Ep 238. - Has Sufism Become a Tool for Autocrats? with Dr Shadee Elmasry
Modern day autocrats turn to Sufi movements to justify their tyranny. With an emphasis on the personal and the spiritual, there is a tendency towards political quietism –dismissing the cries of Gaza – condoning normalisation and delegitimising struggles for liberation.
Dr Shadee Elmasry, argues that historically, Sufi movements have been at the fore of fighting for justice. Sufism produced illustrious anti-colonialism struggles and courageous warriors. Dr Shadee Elmasry is the scholar in Residence and Director of Education and Community Affairs at the New Brunswick Islamic Center in New Jersey. He is also the founder and head of Safina Society—an institution dedicated to the cause of traditional Islamic education in the West.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
Modern-day autotocrats turn to Sufu movements to justify their tyranny with an emphasis on the personal and the
0:06
spiritual. There is a tendency towards political quietism, dismissing the cries of Gaza, condoning normalization and
0:13
delegitimizing struggles for liberation. To be a Sufi does not necessarily make a
0:18
person into a quietist because the evidence points the exact opposite that they're the ones who brought forth
0:25
probably the biggest thorn in the side of the colonial project. I want to talk about Sufism and how potentially it's
0:32
been politically co-opted. A lot of the authoritarian governments today want the
0:37
Muslim Ummah to be sedated. The fact that they had to corner themselves and only latch on to Sufis is actually a
0:43
proof of Islam because you couldn't do it to the whole religion. I spoke to Dr. Shahi al- Masari in New York. He argues
0:49
that historically Sufi movements have been at the for fighting for justice. Sufism produced illustrious
0:55
antic-colonialism struggles and courageous warriors. In today's world,
1:01
the biggest frustration to me is that the apparatus that you're fighting against is so massive. You are one
1:07
little speck in comparison and you feel that action has become a lot harder and
1:14
so therefore what do we turn to? We turn to relief.
1:19
Dr. Dr. Shi Masalam and welcome to the thinking Muslim.
1:24
Thank you for having me. Well, it's so wonderful to have you with us. Now, today Dr. Shi, I want to talk about a
1:29
subject which I think is quite contentious probably in in the modern world and that is uh the question of
1:36
Sufism and quietism and whether there is a connection uh between um some of the
1:42
quietest movements we see around us the apolitical movements maybe even movements that are co-opted by one
1:49
unsavory government or another and the ideas and concepts surrounding Sufism.
1:55
Yeah. Yeah. So I want to take this and understand what Sufism is from its roots and then inshallah try to sort of
2:01
understand um the u the historical background of Sufis and Sufi movements
2:06
and and whether this correlation is a fair correlation to make today. But I suppose let's start with what Sufiism is
What is Sufism?
