Ep 268. - How Pakistan’s Generals Sold Out Dr Aafia | Clive Stafford Smith
This week on The Thinking Muslim, we have Clive Stafford Smith on the podcast to discuss the case of Dr Aafia Siddiqui, including the troubling role of Pakistani authorities in her abduction, the heartbreaking seizure of her children, and the broader issues of state complicity.
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
just bring us up to speed on on the case on the issue of Dr. Apia Sadiki and why she's
0:06
currently languishing in a prison in Texas. They ended up abducting her on March the 30th,
0:12
2003. Is it a Pakistani authority? Well, the Pakistani authorities did it for the Americans. The Pakistan government paid $2 million to these lawyers to represent her. Oh,
0:24
okay. These people are not going to do what Afia wanted, which is tell the truth. You know, these people are guilty of abducting her, abducting the children, selling them to the Americans,
0:34
then trying to murder them. Their crimes are endless. The establishment in Pakistan
0:39
and the CIA have lied about this for 20 years. General Masher was teetering at the end of his
0:46
time in office. If she had shown up in Pakistan with the whole story about her torture and the
0:52
children and everything, that really would have been the end of his government. What's the next step? If there was a justice system in reality and they'd be under indictment.
1:04
Clive Savas Smith, welcome back to the Thinking Muslim. I'm grateful to have you with us today. Look, it's always a great pleasure and honestly, I had to come to get another Thinking Muslim cup
1:14
because Fatima, who works with me, really wants another one. So, you know, I'm only here for one
1:20
reason, let's face it. Great. Well, no, we've got a we've got a mug for you, uh, Clive. I mean I I
1:25
mean it's uh I'm really happy that you've joined us here. You've just returned from a very long trip to Afghanistan. I think you just return your flight came back yesterday night was it? Yeah,
1:35
I got back last night. I think I caught you mid-flight or at least early something like that. And you know, look, I was very grateful. I left Kabul really only about four or five hours before
1:46
Pakistan started bombing the city. So I don't know. I've been attracting these people. But when I was in Pakistan last time was when the Indians started attacking. So I'm just going to stay in
1:56
Dorsit for a bit where I hope no one's going to start firing missiles at us. Right. Okay. Well,
2:01
hopefully not. I mean, you're you've just returned from Kabul and um you know for context
2:07
uh of course always when I have you on my show I would like to talk to you about other things but it's really Afia Sadiki, Dr. Afia Sadiki and her case. Yeah, I was there mostly for her,
2:18
but also some of the Guantanamo guys, you know, I'm fairly confident we'll have Muhammad Raheem,
2:23
the last Afghan out in the next few days. Great. Which is fabulous. So that's good. Afghanistan,
2:29
I mean, before we get to Dr. Afia, actually, you know, how did you leave Kabul? I know Pakistan thing, but before then, like how did you leave Kabul? What's the Well, I mean, I've got to say,
Afghanistan
2:38
I've always been um Did you have internet? I mean, could you communicate with the world? There was there were two days when they turned the internet off. Yeah. And I was later I couldn't
2:49
do anything. He didn't have phones either. It really made life quite difficult. But I got a lot
2:55
of work done. But the um I read the Western media later about all the fantasies that they had about
3:01
why it was and the Taliban were trying to stop Western vice from seeping in and all that stuff,
3:07
but it just wasn't. It was because they were having a new internet server and they were trying
3:13
to sort it out. They've got one or two weird ideas about the internet, but um but it wasn't what the
3:18
West says. And so much of what I see there is not as the West says, right? Um you know, I
3:26
should say first I I really don't agree with some of the policies towards women. Fundamentally not.
3:32
But then so that's true of 80% of the Afghan people including a lot of their government.
3:38
I've talked to government people who say I've got daughters. I want my daughter to have an education. Um so that's obviously an issue, but it's an issue that the West stands on the
3:50
touchline screaming about in a way that's actually very counterproductive for the rights of women.
3:57
It just enforces, you know, it reinforces the the sort of conservatives in Kandaharan
4:04
um because it's the West telling them what to do. The we've got to do something about that in
4:09
a more positive way. But the reality is that every government's first duty is to make the
4:17
country safe. Yeah. And if we can just stop the Pakistanis from bombing them, Afghanistan is the
4:24
safest place I go to. I I was given some security people by the Afghans the first time I went there
4:30
and these big guys with turbans and AK-47s. I said, "Look, you're really wasting your time.
4:36
I I really appreciate it. I'm going to Texas next week. That's where I need you. It's not here." And
4:42
it truly truly is safe everywhere I go. And that's fabulous after 45 years of war. Great. Okay. Well,
4:51
we're here to talk about the really unfortunate case of Dr. Afia Sadiki I know her sister Fosia
Summary of Aafia’s case
4:57
was I missed her unfortunately I was abroad but uh I know she's been amazing in in you know fighting
5:03
for cause of she is amazing generally faian yeah um so you're in Afghanistan to partly to to
5:11
investigate and continue to investigate the case of of uh of Afia Sadiki for those of our viewers
5:19
who have not watched the previous two shows and I really ask our viewers to do though just bring
5:25
us up to speed on on the case on the issue of Dr. Aia Sadiki and why she's currently languishing in
5:31
a prison in Texas. So a little background um the US got it into their minds back right after 911.
