Ep 267. - Is the Kaaba safe in Saudi Hands? | Omar Abdulaziz
This week on The Thinking Muslim, we speak with Omar Abdulaziz, the Saudi dissident and activist whose phone was hacked using Israeli spyware technology for criticising the Saudi regime. In this wide-ranging conversation, we discuss Mohammed bin Salman’s Vision 2030, the drive toward normalisation with Israel, and the kingdom’s tightening grip over religion and dissent. We also ask a crucial question: is the Kaaba safe in Saudi hands?
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
Once you're releasing this video, I don't think that you would have the ability to do anymore. People should know what's really going on exactly in Saudi Arabia. Few months before he was killed,
0:10
the Saudi government sent two uh people to convince me to go back to the country. But
0:15
I did click on that link and they hacked my phone using an Israeli technology. Pegasus
0:21
NPS is trying to please the Zionists. NBS, he gave $2 billion to Jared Kushner. This is the
0:28
son-in-law of Donald Trump. Yeah. Donald Trump. Yeah. And Jared Kushner invested the $2 billion in Israel. Let's let's go back to 2016 where NBS launched his Saudi 2030 vision, right? Why people
0:40
aren't believing in your vision? Why people aren't investing in Saudi Arabia? Every single Muslim,
0:45
he should oppose what's going on in Saudi. Is the holy place of Mecca? Is it safe in Saudi hands?
0:55
Omar Abdaziz asalam allayikum and welcome to the thinking Muslim. It's great to have you with us
1:03
Omar. Now today we're going to talk about Saudi Arabia your country. Uh and I think it's fair
1:08
to say uh you would be regarded now as to be a dissident of Saudi Arabia like many. There
1:14
are so many uh at the moment living in London and America and Canada uh who have left Saudi
1:20
Arabia in the last few years. Uh so I really want to talk about what is happening in the kingdom.
1:26
Uh why we need to care as Muslims as human beings. Why we need to care about uh the uh
1:35
current state of affairs in Saudi Arabia and the state of mind maybe or the policy agenda of the
1:41
uh de facto leader of Saudi Arabia Muhammad bin Salman. Um I suppose my first question for you
1:48
Omar is is really a question that I think is close to all of our hearts. Is the holy place of Mecca
Kaaba safe in Saudi?
1:56
the Kaba is it safe in Saudi hands? That's uh that's a tough question honestly. Yeah, actually,
2:03
you know, I would say that uh if you want to go to Saudi Arabia to do Hajra, you might be safe
2:11
as long as that you haven't been criticizing the the Saudi royal family or NBS. Do I have
2:18
a chance? Not after this episode. I don't think so. No. Yeah. Once you're releasing this video,
2:27
I don't think that you would have the ability to do anymore. I hope that you did. I have. Yes.
2:33
Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah. You did the waj now. So the rest inshallah the sunnah inshallah in the
2:38
in the in the coming years. Who knows things might change. Yeah. But uh yeah uh so many people they
2:46
they believe that if they would go to Saudi Arabia to do hajra they would be safe. But then because
2:52
they tweeted something in 2011 2012 uh some of them got arrested some of them were severely
3:01
tortured some of them they're banned you know few years ago I wouldn't tell you that things were
3:08
perfect but nowadays we're experiencing more you know stupid things happening back there in Saudi
3:14
Arabia like someone who raised the Palestinian flag as an example he was arrested then they
3:20
kicked him out of the country. They said, "Okay, you're not welcome in Saudi anymore." Some people who tweeted something about Abd Fatisi, the leader of Egypt or or something regarding
3:30
what's happening between Israel and Palestine or uh some of them I I I know that there was a guy
3:38
who was kicked out of the country. He wanted to do Hajj or stuff by that time and then they found
3:46
that he was criticizing MBS and his relations with Donald Trump and Jared Kushner. They said
3:53
that you're not welcome in Saudi. Alhamdulillah. He only spent two weeks in prison. Alhamdulillah.
4:01
Yeah. I think he had uh a British citizenship or US or something. you know if he's Pakistani
4:09
or Hindi or Somali or Saudi or Egyptian he would spend like at least 2 three four years in prison.
4:17
So what is happening to religion in Saudi Arabia to Islam in Saudi Arabia because we hear fragments
4:24
uh about uh the the way in which uh the crown prince MBS is liberalizing uh the social scene
Saudi liberalising Islam?
4:33
in Saudi Arabia. What is the truth of that? Ah let's let's go back to 2016 where MBS launched his
4:40
uh Saudi vision, Saudi 2030 vision, right? Where he believed that diversifying the economy is the
4:49
pillar of his vision. And he said with the current stats that we have in Saudi Arabia,
4:56
we're not going to convince foreign investors uh tourists to come to our country. And uh yes,
5:05
that's a good thing that we shouldn't rely on oil. We should diversify the economy. But again,
5:12
I'm always asking some of my my my friends who are not from Saudi Arabia, who haven't been in Saudi,
5:20
what's the point of uh bringing Jennifer Lopez dancing half naked in Ja than telling me that
5:27
this is the way that we are going, this is the only way that we're going to tell the world that we're changing. M what's the point of bringing Iggy Aalia to uh insult prophets or insult God
5:39
and bow down bow down to the goddess or something like that. Uh I don't believe that there's a white
5:48
guy from Liverpool would travel all the way from Liverpool to Jida to watch uh uh uh Jennifer Lopez
5:55
dancing there. No one is going to do that. And again, okay, let's talk numbers. What about your
6:01
uh foreign investors? How many billions have you raised? Why people aren't believing in you? Why
6:07
people aren't believing in your vision? Why people aren't investing in Saudi Arabia? Right? You tried
6:13
all all these things. You tried to they're claiming that he's opening the the country
6:18
and he's changing the society blah blah blah. But what's the point of that? I don't think that has
6:24
anything to do with the economy. M I do believe that he believes Embias himself he believes that
6:30
this is the best way to secure the throne really he's trying to uh uh protect his future and I
6:41
don't know maybe some people told him that you know this is the best way to protect yourself if you're going to please the Americans if you're going to please the westerns if you're going to
6:50
please the Israelis this is the best way this is the best option for view to remain in the throne
6:57
for for decades. H how so I mean obviously we know Saudi Arabia to be a very let's say conservative
Vision 2030
7:03
or religious based society. I mean how does vision 2030 and the work of uh the entertainment industry
7:11
led by uh Turkey al- Alashik how does that u help in consolidating his rule? A few days ago, there
7:20
was a comedy show, comedy event in Saudi Arabia, a huge one. They spent millions of dollars to invite
7:27
so many comedians, right? One of them, he's uh I think he's an atheist exjew or something. And
7:34
he was in a podcast on an interview with uh in one of these podcast where he was joking about,
7:42
okay, if I would go to Saudi, I would draw Muhammad. Hah. And everyone started to laugh.