2:14
because there'll be so many of our viewers uh many of them non-Muslims even who may have come across the uh ideas of
2:20
Sufism and may just think Sufism is spirituality or or having a a sort of a
2:26
spiritual disposition. Um what is Sufism in your eyes and and do you see it as a
2:31
movement as a methodology or some sort of orientation within Islam? How would
2:38
you how would you define it? Well, first thanks for having me over and nice to have you on this side of the
2:44
the the ocean or the a uh but
2:49
right uh on its off the bat we have to separate between what they call a and a
2:57
that is the essential common thread that defines something right and then aras
3:03
could be an common theme but is not essential. Sure. To give an example, uh,
3:11
if we say a Muslim in London, the rasm, the common conception would be probably
3:18
an ethnic background person, right? Most likely. But that doesn't ne that's not
3:24
necessarily the case. There's plenty of white Muslims, British Muslims. So there's only one common thread that goes
3:32
across the concept of Sufism and Taw which is that it is the pursuit of
3:38
divine love through and zood
3:45
being remembrance of Allah very broadly um termed it doesn't have to be of a
3:51
bead of use of beads and the zahood is disentanglement from distraction s in
3:57
your heart. So again, that's very broad because it may not necessarily be the zood of the hands. Uh it may not
4:04
necessarily be physically is he not a zah but he physically had so
4:11
much wealth and power around him he couldn't avoid it his whole life. That's the common thread. There is no uh common
4:20
thread across Sufis nor political stance nor personal
4:27
temperament. He goes over 200 ways to look at this in
4:32
definitions and he said it's the sincere
4:38
directedness towards God that it is a very individual
4:43
subject and I think most importantly I don't have an interest in defending a
4:50
term or a group because also terms words shift and they migrate and they may be
4:55
good in one era and they may symbolize symb era. What we care about is the mudm or
5:02
the content and taw at its best it symbolizes the greatest personal goal
5:10
that a person can have which is the pursuit of love of Allah and Allah
5:16
speaks about love in the Quran between him and his and his creation the human
5:21
being specifically in many places doesn't even we can't even even have to go into it here but also the hadithi
5:30
speaks about the highest position an individual can have with Allah in the
5:35
famous hadith of called that hadith of and can be also called
5:41
about worshiping Allah privately personally individually until you reach a level that Allah says he loves you
5:49
before that he loves the obligatory act the obligatory act is the focus of
5:54
Allah's love after doing many superogatory acts then the person becomes the recipient of divine love.
6:01
Before that, he's just the recipient of divine mercy and guidance
6:06
but not love. So to attain that is the highest goal of every individual Muslim.
6:13
And this is something no two Muslims would ever disagree on. And the terms
6:18
and words are just indicators to that. If we don't like a word, we can all swap it. As they say famously,
6:26
if a word bothers you because of a certain connotation, then it's not we're not here to defend a
6:33
word that is not directly from the Quran. Humans made up this word, right? The the early Muslims made up this word
6:40
to symbolize these people. Would you say that someone could could achieve those
6:45
ends, be close to Allah subhanaa tala, have a love for Allah and for Allah to love him without necessarily about that
6:52
person subscribing to the me the modern methodologies of Sufism for example
6:59
there there are two ways we could go about the methodologies there one way is that which is clearly
7:07
mashua or clearly dictated in the sharia and in the sunnah as the forget the
7:14
obligations we're already past that that that's a given obligations and prohibitions in that famous hadith of is
7:21
a given but he continues
7:26
he continues to draw near to me with extra good deeds and the has room there
7:32
are can be uh in come in different forms
7:38
right so it could come in the form of prayer Night prayer could come in the form of fasting could come in form of
7:43
recitation of Quran. If you open up the door of recitation, well, how do you recite it, right? There there's even
7:50
discussion about the between the scholars on that. So, there's so much room
7:55
uh for some judgment calls, matters of nafida that have a judgment call in it
8:00
that people can differ on and then there are things that there's no difference upon. Today I want to talk about um
Spirituality
8:07
Sufism and and how potentially it's been politically co-opted. But I'm fascinated in in just this base conversation about
8:14
about what Sufism is and and what it isn't. um uh often especially amongst
8:20
non-Muslims uh who uh who develop this sort of trend to become closer to the
8:27
spirit or spirituality. They would often sort of hold on to Sufism as a as a
8:33
means by which they can become closer to the spiritual to the divine. The conversation we just had implies that
8:40
there is a a deep interconnection between loving Allah subhana tala and for Allah to love you and the pursuit of
8:47
following the Sharia uh by the obligations and the
8:52
uh act uh actions. Um how important is a Sharia to this sort of schema of of
8:59
gaining closeness to Allahh? Well, the the Sufism became popular in the West in
9:04
the 60s and 70s, right? Through Americans and British people who had
9:12
been pre-influenced by Christianity and its monasticism
9:18
by their delving into Buddhism and Hinduism. So when they came upon that
9:24
strand in Islam, I think they superimposed that right on
9:29
top of it. Okay. And that's why the initial introduction of Sufism into the
9:36
West, it was a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian slanted spirituality
9:42
that you actually don't necessarily find in Islam. Historically, you don't find
9:47
it in Islam. Over 3,000 years ago, Musa Ali and his people stood trapped,
Donate to Baitulmaal
9:54
oppressed, afraid, with nowhere to run. But then Allah split the sea. It wasn't
10:01
just water that moved. It was fear, suffering, and despair, giving way to
10:07
freedom, dignity, and a new beginning. Today, countless families face their own
10:13
impossible seas. Conflict, hunger, displacement. They
10:18
wait for a way out, for a path forward. And just like then a way can open now.
