivial. There's no question a killing of a significant magnitude occurred. On
33:01
October 7th, I am not going to in any way pretend otherwise. I don't I don't think there's evidence
33:09
to support the claims that most of the deaths were caused by Israelis in implementing the Hannibal
33:16
uh doctrine. I don't believe there's significant I don't believe there's evidence to support that
33:22
significantly affected the death toll. Um but I think what's the number? The number is something
33:33
like 30 children were killed on October 7th. I think that's the figure around 30
33:41
now about 30,000 Grojan have been killed by Israel. Yeah. So to speak of and not
33:51
collateral damage if you look at the latest commission of inquiry report uh UN commission
34:00
of inquiry report also by Na'vi play there were many reports I think there are five now.
34:06
Um if you look at the latest Israel is routinely routinely uh targeting
34:15
uh children in the head in the skull and in the chest. So there's nothing
34:28
that distinguishes what Israel has done from what Hamas did except the numbers. I mean,
34:37
we're talking about, you know, the expression at some point magnitude or quantity turns into
34:44
quality. Well, when you go from 30 to 30,000, we're talking about a different phenomenon.
34:52
Um, so I don't attach even at the most crude level, even at the most most crude level,
35:03
you know, at the sophisticated level, you you could say, well, there's a difference between
35:08
using uh between targeting civilians and uh between targeting civilians and civilians
35:18
being killed in collateral damage. And I'm not going to go into that uh right now,
35:24
but this is targeting children and it's not new. It was already I mean I I go back I I go back as
35:36
far as the first inif father in 1987. During the first inifada uh they uh the policy was the force
35:49
might and beatings. That was the declared policy of the then defense minister Yitsak Rabin and
35:56
force might and beatings meant you went around and you broke the bones of children. It was the
36:02
children throwing the stones and it was a policy of force might and beatings. So this this sadistic
36:12
behavior against children is not something new and it's not even controversial. The you might
36:20
recall about a half year ago was the um head of the oppos one of the leaders of the opposition
36:29
in Israel. He said the Israeli soldiers, the IDF, they kill children as a hobby. That was the
36:38
expression he used. and he doubled down on it, but then the, you know, there was the um uproar and he
36:46
was forced to retract. But of course, everybody knows they're doing that. Everybody knows they're
36:52
killing children as a hobby. Can I ask you about um the Abraham Accords because you mentioned that
Abraham Accords
36:59
October 7th um prior to that, I mean, all the talk was about Saudi Arabia joining the Abraham
37:05
Accords. I mean, do you think that in a sense the Abraham Accords, at least the extension of those
37:11
accords is is now at, you know, if not on pause over. I mean, have they? No, not at all. I think
37:18
it's going to happen. The Saudis are still I mean the Saudis have one the Saudis wanted to have the
37:28
US and Israel um pull their chestnuts out of the fire because they were concerned about the axis
37:37
of resistance. Yeah. Now two considerations two new considerations have come into play.
37:45
First of all, the axis of resistance has been significantly undermined. Yeah. So the fear
37:52
em emanating from Iran and its allies has significantly diminished. True. And the
38:02
other side is Israel has made clear that we're in charge in this region. You have only one role to
38:10
play as slaves, as our slaves. And that was the message with the attack on Qatar that nowhere is
38:19
off limits to us. Anyone gets out of line, we will put you in your place. And so there is a there's
38:28
got to be a rational concern the part of the Saudis that maybe we're making Israel too strong.
38:35
We wanted to use Israel against Iran, but now maybe Israel is getting too strong and uh we will
38:45
simply be in the position of their their slaves. So I think there probably reservations on the
38:54
part of Iran now about how far to go with this normalization. Can you comment on on Trump's um
Trump’s plan
39:03
21point plan, you know, this announcement that uh and supposedly with the backing of Qatar and other
39:10
other Muslim countries? Um I mean, how from two perspectives and how viable do you think this this
39:16
possible agreement is and and and secondly, what does it really mean tangibly for for Palestinians?