7:48
This guy was invited. Turkey himself retweeted that tweet claiming that this comedian is coming
7:57
to Saudi Arabia. What's the point of that? Yeah. Imagine if that person was criticizing
8:04
NBS regarding killing uh journalists or executing journalists or activists, would they send him an
8:15
invitation? Would he go to Saudi? Would he perform freely? He wouldn't. He wouldn't.
8:22
He wouldn't be invited to the country. What's the point of bringing these people? You know, if that
8:31
person would say something similar in a even a western country in in the United Kingdom or in
8:37
the United States or in in France, so many people are going to protest that. Yeah. So many people
8:42
are going to say this person shouldn't be there or you he shouldn't be invited. But you are bringing
8:48
him into Saudi Arabia. You should be the protector of Islam. You should be the you are the custodian
8:56
of the two holy mosques. And imagine someone is insulting the prophet peace be upon him. Yeah.
9:02
And you're sending him a a ticket to go to to make some jokes in your country. That's that's that's
9:09
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Visit btml. us/thinkingmuslim to learn more and give. So, is the agenda anti-religion? I mean,
Saudi anti-religion?
11:04
is the agenda simply to remove religion as a cornerstone of Saudi society? They're keeping
11:12
some parts of the religion, right? Especially, I would say, the the the Jamis version of of Islam.
11:19
Mhm. Cuz yes. Yes. We are Salafi in Saudi Arabia. Yes. And so many scholars who are in prison are
11:25
Salis too. But I mean they're keeping and they're protecting the jam or the matali
11:30
virgin of Islam. So the the king the leader of the country he's allowed to do whatever he wants.
11:41
But he's the Omra at the end of the day. Yes. He's the leader of our country. You don't have the right to judge him. You don't have the right to uh uh uh criticize him. You don't have
11:52
the right to say anything against him even with your hearts. Really? Yeah. One of the scholars
11:59
uh I forgot his name maybe Salan or something. He said even with your heart you cannot even
12:04
criticize the the leader of our country. This version of Islam that's good. That's helpful
12:11
for NPS. That's helpful for for because they would do whatever they want. The madali version
12:17
of Islam. The madal. Explain that to us. Ah that's that's a long story you know this is
12:22
like school it's it comes from where they do believe that he sent by God and who are we to
12:31
judge that you know you have to go and pray you have to be patient you cannot protest against
12:37
him you cannot criticize him you cannot judge him and one of them he had like a funny you know in
12:44
a very funny and and and shocking video where he was saying that He's able to stay there to
12:52
stay on the throne even if he is committing zena for half an hour in front of front of everyone.
12:58
I'm sorry to say that. I don't know why he he he mentioned 30 minutes or or half an hour. I don't
13:03
know why. What's the reason behind that? But he he he mentioned that. Yes. Yeah. He said, "Okay, well has the right to do that. Even if he's doing that, you don't have the right to judge him. You
13:11
don't have the right to criticize him." This is the version of Islam that they're looking for. And again you can find also the matalis the jamis uh uh when when when you look at what's going on
13:25
in Gaza today so many of them are telling us you know people of Gaza shouldn't fight they should
13:31
give up they shouldn't resist uh the mal or the people who are fighting is they're against the
13:39
will of God subhan Allah really I don't know in this is the kind of Islam that not only
13:46
MBS wants but so many Arab leaders want so many Muslim leaders around the world they're trying to
13:52
uh uh protect these ideas to protect these this mentality uh to to pluck
14:00
people from you know telling the truth from criticizing them or to go out against their
14:06
uh um whatever they're doing. You talked about um activists, journalists, scholars in prison
Scholars in prison
14:12
like what's the extent of this? How many are there in prison? Like give us some names and what they've done. Thousands. Thousands. Really? Most of them they have done nothing. Most of them
14:29
as an example 20 years ago. 20 years ago uh when the there was some kind of cartoons being drawn
14:37
against the prophet peace be upon him and then he started to say okay guys we going tomorrow to protest against the ones who drew these pictures these images these cartoons blah
14:47
blah then they sentenced him for 20 years 20 years 20 years in prison okay in 2018
14:54
he should be released he should be released few years ago today is 2025 7 years later,
15:02
he's still in prison. Why? Because NPS doesn't want someone like him to be out. Salman,
15:08
what did he do? Nothing. Abdi. Because these are the scholars. These are the ones who are leading
15:17
our people. These are the ones who are controlling the narrative back there in Saudi Arabia. But MBas
15:23
doesn't want these people to be there. He wants he wants to silence them. He wants to keep all the
15:29
platforms under his control and anyone who's going to go against him, he's going to face the destiny
15:36
of Kashuk. I know you knew Kashuk. We'll come back to uh uh to to uh Jamal and what happened
Are they extremists?