10:25
With your charity, with your compassion, you can be the reason hope is born again.
10:32
On this day of Ashura, honor the spirit of hope. Give today.
10:39
Turn your compassion into hope. Spelled that out for me. Like, you know,
Monasticism
10:44
we have lots of non-Muslim viewers. Yeah. Yeah, who may be surprised to hear that uh that you know there is a you
10:50
know Islam is not sort of monastic type of faith like explain practically how
10:56
that is. So yes, tass and the Sufi way seeks to move away from distractions
11:03
from Allah, but there's a limit to those to that, right? So we don't hold monasticism
11:09
to be favorable. If you happen not to be married, that's fine. But to believe in
11:14
monasticism, you're actually in doing an innovation. You're believing something is better than what the prophet did,
11:21
right? um or for example vows of poverty.
11:28
So could that possibly be someone's expression? Yes, it could be. But it is not intentionally elevated. You'll not
11:34
find anywhere in the Sharia that the prophet peace be upon him called or
11:39
recommended or any of the major Sufi Shuk recommended you to uh disavow all
11:46
your wealth. For example, for example, priests, they have no wealth. Everything they own is the church. Their shirt is
11:53
the church is the key. The key the car is the church. I don't even know if they have bank accounts, right? So no
11:59
husband, no wife, no wealth and no engagement in anything. It is not our
12:05
our way. And anyone who you were to interact very just briefly look at
12:12
history, you'll find that's not the case. And that's what I mean by they they seem to have a a filter
12:19
then maybe that's what they were looking for. Once you have a filter that's what you start looking for. But if you go
12:25
back in the history as I said there is no common thread in the word or phrase
12:31
of taw for the people who attribute themselves to this except for the
12:36
concept of seeking the love of Allah through and you could say zud first and second.
12:45
There is no to and there there is I will tell you a
12:51
slant that the sufi will have. They will have a slant in but their
12:59
there is no called the of the Sufis for example.
13:04
There's just a slant which I'll bring up later. Yeah. Uh okay. So Sufis can be you know Hanfi or Shafi or Maliki you
Sufism in shariah
13:11
know this is not a school of thought it's a way of of living and thinking. In today's world it's a that Sufis for
13:19
example are Asharis. Okay. But historically this is not there is no
13:25
such limit. In fact the greatest of Sufia are two
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one in his his his works and the other
13:38
in his heritage his and one came before the other. The first
13:45
is the greatest author in taw. He's a mutim. He's a calam scholar in Akira and
13:51
we all know that is Abuhammed Razali. Yes. The after he passed away
13:58
in Iraq came the greatest uh order founder of an order and he didn't even
14:04
found it himself. He was just naturally being himself as a sheh and later on his followers made it in order and that is
14:11
the biggest in the world which is and he's
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asked about and he told them his disciple it doesn't benefit you in your grave.
14:28
So they say how could uh we love we love him we love Gazi how can we bring the
14:34
two together he's saying half of Gazadi's work in Kam was useless he said yeah because Gazadi had already cleaned
14:40
up shop in Baghdad and destroyed all these bot so at the time there was no
14:47
need for this right so he's speak he was correct in what he did and he was correct in what he did because their context differed
14:57
I'll give you harawi
15:03
translated by our very own Dr. Hatim Haj from the great state of New Jersey here. Yes. And she harawi
15:10
he was in. And we have here
15:17
Ahmedi
15:24
translated by our very own John Starling from the great state of New Jersey. And
15:30
then we have here from the scholars or the who is
15:38
which means he does his writing was like the hadith scholars and
15:45
okay who has a chapter in his makid on the place of taw
15:52
or the parameters of taw uh in his book and mkasid.
