Ep 237. - MAGA and Mamdani with Imam Tom Facchine
The return of Donald Trump to office raises the question of how far Americans have moved away from the ideas that underpinned its rise to globalism after 1945. What is Make America Great Again, and how important is this moment.
I am here in New York with Imam Tom Facchine, one of the most astute commentators of America politics in our community. We look at the MAGA movement and the Mamdani moment. What does his victory mean for our community and how should we judge Zohran’s politics? Imam Tom Facchine is research director at Yaqeen Institute.
You can find Yaqeen Institute here:
X: https://x.com/yaqeeninstitute
IG: https://www.instagram.com/yaqeeninstitute?
Become a member here:
https://www.thinkingmuslim.com/membership
You can also support The Thinking Muslim through a one-time donation: https://www.thinkingmuslim.com/Donate
Listen to the audio version of the podcast:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7vXiAjVFnhNI3T9Gkw636a
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-thinking-muslim/id1471798762
Sign up to Muhammad Jalal's newsletter: https://jalalayn.substack.com
Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
and the disillusionment that people feel when it comes to the corruption of the American
0:05
political system from top to bottom new York City is so expensive that even the delies have to sell drugs uh in order to pay the rent how would you describe make America great
0:14
again make America great again I think is the greatest phrase ever used in politics right
0:20
maga is a project that is born out of the Tea Party movement the uh the good old days
0:26
rolling back uh America to a point where yeah racial segregation was the norm and apartheid
0:31
was the norm and so what does the grain of truth the MAGA movement represents I'm here in New York with Imam Tom Fikini one of the most astute commentators of American politics
0:41
within the Muslim community we look at the MAGA movement and the Mandani moment what does his
0:48
victory mean for our community and how should we judge Zaharan's polic Namani says "I'm only
0:56
focused on New York." That is a radical message then that is not just the lesser of two evils
1:01
that that is a strategic win for the Muslim community and it has to be taken seriously
1:11
tom Finalamikum and welcome to the Thinking Muslim here in New York it's a pleasure to be
1:18
together anywhere in the world welcome to the United States i think you you're one of the few guests in fact the only guest now that's been to our London studio our Istanbul studio
1:27
and now inshallah it's not quite a studio but our our New York setup alhamdulillah i'll expect my award in the mail yeah you your your award
1:35
is another thinking Muslim month now it's my my honor well look Jazakare for for joining us and um the I suppose the plan today is to to really understand Trump's America and I've
1:46
been here for a couple of weeks or a week in a bit and u I'm just getting a feel for the politics of
1:52
his country and and how people are responding we're in the midst of a crisis over Iran and
1:59
Israel uh but um some things have really struck me in particular um uh magism and and Trumpism
2:07
and what that really means so I want to get to the the details today and understand uh ideologically
2:13
what does all of that mean for for uh for American society but let's start with the immediate we're
New York mayoral elections
2:19
here in New York and uh we're we're meeting on the day of the primary election uh for Democratic
2:27
mayor sort of Democratic mayoral candidates will be uh will be or candidate will be elected today
2:34
and uh Zahan Mani is tipped to be potentially uh the Democratic mayoral candidate now how important
2:42
is this contest you think alhamdulillah uh always an honor i we're ditching the imam's hat today
2:50
because we're only talking about politics um so the New York mayoral race is very important it's
2:58
the largest city in the United States um it has a extremely vibrant Muslim community of different
3:06
you know generations we've got you know indigenous African-Americans we've got I mean this is
3:12
you know Harlem is one of the epicenters of of Malcolm X movement and you know there's there's a lot of history and a lot of Muslim investment and tradition in the city
3:24
um obviously culturally and otherwise financially New York City is you know at the heart of of
3:32
America the mayoral race is extremely significant particularly because of what the race has become
3:39
about and I think that the race as we've seen the competition mostly between Cuomo and Mandani
3:48
uh shape up or at least get more focused the race primarily is about two things it's about
3:54
affordability which ties into the MAGA question okay we can't talk about America and political
4:03
movements and ideological movements in America without talking about neoliberalism and the
4:09
dominance of neoliberalism over the United States and the suffocating hold it has over US economy
4:17
and policy that the average and we've talked about this on this platform before the average American has not seen real wages increase in decades the average American used to have the mythology of
4:30
the American dream which is supposed to be the selling point of coming here of living here of
4:35
staying here which is that anybody should be able to come here and subscribe to the Constitution and
4:41
work hard and you should be able to move up the ladder socially and have a lower middle class
4:47
lifestyle that dream has been obliterated it's been dead it's been dead for decades new York
4:53
is a microcosm of that people cannot afford to live in New York City new York City is so
4:59
expensive that even the delies have to sell drugs uh in order to pay the rent and that
5:06
people are leaving there is flight there's But there's another part of the story which is not just the affordability but the powerlessness that people feel and the disillusionment that
5:16
people feel when it comes to the corruption of the American political system from top to bottom
5:22
that makes people in some cases turn to drug use and other people any sort of
5:28
escape Netflix whatever or worse than that okay this is all tied together because the
5:37
crisis of affordability the loss of you know degrees university degrees are now useless
5:44
large in large part you can get a PhD and you can make less than an electrician you are still our education system is a joke okay the the types of debt that people are coming out
5:55
if they just have a bachelor they're coming out with tens of thousands of dollars in debt that
6:00
straddles them for their entire lives um like any healthare any tick anything that has to do
6:06
with just good governance and people's ability to to have a decent quality of life or standard of
6:12
living and it is tanked at the same time what have the politicians been putting money into
6:19
Israel into the NYPD into not just the NYPD but the NYPD again
6:26
as a symbol of bloated police regimes that terrorize the citizens of the city itself
6:37
especially when they try to exercise their first amendment rights that they are spied on they are
6:42
treated like criminals people it's a little bit hackne to say but they talk about police state and
6:49
especially in a place like New York City it feels like a police state sometimes and you could even
6:55
maybe get away with a police state if you could afford rent if rent wasn't half to twothirds of
7:01
your income But when the city is so unaffordable and corruption is so rampant and people see that
7:08
there's all of these that you know oh Israel has healthcare Israel has free university Israel has
7:14
state-of-the-art weapons how many billions of dollars are spent how many billions of dollars are sent what are the the numbers that are coming in and out of the campaigns people are fed up
7:23
but people have been fed up fed up for a long time the layer of paying attention to Israel and that connection is somewhat new and we'll talk about that I think in some of the other questions that
7:31
you have but people have been fed up with the corruption in US politics for a long time what
7:36