5:41
Um obviously there were thousands you know 15,000 um Muslims taken in after 911 and there was all
5:49
sorts of Islamophobia. I was there. I remember it. Yeah. Um, and Afia was caught up in that and
5:57
gradually the US assembled stuff about her, pretty much all of which turned out to be false. Um, and
6:05
so very briefly, we'll go back and discuss that in a bit, but um, they then decided she was a leader
6:14
of al-Qaeda, which you know, you might just say to them, hey, you know, there weren't any women
6:20
leading al-Qaeda. is a fundamentally chauvinist organization. Um, but they ended up abducting
6:28
her on March the 30th, 2003. Is it a Pakistani authority? Well, the Pakistani authorities did
6:35
it for the Americans. You will have read in General Masharif's book at page 234 um how
6:42
he boasted that hundreds of people were sold to the Americans for bounties. Afia was one of them.
6:51
And the unique thing about her was first she was a woman. There were very few women involved in
6:57
this. But the really bad bit was they abducted her three children. And you had Ahmed age six,
7:04
Mariam age four, and little Sum Sulean 6 months old. And so Ahmed was taken and put in a prison
7:14
in Afghanistan. Um they said his name was Isan Ali and if he ever said he was Ahmed they'd kill
7:20
him. Um he was there for five years. Mariam was forcibly adopted into a white Christian American
7:29
family for seven years. Um and then Sullean we don't know exactly what happened. Originally,
7:37
we thought I thought that he had been dropped on his head and killed, but the only source for that
7:42
is actually six-year-old Ahmed looking out of the back window of the car he was in and relating this
7:50
5 years later, and that's not terribly reliable. So, we just don't know whether he's alive or
7:57
not to this day. And then, um, Afia was taken to Bagram Air Force Base. We can now prove that. And
8:05
you got to remember that the the establishment in Pakistan and the CIA have lied about this for 20
8:12
years. Um that she was taken there. I've got lots of witnesses who say she was taken to the Bagram
8:21
prison. She was in the isolation unit for a bit. Lots of people saw her there and have given me
8:27
statements. She was then taken to what's called the disc which was an underground black site in
8:34
Bagram and she was held there for quite a while. Then she was taken to another prison in or around
8:40
Kabul which I haven't located yet where uh she was raped a number of times. Uh and this went on
8:48
for five years. And this poor woman throughout all of that was worried about her children. And then
8:55
actually when she was in background, she related to me the first time I saw her that they had some
9:00
children behind a one-way glass and they were purporting to torture them and say they were her
9:06
kids, you know. And then you imagine as a parent, um I certainly can. I'm sure everyone can. What do
9:13
you do? Afia told me that she'd tell them whatever they wanted to hear, you know, make up whatever
9:19
they want, but they just carried on. and she said to me that she agonized over this and she finally
9:26
decided the best way to stop it was to pretend she didn't care. Now, can you imagine being in that
9:32
position? So, these are were Americans Americans doing that. Yeah. And and it wasn't her kids,
9:39
but she thought it was. Um then they showed her pictures of both of her boys dead in blood. Now,
9:46
we know those were falsified because Ahmed later showed up alive. And then she it came time when
9:53
they figured out she was really nobody. And this happened so many times over the last 20 years.
9:59
So they want to get rid of her and the Americans would have just got rid of her. They didn't care. Um unfortunately this was in mid208 and uh General Masher was teetering at the end of his time in
10:13
office and if she had shown up in Pakistan with the whole story about her torture and the children
10:20
and everything that really would have been the end of his government. So they came up that and
10:25
this according to all my witnesses um who take an opinion on this say this is an ISI operation
10:33
where they came up with a disposal operation to get rid of them. And the idea was they sent her
10:39
to a place called Gazny 150k southwest of um of Kabul and said if you go there you can have your
10:48
daughter back. She goes there in the bus with her is her son, but neither of them are sure who they
10:54
are because of all that they've been through. But her son is dressed up as a suicide bomber. They've called in a suicide bomb attack. Um, and she's sitting outside this mosque and the
11:06
Afghan National Police are going to come up with their AK-47s. They're not going to ask questions. They're going to just shoot her. The only reason that doesn't happen as we discussed last time is
11:16
I found this guy Muhammadi who um was able to talk to her because he spoke Erdo and he was talking to
11:22
her when the police show up and he stands between her and the guns saves her life. She's then taken
11:30
to the&p headquarters. Um they're just going to let her go because they can't see she's done
11:36
anything wrong. The Americans then swoop in because they learn that she's been taken. And
11:43
this is where the stories differ. The Americans say that they don't say they bribed the national
11:50
police. Um but that's what they did. Um to go see her and they say they go into the room. One
11:57
of them puts his machine gun down as one does in a war zone. Afia reaches under the curtain, flips
12:04
off the safety catch. I'm sure you know where the M4 machine gun safety catch is and starts
12:09
shooting. They say there were two holes up in the wall. And so then this soldier bravely shoots her
12:15
in the stomach. That's not what happened. What happened is what Afia says. She says she hears
12:21
American voices, thinks, "Oh my goodness, I'm going to be taken back for more torture." And
12:27
um she peaks around the curtain and this soldier says she's on the loose and shoots her. And then
12:32
they make the other story up. And the reason we know that's true is that the two holes in the wall
12:38
that they say she fired bullets into, there's a video that we now have that um shows from earlier
12:45
that day those two holes in the wall before all of this happened. And there were no shells from
12:50
the M4. It just didn't happen. So she's then shot. She comes close to death. She's patched up. She's
12:59
taken to New York, put on trial slightly less than a mile from ground zero. Um, and she's convicted
13:06
and given, you know, I had my lovely students this summer go through every attempted murder case in
13:13
the last 41 years in America. And Afia was given the second longest sentence of anyone in America
13:21
federally of 86 years. one guy who got longer who tried to kill five police officers and had
13:28
a long criminal record and he actually shot one of the police and he wasn't the one who was shot.