15:45
to him. But um I just want to focus on this point here because of course we live here in I'm here in the west and there are non-Muslim journalists as well as maybe some Muslims as well who claim that
15:57
uh what NBS is really doing is locking up some of the radicals, the extremists. These are copists and of course if you use the word copist straight away you know you condone any action that
16:08
may that a government may do. Um who you know are these people extremists completely? This is false
16:16
statement cuz cuz I'm I'm telling you something. It's not about Salafies. Every single Muslim,
16:23
he should oppose what's going on in Saudi. Whether he's Salafi, he's ashar, he's Sufi, he's whatever he is. So many scholars from different from different sects. They were
16:35
opposing MBS and they are opposing him till now. Yeah. And in in the prison we don't have only Salafies we have Sunnis we have Shis we have every sing we have some seculars too so many so many so
16:47
atheists are in prison too in Saudi Arabia anyone who's going to against NBS he would face that
16:52
that that destiny but but again who's agreeing or who's supporting MBS when it comes to all
17:02
these activities happening in Saudi Arabia Mhm. Are they scholars? Are they preachers? Shakesh.
17:14
Name me one sheh, one respected scholar who is agreeing to what Embass is doing in the country.
17:22
She sudes. She sudes. He No, this is that's a good question. I I know that so many people are are bringing his name when it comes Sudes. By the way, he gave a statement few months ago where he
17:32
said that King Salman and Donald Trump leading the world into stability and peace. Oh no, you know,
17:42
so many people grow up listening to Sadis and uh so many people are, you know, have this connection
17:49
when they hear his his voice. uh they picture Har Maki, you know, but in the last few years
17:59
all of his statements when it comes to politics, subhan Allah, are completely against the Sharia,
18:09
against his beliefs, against his his friends who spent years and years with him working in so many
18:16
fields and today he's betraying him. He's not only betraying the haram, the member that he's he's
18:21
leading for decades, but he's also betraying his his brothers, his friends, his companions who are
18:27
his his his his colleagues who spent years working and studying and preaching with him. But I mean,
18:36
it's not surprising translator. I mean, that's that's that's a tough one. So a person like Sheh
18:44
Sades is misleading people and uh listening to his uh some of his some of his speeches in the last
18:54
few years when it comes to the conflict between Palestine and Israel when it comes to the Arab
19:02
Spring when it comes to the ones who are trying to get some rights in the country. We're not talking
19:08
about some social rights. We're talking about some uh political rights. We're talking about some people who are talking about their salaries, about finding jobs, finding uh uh better uh life
19:21
standards. She are calling these people. So if and and by the way, some of them they said even if
19:30
you go and protest against the British government, you're Muhammad Alisa by by the way, I don't know,
19:36
he's the leader of the Muslim something league. I don't know the name of that institution. He said
19:42
the ones who are going out and protest against the British government. These are those are I mean I
19:52
mean that's it's it's uh it's so funny because even the prime minister he wouldn't say such
20:00
a thing. M if you go out and protest against any politician here, against any party here,
20:07
no one is going to call you, it's a part of you. This is this is your right. As simple as that. But
20:12
she Muhammad Alisa is calling them because they're I I don't know. I I just mentioned that before the
20:20
mentality of the mkhalis the the jamis you know that they're prohibiting you from even you know
20:26
calling for some of your rights even if you're like American protesting against Donald Trump because he didn't do anything when it comes to Gaza or protesting against uh what's the name of
20:37
the prime minister Starmer Starmer yes that then again you're khi so imagine a white Christian
20:44
from Liverpool or from Newcastle protesting against Starmer and is uh a Christian khi.
20:52
I don't know. But like those are his words. Reform. Um obviously there have been some
Reforms
20:58
reforms that superficially at least look pretty good. I mean women weren't allowed to drive for
21:03
a very long time in Saudi Arabia. Now they're allowed to drive, right? Uh young people seem
21:08
to have at least superficially more freedoms. I mean, you know, uh, young people now have the ability to go to fine concerts and these sorts of events, but but you know, at least on TV,
21:19
you know, you hear you see it on CNN and you see it on, you know, that the West love this that young people now have the ability, you know, to to mix with one another and to to be entertained. Um,
21:30
like explain that to our audience. Okay. First of all, I'm not opposing like people going out and
21:38
celebrate and have fun and you know uh we're not opposing that. And and trust me, most of
21:43
these scholars and preachers back there in Saudi Arabia, they're not against that. But for sure, they're against coming have dance have dancing half naked and insulting prophets and gods. For
21:55
sure, they're against that comedian who's going to insult the prophet peace be upon him. But again I
22:00
would give you a question here regarding the the allowing women to drive. What happened to those
22:06
who were calling for that right? What happened to Lujin and Halul? She's still in prison. What
22:12
govern what what happened to to uh iman? What happened to Aziz and Al Ysef? They were severely
22:19
tortured in prison. And you know most of them they are secular. You're not talking about Salafis. I'm
22:26
not talking about religious female activist. What happened to them? Why? Because NBS wanted to tell
22:32
the world that I'm the one I'm the only one who's allowing that. So imagine tomorrow in the next,
22:39
you know, NBS is is at 8:00 a.m. He's changing his mind and he's telling, you know, the Saudi
22:46
people that I'm not going to allow women to drive anymore. Who's going to stop him? Yeah. Because
22:52
he believes that he's the one who gives. He's the one who takes. That's his mentality. Again,
22:59
uh another question, you know, I had I had a funny conversation with American businessman and he's a
23:05
well-connected person. He's a billionaire and he started to talk about no the country is changing,
23:11
Saudi Arabia, MBS is opening, the country, there are so many there are so many chances,
23:16
opportunities, blah blah blah. So I was listening for that conversation for at least 20 25 minutes.