hasn't happened in a long time is people being able to believe in the system changing or at
7:44
least being able to get some change to get some handle some control some vector of of expression
7:51
of grievance that will be taken seriously and that is the significance of Mandani's
7:56
uh candidacy for mayoral election everybody else in that race is a cynical candidate a
8:02
candidate that represents cynicism whether it's the incumbent Eric Adams who's corrupt beyond
8:08
measure Cuomo who is also corrupt beyond measure the other candidates if you saw the debate which
8:14
descended into the most absurd theater of feelalty and uh genulection towards Israel where are you
8:23
going to go on your first foreign trip as mayor of New York everybody has to kiss the ring say
8:29
I'm going to the Holy Land going to Israel but my fourth you get to brag it's my fourth time to Israel look at this americans are watching that can't feed themselves that can't afford rent
8:38
they're watching this and then Mani says "I'm only focused on New York." That is a radical
8:45
message that is a message that contains a lot of hope behind it and people have dared to start to
8:51
hope that they can bring the city back under their control and that government might be able to work
8:56
for them or at least stop stealing from them as much assalamu aalaykum i'm Muniva Mazari from team
Donate to Baitulmaal
9:03
Bal Mad muharam marks the beginning of Islamic calendar a sacred month mentioned in Quran it's
9:09
the time for deep reflection spiritual renewal and honoring the significance of Ashuda as we
9:15
embrace this blessed month let's strengthen our faith and seek Allah's mercy by showing
9:21
compassion to our brothers and sisters in need through charitable giving we can provide vital
9:26
resources such as emergency aid food clean water shelter and education to the families who await
9:35
relief with hope may our compassion be the answer to their prayers and a source of blessings to all
Zohran Mamdani
9:45
so when we talk about elections we talk about candidates i don't like politicians i don't
9:51
trust politicians politicians are not um the people that I want to hang out with or be seen
9:56
with or talk to be frank and there's going to be a whole host of issues that we disagree with
10:05
we if we go in these things um with the expectation that you know this is the Khalifa and he's going to represent Islamic values and you know establish as much of
10:14
Islam as he can no I mean no one will pass that lit litmus test but you have to realize
10:22
that what you're taking away the threat that you're taking away by preventing someone like
10:30
Cuomo preventing someone like Adams preventing someone who's just totally bought and paid for
10:36
by Apac is worth the other things that might come with his mayorship that we might disagree
10:44
with oh especially last thing especially in the context of advocating for Palestine we're talking about a situation where whoever if it's Adams or Quuomo the
10:55
establishment candidates are going to criminalize the First Amendment when it comes to Palestine
11:00
they will do whatever the Israeli lobby says yeah israelis don't care about the Constitution
11:06
israelis don't care about the Bill of Rights is Israel will take the Constitution and throw it in the toilet and flush it down whatever they have to do they don't believe in free speech
11:15
they don't believe in in the right to assembly or the right to protest or or or the press they will do they don't believe in it in their own lands they don't believe in it here they will
11:23
do anything they can to silence descent and so who are you going to turn over your city
11:28
to what are the possibilities that you create for yourself in the same city where Columbia University is in the same city that Mahm Khal was just released and reunited with his family
11:37
what possibilities are you creating to speak out to register your protest to draw attention to
11:45
the complicity and the active participation of the United States government and machinery in genocide
11:50
with these types of candidates versus someone like Meani just that ability the opportunity that that
11:57
creates alone in my opinion is worth having him there to prevent other people from being in that
12:04
same seat so so in a sense I mean your answer um it uh it is you are balancing the evils here and
12:12
you're in effect um you've concluded that Mani is uh the lesser of the two evils or or at least
12:20
Mamani is a better candidate maybe we can't even say he's an evil but he's a better candidate um
12:25
I would even caution because unfortunately we have totally abused this idea of lesser of two evils and so I I I try to assue that language as much as possible especially because it's not enough to be
12:36
the lesser of two evils that's not sufficient you need to have some indication that
12:44
opportunities will be created and that certain threats will be neutralized and off the table right you can have a situation of lesser of two evils and those things aren't there
12:53
in that case you can take your lesser of two evils and you can go whatever it doesn't matter anything
12:58
okay but in a situation in which the threat of criminalizing the Muslim community and spying on the Muslim community
13:04
and just having the the city level government in the pocket of Apac if that is taken off the table
13:11
Yeah then that is not just the lesser of two evils that that is a strategic win for the Muslim community and it has to be taken seriously
13:18
yeah and Mani to his credit and you know we're not praising anyone beyond their station there's a ton
13:24
of things that we're going to disagree about but to his credit has been pretty good on Palestine
13:30
he has indicated sacrifice and he has indicated principle he spoke out well he had a very very
13:35
public um you know um uh I don't know say outburst where he he spoke out very in very strong words
13:44
against the uh the criminalization of disscent and the use of ICE against New Yorkers um and the
13:51
ability to to protest against the genocide so he himself it's not even somebody who is telling us
13:57
with their words that they will protect protesters who are going to call attention to the genocide it's somebody who as a mayoral candidate that could have taken a safer route decided to do that
14:09
himself it shows a propensity to sacrifice for principles in a way that I think is encouraging
14:15
is it you know we have to temper expectations but I think is encouraging enough that this particular
14:20
race and listen the other other races for for the mayor of New York previously I wouldn't even pay
14:26
attention to they're all evil they're all in the in the pocket of Apac no one cracks that
14:31
threshold to be like that wow this person is actually worth supporting because it's going to actually be a strategic win for the Muslim community and take major threats off the table
14:40
but I believe that with his particular candidacy that is the case that that him having him there in
14:46
office will take certain threats completely off the table that are very important and strategic to the Muslim community imam Tom there isn't an argument that um we get presented with on on very
Muslim political candidates
14:56
many occasions which is fine even a candidate may be good on one or two issues they may be good on
15:01
Palestine but the system is far more powerful and and the system can influence that candidate and
15:09
bring them into line I mean we've got examples of Muslim politicians in the UK who may have
15:14
come up you know who may have started there was one particular politician uh who uh only five years prior to becoming the the Labour uh MP was demonstrating at a supermarket for Gaza right
15:26
you know demonstrating against uh the um uh the the goods that that that supermarket were selling
15:34
right so you know this was a a very righteous person who then joins the Labor Party who who
15:41
becomes a senior politician and within time forgets about Israel forgets about Gaza how do
15:48
we prevent these candidates from being consumed by the very system that they may have problems with
15:56
absolutely i mean there's there's three things I think to look for one of them is votes the second is money and the third is what is that person's relationship to the party in general yeah