13:35
So that's the story now and and and what was the conviction like was it terrorism? The conviction
Aafia’s Conviction
13:42
was just for attempted murder, but then they plug in all this terrorism stuff and she's taken to
13:47
this place FMCell. Um, and you know, that's how I really got into this. Her sister Faier asked me to
13:55
go see her. Couldn't really say no, so I went and Oh gosh, FMC Kwell, you know, honestly, I've been
14:04
to pretty much every death row in America. I've been to Guantanamo 42 times. Kwell is the worst
14:11
really. She complained to me that she'd been raped a number of times there. I didn't know
14:16
really whether that's credible to begin with. I look into it, I discover it's got the worst sexual assault rate of any prison in the country. 13 people have been convicted of rape. 13 employees,
14:29
including the Christian minister. And you know, she's in this awful place. She's been in solitary
14:36
confinement effectively for the entire time. She's been treated worse even than the women on death
14:42
row there. She's been treated worse than any woman in federal custody. It's just awful,
14:47
awful, awful. And they just don't believe her when she says, "I'm worried about my children being
14:54
tortured." They think she's making that up. You know, the whole thing's just awful. This is your
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more and give. Thank you for for um for for giving us the background. Uh, so you were brought on the
Clemency
16:27
case uh in order to um in order to in effect get clemency for for her. And I think the last time
16:33
we spoke there was it was before Biden uh left the White House and there was some hope that
16:40
maybe there would be a prisoner deal and um uh in in exchange for Afia to go to a third country
16:49
um the Pakistanis would release a particular individual. That obviously didn't happen.
16:54
Just tell me why that that didn't happen. So I spent a month in Washington trapesing around
16:59
trying to talk them into it. I think it really didn't happen because Afia wasn't a family member
17:05
of Joe Biden. I mean pretty much everyone who was related to him got clemency. Yeah. But um no,
17:12
I mean they just didn't do it. And and he waited until 11:45 a.m. on January the 20th,
17:19
15 minutes before he was out of office. Probably his last act in office. way to send me a letter to
17:25
the wrong address denying um clemency. It's just really pathetic and very sad. Yeah. But you know
17:33
that's I've never got clemency for anyone frankly. So I'm not really surprised. But that just means
17:39
we got to go the other route which is get the court to do it. Right. Okay. So when you say
The courts
17:44
get the court to do it, is there a appending case? Yeah. I you know because then so I've now since I
17:51
was ripped into this by thousand which I'm really glad because it's a really important thing. Yeah.
17:57
Um even though my goodness it's a lot of work. You do this pro bono. You don't get paid for it. No I
18:02
don't get paid. I don't never been paid by anyone. Yeah. Um we do it for charity because I am an
18:08
what we call an OPWM. What's that? That's an old privileged white male. And if I don't do that, my
18:15
mother will strike me dead from heaven. So anyway, um yeah, so I've spent a lot of time digging up
18:23
and there's some great interesting new stuff. Can I tell you something? Yes, please do. Yeah. So
18:29
over the time since I last saw you. Yeah. First, we've got an ISI agent telling us what happened.
18:39
This is what really annoys the establishment in Pakistan that one of their own has given me a
18:44
sworn affidavit and going public and he's not even he's teeny bit mad because I think they're going
18:50
to try and kill him frankly but he wants to do this is the right thing to do. I've got a secretly
18:58
recorded one of the people who actually abducted her in the first place. Wow. There's another of
19:04
the people who abducted her in the first place who tells the story of how this American woman
19:10
agent slapped Afia. Um, so we got absolute proof of her being abducted, which people have tried to
19:18
deny for 22 years. We've got two American agents, one CIA and one another intelligence officer who's
19:28
told us about what they believed about her. It's just extraordinary. Let me let me pretend you're
19:33
a secret agent, right, with the CIA. Yeah. They and you tell me what's true and what's false. So
19:39
they say she had a green card in as an American so she could go in and out of America. Is that
19:46
true or false? Oh, I don't I don't know. Wasn't she a citizen? Wasn't she Oh, you're even worse.
19:52
You're worse than the CIA? Yeah. No, she wasn't a citizen. She didn't have a green card. Oh,
19:57
she didn't have a green card. Okay. She had a PhD from MIT. Yeah. Is that right? It wasn't MIT,
20:03
was it? It was another university. Yeah, we got the few. You almost said yes. Really? Yes. Right. And they said MI, it was Brandeise and they said MIT is a university that only does maths and
20:14
physics. Is that true? Uh, no. It's not true. No, of course it's not true. And that she therefore
20:19
knew how to build a nuclear bomb. Do you know how to build a nuclear bomb? Uh, no. But if I did,
20:25
I wouldn't say, but I don't. No, you probably shouldn't. Was preventable. And she doesn't have a nuclear physicist. No, she was They keep saying she's a scientist. No, she's not. She's an
20:36
educationalist. Her PhD is a lengthy thing about education. And they said because of this, she was
20:43
um the object of a conspiracy between al-Qaeda and which other terrorist group was it? Or the No,
20:52
it's FARC. Now, do you FARC? Really? The uh Colombian is it? Colombian revolutionaries. Where
21:00
do they get this from? I'll tell you where they get it from. Yeah. The at the time there was a big battle with the who was getting money. Right. Right now in America, sorry. Um in America right
21:10
now it's ICE is getting all the money. Right. So they're taking all the money from the FBI and from the DEA and ATF and people back after 911 suddenly the war on drugs was put on the back burner and
21:24
the war on terror or as Borat calls it the war of terror um was the big thing. So suddenly the
21:31
money's all going to the CIA and the FBI. The DEA desperate to get in on the act was trying to turn
21:39
it into drugs. So they said first that al-Qaeda was making their money off heroin in Afghanistan
21:46
and then somehow it must have come from them. This stuff about Colombia was so stupid. It's not true.