23:23
I didn't want to talk and everyone was looking at me like my friends they were telling me I'm you know you should say something I said okay sir just
23:30
I have one question for you if you do believe that that things are changing
23:36
in Saudi Arabia the good ways changing like uh why don't you invest some billions there
23:47
he said well you know I have uh no I'm going to you know spend some billions there in Dubai and
23:54
maybe in in Turkey, maybe in Silicon Valley. I said, "Okay, no, no, no. Answer. Please answer
24:00
my question. Why don't you spend some billions in Saudi Arabia? Because you don't trust MBS because
24:07
you know that he's going to change his mind because you know that he takes some business from from from the owners of these business without even a signature that happened to so many people.
24:17
So he's going to take your company whether you like it or not and the next morning you're going to find yourself uh uh bankrupt because of MBS like wakes up the next morning and he deciding
24:28
this person is an enemy of the state. I'm taking away all of his wealth. As simple as that. That's
24:36
why that businessman does not want to invest his money. And most of the foreign investors they're
24:41
not going to spend their billions in a country where they do believe that the the leader of that country is not stable. Tomorrow, today we we we the cutteries are our enemy. The next day,
24:53
they are our friends, our neighbors. We like them. We love them. They're brothers. Today, we're going
25:00
to kick them out of Mecca and Medina. We're going to ban them from entering the country. We're going
25:07
to separate so many families between Saudi Arabia and Qatar. The next day, there there are brothers.
25:14
And that's that happened to so many people. that happened to Turkey in 2018 when when they were putting lots of pressure on the Saudis regarding kashuk gi that happened to prime minister Hari
25:24
that happened to the Palestinians nowadays and we go that's I think you have so many question
25:30
regarding that but I mean these are example invest your money if you believe in MBS please go and
25:36
invest your money there I dare you then what is the state of the economy because um um it does
Saudi Economy
25:44
seem like you know vision in 2030 uh is a rallying call. He's brought the country together behind
25:51
this uh this movement to to rebuild the economy. I was just looking at tourism statistics recently
25:56
and they seem to be going up. So maybe there is a you know there are um some glimmers of hope in
26:02
in the Saudi economy. No, that's that's actually it's not true because they're not showing us the
26:09
exact numbers. There's no such a transparency in the country. I cannot trust them with the numbers.
26:14
But here's the thing. If you go and read, I'll give you an example when they're talking about tourism in the country. So if you travel from Ja to Mecca, I would do that every two three weeks
26:24
while I was in Ja. That that would be counted as a one more visitor. If you would go there to Medina
26:33
and you buy from a store or something, that would be counted to. Not only that but in the past we
26:40
used to we used to talk about the religious uh uh tourism we have Makan Medina and alhamdulillah I
26:48
do believe that this is you know a huge the Saudi Arabia every single year we're making between 15
26:55
to 20 billion dollar when it comes to uh and so many millions are coming to the country and
27:01
they're doing that and we can be successful we can be more su successful when it comes to religious
27:07
uh tourism because we have Mak Medina. As simple as that. But again, if you're going to if you're
27:12
going to convince me that you're telling me that millions of people are coming from Manchester or coming from Las Vegas or coming from Beijing to visit Saudi Arabia and to see Riyad festival,
27:24
I I don't believe you and even the government cannot show these uh uh exact numbers. Let's turn
Jamal Kashoggi
27:30
to uh Jamal Kashogi. May Allah have mercy on him and be pleased with him. He he was um uh brutally
27:37
murdered in an embassy in Istanbul. You knew uh Jamal Kashogji. Um just tell me about about
27:46
that incident for those of our viewers who may not followed it. Um what happened and uh what's been
27:52
the repercussion since? Yeah. Uh before answering this question, just I suggest that you guys go and
27:59
watch the dissident. It's a documentary. You can find it in YouTube and on other platforms
28:05
regarding the story of Jamal Kashuk and my story and other uh uh activists. So Jamal uh I knew him
28:16
since he I kn I knew him since he was in Saudi in the country because he was like a public figure. Yeah. Uh a well-known journalist. Uh but I didn't have any relationship with him till
28:27
he left the country in 2017 actually. Yeah. So I was introduced by one of our friends. He told me
28:35
that Jamal wanted to call you and then I started to uh contact Jamaal Kashugi and uh he told me
28:42
once that Omar you know I didn't do a lot to the prisoners. I you know when I was in Saudi I was
28:54
silent most of the time. Today I feel that there is an obligation, there's a duty that I have to
29:01
fulfill. Uh can you help me forming or creating a website regarding those prisoners? That's that's a
29:12
project. the other project he told me that he once at at one moment he felt that when when whenever he's tweeting so many people are attacking him and his like on the in the the mansion like and
29:25
he was telling me oh you know I feel that everyone hates me and the guy said no no no you know I'll tell you the story this is what exactly happening you know what there's there are maybe 10 20 people
29:36
each one is having 10 20 accounts so once you're tweeting about something you you would see 200 300
29:43
messages at one at one time. And you think that this is the reality of the country, but this is
29:49
not this is this is not true. So he said, "Okay, can you explain more?" I explained more that the
29:54
the bees project that we were working on and he liked the idea. Uh I told him that you're not
30:03
talking about like trust me so many people like what you're what what you're saying. Yeah. What
30:09
you're talking about. Um that was the second project that we worked on and subhan Allah
30:17
um few months before he was killed uh the Saudi government sent two uh people to convince me to go
30:29
back to the country. Convince you? Yes. Really? Yeah. uh my brother Ahmed who is who's who's
30:35
in prison today he was with them and one of them they spent at at least three four days trying to
30:44
convince me trying to lure me to the Saudi embassy I said guys if you want to give me the passport
30:51
so you can do it like while I'm sitting here it's just a passport you can take a picture and because
30:57
you're telling me that you have a message from NBS they told me that we I have a message from
31:03
NBS himself. He's assuring you that he's assuring your safety. He's telling you that you're going to
31:09
be safe. You're going to to be protected. No one's going to touch you. You can go back to the country
31:14
anytime you want. But show us at least that you're trying to cooperate with us. Show us that you're
31:20
helping us by accepting the passport and come with us to the embassy. I called Japan. That was in
31:29
May, if I'm not mistaken, 2018. So 5 months before he was killed and he said watch out if you want to
31:38
meet them meet them publicly in in a public places in cafes in restaurants in parks do not go to the
31:46
Saudi embassy you know by that time if you would tell me what's the worst thing that might happen to you if you go back there I said okay maybe someone is going to insult me maybe someone's
31:55
going to slap me maybe maybe they're going to threaten me that's it I said Okay. At one moment,
32:04
one of those two messengers when I refused to go with them to the embassy, he started to cry. Yes.