16:06
okay when it comes to votes and money who funds you runs you that's the reality especially in the
16:14
United States where we have a pay-to-play system and and the campaign donations are wild encouraging is when a candidate like a Bernie Sanders or a Mandani comes along and
16:24
the average donation to their campaign is $80 $27 in the case of Bernie Sanders that
16:30
demonstrates a lack of being controlled by big money interests at least by degree
16:37
um and essentially as a pay-to-play system we have to realize that as Muslims we can just as easily
16:45
play the game and put money into the pot and then the politician is accountable to us as well
16:50
and the same goes for votes right and if the two conflict then votes actually win out over money which a lot of people aren't aware of that more important politicians want to stay
16:59
in their seats or they have ideas of having a career and raising up the ranks they need
17:05
votes if you can deliver votes and if you can deliver donations they are accountable to you
17:12
the mistake that we've made up until now is that we have related to politics and politicians in a purely identitarian way so we see someone and we say "Oh this person's
17:20
from our community that's our identity they check the box of course they're going to be loyal to us no they're not going to be loyal to you they're going to be loyal
17:28
to whoever pays their campaign right so we have to be we have to be a little bit more mchavelian we have to be a little bit more real politic with how we interact with politics
17:37
these people are not we're not going to be going to Washington making moral appeals please Mr
17:42
senator do the right thing no it's got to be I've got so many votes and I can control so much money and if you do what I say or if you stop doing this then you're going to get this in return yeah
17:51
that's the game and we've seen it work with other you know the the Zionist lobby is made
17:57
up of less people than the Muslim community right as a community we have just as much
18:03
money don't let anybody tell you different it's really just about organization and now
18:08
we're not willing to do everything that they're doing but the general attitude of how politics works has to shift we want almost like a consumerrist idea of
18:16
politics where we see someone coming down we relate we have an affinity or
18:22
um and we think that we'll be express loyalty and that person will then do us favors that's not how it's ever going to work it has to be just about votes and money and the
18:29
last thing which is important is sometimes you see people like Mdani and it's it's less common
18:34
the higher you go so at the city level it's common to find someone they have to run on the Democratic
18:39
ticket because you're forced to run on on a ticket especially in a closed primary state um but you'll find people that aren't aligned with the parties that they're kind of a black
18:48
sheep so to speak within the party itself and and the establishment within the party is sort
18:55
of like sitting on the fence trying to see is there anybody else that we can really do we
19:00
have to go with this guy and then if there's a popular enough movement that they're essentially
19:06
compelled to support this person um that is a positive indication right if somebody is going to be supported by Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the Clintons I'm
19:15
saying red flag like this is someone who is probably compromised uh to the core mhm
19:21
but if somebody is an outsider and they have a more tense relationship with you know with the
19:29
uh the party heads and figures and stuff like that then that is an indication of a possibility it's not a guarantee but it's an opportunity and a possibility i mean you were pillaried in the
Negating the Democrats?
19:38
election campaign for um supporting the sort of abandon Harris and abandon Biden campaign and I
19:45
think you took a very principled stance which was that we should not vote for the Democrats who were responsible for this genocide is it isn't there a danger of sending mixed messages now where
19:55
you're potentially supporting or at least you're you're saying that Mandani as a as a Democrat
20:02
uh is a better candidate than Cuomo shouldn't we just have a principle of of of negating the
20:08
Democrats as we do with the Republicans i think one of the strategic um aims of
20:14
the Muslim community to should be to influence and shape both parties all right and how is that done um in certain places like New York City it's going to be
20:24
the Democratic Party it's not going to be the Republican party so really the nine times out of 10 it's the Democratic Party primary that is going to really determine who's going to win yeah
20:34
that leaves you with very little room to maneuver that that determines the arena of the battlefield that you have to fight isn't Isn't the current mayor Adams standing
20:42
as an independent in the next election he is but he's not expected to really win right so he's been so corrupt and so his stock is down in fact the he was only slightly
20:51
rehabilitated by Trump like sort of at the end he was really really taking major major hits um but most people aren't giving him a serious shot many people are saying this is really
20:59
between Cuomo and and Mamani right um so you have to understand what is the arena and what is like
21:06
for example we ran the numbers in our area in in Pennsylvania in Allentown and at the city level
21:12
not at the it's actually a swing district when it comes to federal politics and even the state politics but at the local level the Democratic party runs everything so that happens to be the
21:20
arena in which you have to fight now what you want to do is you want to determine the course and the shape of where that party is headed on particular issues so that means you're
21:29
going to be involved in the primaries you want the Democratic party if there's going to be a
21:34
primary that you want a pro Palestine candidate to win over a pro-Israeli candidate it's that simple
21:41
now if you get to the point where let's say we have a primary and the pro-Israeli candidate
21:46
won then that triggers the general election now you punish because they didn't get the lesson
21:52
right so this is not it's not necessarily against principle it's about how are we steering and we
21:58
have to be able to steer both mhm and again this is how the Israeli lobby works they do
22:04
they play both they do they participate heavily in Republican primaries and also in Democratic
22:10
primaries as well there is a huge need for Muslims to get involved in Republican primaries especially
22:16
with where MAGA is headed and the whole fallout with you know Israel's stock is so down it's more
22:22
down than we could ever have anticipated people are questioning it and they're not like a year ago
22:27
people used to say and people used to say in the 2024 election to me that the only allies that we
22:33
have are on the left there's none on the right that's not true anymore it's not true anymore
22:41
in fact the right is moving faster than the left where it goes nobody can you know say for sure but
22:47
we have to participate in shaping where it goes so so in effect you are saying that the Muslim
Muslim political engagement
22:52
community here have to constantly be perpetually non-aligned yes they should sort of have a a democratic alliance a permanent democratic or a permanent
23:02
republic i mean isn't that a shift in in many ways you're you're calling for quite a strong quite an important shift in in in Muslim attitudes towards a political process
23:12
very much so and you know I'm actually writing a paper that I'm going to present at the American Muslim Jurist Association in August framing uh political engagement and social activism within
23:22
Sharia frameworks and and discourse and one of the things that that came about is realizing
23:30
studying the Constitution and studying the way that the political system is set up in the United States the Constitution is plastic okay the Constitution was meant to
23:40