21:54
And so this was what they thought Afia was up to. It's utter nonsense. And in so we got this
22:01
American agent to tell us that. And then there's this other stuff that in 2002 around about March
22:09
or April, the FBI comes to Afia's apartment with her horrendous ex-husband Amjad Khan. Um,
22:19
we got all this evidence about him abusing her and the scar from him, throwing a baby bottle at her.
22:27
Um, but the FBI shows up and he's been buying all this sort of night vision goggles and bulletproof
22:34
vests and stuff and he says it's because he's a hunter. I'm astounded he wasn't arrested on the
22:40
spot. So, they go there once. They come back again when he gets a $70,000 uh check from Saudi Arabia.
22:49
You know, Saudi Arabia, half of almost all of the 911 conspirators were from there. Again, he says,
22:56
"Well, I'm just doing it for a friend." Yeah. They don't do anything about that. They come back a third time and say, "Have you been giving money to these Islamic organizations?" So, it's amazing
23:09
Amjad wasn't arrested. But both he and Afia were then on much closer watch list. So they both go
23:15
back to Pakistan where they then Amjad gets into an argument with Afia's dad, pushes him,
23:23
he falls and has a heart attack and the family ascribes his sad death to that. So there's a
23:30
rather bitter divorce and um this is when the suspicion comes on Amjad and um Afia and they're
23:41
both from whom? from the US. Some they're getting all their intelligence from the Pakistanis. No,
23:47
the Pakistanis are doing a bit of that, but actually the Americans perfectly capable of getting everything wrong themselves. They come up with this theory about blood diamonds. They
23:56
got someone who says that Dia was dealing with blood diamonds in Liberia with uh and it's on
24:04
it's in 2001. It's actually on a day that we can prove she was in hospital in Boston having a scan.
24:11
And interestingly, the FBI had debunked all of that, but the CIA was still repeating it. So,
24:19
all of this stuff comes up and then what happens and we we have other stuff that I've discovered.
24:25
It's really interesting. Um, if you look at the Senate report on torture, they don't call
24:31
it torture, they call it enhanced interrogation, of course. Yeah. Then um footnote 1898 has a list
24:40
of nine people whose photographs were shown to Hal Shake Muhammad supposedly the mastermind of
24:47
911. And they were shown by this woman Bicowski who calls herself the queen of torture. Um and
24:54
they were shown to him on the 23rd of March uh 2003. One of them was Afia and then there
25:03
were eight other people. Now of the eight other people, seven have been exonerated at this point,
25:08
including two of my clients. Uh, one of whom was Usuzer Paratch, another Sullipar. Um, the eighth
25:16
person was apparently taken by the establishment in Pakistan and disappeared and never been heard
25:22
of again. And the ninth person is Afia. And so they're torturing torturing KSM. He then, you
25:30
know, identifies all these people as being um big names in al-Qaeda. So then on the 28th of March,
25:38
um the Americans arrest Paracha. He spends 18 years in prison before he's exonerated. On the
25:44
30th of March, they um get Afia, they get the Pakistani establishment to go nab her and you
25:52
know, she's sold to the Americans. So all of that we can now prove. Okay? And it proves beyond any
25:58
doubt, you know, how they messed up and how the Pakistanis were involved and so on and so forth.