32:12
He started to cry. So I said, "No, I'm sorry. I wouldn't go with you cuz you know, honestly, you
32:17
know, I didn't I didn't think by that time that they would do something stupid like killing me."
32:25
Then subhan Allah, a few days later, they left the country. Few weeks later, I received an SMS
32:32
message from DHL. I think track your package cuz I was ordering something online. And subhan Allah,
32:40
I clicked on that link. You know, by that time, if you would tell me that there is a technology that has the ability to control your phone and to go through your messages and conversations and
32:51
control the cam and the mic and everything, I will tell you. Sorry, I don't believe that. No one is
32:58
that advanced to to to to be able to even control my phone. But I did click on that link and they
33:07
hacked my phone using an Israeli technology. Pegasus. Pegasus. Yeah. NSO company. So,
33:14
uh, the Saudi government paid $50 million to get that technology. So, again, I I I said that many
33:21
times. If they would give me $1 million, I would give them the phone for free. you don't need,
33:27
you know, you don't need to like spend millions of dollars to to hack my phone. But Subhan Allah.
33:32
Yeah. Anyways, so uh at one moment that was on the 30 on the 1st of August. I was sleeping. I woke
33:43
up my phone like 20 30 missed calls from friends, relatives, family members. And one of my friends,
33:49
they entered my room. I said, "Homar, Omar, they they arrested my brother." I said, "Okay." So what
33:55
should I do for you? I mean I'm sorry for that but why you're telling me? He said but but they said because it's because of Abdaz they're arresting him. Said okay. And then I started to look into
34:06
my phone and I found so many messages missed calls. People are telling Omar please answer Omar.
34:13
Then on that day, the Saudi government started to arrest two of my brothers and large group of my
34:21
friends and they're in prison since then since 1st of August uh 2018. And they did nothing.
34:29
They did nothing. They had nothing to do with politics. Nothing to do with politics. They were
34:35
just friends. Some of them lived with me when when they were in in Canada. Uh then those two one of
34:42
of of those two messengers who came to Canada to to lure me to to convince me to go back to Saudi,
34:49
he started to negotiate terms with me. He said, "Omar, you have to give up. You have no power.
34:54
You don't have the strength. You don't have the ability to fight a government. You know,
35:00
if I were you, I would do 1 2 3 4." I said, "Okay, thank you. But I won't because I do believe that
35:07
my friends did nothing wrong." And I did nothing wrong. I had no idea what was going on. So I I
35:14
used to live with six, seven different roommates in in in a small apartment. And then I called my
35:20
closest one of them. I said, "Please, better, would you come to my room?" And my phone was
35:26
there between me and him. And I had no idea. I said, "Butter, I think one of our roommates,
35:33
he's a spy. The government knows everything. They knows every they you know the government knows
35:40
every single you know every single conversation. I feel that because then they they started to arrest
35:46
so many people you know and most of them they have they had nothing to do with politics but I I when
35:52
I when I started to talk with those messengers with one of them I felt that they know a way more than what they should and they said okay which one you know cuz I know you know by that
36:04
time you you had no idea what what was really going on. He said I don't know me too. I said,
36:10
"Okay, you know what? I I trust you because I know that your father in prison and your relatives are in prison and the and you're my closest friend. That's why I trust you." I didn't know that my
36:20
phone was listening to me the whole time. I don't know if the camera was on by that time or not,
36:27
but at least they had the ability to listen, to read, to go through every single messages, every
36:33
every single conversation. Few days later, you know, it's like a shock, you know, I received a
36:42
phone call from Citizen Lab. Uh they are the ones who discovered these uh spy. Belarac contacted me.
36:53
He said, "Hello. Hello. How are you doing? My name is Bill Marjac. I'm calling you from California. uh but citiz actually in Toronto it's part of University of Toronto he said we do believe
37:05
that the Saudi government is spying on someone in Canada specifically in Quebec. So I said it's me
37:17
if they're going to hack someone if they're going to spy on someone it's going to He said okay okay but it doesn't work like that you know we have to make sure that you are the one. I said, "No, no,
37:26
no. Trust me. I'm pretty sure if they're going to do such a thing, I'm the one." He said, "Okay, can
37:32
I check your phone?" I said, "More than welcome. How can we do it?" He said, "Okay, I'm traveling."
37:38
And then he traveled the same the same day. I met him the next day on Montreal. I was in Sherro city
37:44
by that time. Then we started to go through my messages one by one till we found that uh hacken
37:55
uh SMS. By that time I learned that my phone was hacked. Then I started know imagine yourself the
38:04
government was listening to you in the last three four weeks I think. Yeah. I spent like at least 3
38:11
weeks without knowing that my phone was hacked. I knew that my brothers, my friends were arrested.
38:22
Then I contacted Jamal Kash. I said, "Please, let's switch phone numbers. Let's like let's
38:28
change these ones, you know, the ones that we we used to to communicate through. I mean,
38:34
they're not safe anymore." He said, "Okay, what I think that they would do such a thing, they would do the same to me." Subhan Allah. That was on the mid of August 2018. Six weeks later,
38:50
Jamal Kashukji on the 2nd of October, he went to the Saudi consulate in a stamp.