be reinterpreted constantly the way that the American political system is set up
23:46
if you don't participate you're done for right you have to have sustained focused
23:52
strategic participation it demands a high level of awareness attention and participation if you don't
23:58
your enemies are going to hold all of the keys and levers to interpreting the Constitution it's going to determine the scope in which you have to act and advocate for your things right um and we see
24:08
this across the board on on first amendment issues on other types of issues it's being litigated and
24:15
adjudicated right in front of our eyes so it is a system that absolutely demands participation and
24:23
strategic participation so we abs absolutely we have to be non-aligned we can't be um there are
24:29
no permanent alliances even in there's no there's no permanent alliances there's hnah right there
24:35
are there are ceasefires there it has to come back to your principles and to your strategy and it's not strategic to be married to one particular party or the other in fact
24:44
that's what Muslims have largely done um for quite a while and it hasn't really demonstrated a lot of benefits in my opinion you're an imam and um I need to ask you then
Fiqh & political engagement
24:56
about the sort uh underpinning of this type of political activism because of course even
25:02
with someone like Mumani you know Mumani is very strong on Palestine and you know I think you've
25:07
said that he has suffered as a result of his very uh principled stance on Palestine Israel but at
25:14
the same time you know he may hold uh socially liberal views and the Muslim community until
25:20
Gaza came along were very exercised about how uh these democratic states in particular these
25:27
blue states were um uh were imposing a sort of social order upon them and their families um so
25:34
like how do we weigh up the importance of um foreign policy in this case you know
25:41
Palestine and the social liberal front because some would say that if you end up supporting
25:49
Muslim candidates who support uh socially problematic positions then you know we're
25:56
making the same mistake that we made previously by opening the doors up for our young Muslims
26:03
to be corrupted absolutely and there's you know there's very very important uh concerns that are
26:08
embedded with that critique but one thing that my paper goes into are two indigenous tools to
26:16
the scholarly tradition that I think are very very important for political engagement one of them is the uh so the the principles of um and one of the principles of that the
26:28
scholars have distilled from looking at as a whole the structure of as a whole yeah is that averting threats takes priority over obtaining benefits right
26:37
okay now this is key because what I see with much Muslim political engagement is that there's a lack
26:44
of prioritization okay that we have many issues that we have concerns about we have an interest on foreign policy we
26:50
have an issue and even foreign policy is not one thing right there's the extermination of our brothers and sisters genocide going on right now in Gaza uh and then there's
26:59
other things like relations with Europe or relations with other places so even that there there's room for nuance on that yeah uh healthcare and jobs and economy and first
27:08
amendment rights that all different things I have seen few people making a coherent prioritization
27:15
between all these issues so the which is that threats are much more important to avert than
27:23
any particular benefit that can be acred I think is important to how we sus out and prioritize the
27:30
second tool that we should be relying on is the mass not in the reformist progressive way that
27:36
most people unfortunately abuse the massid but in the sense that the massid presents a hierarchy of
27:42
prioritization right you have the the five massid and you also have levels of threat
27:49
that not every threat is the same so these massid are life and property yes life and and money and uh or we say wealth would be a better translation and you know some
27:59
are maybe more or less applicable like Buddha we wouldn't necessarily well we could put that in there i'll leave that untrated um Dean of course it's all there but there's levels almost
28:10
more important than the actual five of the are the levels of threat that we that we can discern
28:16
there are certain things that are threats at the level of the that means that that the bare level
28:21
essential the actual existence of the thing in and of itself is under threat yeah so for example if we were to seed the first amendment to the interpretation of the Israeli lobby da in America
28:34
would not be able to survive right they would if there are people out there that would criminalize the Quran if they were allowed their maximalist interpretation of what it was that they would
28:43
define terrorism they would define anti-semitism they would define free speech they would define all these things in such ways that would make it impossible to live as a Muslim let's talk about
28:52
France right like almost like a France-like situation where we can't even establish the pillars of our dean in America anymore and then now you're talking about a hijra conversation
29:00
when do you do you make hijra and when do you not so that's a level of threat to Dean which is one
29:05
of the five mass that is at the level that's is at a existential level and then there are levels that
29:12
are beneath that right the level like the needs the things that are very important pillars of that
29:18
uh of that or of that objective but even if they're under attack it's not going to result
29:24
in the complete obliteration annihilation of that entire uh objective in the first place and then there's there are things that are nice to have luxuries to have they're good things to have but
29:34
they're not really at the level of an existential threat or even at the next level so this type
29:40
of nuance I think is very very important for us to to map out the political issues
29:47
um according to these frameworks and to be able to say that and also to be able to to ascertain
29:54
what opportunities do we have to fight back okay so if we get Mam Dani for example
30:00
uh let's say that Mamani is pro-LGBTQ in a certain way but he's also pro good governance that means
30:07
that he is committed to certain process points of community input that gives us a window to fight
30:14
rather than somebody who is uh they're so pro-LGBTQ and there this is the only mandate and
30:20
there's no opting out and there's no anything that you can do you know besides it and then if we have to weigh that compared to again first amendment Israeli lobby the ability to protest and speak
30:30
out about about Palestine and Israel then we would say okay well we'll ask we'll avert this threat
30:36
which is an existential threat and we realize that there is a threat maybe at the level of hijat or something that's here but we have a clear opportunity to also push back against that threat
30:45
even within this then we can run the numbers and say we think it's worth it is it risk- free no
30:50
guess what this is life nothing is risk-free right but we can at least say we made the calculations
30:56
the calculations make sense and this makes sense as a political investment and an investment for the community and we're ready for the fight in this other area and that's the key part and that's
31:05
why unfortunately a lot of people who resort to just lesser of two evils they've got no day after
31:10
plan it's just you vote for the lesser of two evils and you walk away and fall asleep for four years that's not how the American political system works you have to pay attention every day every
31:19
week every month every year you have to be present in the schoolboard meetings you have to be present at the city hall meetings not everybody can do it but we have to start just like Allah says in surah
31:28
to Toba about how not all of you should go out in uh you know fighting in the way of Allah that some
31:34
should stay back and study the dean that there is there is room for differentiation that we need to start having our community set up where there there's a of a certain amount of people that