39:24
Uh first of all there was a famous Hungarian Marxist thinker named George Lucash and Lucash
39:33
once commented that we have to always see the present as history. We have to see things in their
39:39
historical context. Yeah. With the exception of presidents Obama and Biden with those two
39:47
exceptions. Every president has a peace plan for the Palestinians since Jimmy Carter. Yeah. Jimmy
39:55
Carter's was the uh framework, comprehensive framework for peace. There were two aspects
40:01
of the Carter uh Jimmy Carter years. There was the big proposal and then there was the Israel
40:09
um Egypt peace treaty which was signed in um 1979. But there was a separate one
40:17
uh the comprehensive framework in 1977 and then it spawned the or one of its offshoots was the
40:28
Israel Egypt treaty. Yeah. I won't go into the details now uh unless you're curious. Uh after
40:38
uh Jimmy Carter, there was the Reagan peace plan for the Palestinians allegedly in 1982. Then under
40:49
the George Bush senior administration, there were the Madrid talks to resolve the Israel Palestine
41:00
conflict. Yeah. in Clinton because Clinton, Bill Clinton, William Clinton, Bill, whatever,
41:09
uh, Bill Clinton succeeds George Bush senior. There is the Oslo Accords of 1993 and then the
41:18
Oslo Accords climax in 2000 with the negotiations at Camp David. After Clinton comes Bush, President
41:34
Bush Jr. and then it's so funny because nobody's ever even heard of any of this, but that's been
41:42
my mate, so I know them all. There was, this was very hood. There was the President Bush W. Bush.
41:51
There was his road map to peace. Yeah. And then the road map to peace climaxes in the Annapapolis
42:00
talks which were chaired by then uh secretary of state condolita rice. Then comes the Obama years
42:11
and probably Obama's only achievement in office was that he had no peace plan. [Laughter] That's
42:21
about his only achievement. Yeah. Then came Trump, the first Trump. Uh there was a Trump peace ban.
42:28
I I had completely forgotten, but I'm not sure if it was in this first Yeah, I think they mentioned
42:34
in 2020 there was a Trump. I have no recollection of it. I was just reading some stuff and they this
42:41
Trump plan. Oh, yeah. It's in the new plan. They mentioned the Trump peace plan. I don't even remember it. Um and then Biden Biden didn't have a peace plan. He just had a genocide plan.
42:52
um which is probably the only honest thing by a US president. Uh and now we have another plan.
43:00
If you compare the the various plans, I would say this one has to be the silliest really. You know,
43:08
you don't want you don't want to uh just flippantly denigrate it because people,
43:18
you know, there's a genocide going on. A quarter of Gaza is is living in famine
43:24
right now and every day hundreds or every day at least 100 or more people are killed. Um
43:36
but if you look at it what what is there to say about number one the plan has only one timetable.
43:48
There's only one that is
43:54
Hamas has 72 hours to accept it. That's the only there's no timetable in the plan. Hamas
44:03
has 72 hours to accept it or uh President Trump gives the green light to annihilate Gaza. Well,
44:11
it's a little late in the day for that. They got the green light under Biden. Um so there is no
44:21
timetable. Number two, everything that Israel is obliged to do is contingent on Hamas disarming.
44:36
How do you prove Hamas disarmed? How do you prove that? If Israel says Hamas is still armed or
44:45
uh there are 10,000 Hamas militants who are hiding are still in hiding. How do you prove that's not
44:52
true? Right now Israel is saying that it's uh flattening Gaza city because that's where Hamas
45:00
is has regrouped. What's the evidence for that? Is it does anyone even believe it that the reason
45:08
they're flattening Gaza city is because Hamas is in sconce there? Does anyone even believe it? So
45:18
it talks at one point it says before the Hamas is released the two sides will retreat to an agreed
45:28
upon line. What line? Yeah. And what happens if they don't agree on the line? Who decides
45:38
where the line is? Then it says, if you look at point 16, it says that there will be no Israeli
45:49
redeployment anywhere unless it agrees that Hamas has been disarmed. Otherwise, we're not moving.
45:58
M so it's built into the plan that Hamas doesn't have to excuse me Israel doesn't
46:06
have to redeploy anywhere. Then it says in one of, you know, one of its h happier passages,
46:14
it says all humanitarian, the UN uh will have free reign to bring in humanitarian
46:22
goods at least at the level they say of the first ceasefire of January 17th, 2025. But
46:30
then it has a stipulation. The UN agencies can't be partial to either side. Well, there
46:41
goes ENRA because Israel has already declared ENRA is pro Hamas. So, UNRA can participate.
46:53
Um the bottom line as I see it is there's a cliche every crisis is an opportunity. Yeah.