Who murdered Kashoggi?
38:56
And and why why did he I mean he warned you against going to the embassy. So why did he decide to to go? I think he believed that they wouldn't they wouldn't do such a thing,
39:08
right? He was too high profile. Yes. Not only that, but what what's really hurting is is that
39:16
uh some of the ones who killed him, they used to be his friends. Really? He knew them. Yes.
39:25
Yeah. They worked with him in a Saudi embassy here in London, by the way, back in the '9s,
39:31
if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. So uh so he knew that they wouldn't do such a thing you know and his
39:39
fiance by that time was with him. She waited outside and again you know if you would ask
39:46
yourself what's the worst thing that might happen to me if if if I go to that embassy you would
39:52
say okay they would insult me they would you know threaten me they would slap me they would but yeah
40:03
um MBS um how solid how certain is his position now in in Saudi Arabia. It just seems like he's
MBS
40:12
got rid of uh most opposition. Yeah. Uh he now is, you know, next in line. He is effectively
40:19
the de facto ruler of Saudi Arabia. I mean, are we going to see a a MBS as the ruler,
40:26
de facto ruler for the next and ruler for the next 10, 20, 30 years? So MBS is in charge of
40:32
everything. He controls the whole country, every single uh ministries uh institutions
40:40
uh and he got rid of MBN 2017. Uh he was the minister of interior if I'm not mistaken.
40:48
Muhammad bin Nif and uh he controls the army. He controls the state security. So he's actually he's
40:58
the unofficial king of Saudi Arabia. Uh and he believes also that the best way to secure
41:08
the throne again by having a good relationship uh or a strong relationship with the Israelis
41:17
with the Zionists, right? And if you look at what happened since October 7th till the last few days,
41:28
you know, a few days ago, you'll see that the Saudi government did its best to help the Israeli
41:35
government. I know it sounds crazy, but this is exactly what happened. NBS in 20 or 2021,
41:44
he gave $2 billion to Jared Kushner. And I'm not telling you a secret here. Everybody knows that.
41:50
And Kushner himself, he mentioned that in in an interview. This is the son-in-law of Donald Trump. Yeah. Of Donald Trump. Yeah. And he's the one who was behind the deal, the Gaza deal
41:59
that took place yesterday. Yeah. Uh he gave him $2 billion and he and Jared Kushner invested the $2
42:08
billion in Israel. He said, "I asked the Saudis." They said, "Okay, you have the right to do so."
42:13
He opened the airspace for the Israeli flights to pass through Saudi Arabia. And uh please I
42:22
don't want to hear anyone would tell me that this is the international law. We should respect the international law. We cannot do anything about it because it's a lie. Because in 2017 when you had
42:33
like I would say a cold war between Saudi between Saudi Arabia and Qatar, you blocked them from entering your airspace. As simple as that. So you can do the same to the Israelis and you you know
42:44
you're not going to lose anything. Again, if you looked at Arabia channel, Subhan Allah, you know,
42:53
you would feel sometimes Aikadra is is talking, Aikra is speaking, you know, and he, by the way,
42:58
he he quoted them so many times. He was happy with their work. And, you know, and again,
43:07
so many Palestinians or so many Muslims went to Makkah and Medina and they were trying to raise the Palestinian flag and they were arrested. There's there was no protest in Saudi Arabia.
43:17
Yes. They would say we we don't allow protest in our country, you know. But yeah. Yeah. But but
43:22
you can't gather like thousands of people dancing on somewhere on on the desert in Saudi Arabia uh
43:28
front of I don't know Camila Capillu. I don't know what what's her name. The one that did the Havana
43:34
on by the way. She did a very good song, you know, about Saudi. she she changed the name and
43:40
then they started to sing Saudi Onana and everyone was happy about it. You know, we're opening the
43:45
country instead of Havana on we have Saudi on or anyways. So again, he also jailed and imprisoned
43:53
so many uh uh members of Aluk in Saudi Arabia. The largest prison for Mama members is in Israel. The
44:04
second largest in Saudi Arabia. Translate that. Mama meaning Mama I mean the ones who are fighting against the IDF. Yeah. The resistant. Yeah. The one who are fighting against the Israeli army.