31:43
are in these meetings representing our interests reporting back letting us know when threats are coming down the pipeline when somebody wants to set up a casino in Irving Texas next to the masid
31:54
uh that's put out by Zionist money or whatever so that we're able to respond to these things
The Muslim American community
31:59
yeah how joined up are the Muslim community when it comes to or is the Muslim community when it
32:05
comes to this sort of way of thinking about about politics i mean I I did attend a a a
32:12
gathering of brothers and sisters in in New York uh in New Jersey in fact uh last week and I was
32:18
um alhamdulillah it was it was really wonderful to see just how organized some communities are
32:24
and and how they're thinking about the microlevel politics and and you know as you said the school
32:30
boards and and the sort of municipality elections and thinking about how to navigate the different
32:36
personalities and groups and parties uh within in that space uh but I wonder whether um the Muslim
32:44
community as a whole has thought about that level of organization yeah i mean that's I think the the
32:51
task of the hour and one would be I think correct to even call into question do we have such a thing as a singular Muslim community true
32:58
uh we talk about it like that but in reality there are vast differences and we have to have difficult conversations across communities that have different interests yeah um you know there
33:07
were sectors of the African-American community that were very critical of uh the position of of punish Harris and punish the Democrats and some of them had very good reasons for that
33:16
right um there's also a lot of of experience and knowledge within African-American communities
33:22
of doing these things so we need to make the community which is part of the work of
33:29
infrastructure and coordination that we're is the phase that we're in right now where there
33:34
is disparity there are some communities that are smashing it that are doing amazing and there are some communities that are really not even paying attention to it at all
33:42
and right now we're in the process of trying to learn and coordinate and get on the same page and
33:48
also have dialogue um I think that this is much more important than dialoguing with people outside
33:53
of the community i think that you know we have we have leaned so far into uh interfaith and showing
33:59
up to this and showing up to that but we haven't really taken the time to attend to the home team
34:05
uh in my estimation that if we're able to bridge these gaps and get on the same page and learn from
34:10
one another and and form a coherent strategy or at least even principles and even if we dis we
34:16
disagree on on on some things that we can start talking about a Muslim American community and we
34:23
can start moving together as a Muslim American community um now I want to understand Donald
MAGA
34:28
Trump and his base and I think that's a really interesting phenomenon to to understand i probably
34:33
come to the wrong city uh to to do that but um Staten Island right you can go to Staten Island
34:39
i I know that you've you've studied you've looked at Donald Trump you've looked at you know um his his philosophy actually what do we call MAGA what do we call this sort
34:49
of I've called it magaism i'm not even sure if that's that's a term that's used it like is it a philosophy is it an ideology is it a project how would you describe Make America Great Again
35:00
maga is a project that is born out of the Tea Party movement um you can't
35:06
again this comes back to our first thing you can't understand the trends in American politics if you don't understand the vice grip that the average American is in by neoliberalism
35:17
the you know this is a very different country than the 50s and the 60s when this was the world leader
35:23
in industry and and you know people average person you know my father could have a working-class job
35:29
and take care of the family and buy a house that America is a is a memory
35:34
it's gone across the west across yes exactly why is it gone it's gone because society has moved in a way where the government and the corporations have
35:44
worked in cahoots and there's a legal dimension to it there's also a capitalist dimension to it where they have removed the fedters and the guard rails so that both the government through its
35:55
taxation and also through the corporations and prices and the cost of living and also commodification have squeezed and squeezed and squeezed and squeezed everybody to the
36:06
point where people are lonier than ever their families are falling apart birth rates are down divorces are way up people are addicted to opioids they're they're things are not good
36:19
in the '9s right some of the the um the political trends that came out of
36:26
the '90s like the third way Democrats okay the third way Democrats which was started by by Clinton was a radical departure or a somewhat radical departure for the Democrats
36:35
that basically said you know what we're going to try to be like the Republicans
36:42
it closed the gap very much and it actually brought with NAFTA being signed and all of what happened during the Clinton era this formed a type of consensus
36:52
a type of consensus around a neoliberal politics and even a certain type of interventionism abroad
36:58
even if there were some differences that you saw the differences between the two parties
37:03
narrowing and narrowing and narrowing yeah in the end of the 90s and especially after the after 911
37:10
what you're getting is the neoonservatives the neoconservative movement they were again hardly
37:19
distinguishable from the Democrats in some ways right they were pro- big corporations they were
37:25
pro-intervention they were war hawks they were all these sorts of things that there came to be certain consensus points between these two political movements
37:35
uh the third the third way Democrats and the neocons that hadn't been there before
37:41
right and these points of consensus were very
37:46
bad for the American public okay when it just came to again things like wages basic things services
37:52
etc we got the rapid privatization of everything uh higher education became very unaffordable it
37:59
became uh modeled on the corporate models of cutting costs and maximizing profits across
38:05
the board 2008 recession happens there start to be political shock waves and responses to the
38:16
consensus the consensus starts to crack people are starting to become aware that the consensus is not
38:22
good for the American people what are some of the movements that come out you could say the Obama
38:29
wave was potentially one of them okay the Tea Party movement was definitely another one of them
38:35
the Tea Party movement on the right yes and we're not you know like listen movements
38:40
are made up of several different strands right some of those strands are really ugly
38:47
we're talking you know nivism and racism and white supremacy and things of that nature but I also
38:52
do think that it is a little simplistic to gloss those movements as only being made up of that it
38:59
was also very much a rebellion against the neocon movement and the incumbency of the neocons so the
39:07
Republican party was actually dramatically changed by the Tea Party movement around the same time
39:14
just as the Democratic party for a little bit it looked like it was about to be changed by Obama it ended up not being changed by Obama really looked like it was about to be changed by Bernie Sanders
39:22
and then the Democratic party sabotaged Bernie Sanders because of what he represented which was going to be somewhat of a radical change for the party debbie Wasserman Schultz and all the things
39:31
that they pulled in order to make sure that Bernie couldn't actually um succeed within the Democratic party so then social media happens now you've got the democratization of media
39:44
you've got people getting their news from different sources you got people putting pieces together that they hadn't been able to put together before because they're not
39:51