26:05
And you know, the thing about all of this is Ismat, who's Faier and Afia's mother, yeah,
26:11
before she died and before Masher died, forgave Masher. Sent Faia to see Masher to to personally
26:19
forgive him for what he did. And you know, we're not out there for revenge against these people. We just want justice for Afian. Let's let's go back a little bit. You said that you've got a signed
ISI Agent Affidavit
26:29
affidavit from the ISI from an agent. What does that contain? Explain that. Well, it it explains
26:36
the whole story, right? And it also explains how he um says that the disposal operation,
26:44
the effort to try and murder Afia, right, was a typical agent, you know, thing by the ISI. This
26:50
was in Gazny, isn't it? Okay. Right. So he he and he was involved in all of this. He was involved in
26:56
that blood diamonds case because there was a case that was closely linked to that. Yeah. And he was he was trying to get access to Afia who we knew was in Afghanistan with the Americans. Right. And
27:06
so basically he helps us prove one of the many things that they've been lying about which is
27:13
where was Afia for the missing 5 years from 2003 to 2008. So he says she was in Bagram. She was at
27:20
Bram. She says he says she was in American custody and he was trying to get they had a deal with the
27:26
Americans. Yeah. That they could get prisoners back if they needed to interrogate them about
27:31
something else. He wanted to talk to her about this other issue. Yeah. And you know he was trying
27:36
to get her and that was when the whole Gazny thing took place. And for two American agents, one from the CIA, one from intelligence agency. The other is actually the US Air Force intelligence. He was
27:47
in Bagram at the same time as Afia was and and they've spoken to you. They've given me affidavit
27:53
and and again saying so the US agent the the air force guy was in New Orleans when I was in
28:01
2002 and he related what he knew about Afia from then he had a very clear memory of it right and
28:08
he's the one who tells us all the misinformation they had. He then goes on to talk about his he was
28:13
in Pakistan after that and he discusses some of that. Yeah. And he was then in Bagram for several
28:21
several years and he he details some of that. So it's incredibly helpful. Afia at the moment is in
Pakistan Government Complicity
28:28
prison in in Texas Fort Worth Texas. Fort Worth Texas. Right. And uh she's been there since 200
28:35
2008 really but 2010 after her trial. Her trial. Okay. And um you entered uh the case you you got
28:45
you became a lawyer effectively when was 2023 when 2023. So in between those that period 2008 and
28:54
2023 uh what was Afia's condition? So well first you got her trial which happened in 2010. Now the
29:02
problem there was um the Pakistan government paid $2 million to these lawyers to represent her. Oh
29:11
okay. The Pakistan government Yeah. But there's a serious issue with that, right? Which is that
29:17
they had a massive conflict of interest. Now, one of the things that we can now prove beyond any
29:22
doubt is that the Pakistan establishment has spent the last 18 years effectively or really 22 years
29:32
um trying to cover up their own crimes. And so, uh they hired these lawyers. Yeah. But these
29:42
people are not going to do what Afia wanted, which is tell the truth. They put on a trial, a defense at trial where they prevented Afia. Afia was trying to testify about the torture, about the
29:54
time she was in Bagram, about the abductions. And they prevent that because the lawyers had this
29:59
massive conflict of interest because they're being paid by the very people who caused the problem.
30:05
And you know, one of the interesting things about this which is just so wrong is Fia,
30:12
who is a woman, if you're ever in trouble, you want that woman as your sister. I mean,
30:18
she's just amazing. But the Pakistan establishment has spent endless effort to intimidate her.
30:26
They've dropped dead bodies or it's alleged they've dropped dead bodies. I don't know, outside her door in her house. They've they've posted apparently bullets to her. People have
30:40
told her that if and they said this to her mother that if they don't back off, some of their other daughters are going to disappear. Um they there have been attempted abductions of the
30:51
children. There's been all sorts of threats. I mean, even while I've been representing her,
30:56
they they've taken her off with blindfolds and threatened her if I carry on doing my job.
31:02
taking Fousia off. Fousy off. Really? Yeah. And look, I tell them, you want to kidnap someone, come and kidnap me. I mean, it's not Fousia who can, she can't stop me. And she, you know, we make
31:11
this very clear. I'm representing Afia. And much as I love Fia, I think she's fabulous. I can't
31:18
betray Afia because of what's going on. But, you know, this goes on and on and on. And we had this
31:25
whole thing about whether Pakistan would intervene with an amicus brief, a friend of the court brief.
31:31
Yeah. for AFM. You know, they'd agreed to it and we were in court and this lovely judge in
31:38
Islamabad was helping us organize it. Yeah. So they agreed to it. The attorney general himself
31:43
agreed to it. Then they were naked and then the judge threatened them with contempt and all the
31:49
rest of it if they wouldn't explain it. And we all know what's going on, right? They're being told what to do by the puppeteers. So then I had these lengthy discussions with the attorney general and
32:00
the justice minister who are both decent people in Pakistan. In Pakistan and we agreed on a
32:07
different way to do the amicus brief that they were happy with. They then got apparently told
32:13
they couldn't do it by the same people again. So you endlessly that the the establishment is
32:18
just thwarting what we're trying to do. But then when I went to Afghanistan just two weeks ago,
32:24
uh, Faia was going to meet me there and we were going to go to Kandahar. We were g we there are
32:29
still things I want to find out. I mean, we've got enough evidence to sink these people beyond trace, but you can never have too much. So Fousia was going to come too. We're going to go to Kandahar,
32:39
meet all the powers that be, and get some more help. She then receives a call from a guy who
32:47
says his his name is Hay Tullah and that he's with the Hakanis and that he's telling her that
32:54
she can't go to Afghanistan and the Afghans aren't going to help us anymore and this that and the other. So she lets me know that and I say well you know where'd he call you from? So
33:04
she calls the number back and it's a Pakistan number of someone else she'd been talking to.
33:10
And so I say, you know, this guy's an ISI stoogge obviously. But then I talk to Anna Hakani, who's
33:17
one of the real Hakanis, one of the brothers, and he says his first response is that guy is
33:24
not one of us. This is an ISI stoogge, right? So they're still making these pathetic efforts
33:31
to stop Fier and me doing what we got to do. Explain that. Why? Why are the Pakistani estabia?
Pakistani establishment and Fowzia
33:42
Why do they not want? They don't want it because if there was a justice system in reality in
33:49
Pakistan, they'd be under indictment. You know, these people are guilty of abducting her,
33:54
abducting the children, selling them to the Americans, then trying to murder them and then trying to cover up their wrongdoing. And you know, their crimes are endless.