44:13
Really? They're arrested. They're they're arrested in Saudi Arabia. And some of them they had a green light from the former king, King Abdullah Abdaz, the one who was ruling the country before King
44:23
Salman. He said, "Okay, you guys, you can come to the country. You can work. You can do some business. You're allowed to do that. you know officially we're not supporting them but again
44:34
you can do some kind of work there some business in Saudi Arabia NBS started to jail every single
44:40
one of them why I'm telling you number one prisons in Israel second in Saudi Arabia we are arresting
44:48
most every single member of Mama was in Saudi Arabia he's in jail today he only released few
44:56
of them including one he's almost eight in his 80s is uh uh I forgot his name few months ago
45:09
why you're doing such a thing. Mhm. This is the question. So and again when you talk to malis they
45:14
would give you so many you know they're trying to find you an excuse they would tell you know he's trying does not know anything about what's going on in the country. Subhan Allah. But he
45:24
knows every single activist. He knows every single person who's writing anything against him. Try to
45:31
try to criticize MBS online and wait for 24 hours in Saudi Arabia. But you can criticize Allah,
45:38
you can insult religion, you can insult, you can make jokes against the prophet peace be upon him
45:43
and nobody would do anything to you. Can I ask you about um Hajin Omra because a lot of um Muslims
Scholars on Saudi Arabia
45:51
who are listening to this will be outraged at what is happening in Saudi Arabia but at the same time they will say well you know do I really want to risk my Hajan Omra you know maybe some in
46:03
the west as you know we have the luxury of going four five six seven eight nine 10 times there are some here in the west who go every year and they take people and so as a result um they're silent
46:15
Now I'm fairly comfortable you know interviewing people like you and interviewing Abdau that I
46:20
think the truth is is more important than a sunnah a nahil which is to to go to but there are so many
46:29
so many scholars I have met in the west uh who refuse to speak out against the Saudi government
46:36
let alone the ordinary people just because they have that gateway into Hajj and Omra like what is
46:42
the there is a dilemma here like how Do you how do you untangle this dilemma? Omar, honestly,
46:47
this topic is I mean I had so many conversations regarding that topic with so many scholars and
46:53
preachers here. I was in a mosque in London. I don't want to say where. And then the imam,
47:02
he recognized me. He said, "Oh, can we talk please in private?" I said, "Okay, yes, no problem." He said, "You know what I want to do? I want to go to Makan Medina and to Hajj
47:11
and Omrah. you know I'm know I'm I'm really sorry for what's happening to our brothers and our sal
47:21
but subhan Allah what can I do you know you know I I I feel sorry for them but you know
47:26
I want to do I said okay she please first of all you know that the ones who are doing are
47:34
in prison the one who are trying to uh uh reform the country the one who used to tell MBS or to
47:44
tell the leaders of Saudi Arabia this is right this is wrong are in prison your friends are in
47:50
prison and you know that they cannot do that task they cannot do that duty you know they
47:56
they're not going to they don't have the ability to do such a thing because they're in prison or they're banned some of them they cannot even use their uh uh social media platforms so now you're
48:06
telling me that you you two you live in London or in in in New York or DC or I don't know in
48:15
Scotland and you're telling me that you don't want to upset the Saudi regime because you want
48:20
to do and it's not the first time we're not talking about here you one of them did Hajj
48:28
for at least 15 times 15 times I haven't been by the way I haven't done because I left the country
48:34
when I was 18 years old today I'm 35 years who know 35 or 34 I stopped counting long time ago.
48:44
But anyways, so I I I haven't done Yes, I did many times when I was when I was in Saudi, but you are
48:54
telling me that you don't want to upset MBS and you're not going you're not you're not going to
49:02
clarify things. you're not going to tell the truth about what's going on in Saudi because you're scared that you're going to lose your 16th time of of Subhan Allah. So now you're giving up a for
49:16
the sake of Sunnah. Yes. Your first time that's whether it's or I do believe that I do respect
49:24
that. I understand that. I fully understand that. Yes. But you're telling me that you already did it for 10 20 times and subhan Allah and you're you're remaining silent while you're seeing so
49:36
many like efforts from the Saudi government to to destroy the values of Islam to destroy the Muslim
49:44
community to destroy the mu in Gaza to destroy the you we have Makkah and Medina what what have
49:50
you done my dear sheh my dear scholar what have you done to help those people in prison in Saudi
49:56
Arabia the ones I know that some of them they were helping you some of them they were paying
50:01
some your fees someh they were helping so many communities here and we remaining silent because
50:09
I do I I I want to in the next year I wouldn't be able to make subhan allah then you know I
50:20
I see no point of that you are betraying your religion you're betraying your ummah while you
50:26
remaining silent and seeing all these activities happening in the country and especially after what
50:32
happened in the last two years in Saudi Arabia. Subhan Allah. And you still remaining silent.
50:41
You're going to find yourself an answer in the in the in the day of that's it. As
50:46
simple as that. I I honestly I see no point. You are betraying your normalization. Um,
Normalisation
50:52
now that we've got the so-called Gaza deal uh that Kushner and Trump have have signed
50:59
uh with the um with the Israelis and the and some of the Muslim rulers um is Saudi normalization
51:08
with Israel now on the cards. I would say normalization happened like few years ago really. It's just you know we are just waiting for the official ceremony for that. But you know
51:19
um investing in their country, arresting their enemies, um criticizing Mama while praising the
51:31
IDF or their leaders, uh allowing their flights to pass through our airspace. um trying to you
51:40
know I mean I I honestly in the last two years so many Muslim brothers have uh stubbed me sometimes
51:50
in the streets sometimes in mosques sometimes and they would ask you Omar what's going on with your country is there anything behind the scene between you and the Palestinians maybe
52:01
maybe there's there's something you know we don't know what's what's really going on because the the amount of hate the the amount of of all these negative uh uh speeches against the Palestinians
52:15
makes no sense. What's really going on between you and Palestinian said? No, no, we have nothing against them. But this is the government. All these accounts are progovern accounts.
52:25
They're being paid by the NBS and by his people to launch all these kind of uh negative narratives
52:34
against our brothers and sisters in Gaza on Subhan Allah. I felt ashamed. I felt ashamed
52:44
regarding the the media coverage this from Alabia channel from Alhad channel from our newspapers
52:54
blah blah not the one I'm talking about we have Saudi jazer and you're asking yourself why so it's
53:04
not about the official normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel because it it it happened we're
53:11
just waiting for the uh uh the ceremony, that's it. Raising flags, that's it. It happened also in Saudi Arabia with in the during the E World Cup, I think for PlayStation and Xbox World Cup,
53:22
something they did that. And by the way, we're spending billions of dollars on that. Nobody
53:27
knows why. Saudi Arabia just bought like a EA company for I think 50 or 60 billion. Yeah,
53:36
they do believe that it's going to generate it's that's going to generate lots of billions of dollars in the future. Who knows? So, and there is the Israeli flag during the uh uh that uh E World
53:48
Cup. Yeah. So, whenever I'm hearing this question, I'm telling my friends or the one who's who are
53:55
asking, I said, "Guys, it already happened." And NBS again, he believes that this is the best way
54:02
to protect his throne by pleasing the Zionists. That's the only answer. That's the only reason
54:10
because you can you know there are some countries which are normalizing the the relations with
54:15
Israel. Yes, I know that that happened. Sudan did that. Uh Jordan, I think Egypt. But when you look
54:22
at their governments, they're not putting lots of pressure on their people to be Zionist. What's the
54:32
point of you? What's the point of making jokes against the mukawa in Gaza? What's the point?