47:05
Okay. There's no question October 7th was a crisis for Israel. I don't I don't think we
47:11
should downplay deny it. But it was also an opportunity. The opportunity was for once and
47:18
for all to solve the Gaza question. And one of the interesting things when I was reading the
47:26
latest UN Commission of Inquiry report because it concludes that Israel is engaging in genocide. If
47:34
you look at the statements that were made on October 7th, if you look at the statements,
47:42
we're going to reduce Gaza to rubble. That's what they said. We're going to reduce Gaza to Rabbu.
47:48
They said there's no distinction between civilians and combatants. They said we're going to deny any
47:55
food, water, fuel, or electricity from entering Gaza. Now, way back then, two years ago, when I
48:05
said, if you look at these statements, these are genocidal statements. They're not ambiguous. So
48:12
the defense was that they said it in the spur of the moment because of the horror of October 7th.
48:21
We shouldn't take them literally. They were so shocked. They were so traumatized. But rereading
48:27
those statements because they're included in that new commission of inquiry report. What struck me
48:33
was that's exactly what happened. Exactly what they said they were going to do on October 7th.
48:40
It's exactly what they did. Gaza was reduced to rubble. The civilian population was targeted.
48:47
Food was not let in. Starvation was being used as a method of war. Famine was artificially induced.
48:58
Those weren't spurof the- moment statements. That was an opportunity. They realized it quickly and
49:06
they proceeded to systematically, methodically um act on it. They're not letting go of that goal.
49:17
That's not going to happen. For them, this was a once ina-lifetime opportunity. If you
49:24
know the history of the conflict, over and over again, they were looking for a pretext to expel
49:30
the population. Actually the main concern was to expel the population from the from the West Bank.
49:37
They were looking and and it looked like it looked like in 2003 uh when the war in Iraq began that it
49:46
may happen during the war in Iraq. It looked like it was going to happen in 1991 during the first
49:53
attack on Iraq. Yeah. There was speculation that um they were going to um excuse me, speculation
50:03
that they were going to expel the Palestinians. Yes. Now they had the opportunity. October 7th was
50:11
a godsend for Israel. It was a godsend to solve the Gaza question. They clinged to it. They're not
50:22
going to relent. That's why there are passages where it might surprise you. It says, "We want
50:30
Palestinians to stay." The Trump plan says, "Yeah, we want Palestinians to stay. We want to They've
50:42
suffered enough. We want to rebuild a new Gaza." That's what they keep calling it, a new Gaza.
50:50
and Netanyahu could sign on to everything because he's not giving anything. I don't think whether
50:59
Hamas will accept not that Hamas has any choice and not not as even Hamas is a um a factor. I
51:10
don't believe Hamas is a factor in any of this to tell you the truth. Yeah, they probably know
51:15
where the hostages are held. Actually, I think probably Israel knows where the hostages are
51:23
held. Really? I don't see I'm not a military person, but they know exactly which hostages
51:34
they're exactly which hostages. Okay, they know they're missing, but it also you get the impression,
51:47
I could be wrong, they know where they are, which makes you wonder why they don't just carry out a commando operation, but I could be mistaken uh on that point. In any event, um
52:02
maybe there will be a hostage. Maybe Hamas will agree to it out of desperation. Really, what are
52:08
its options? Uh but that's as far as it'll go. You don't think Netanyahu really cares for the plan
52:14
still goes ahead of clearing Gaza? Well, there's no plans. Oh, yeah. He will continue. Their goal
52:21
is very simple. To clear out Gaza. Yeah. To clear out Gaza. And we have to make a distinction. Their
52:29
actual objective Their actual objective is ethnic cleansing. But they're using genocidal means.
52:42
Yeah. To achieve the ethnic cleansing objective. If you look at the definition of um uh genocide,
52:53
it's it's the intent to destroy in whole or in part a racial, ethnic, national, religious group.
53:03
Um, yes. Their intent is to destroy a in whole or in part whatever it takes. Yeah.