15:59
And we have from the Sufia who were who had no stance in
16:04
such as no stance at all. He didn't expose
16:10
himself to the subject and we had those Sufya who had their own stance in aid neither nor Kami
16:20
who brought his own uh view to things.
16:25
And then you have Sufia regarding juristprudence.
16:32
Regarding juristp prudence you had those who were not they were not jurists like
16:40
you don't see ever speaking as a jurist. Then you have those who were jurists such as Ahmed
16:47
who followed a Then you f then you have the jurist who was a his on his own
16:54
he did not follow anyone he could have formed one of the four mhabs
17:00
could have been his you have Sufis who preached and Sufis who didn't preach for
17:05
example from the early ones he didn't preach but another one was Junic
17:12
and he was an imam So you had those who were completely solitary too Ibrahim
17:19
contrast with Juned who was the leader of his people
17:25
he's called and he's the one who monitored all of them to make sure that they're following the spiritual path
17:31
properly and you had those who founded
17:36
spiritual paths and those who didn't for example Abul Hassani
17:42
he founded He has a just like someone who founds a med.
17:47
Uh and you had those who did not. Neither they followed one nor did they found one.
17:54
You can't find which he was part of. He was no part of any nor did he found a you cannot look
18:01
around and say where's a so I could follow it. He has his books and that's it. And then you have those who f
18:07
followed but didn't found one such as Zar. So all of this is I'm trying to present
18:14
that there is no one there's there's only one common thread and it is not
18:20
limited to any medthology or that's I think that's really clear and
Sufism and quietism
18:26
that's that's a fascinating way into understanding Sufism. So we're um
18:32
embarking on this conversation about Sufism and why it sometimes is
18:38
synonymous with this quietism. Uh historically this is before the modern
18:43
period where people imprinted their own sort of understanding of of uh what it
18:49
means to be spiritual onto Islam and onto Sufism. Historically um can we say
18:54
that Sufis were more inclined towards being quietest? So what I mean by quiet
19:00
is I suppose is if they saw a an error in their society or within their elites
19:06
uh they were inclined to to leave that for the sake of closeness to god. Is
19:12
there a you know a um a history there a pedigree there of of sufism and
19:17
quietism? The original Sufis, they came in a time where they viewed
19:23
that the world and the ummah was in fact taken care of. That there was no need
19:30
for them to try to become judges, governors.
19:35
But that does not mean they didn't contribute, right? They were people who
19:41
who for one circumstance or another out of a conviction or just circumstance
19:47
lived tended to live more alone and away from the people and that is because they
19:53
felt the people the society had become corrupted namely not corrupted with
19:59
sinfulness only but excess it was excessive things were getting excessive.