34:04
So, no, we're not interested in prosecuting them, but they're so paranoid and their whole, you know,
34:10
they're bullies and their whole bully ethos is to be paranoid about, they know they've done wrong.
34:18
I just wrote a piece that probably will get me abducted next time I go there about these people,
34:24
you know, they need to read the constitution. The constitution says each of those people swore an oath as a military officer to uphold the constitution to protect Pakistanis and they've
34:34
done exactly the opposite and you they need to stop this nonsense. They really do by Pakistani
34:41
establishment then can you be more specific? Who are we really talking about here? Well they call them the establishment it's the military and the ISI who are mixed up and it's very sad.
34:51
Yeah. Um you know it's very sad to me about what's happening in Pakistan generally with my old friend
34:57
Imran Khan with all this other stuff and you know they're just ruining a country that I have a lot
35:03
of respect for right so to get this clear the Pakistani Pakistani army aim maybe you know the
ISI Chiefs
35:11
uh the chiefs of the ISI uh they do not want Afia to come back home neither do they want her
35:18
to be released to a third country. Well, I'm not really naming names because I don't know which of these shadowy cowards it is. Yeah. Although I've tried very hard to meet with them. I would love to
35:28
sit down and talk to them and just tell them the facts of life. I mean, first what their duty is, but more importantly, we're not trying to get them. But on the other hand, the longer they make
35:39
me work on this, the longer they try to obstruct us, actually, it's kind of cool. It really helps
35:45
me. These people are so stupid. They don't get that everything they're doing now is helping
35:51
me prove that the lawyers had a conflict in the first place. Why? Because they're proving that
35:56
anyone who's representing our fear is going to get threatened if they tell the truth. So I'm happy,
36:03
you know, if it's just me, I'm not happy they do it to Felsia. Yeah. But at the same time,
36:08
the longer they keep this going, if they helped us, we could get her out tomorrow.
36:13
But the longer they keep this going, the more dirt I'm going to dig up on them and it's all going to be published. Right. Okay. So, the Pakistani establishment do not want uh just want this
36:25
to disappear. They want you to they want her to disappear. They want her to disappear. They want her to die in FMC cars. Well, is what they want. Okay. So, you don't think you're going to get very
36:36
much from from the Pakistani establishment? I don't care. I really don't care about them. I I enjoy this thing. I think it helps us to have them doing all their silly shenanigans. But and
36:47
you know, if they did their job properly, which I don't think they ever will, we could get her
36:52
out very quickly. But if they're not going to do that, I don't care what they do because I can get her out. It's just a matter of doing the work. Is Afia still? I mean, she was seen to be
37:02
the daughter of the nation. I mean, she was, you know, Pakistanis feel deeply uh connected to her
Pakistani people sentiment on Aafia
37:08
and emotional about what happened to her. I mean it does that still remain in Pakistan? Oh is more than that now. I mean she is the most famous woman in Pakistan by far. Yeah. Um she's got the support
37:20
of all the people effectively. It's going to get better because we're going to expose what's really
37:26
going on and there certain rumors have gone around but we can debunk it all now. But it more than
37:32
that she's becoming a figure across the world. Right. And when we were last time I talked to you,
37:38
we were doing that stuff in Washington. In like three weeks, we got 1.7 million signatures for
37:46
her clemency. And you know, that was the biggest one in America at that point. It was astounding.
37:53
I don't know how many times you've got 1.7 million for you. I I've never had that, you know. Sadly,
37:59
not what's the next step? So no, we you know we didn't get clemency for for Afia. The Pakistani
What is next for Aafia?
38:06
authorities aren't really not uh in the frame of mind to to help here. Um so your focus is on
38:14
um building a case in America itself and we build the case and I've already uh sent a draft to the
38:21
US attorneys. I met with them about a month ago. Okay. And there are two things. These are federal
38:26
attorneys. Yeah. They're the federal prosecutors and they're decent people. They take their job seriously. Okay. Um and so and the US attorney in New York went to King's College Cambridge and my
38:37
mother was admission secretary there. So we've got, you know, we go back a long time. Yeah. Um
38:43
so we've got two different avenues. One is what's a habius corpus. It's called the 2255 there which
38:51
is a challenge to the legality of the conviction. Yeah. And for various complicated reasons I won't
38:56
bore your um watches with Weaton. we can really do them on that. We can win it. And we have a
39:03
great innocence claim. And the innocence claim isn't just that she didn't fire the gun. It's
39:08
that if she was a kidnapped victim, which we can now demonstrate beyond any doubt. Yeah. She
39:14
could shoot who she wanted because when you're kidnapped, you can shoot your way out. So we've
39:20
got a very strong case of innocence and all sorts of other legal issues. But then the second thing,
39:25
the compromise is the there's a motion for compassionate release because she's got the
39:32
second longest sentence in US history in the last 41 years on this and because everything the judge
39:40
relied on turns out to be false because the CIA was lying to him. Um I think we have a very strong
39:47
case for them just to say look she's done a total now of 22 years which is more than most people
39:54
do on those charges anyhow. Yeah. So just let her go and we've got an an arrangement with a foreign
40:01
country that I won't say who uh who have agreed to take her. We'll fund it ourselves. We'll give
40:07
her the treatment she needs and then it can all go away. And the advantage of that is no one actually
40:13
has to admit they got it wrong. Yeah. They can just say we're being compassionate. So I think
40:18
we'll achieve that. You know, the American system grinds slowly. So but but I'm going to file the