53:13
By hook or by crook to destroy in whole or in part the population of Gaza in order to
53:24
achieve its ethnic cleansing. So even though I personally don't believe that's their goal,
53:32
not that they care much, if they could nuke Gaza, they would. But there are it's an international
53:39
system. You operate within constraints and nobody yet is giving a green light to nuke
53:47
Gaza. If they could kill everybody in Gaza, you know, if they could kill everybody in Gaza,
53:54
it won't even be with any remorse because, as I said, Israel is a completely lunatic and
54:02
delusional state and society. A delusional state and society. If you take the case of the Germans
54:13
during World War II, there was a recognition very deep in the psyche, but there was a recognition,
54:28
very deep, that they're doing a wrong, they're committing a wrong. So in 1943 uh Himmler,
54:41
one of the masterminds that of the extermination, Hinrich Himmler, he gives a famous speech at Posen
54:49
P O Sen. And in the speech he says literally poor us poor us meaning Germans that we were burdened
55:04
by history to solve the Jewish question to rid the world of the Jews. poor us that history had put on
55:15
our shoulders the ownorous task of killing the Jews. Israel has no recognition of that. There's
55:26
no feeling of an ownorous task. If you look at the Nuremberg proceedings after the war against
55:36
the May Nazi war criminals, those who survived uh Guring committed suicide, Hitler committed
55:44
suicide. Uh but uh Himmler Himmler committed suicide. Uh but uh I said Guring, excuse me,
55:55
Gerbles committed suicide. Hitler committed suicide. Himmler, my memory is he was captured and
56:03
then he had a capsule and he committed suicide. But there were ranking officers at the Nuremberg
56:10
trials. There was Guring the Air Force general and you know top person uh and several others uh about
56:17
12 I can't remember now. In any event, during the hearings, the proceedings, it was a trial,
56:26
they were found guilty in hung with one exception, the banker shocked. Uh they had news reels of the
56:37
concentration camps. Okay? They had news and uh the Nazis in the dock, they covered their eyes
56:50
like they were ashamed. They knew what was going on. Of course. Yeah. But they at least there was
56:59
a faint recognition that a wrong had been done. That's not the Israelis. They kill children for
57:08
target practice as a hobby. There's no recognition at all. There's no no recognition at all. So for
57:16
them, it's an opportunity. They're not going to let go of it. There's nothing in the nothing
57:22
in the um uh Trump plan that's going to force them to let go of it if they get the hostages
57:31
released. And he doesn't want, you know, Netanyahu doesn't want the hostages released. It's a good PR thing for their uh their uh apologists abroad to say it's about uh the hostages. So he prefers
57:46
the Hamas say no because if Hamas says no then is Trump has given the green light for annihilation.
57:52
Um so but you know maybe Hamas will decide what's the point and let them go and in which cases he'll
58:02
just fabricate a pretext. But we said a Hamas had to be disarmed. And according to our intelligence,
58:08
there still 10,000 militants uh who have weapons and we're not going to withdraw until, you know,
58:15
the usual. Yeah, we would know. I mean, we would know by the time the the show goes out. Um it
Tony Blair’s role
58:22
wasn't clear. It said 72 hours. Yeah. But does the Israeli Knesset formally have to accept the
58:30
agreement? Yeah. I I wasn't sure. And the role of Tony Blair here, Tony Blair's role in in this as
58:37
some sort of viceroy of of Gaza. Tony Blair, he's an imitation of Bill Clinton. You know, there was
58:44
the Bill Clinton Foundation and the Bill Clinton Foundation was basically influence peddling.
58:51
Uh all the corrupt dictators in the world gave money, well, it's true. It's a fact. gave money
58:57
to the Clinton Foundation so as to ensure that uh Clinton will exercise his formidable power because
59:08
uh he's a true political animal. I there are some presidents who had don't have a political bone or
59:14
body. They were just uh they were just um actors. That was Reagan. That was um George Bush Jr. and
59:27
that was Obama. None of them had any political bone in the body. But Clinton, both husband
59:34
and wife, they never retreated from political life. They're commenting on everything. They're
59:41
political animals. Same thing was true of Cheney, excuse me, uh the vice president under George
59:48
Bush Jr. He didn't stop talking because that's who he was. He was a political animal. Um, so,
59:57
uh, Clinton invented this influence peddling thing called the Clinton Foundation. And now
1:00:03
Blair and Blair has his own. He just collects checks for peddling influence. Yes. And um, he
1:00:10
will he has no commitment what he'll do. Probably my guess is he'll do nothing. I like he'll do harm
1:00:21
wherever he can. He'll do harm. We already know Mr. um uh Blair, not just from the war in Iraq.
1:00:31
I mean Blair in any world would be hanging from the Eiffel Tower. He wouldn't be hanging from the highest lampost in the world. He'd be hanging from the life Eiffel Tower. He's a mass murderer.