going to make CNN or Fox News this is how you understand the rise of the MAGA movement that
39:59
the the same sense of the rebellion against the neoconservative incumbency which by the
40:05
way the neocons are still there we still we've seen recently with Iran right the neocons are still there but their stock is down and their time seems limited
40:15
you know there was a time when I remember John McCain singing bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
40:21
Iran and that was like a consensus point look at how far the right has shifted since then
40:26
right so this is not to paint it as a as with with rose tinted glasses there's a lot of problems with
40:33
these movements and these p move movements they they they grasp at certain um you know ideologies
40:39
or symbols that are completely misinformed and misguided and some of them extremely problematic
40:45
such as the nativism the anti-immigrant sentiment um the uh the good old days rolling back uh
40:51
America to a point where yeah racial segregation was the norm and apartheid was the norm um all
40:57
problematic things but I believe as an axiom that when a lot of people are moved by something
41:05
there's usually a grain of truth in it right and so what is the grain of truth that the MAGA m the MAGA movement represents it is a
41:14
tremendous rebellion against the neoconservative domination and the perception which is correct
41:21
that American politics are corrupt and they do not represent the American people yeah trump was
41:28
able to exploit that movement and that sentiment for his own political career is he a true believer
41:36
in making America great again everything that that represents I don't think so right
41:43
personally I don't see Trump as an ideologue even if he has done a couple things and he's
41:48
talked about draining the swamp and he has defunded and slashed even sabotaged tariffs and Yeah yeah yeah the the three-letter
41:56
agencies and US aid and all these things it's hard to tell what's done from a position of that's his
42:03
actual belief that that should happen and what is just expedient for him
42:08
so yeah sorry yeah it could be both but the point is that it has created a movement even if let's take the the situation of
42:15
possibility that he's completely transactional and has no actual belief in the ideology
42:21
whatsoever yeah it's still a movement with true believers so the movement transcends absolutely
MAGA influencers
42:27
Donald Trump because before I came here I mean I used Sammy Hy used to say this to me that you've got you know commentators like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owen and Steven Bannon of course
42:37
Steve Bannon and they have enormous influence and I've always sort of felt that maybe he's
42:44
exaggerated possibly their influence because of course how can influencers have that level
42:49
of influence over career politicians or overseas politicians or over people like Donald Trump so
42:55
there's a personality yes leadership there and magnaism is very much connected to the person
43:00
but I think what we've seen and I' I've become to become more aware of this as I I've I've come here
43:06
to the US that Tucker Carlson does have enormous respect and influence uh amongst the base and the
43:13
base are questioning Donald Trump in particular over the this Iran action yes so so you know
43:19
flesh that out i think the Iran uh situation was a perfect illustration of this dynamic
43:26
that if you look at Candace Owens Matt Walsh Tucker
43:31
Carlson the level of betrayal that they felt by even the possibility that the United States would
43:40
act at all yeah and they're still going hard like as we speak as of the recording of this session
43:46
like they're they're still going on this issue that and the message that they're sending they're
43:51
saying that both parties are corrupt neither party represents the American people that the American
43:58
people have been getting a raw deal and now the piece of the puzzle that they have put together that the Tea Party didn't put together is the Israeli lobby and the Zionist interest
44:08
right you know and it's interesting because you know a lot of people say "Oh well these people are Islamophobes and they would you know wipe you out or they want to see you whatever." It's like
44:15
maybe they do right now they haven't yet peeled back that layer but peeling back the Zionist layer
44:20
might lead some of them to that layer because if they start to sniff the way that the Zionist
44:27
movement and the Israeli lobby has deliberately participated in the smearing of Islam and Muslims
44:35
it's not too hard to imagine that layer being peeled back as well so we see that
44:41
it's birectional that they both represent the feelings of a lot of people and they do exert
44:48
a lot of influence you've we've never seen a situation like this where Israel is under such
44:56
scrutiny and people are fed up with the free ride that Israel has been given from the United States
45:04
bipartisan consensus for decades and decades and decades this is a revolt and Trump just based off
45:11
of his personality is somebody who is sensitive enough I think to his ego and his legacy that he
45:18
actually can be steered by some of these these things um how much and against all of the other
45:25
influences that he's under who knows yeah but the fact that
45:30
the movement that he has become the figurehead of now is developing its own politics that
45:38
has a mechanism to actually perhaps hold accountable certainly identify a betrayal
45:47
identify betrayal to the ethos of that movement that is something that's a positive development
45:53
we've never seen this happen at this scale or on the right and because the right has traditionally
46:00
been the home of the most ardent evangel look at what what Tucker Cross did to Ted Cruz
46:05
ted Cruz represents that older generation of neocons that used to be it was a consensus you can you know the Lindsey Grahams and the Randy Fines this is the old style but look at how much
46:15
their stock is down how exposed they've been and how many people are turning against them
46:21
it really makes you wonder what the political scene will be like in 5 years from now
MAGA & Israel
46:26
yeah yeah I mean I I want to focus in on that um that Tucker Carlson interview
46:31
in particular and and just how far he went on Israel because it it just seems to me and again maybe I haven't followed it closely enough but he was going further than most on the right or
46:41
most on the MAGA riot where uh he was questioning whether uh the US state whether the administration
46:47
should be actually funding the Israelis and should be giving this blank check to Israel whether you
46:52
know what's happening in Gaza is a direct response to uh the way in which the American state treats
47:01
uh Israel with with complete impunity and and gives it free a free leash to do whatever
47:06
it wants um like talk to that like why why is it that Israel and uh has become now so
47:13
uh contentious amongst amongst these people part of it is the democratization of media
47:19
and the timing the live the live streaming of genocide yeah is something that is completely again unprecedented the democratization has of media has given people a window into a
47:31
moral quandry everybody is tested by the moment in which we live
47:38
that if you are anyone with a shred of morality or a shred of ascription to a religious tradition
47:45
this is probably maybe the major spiritual test of your life okay but Imam Tom you know you would say like we would think that the the Democrats right you
Democrats vs Republicans
47:54
know who've got this sort of liberal moralism about them uh but the Democrats will be far
47:59
more alert to just the horrible nature of this genocide but it's not the genoc and large uh
48:06
even people like AOC are completely deaf to This is what Malcolm X tried to tell us right when he told us that you know you would rather have the uh the wolf that's
48:17
snarling at you to your face than the fox that smiles at you and stabs you in the back
48:23
he's talking about the liberals he's talking about the liberals for a second when the conservative bigot uh speaks from a place of hatred against
48:31