20:05
So if you read in the book the uh epistle of El Kushi. It's a PDF
20:12
online you can get it and you read the he gives you the biographies
20:18
almost across the board they these are people who felt the society's become so materialistic
20:24
and yes whatever problems there are there are people handling it and we feel that we be safer in our religion if
20:33
we're to live alone and so some of them never settle in their whole life they
20:41
never settle for their entire lives and if they're become known they leave. They don't want
20:47
fame. They don't want attachments. So that is the origin of it. But it is not
20:53
the rule but it's the origin. Now some of them did that while signing up for
20:59
the army such as Karnney. Why is he special? Because he's
21:07
he's from the second generation. never met the prophet sallallaihi wasallam but by means of revelation the prophet knew
21:13
about him and he praised him so we know that he's in the middle category between
21:20
a regular person and a companion and Allah put that there for a wisdom
21:26
because he's not a regular person because the prophet praised him therefore the prophet has checked off on
21:32
him what he's doing is good but why Allah did not make him a companion because that's not the sunnah
21:38
It's an exception. If your circumstance allows for this, then you could live like but you don't try to live like
21:46
that's the difference. He fought in battles. So we don't have a concept of quietism
21:52
to say that um I'm going to leave off society and let it go to hell if it
21:58
wants to go to hell and let it be good if it wants to be good. That's not allowed. But we can say, "I'm not gonna
22:05
get in. I'm not gonna put my nose into things that are not my business. If it
22:11
comes to me, I'll deal with it. If the ruler calls for it, I'll I'll accept the
22:16
call." So that's I would say a middle category between someone who's sticking
22:21
his nose in society and someone washing his hands clean from society. Okay.
Authoritarianism and pacification
22:27
That's I think that's that's interesting. So um when we think about
22:32
um a lot of the authoritarian let's say governments today or governments that um
22:39
want the Muslim Ummah to be sedated and would like to offer to the Muslim um a
22:46
very pacifist type of Islam. And I don't mean an Islam which is you the opposite of that an Islam which is violent but I
22:52
just mean an Islam that doesn't care and is neutral about the the big issues of our time. Gaza or wherever it may be
23:00
often um uh I I think it's fair to say that they do latch on to Sufism as an as
23:08
an idea corrupted or not but or subverted or not but Sufism as an idea
23:13
uh as a way to sort of pacify uh the masses and say look that's your your
23:18
business and our business is different and you know we're we're in the the business of statecraftraft and
23:24
cunningness and politics. uh but if you want to be good Muslims uh then you
23:31
should pursue this spiritual path. Um you know we do see that yeah today I mean how would you explain uh how
23:38
quickly they they latch on to Sufism as a way to as a way to sort of pacify
23:44
people. Well I think that's a strength to Islam because
23:49
when they wanted to do that to Christianity they did it to the whole religion. But they can't do it to the
23:54
whole religion of Islam because it's that crystal clear. But the maximum they could do it to was to one personalized
24:01
strand within Islam. So that's actually the fact that they had to corner themselves and only latch on to Sufis
24:07
for that is actually a proof of Islam because you couldn't do it to the whole religion because the whole religion is
24:12
that clear and that pacifism. Yes, it's possible and it is possible for I mean
24:21
Sufis are humans, right? So they could be the corrupt ones amongst them. There could be misguided ones and there have
24:27
been collaborators in every colonized nation. There have to be collaborators. The collaborators are going to come from
24:34
the people, right? Whoever the leaders of the people are that are soft-minded, whether they're Sufis or not. I mean,
24:40
today you could probably have collaborators with governments who are not Sufis. That's because there there
24:46
are no Sufis to be had that have any power. So there's almost no point. But in certain countries at least.
24:53
But historically this isn't the case. Historically the the eyeire of the colonizers was against the Sufis because
25:00
they're the ones if I can share you with this list that they're the ones who
25:06
brought forth probably the biggest thorn in the side of the colonial project. And
25:12
the reason is that at that point in Islamic society to have a a Sufi
25:19
teaching this was just a default right this is it was a default setting across
25:26
the Islamic world maybe due to whatever factors but it was a default setting
25:32
that you were involved in some way in some self- purification teaching or sils as they call it a a
25:38
chain connected chain. So let's take an example. Who are the people who fought
25:44
in the 1800s in Morocco against the Portuguese?