40:26
actual one in court in the next couple of weeks and know we'll get a route next year. Really? Next
American system
40:32
year. Fantastic. Okay. I mean the American system of course is a very heavily politicized system and
40:38
um um is there an appetite within this administration within the department of Pam
40:45
Bondi within you know uh the Trump administration to really do something about about that? Well,
40:52
I'd like to think we'll get the US attorneys on side really. Um but we don't need them,
40:58
you know, because we've got a federal judge and a federal judge is a Democrat appointment. He's an elderly Jewish guy. Yeah. Reasonable fellow. Um and I think he's going to be ang
41:09
angry at what he was um falsely told. And it no one we don't get to blame anyone because
41:15
the prosecutors didn't know. Yeah. The judge didn't know. They're all innocent. So in the end,
41:22
we can do all of this in a collegiate way. And you know, I think we can get to where we need to
41:28
get to. But we'll have to see. I mean, I've been wrong before on that. So, I hope I'm not wrong this time. Okay. I mean, it's it's a really it's good news if if we say next year possibly. Yeah,
Aafia’s son Sulaiman
41:38
I think so. Aia will be released. That's great. Uh, do we know anything about Afia's son, uh,
41:43
Sol Man, who went missing on the day of abduction? Well, I've got to I'm going to read you something
41:48
I just came across in Afal. I've been doing lots of stuff while I've been away. And this is this is really just very sad. I came across a poem she wrote in Erdo. Yeah. You'll have to
42:01
do the erdo bit, but I'll do the is terrible. So you Okay, I will do it in English then. And the
42:07
first three lines are these. You have snatched my young children from their mother. One you killed,
42:14
the others you took away from me. For what crime did you kill a six-month-old baby? That's a poem
42:22
she was writing. And that's just so sad. Now, you know, when I first got involved in this, I thought, poor Sullean's dead, right? sort of like the Mattie Macccan case here in Britain. Um,
42:33
you know, almost certainly it must be that poor Maddie is dead. And it's a very difficult question
42:39
and I'd be interested in what your listeners and watchers think. But you got two choices after 22
42:47
years. Would you rather know your child was dead and be able to grieve and come to some sort of
42:55
uh you know not ever resolution but at least try to deal with it or would you like to cling
43:02
to that little hope that he's still alive? Which would you go for? I suppose a second. Right. Well,
43:09
I I find it's about 50/50 interestingly. Yeah. more men um go for the hope actually surprisingly
43:17
in my experience. Um but you know I thought they're just a bit naive if they think this poor
43:24
child's still alive until I learned all the other stuff you know that they really did put Mariam in
43:31
forcible adoption and only got her back because the Afghans forced them to otherwise Mariam would
43:39
still be gone. So and and the Afghans did that. This was during the American occupation. Yeah.
43:45
This was in 2010, right? And it was because Faia met with um Ahmed Kazi in Islamabad,
43:53
told him the whole sad story. Yeah. And it touched him and he went back and told the Americans, you got to turn this girl over. Right. I mean, there's not very many people who can say positive
44:03
things about Ham Karazi. That's really pretty. Well, I met him the other day and I don't have a lot of positive things to say about him myself, I'm afraid. But uh but he did that good thing and
44:14
for that I'm grateful to him. And so when you learn the details of that you think well maybe
44:20
you know Sulean it's not easy to just kill a child right and so maybe Sulean was forcibly
44:27
adopted too and you know he's in Baltimore or something. So, what we've done is that we've done
44:34
AI pictures of him and we we you can go through them and I'll show them to you, but I don't know
44:42
if people will see these terribly well, but we can get close-ups of him. And so, that's what he would look like if you know a year or two after he was abducted. That's when he's about
44:53
eight. That's when he's about 14. That's when he's 18. And that's what he'd look like today.
45:00
So, what we're going to do is run a campaign across America, hopefully with some celebrity
45:05
support, where we say with this and also with a lot of Afghan children because I was shocked to
45:13
discover when I was researching this that in the last year of the American occupation, 1,450 Afghan
45:21
children were taken to America with very dubious legality. So if we run all of this and we're going
45:28
to hold a conference I hope in Kabul where we get all the families to come forward who are missing
45:34
children because they can't get their kids back right I mean they don't have the money to do that so we can do it for them and that way we can run this as a project and some children in America who
45:46
are adopted and don't know their bi biological parents if they want to find out they can come
45:52
forward and then we'll see if we can't match them and And I hope perhaps we'll find Sulean and that
45:58
would be wonderful. Um and if we don't that's very sad but maybe one day uh the authorities will have
46:06
the courage to be honest about it. Sulleman could be living with a family in America at this moment
46:13
and he may be alive and we we just don't we don't know and you can't you know when you think about
46:18
the Macs they've struggled for so long and I feel for them so much. Yeah. Um, but you know, it was
46:26
me as a parent, I'd be doing the same thing, I think. Yeah. And so, we can't just leave them in. I think it's just torture to Afia to tell her that she's just got to take our word for it that,
46:39
you know, you can't have him back. You know, that's just wrong. And how is how are Afia's
46:45
other children, Ahmed and Maria? Well, you know, look, I see them every time I go to Pakistan,
Aafia’s children Traumatised
46:51
and they're still incredibly traumatized. And they're not just traumatized by what they went
46:56
through. They're traumatized by the fact that they've been told if they speak out on this,
47:02
it'll bring trouble. They've seen the dead bodies outside the house that have been dumped there. I
47:08