1:00:44
you know, Kofi Anan, who was the secretary general, secretary general of the UN during
1:00:51
the attack on Iraq. It took him a long time, I think, until he he it was not until he left office
1:00:58
when he finally said it was an illegal war. Well, if it's an illegal war, then Tony Blair stands uh
1:01:04
um charged with and guilty of a war of aggression um which is under international law considered the
1:01:14
supreme crime, the crime of aggression. So Tony Bolair belongs as I said strung up from the Eiffel
1:01:21
Tower at the peak uh of the of the Eiffel Tower. Um, but I I don't think actually I don't even
1:01:30
believe we're going to get that far. [Music] Who's going to be part of this international
1:01:36
stabilization force? Who who wants that job? Who's going to volunteer? There are a few things in the
1:01:43
Trump plan which sounded true. Like they said, this one I liked. They're going to have Egypt
1:01:50
and Jordan train a local police force in Gaza. You know, just like they trained the Palestinian
1:02:01
Authority security forces. We know exactly what that training is going to be. You know, 10 10
1:02:08
ways to torture your uh victims. Yes. 10 ways to torture your detainees. That sounded like Yeah.
1:02:18
They'll probably attempt that. But um an international stabilization force,
1:02:25
who's going to go in? I don't know who's going to volunteer troops. Saudis? No, that doesn't
1:02:32
sound very plausible. Uh Baharin, I don't think that's going to happen. Emirates, I don't think
1:02:39
that's going to happen. Qatar, they're going to send Qataris in this international stabilization
1:02:44
force that they're talking about. All of it is just fiction. And can I can I ask you finally,
MAGA shifting?
1:02:50
is Israel losing the narrative war here in America? Um I mean not just on I mean there
1:02:56
is obviously a a ground swell of support now amongst young uh left-leaning Americans but also
1:03:02
very interestingly amongst the right you know you've spoken to Candace. So in Tucker Carlson
1:03:07
you have got this growing anti-Israel anti-ionism maybe within within MAGA circles. I mean can you
1:03:14
comment on on that shift in public opinion? There are um couple of things to say. First of all there
1:03:26
are shifts in public opinion but then the question is will they have an enduring impact. Netanyahu
1:03:34
counts on the fact that people forget which is true. Most people do forget and he counts on the
1:03:42
fact that yes, Israel is going to have to weather the storm of or weather the repercussions of its
1:03:51
genocide in Gaza. It'll last a few years. He recognizes that. But for for Netanyahu,
1:03:58
he's a true believer. He's a true believer. He's a he believes in Jews are superior. that
1:04:07
uh everybody else is insignificant next to the Jews. Uh he's a a real true believer.
1:04:15
He's a he's a complete he's a Nazi uber mench. He believes in uber mench was you know uh um supermen
1:04:26
and then there are the mench the subhumans and Netanyahu the Jews are the uber mench
1:04:33
uber mention and everybody else not just Arabs. Yeah, black people. Uh, his father B, his father,
1:04:41
uh, Ben Zeon Netanyahu was just the most disgusting racist against black people. Uh, so
1:04:52
he's a true believer and he wants to be remembered as the liberator of the land of Israel, of Erits,
1:04:59
Israel, the liberator. And he counts on the fact that you know you take the case of the United
1:05:04
States. Every American president was implicated in the extermination and exposion of the Native
1:05:11
American population. Every American president up until the beginning of the 20th century. Did
1:05:17
it affect their reputations? Any of them. Do we remember that George Washington was known among
1:05:27
the Iriccoy as the town destroyer? They had a nickname for him that every American president up
1:05:34
to including Lincoln was involved in the exposion of the Cherokee Indians in our country. No, you
1:05:41
know they you know the cliche it's the victors who write the history and he counts on the fact that
1:05:50
killing off the native population will be seen as a footnote. It will be seen as mo at most a
1:05:57
footnote. So he counts on people forgetting I would say and here it's more an intuition than
1:06:07
I can prove. There is on the left a uh left and you might call it progressive part of the
1:06:22
population a genuine identification with the sufferings the martyrdom of the Palestinians.