54:41
What's the point of making fun on you know so many fighters or so many scholars or so many activists
54:54
who are from Palestine. Trust me, I'm I'm sending this message to my brothers and sister in
55:00
Palestine in Fine or in the rest of the world. We have nothing against them, you know. We pray Allah
55:06
subhana wa ta'ala every single day to protect them uh uh to you know because we too want to free
55:17
and and I grew up learning that in my school and by the way by the way they changed so many subject
55:26
I used to study when I was a little kid in Saudi Arabia in the history class that I'll give you a
55:34
Funny example uh you know the battle of you know when uh the prophet peace be upon him he sent
55:44
the companion to the Jews and he said disrupt their efforts. So he went he sent them he sent
55:53
him to the Jews to to uh he he wanted to isolate them or he wanted them not to join the forces.
56:01
So that's that I used to study that. Nowadays they change that topic and you won't see anything that
56:09
relates to to Jews regarding of they're only blaming the mushri you know only mushri I don't
56:21
know by that time who who are with them and the rest of mushri from Makkah they are the ones who
56:28
are making problems not the Jews you know this is history I used to study that I'm telling you
56:33
that I have anything against Jews. I have two of my lawyers, by the way, they're Jews. Uh, and one of them, he's an Israeli, by the way. He's he's uh he used to carry the Israeli
56:44
uh passport before. But but again, you're changing the topic. You're playing with with all these
56:50
subjects for the sake of whom? What are you trying to tell the world? And also in another another
56:57
uh subject regarding what is the best or the most uh uh glorified day in the week.
57:07
What's the best day in the week for us Muslims? Friday. Juma. Yes. So in one subject they're
57:13
talking about the best and the most important day is Saturday. And sorry this is a Jewish.
57:22
has nothing to do with Muslim and that's you know by the way some of my friends they made an episode in YouTube in Yakada channel regarding that regarding all these changes that happened
57:32
in in in yes it's in Arabic but inshallah they will they will have English uh subtitle these are
57:37
curriculum changes yeah the curricul oh so many so many so many things if you're asking yourself
57:42
what's the point of that what's the reason behind that that would lead you to only one reason MPS
57:51
S is trying to please the Zionists. That's it. And he mentioned that he and he stated that he he had
57:57
so many meetings with so many of them and he said it's I have a very tough and difficult mission but
58:04
I'm doing my best and honestly he's succeeding. Do you think NBS is a Zionist? I do believe that
Is MBS Zionist?
58:11
he's more Zionist than Benjamin Netanyahu. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. uh NBZ and NBS and some of
58:20
those Arabic leaders they're doing because at the end of the day Netanyahu is is telling his people
58:26
that you know what I'm I'm here I'm I'm defending my country I'm helping my people you know but MBS
58:31
what's the point of that you know Saudi Arabia if we use the B and by the way we used that card the
58:39
oil card during the 6th of October war in the 73 70 73 And that that worked very well. Saudi Arabia
58:51
had the same ability today. And by the way, we're listening to Donald Trump. Oil prices are going
58:56
down. And we could we could have changed that since the day two. NBS and Saudi Arabia had the
59:04
ability to stop the war in Gaza. Wall. We have the power to stop the war in Gaza since the day one.
59:12
But he didn't do much because he believed that the Gaza they destroyed his efforts to publicly
59:23
or to normalize relations with with the Israeli government. Omar, as we um as we close this
59:29
conversation, I mean it's been really something actually and I think a lot of our viewers will be shocked with a lot of what you said today. Um let's look at the future. I mean, do you feel
Hope to go back to Saudi?
59:39
that one day you and I will be able to go to Amra together uh sometime in the future, inshallah?
59:47
Subhan Allah. I'm having a podcast, by the way, in Arabic. So, I'm asking most of my guest same
59:53
question. Same question. Yeah. So, I'm I'm I'm very optimist inshallah. I know I do believe in
1:00:01
uh that that things are going to change inshallah but we need lots of people uh to fight what's
1:00:09
really going on in Saudi Arabia and we're talking about peaceful fight here you know I know that they're going to cut lots of you know clips from this interview and uh people should know what's
1:00:22
really going on exactly in Saudi Arabia and I do believe inshallah uh uh you and me inshallah once
1:00:30
Uh we would go back to in take you to Ja. We have a very tasty restaurant there. Yeah.
1:00:37
It's called Alb. If I don't know if you're familiar with Yes. So and then I will take you inshallah to Makkah and Medina and you will see the rest of Saudi Arabia. We have a very
1:00:48
uh wonderful cities. Not only Makkah and Medina Mall, we have so many like I mean it's like a a continent. It's not a country. and uh lovely people uh friendly. Yeah. Tell
1:01:00
me about the people. Oh yeah. I mean I mean I mean alhamdulillah most of what MPS and Turkh are doing
1:01:09
the people in Saudi Arabia are uh not following are not listening. Uh they're criticizing what's
1:01:17
really going on. But you know not everyone has the ability to speak freely. Alhamdulillah.
1:01:23
uh but you can feel that you can see that uh and I think whatever the government is
1:01:31
trying to do that's not going to change the people and inshallah inshallah in one day
1:01:39
uh we'd have that ability to travel freely and to go back and forth and maybe I don't know
1:01:45
uh maybe that would happen in in in 5 10 20 years but inshallah it's going to happen uh Thank you so
1:01:54
much for your for your time today. No problem. I thought my English wouldn't help me but inshallah.
1:01:59
Yeah, it was very good. I tried my best. English is very good. Mah did very well explained. I
1:02:05
think there will be a lot of our viewers who will be shocked about what they heard today.
1:02:16
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