mean, honestly, I I think the people who do that have no shame, and it's disgusting. And I always
47:14
view my job as I don't like bullies. And sometimes I think the only thing bullies understand is being
47:21
bullied back. And you know, I'm very privileged and I can do those sorts of things. And uh it just
47:28
pisses me off that the authorities are doing that to these children still. Right. So it's a question
47:35
I ask you all the time, but what what can we do? Like where do you need help? Good, good, good, good. Yes, I can exploit all of you. Don't worry. Yeah. No, seriously. There's no person who doesn't
47:46
have a talent that can be put to use. One of the things I really would like help on is I want
47:52
interventions in front of this judge from people. Afia's treatment in Kwell is horrible. We haven't
47:59
been allowed to get a independent doctor in to see her. We haven't been allowed to get an imm
48:08
love the guy. he's really a decent fellow and he lives there and he's willing to go see her
48:13
and he would be wonderful for her. Um, and they won't let him in and they won't say why. So,
48:19
one of the things I want to do for the judge in New York is have an intervention from both doctors and imams separately, what's called an amicus brief where they intervene and they say,
48:30
you know, we're just a bit shocked that the prison won't let people in. And I want as many MMs to join that and as many doctors or nurses or medical professionals to
48:42
join us. All of whom they just have to sign off on a brief that'll be filed, you know,
48:47
won't cost him anything that just says, you know, let this poor woman have health care, let her have
48:53
spiritual solace. Yeah. So anyone who who either is a medical professional or you know a spiritual
49:00
person you know imam of some sort or who can help us get those people signed up would be really
49:07
helpful. Now beyond that, you know, there's lots of other, you know, talents that people have. I
49:14
I'd love some help with our searching for Sullean project, you know, someone to manage that project,
49:21
someone who knows how to do AI reconstructions properly, you know, all those sorts of things.
49:27
And then there might be some young person out there because let's face it, I'm about to insult
49:33
you because you're not as old as me. I'm old and gray and full of sleep. Yeah. Um that some
49:40
young people have some great idea involving modern fake technology that I seriously don't understand.
49:46
Yeah. That we can do that'll magnify this. This there we're in the middle of doing a two-part
49:52
Alazer. Oh um program on it. Okay. They've been with me to Afghanistan. Not this time the time
49:59
before. And you know they're into doing a podcast. They're into doing they really love the searching
50:04
for Sullean project. So, you know, we use that to magnify all of this and to change the narrative
50:10
from some of the nonsense into positive things. And then what people can also do because people
50:17
always think they can do nothing but they can is they can still write to Afia and whatever you do,
50:24
don't say you pity her, say you're inspired by her. You send the letters to me through letters
50:30
for afargmail.com. Mhm. Um, and you know, I can send them in as legal mail to her and that helps
50:38
her survive in the nightmare that is Carwell. So, you know, lots of And if people have other ideas,
50:44
you're welcome to put my email out there, okay? Which is um clivestaffordsmith2020@gmail.com
50:52
and you can send me all the things that you want to help on. And you can always donate to
50:58
the Afia movement fund because this is expensive. This trip to Afghanistan was8 or9,000. Really?
51:06
Yeah. Okay. And how can they how can we donate to Well, there's the there's a we I can give you a
51:12
link. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll send you that. Okay. Fantastic. So, we can uh we'll get our viewers to
51:17
write letters to continue to write letters. I mean, I think the first time we did that, she got a fair number of letters. Yeah. And it was good. And you know what? she gets them and they're
Write letters to Aafia
51:27
they're encouraging her and then when she's being abused in that prison, she takes your letters
51:33
and reads them out to the abusers and now that's cool. So, I'm really pleased for that. Okay. So,
51:39
uh they're searching for sole man. It seems like there must be some talented creatives out there in America. Yeah. Who are able to and they don't have to be in America. They can do it from here. But we
How to help?
51:49
do need some people celebrity types who know about this sort of thing. We need people who know about,
51:56
you know, forcible adoptions who can help us with the whole Afghan end of it. Yeah. And so
52:02
forth. Yeah. Right. So, we just really need as much help as possible from from people who will
52:08
be able to to keep this keep this alive. I mean, look, I I think um um from our side, you know, we
52:15
we would like to help you as much as possible. And I, you know, I I know you don't want to hear this, but it's, you know, it's wonderful what you're doing live for for Oh, I love doing it. It's uh
52:26
it really is a, you know, I I feel that I I don't know. Sometimes I feel that we haven't done enough
52:33
for a, you know, I'm glad that we've got someone like you that um coming along to bully you into
52:39
doing more. You haven't got your Casio watch on today? No, it's in my jacket pocket because um because you know the problem with Casios is that uh they I break them about every seven months
52:53
I break them and I've got to it just happened to me two days ago and I've got to get a new strap. Is there anything else? Perhaps I'm not planning to build a bomb. You know that that's
53:04
a link. I mean for those let's keep that as a cliffhanger for those who who want to know the rationale behind the connection be behind Casios and bombs they need to watch a previous show they
53:14
do don't they they do need to watch that right so okay apart from that so we we're um we need
53:20
to galvanize the community but Muslim community I would imagine in America would be very helpful
53:26
here um we want everyone to Cly Stafford Smith thank you so much for your time today my pleasure
53:35
Please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head over to our website thinkingmuslim.com to sign up to my weekly newsletter.