1:06:32
Um, I think there's very little anti-semitism within that cohort. Even though, as I said,
1:06:42
there are some resentments of this Jewish power on the left. I get that. And there is a there
1:06:49
is throughout our society there is a tendency which becomes more and more pronounced with time
1:06:58
of conspiracy theories. Now, conspiracy theories have always been rife in our country. You know,
1:07:03
the uh the Kennedy assassination and there was always that it existed, but now it's become more
1:07:11
pronounced. Yeah. The conspiracy theories now on the right. On the right, yes, there has been a
1:07:25
certain sector of the Republican party. First of all, its base. The young people on the right, they
1:07:33
haven't been indoctrinated with all the Holocaust mania of the 70s and the 80s and the '9s. So,
1:07:43
and they only know one Israel. You see, you are much too young to remember, but it was a different
1:07:49
a totally different Israel when I was growing up. It was the Israel of the kibotim, the Israel of
1:07:55
the cooperatives, the Israel of being socialist. Uh, and all of the leaders of Israel pretended to
1:08:05
be so civilized and cosmopolitan. Uh, that Israel is gone. I mean, what the young people see are
1:08:12
monsters. They see monsters. So there's been a disaection among the base to which apparently
1:08:22
Charlie Kirk was reacting. He recognized that his wholehearted support for Israel was problematic
1:08:29
with his base. But I think there's another element. Look, the right-wing has always been a
1:08:34
um always harbored anti-semitism. And I think some some of what's coming out of the right is tinged
1:08:42
with anti-semitism. Um, I don't want to name names because I don't want to get involved in these
1:08:52
internet uh, gotcha moments. And uh, what's the expression they use? You don't want to go viral. I
1:09:02
don't want to go viral. And what's the expression they use for these? Uh, clickbait. Clickbait. Yes.
1:09:09
Quotes. But sometimes I I I'm not a web person, but sometimes I listen and I hear these conspiracy
1:09:18
theories about Israel killed JFK. No, Israel was such a backwater in 1963. It was a very poor
1:09:27
country. I know it's hard for you to imagine that it was a very, very poor country in the idea they
1:09:35
would kill JFK is so crazy. But you read it now. you read it now. So, and that's the, you know,
1:09:43
the anti-semitic Jewish conspiracy theories, uh, which I think a lot of what you see in the right
1:09:53
is tinged with that. The problem is that Jews are acting in a way that lends credibility to it.
1:10:04
When you hear about these people like Bill Aman gathering at the Hamptons with web influencers and
1:10:17
they're all being paid to do their job. Yeah. Uh Charlie Kirk had big Jewish backers. you know, it
1:10:28
then lends credibility to a sinister international Jewish conspiracy. So, I think that tendency has
1:10:43
always existed on the right. Yeah. Uh there's been aspects of it on the left, but I don't consider I
1:10:50
don't believe they have been significant. uh but on the right they have been significant and um I
1:10:59
think there's you know could say there's a problem problem there. It's not the number one problem but
1:11:06
uh there is a a a problem there. Uh and uh I think if you do believe there's a problem, the best way
1:11:16
to respond to that problem is to denounce what Israel is doing. Yeah. Openly. maybe Jewish to
1:11:23
denounce what Israel is doing. And I I'd say the Jewish as it were performance since October 7th,
1:11:31
it's been good. It's been good. At the beginning two years ago, the major demonstrations, the one
1:11:40
that got had the most media were organized uh by Jewish organizations, Jewish Voices for Peace.
1:11:50
Uh what's the other one called? Not in our Name maybe. Yes. I'm not I can't remember. Yeah,
1:11:56
they were good. They were good. Um but yes, there has obviously been a shift in public
1:12:07
opinion. If it weren't for October 7th, there's no way Mam Dani, this is New York after all.
1:12:16
There's no way the Mam Dani could be would have won a primary with his political views at the
1:12:24
time. There's no way. Uh now all the burden has been shifted to those who refuse to uh support
1:12:37
Dani like Charles Schumer, Hakee Jeff. Why aren't they endorsing Manny? So the burden has fallen on
1:12:46
them. And when Governor Hokll endorsed Mandani, she said we she kept saying we have differences of
1:12:55
opinion. But she didn't dare say over Israel. She can't even say you can't even say it now. Yes. You
1:13:04
disagree with Manny on Israel. So that was another another repercussion of October 7th. Uh but I'm
1:13:18
I'm decidedly of the opinion there are no silver linings in a genocide. So I'm not going to do a
1:13:25
balance sheet whether more good or bad came of October 7th. Uh a genocide has no silver linings.
1:13:34
I will acknowledge other things happened but they don't mitigate what has been done to the people of
1:13:43
Gaza. Thank you so much Dr. Norman Finkelstein. Thank you so much for your time today. You're
1:13:48
welcome. Thank you. Please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head
1:13:55
over to our website thinkingmuslim.com to sign up to my weekly newsletter. Nothing.