Islam that is usually a sincerely held belief even if it's profoundly misguided
48:39
whereas when the liberals smile in our faces and then seek to subvert our community pursue
48:46
many of the same policies as the neocons uh surveil us criminalize us limit our
48:51
ability to to say that we're all pro this group or pro that group that we're all terrorists and
48:57
you know that we etc are funded by some foreign government these are Democrats that are doing it
49:02
right so they're certainly not more principled and certainly not more moral um and I'm not I don't
49:08
want to be um misunderstood here i'm not a person there are some Muslims who say "Well our natural
49:14
allies are on the right or they're more I don't necessarily believe in that sort of bifurcated
49:20
thinking and I'm just looking at opportunities i believe that both sides need to be pushed in ways
49:27
that are advantageous to the Muslim community and it's a detriment to our community to look at one side and not the other." Yeah that it used to be that if you were going to even think about um you
49:39
know dealing with or talking with or reaching out to someone on the right that you were like persona nrata or someone that is beyond the pale now we need Muslims on Candace Owens we need a
49:50
decent Muslim to go on Candace Owens's show or Tucker Carlson's show and represent Islam candace
49:57
has not had a decent Muslim interlocutor and she has proven herself to be a somewhat thoughtful and
50:03
critical person certainly a person with a moral streak to her that's willing to change over time you know but I would say even you know your initial comment that that Tucker Carlson
50:12
seems further than most he's not matt Walsh and Candace Owens and people are going to say in the comments "Oh my gosh Tucker Carlson denies the Bosnian genocide and and Matt Walsh says this
50:21
but he hates Islam." Yeah okay granted but we're focusing on one particular issue here and it is
50:28
a structural issue and it is an issue that is an existential threat because you don't you
50:33
have to address the entire influence of the Israeli lobby and the Israeli influence on
50:38
American politics the hijacking of our academic institutions and our legal and our political
50:43
institutions in order to serve a foreign nation which criminalizes even basic Islamic tenants here
50:50
right that this is something that is of particular acute um significance and threat to us the fact
50:57
that Matt Walsh will go on Tucker Carlson and say that Israel doesn't even really exist right now
51:02
that any nation that is propped up by the United States is not a real nation the fact that Candace Owens says that you know that she will not bend to evil and she will not bend to the Israeli
51:12
lobby and that you know there the the level of critique we could not imagine this we could not
51:19
imagine five years ago or even three years ago that people would be seriously debating whether
51:26
Israel should have happened or not so what why did you say earlier on that our natural home because it from more of what you say there I mean you know that the Democrats are hypocritical and and they
51:38
uh they treat us with you know with disdain culturally and ideologically and they think
51:43
of the Muslim community in a very negative way so what why can't we then you know see our political
51:49
and natural political home on the right because I well there's several things so the right in the United States is contaminated with a lot of things that Islam is fundamentally
51:57
against it's contaminated with racism it's contaminated with white supremacy uh it's contaminated with a uh a capitalistic mythology that we don't entirely subscribe to
52:08
uh very much at all and uh a nivism you know that is against our ethos and we could go down
52:14
you know there's an anti-immigrant sentiment and lots of things that we could talk about but more important than that maybe even like primary before all of those considerations is that
52:23
I reject the idea that we have to hitch our wagon to one or the other in the first place
52:29
i don't think that's smart politics right um when it comes to how we are engaging we're not looking for the people who are most similar to us
52:38
yeah uh in order to ride on their coattails to get what we want we're actually just treating
52:44
things on a case-by case basis what are the opportunities of the moment right now for example the First Amendment is undergoing a reinterpretation in the US legal system the
52:53
First Amendment has a couple clauses to it one of the clauses is the the um the called
53:00
the establishment clause which is that there is not going to be an established church yeah okay so it limits the government support for any religion okay in a structural way there's
53:11
also the free practice clause which is that um everybody has the right to practice their
53:18
religion fully without state interference yeah and there are points at which these two clauses come into tension and historically up until recently
53:26
the establishment clause has had priority over the free exercise clause that you could not say
53:32
that well this is the free exercise of my religion if it violated the establishment clause it doesn't matter if it's part of your free exercise it has to bow to secularism we're
53:41
starting to see a shift we're starting to see a shift towards the free exercise clause someone could say "Oh my gosh but this is the far right this is the Christian nationalist this
53:50
is whatever they're not our friends they're not our enemies they they don't like Islam all of that might be true but they might be opening a door that creates a very important
53:59
opportunity for us that if we are able to for example I'll give you a very concrete example
54:05
if we are able to argue in a court of law that uh BDS boycotting the the occupation of Palestine is
54:15
a normative Islamic it's a wajip it is a an obligation that just like an obligation to
54:21
wear hijab just like an obligation to pray five times a day boycotting Israel is a unambiguous
54:28
Muslim Islamic duty if the court shifts to free exercise clause that has to become recognized
54:36
all of a sudden all the antiBBDS legislation becomes unconstitutional this is a possibility
54:42
a very real scenario that could play out so that's my whole thing about I don't like to think of politics as who are we more like and who do we need to who's our natural I don't
54:51
believe in natural allies i see opportunities there's opportunities and there are uh windows
54:58
of opportunity that have to be exploited in order to push here push there there's going to be some things that are possible under certain administrations that are not possible under other
55:06
under administrations you have a different set of problems a different set of opportunities but we have to have more nuance in identifying those opportunities and figuring out how to move
The US Constitution
55:15
um how valuable is the constitution for the Muslim community i mean until now every time I've I've
55:21
spoken to US Muslims they tend to talk a lot about how the constitution is the real protector
55:27
for the Muslim community whereas in Europe where we have very flimsy or no constitutions you know
55:32
we have arbitrary politicized uh legal systems sometimes you know we've seen that in France for
55:39
example you know the the hijab is banned uh in in public in schools uh but the same level of
55:47
um of uh of challenge to the Muslim community uh when it comes to our religious practice is not
55:53
afforded to you know the other communities who get away with far more symbolic gestures when it comes
55:59
to their religious practice now in the US uh we've always believed and US Muslims have always told me
56:05
that the constitution is is um is blind you know it accepts all communities equally but of course
56:12
you know the arrest of Mahmud Khalil is an example of the sort of arbitrary politicized use of of the
56:19
state and uh I know across the country you've had Sharia banned in Texas and you've got BDS
56:25
you know to even call for uh BDS now will become illegal in some states and So and and these are
56:31
the this is the right that's that's calling for it so you know is the constitution really there