25:49
They were the and it was a group called the the
25:56
and this was a class of society. They were the political class and they were shar
26:01
and they were right by this just their description. Um that was their tar in
26:07
187 in the 1800s shortly thereafter. Local
26:12
paganism local pagans in the Nigeria area what
26:18
the the Arabs call it Sudan. The whole area they call it Sudan. uh the houseand
26:24
strip led by a manodio who was a kadi and he was a hassan from B and he was
26:31
also descended from there's two noble descents in North
26:37
Africa which is to be descended from the original uh sahabi who came that was
26:44
and then of course to be descendant from Hassan Ibn Ali and he was descendant of both he is one of the most amazing ones
26:51
maybe we could zoom in on him later. In 1825, Abdel Jabari was await and a
26:58
historian and we get most of our history of the French entering upon Egypt from Al Jabari. He was a Kalwati and he
27:07
ali in 1831. Ahmed Bili in Punjab, he fought
27:14
the Sikhs and he was in Nakabundi and he died in 1831. In the 1830s, uh,
27:21
Prince, uh, Diponogoro was a kadi in Java in Indonesia and he fought the
27:28
Dutch. In the 1860s, there was a huge movement to fight back the British by Sharah and
27:37
his entire philosophy was called the Fari movement, which is basically
27:42
reviving the like you not we're not pious anymore. And he had no at all. was
27:48
just Sufi inspired. Uh in 1857 of course uh one of the
27:55
biggest Naksha Bundi scholars Flhak estab announced that this was a jihad against the British. Uh in 1860s and 70s
28:04
and and before that in the Cauus mountains the enemy were the Russians
28:10
and the leader against them was Imam Sheabendi. was as Fazl Hak was in China fighting
28:19
the king dynasty was Mahalong and he was a nakshabandhi who started a jihad we're
28:26
talking physical jihads we're not talking about jihad of the nfs in 1883 in Algeria of course the
28:33
well-known Abd fought the French and he was a khadi in 1885 in Sudan uh was the end marked
28:41
the end of the mahi movement Right. And he was a kalwatiwatih
28:51
who fought the British in Sudan in the famous battle of Omador man which he led
28:57
uh shortly thereafter that simultaneously really is Omar Mkhtar.
29:03
Omar Mkhtar was a senusi and the senusi are I believe a branch of the kadi if I'm not mistaken. The senusia fought the
29:10
Italians. in 1935, one of the first people to fight the British mandate and to to fight the newly coming Zionists.
29:18
Um, why do they call it the Kasam Brigade? Because of
29:23
who was an Azari trained scholar in the 1980s who did most of the heavy
29:30
lifting against the Soviets? The local people who were Nakshabendis and Kadis and their shi were all Nakshai Hanfi
29:39
trained scholars. So you see here that uh to be a Sufi does not is not going to
29:45
necess necessarily make a person into a quietest because the evidence points the
29:50
exact opposite. You are going to be what you are based on your knowledge your tawa right and whatever's your imams are
30:00
influencing you at that time because uh again there is no common thread across Sufism that would
30:08
cause a person to be a quietist. In fact, I would think it's the opposite. Yeah, expand on that. So, that's really
Asceticism and resistance
30:13
interesting because these are this illustrious sort of uh anticolonialist
30:19
um individuals, these she's fighters are all Sufis. Is there something within
30:25
Sufism are reserved out there drawing upon uh to fight the imperatives? Yeah.
30:30
Well, to be total to to look at it completely fairly, these sh these men,
30:36
these warriors, they did not go into battle
30:41
because the their book of Sufism said so. They went into battle because the
30:46
Sharia said so, right? Sufism is supposed to give life to the Sharia. Sure. Right. Just to make it totally
30:53
clear, this is they happen to be Sufis, right? But you don't have this many
30:58
people except that Sufism clearly does give life to the Sharia. And the way it
31:04
gives life to the Sharia is by making us love what comes after death.
31:11
Uh famous story of Ibraim mentioned in
31:17
the angel of death comes to him to take his life. He looks to the heavens and he
31:22
says, "Oh Allah, does a khal take the life of another khal." Then the angel of
31:28
death goes away and then he comes back and he says a message from your he says does not ah want to meet his.
31:35
So when sufism teaches these things that it's against trying to prolong this
31:42
worldly life, it's seeks to put you out of the comforts of this worldly life.