56:37
to protect or like any other western state the constitution could be used you know as a uh in an
56:44
arbitrary way when it comes to Muslims i mean it the constitution is made to be a plastic document
56:51
and that was plastic by plastic I mean it it is yet to be shaped that it was meant to be breathed into life and shaped in the moment and this is actually even the
56:59
intent of the founders the founders realized that they weren't going to be able to create an oified uh legal structure that they created certain mechanisms of change and interpretation
57:08
that would have to be figured out later and could be renewed um from time to time so that presents
57:14
a schizophrenic reality that you have to again what we talked about earlier as the the duty to
57:21
have a highly alert and involved practice of politics because if you completely don't play
57:29
the game that means that your enemies are the only ones left playing the game and they are going to
57:34
work very hard to interpret the constitution and enshrine an interpretation of the constitution that's going to make your life impossible right so the the constitution could be
57:43
interpreted in a way that completely uh eliminates the ability to live as a Muslim as a practicing
57:50
devout Muslim in the United States um and in order for that to not happen it takes activism it takes
57:58
you know political engagement it takes strategy it takes this type of involvement and thinking um and these types of shifts that we're talking about in how the first amendment is
58:06
uh is interpreted and applied in how different clauses of different amendments are take priority
58:12
over one of the all of these things are in play so this is part of any community strategy and
58:19
every community you know the funny thing is that Israelis and the Israeli lobby it
58:24
really is just about they uh they project right every accusation as a confession you know the the takeover that they accuse Muslims in America of wanting to commit
58:34
is something that they've already succeeded in and um what they really don't want is they don't
58:39
want anyone playing their game they don't want any competition in that space but if the Heritage
58:45
Foundation can come up with a project 2025 and you better be sure that Apac has a project 2025 and
58:51
every other interest group has a project 2025 the only people without a project 2025 are the Muslims
58:58
so we have to go through these exercises and it's part of our political maturity to be able to understand that yes nothing is set in stone here you have a certain you know gelatin inshallah
59:10
halal gelatin structure right that's very very flimsy it can be shaped in a multitude of ways you
59:16
have to participate in the shaping of this system in a way that is beneficial to your community if
59:21
you don't it will be shaped without your input and it could be it could be shaped in a way that
59:26
will make that will be an existential threat to your community i've got one last question for you I am imam Tom and that's really I want to pivot away from the sort of political conversation to
Mosques in the US
59:36
uh the community i mean I've I've now interacted uh with a number of community groups here in New
59:42
York and I've I've just found it marvelous as to how uh the mosque is at the center of the Muslim
59:49
community and and so many services are provided by the mosque and young people uh are catered for
59:54
and women are catered for and elderly groups and even non-Muslims there are soup kitchens attached
59:59
to moss i know Shadi Alasi Shak Shadi has a soup kitchen attached to his mosque and there's a lot
1:00:05
going on in the mosque and I I contrast that and again I don't want to generalize but you've been to Britain you know our mosques are very functional we we tend to do the prayer really
1:00:15
well and alhamdulillah people turn up to pray i mean you know the mug pray is like Juma in some in some places so there is a a de a a devotion to uh the religious practices but but the mosque
1:00:27
isn't really the hub if we want to do something for young people we tend to do it outside of the mosque or for women or for for other for you know it tends to be in community centers or other
1:00:37
hired spaces i mean what what lessons I suppose you've been to Britain you've traveled around
1:00:42
uh I'm going to take back some some really good news about the Muslim community in in America i know that's not often said by us Brits uh but but you know your reflections
1:00:54
really on on on how this has happened and how the Muslim community in America have organized
1:01:00
themselves really well around the mosques i think that the the different dynamics are
1:01:05
responsible for the the reactions from the two different places so in the United States I mean
1:01:10
people say we're not a country we're a continent it's extremely large like it's easier it's I
1:01:15
think just as far to fly to London than it is to fly to California um and that means
1:01:22
that our population is extremely diffuse um and it's also not that much right as
1:01:28
a national whole or even in in particular communities we don't make up a critical mass
1:01:33
in most of the places that Muslim population exists in so when you are more spread out
1:01:39
um and there's other factors as well many people have pointed out to class factors and immigration and things of that that's also true to an extent but I think that the the forces that
1:01:52
are pulling you away from Islam are so ubiquitous and aggressive here that it really really forced
1:01:59
Muslims to make their mosques as community centers that um there's an understanding
1:02:05
that Yes in order we don't have that insolarity in our homes or in our neighborhoods mostly and
1:02:13
so the only place to have a center of gravity right uh you can afford to treat the mosque
1:02:19
as just the place of prayer if your center of gravity for keeping people acculturated into the faith is the home or extended relatives or whatever but if you don't have those forces then
1:02:29
you need that center of gravity what's going to be the center of gravity for us it is the mosque right so there became a sense that if we don't want to lose the next generation or the women
1:02:40
that there's a very much an ethos of you have to cater to these segments of the population
1:02:46
um you have to provide programming for them that's targeted for youth and targeted for women and if you want women to attend lectures and educate themselves in Dean you're going to
1:02:56
have to provide child care and you're going to have to take care of their needs right so there's definitely much more of a catering I I in my observation that goes on with the way that
1:03:06
masids try to program and I think that's just because without it in the United States I mean
1:03:11
you know you'll be you know your kids will be doing football or they'll be doing basketball or something else and you won't see the mosque for a long time you know the United States especially
1:03:21
the socially mobile middle class it's very much about filling up your schedule right you have
1:03:30
this extra you have your extracurriculars they're going to go on your resume and etc etc you've got everything and it's very easy for the mosque to get subtracted entirely but to have those programs
1:03:39
that act you I mean even in in Allentown we've got uh martial arts classes in the mosques we've got
1:03:45
uh homeschooling groups meet in the mosques we've got right so that maintains that gravity in the
1:03:52
best way we found out how uh and there's lots of challenges and you know um we're doing the best we
1:03:58
can but I think that that's one of the things that is responsible for that difference alhamdulillah now I think we can learn a lot uh from the way you you guys have organized your masids
1:04:07
here your massid here and it's uh it's really great to see alhamdulillah look I im Tomak I
1:04:13
think it's been a really interesting conversation thank you so much for your time today thank you
1:04:22
please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head over to our website thinkingmuslim.com to sign up to my weekly newsletter