31:48
That's what allows you to give life to the Sharia and to go into it without hesitation. That's fantastic. Right. So
31:56
there is this strong connection of Allah subhana wa ta'ala and a strong connection with the afterlife that makes
32:03
one inclined towards returning to Allah his beloved and and and that um surely
32:10
should be a a strength for someone who's fighting imperialism and fighting and resisting. And and by the way, because
32:17
to be fair about this, you can have the same teaching without ever picking up a book that said Sufism on it. This is
32:24
just hadiths. This is just understanding. So what Sufism does is it tries to extrapolate the hadith that
32:31
will make you turn away from the comforts of this world and towards the love of Allah through
32:38
remembrance and devotion. That is what the subject's all about. Just like the
32:43
subject of in Islam subject of Islam is the rules. So the
32:49
will extract what they call
32:55
those he will look at the Quran looking for rulings contracts how to live how to marry how
33:02
to pray etc. In theology, Islam, Eman,
33:07
Eman is theology. The theology is looking for verses and hadiths that are
33:14
telling us what to believe. And is looking at the verses and hadith that
33:20
tell us how to be excellent. And excellent here means is
33:28
leave off this world. Allah will love you. So again, it's these two pillars. You're seeking you're seeking divine
33:34
love through zud and throughikur right and so does it have a positive
33:41
impact clearly it has a positive impact but and we also have to say that this
33:46
positive impact it could be uh it it is gleaned it's the same material whether
33:53
you call it sufism or not let's say I'm going to come up in a time where the sufis are all traitors and I hate them I
33:59
physically hate them and there are so many people who physically They will get nauseous at the notion of Sufis because
34:05
the where they grew up these are the traitors that's an accident in history
34:11
in their peace li sliver of history and that could be in Dagistan that could be
34:16
in Cairo that could what they were traders these people are traders they're not doing dawa they're not teaching
34:21
Quran they're not teaching Taj I don't know what they're doing and people will testify to that they'll tell you that
34:27
that's their view of it so in that case they physically get nauseous when they hear the
34:32
It doesn't make a difference. Cross out the word, right? When you seek to draw
34:38
near to Allah, it's the same verses and hadiths, right? It ends up being That's why I said earlier, it's never worth it
34:44
to argue for a word. It's the mudmoon, right? It's the content that matters.
Sufi anti-colonial warriors
34:50
Um, Shik Shadi, you've listed a number of uh these illustrious uh individuals
34:56
who fought colonialism, fought imperialism. um and um they belong to in some shape
35:03
or form to this sort of this broad spectrum of understanding that we call
35:08
Sufism. I I sort of feel uh a little um uh dissatisfied in a way to move on
35:14
unless we we delve into a little bit more of of their lives. I mean can you tell us a little bit more about uh some
35:20
of these individuals? I don't know Fodio or Omar Mhtab the line of the desert or
35:26
you know Omand Fodio is one of my favorites. Um Omand Fodio he came at a
35:32
time uh where the houseand had a lot of conflict and the the vying
35:39
for power caused people caused many Muslims to make alliances with pagans
35:45
and over time to soften to pagan ways. And so the the the scene became very
35:53
sloppy and he had a sheh named Jirel. She gi his number one inspiration. And
35:59
he said, "We need a whole new revival. We need we need to do this whole thing
36:04
from scratch." At that time these were Madakis and Ashar Kadis. That was the
36:11
curriculum at I'm right in saying this is modernday Nigeria. Yeah. We're talking here
36:16
died in 1817. So we're talking late 1700s into the 1800s and mid700s.
36:24
So he trains this student. He trains a man
36:30
and a man becomes himself but he becomes an amazing D and he starts teaching and
36:37
he goes and he gives speeches. But his method of teaching was that a he had reached really the highest levels of
36:42
scholarship. So he could teach a scholar from scratch and produce a scholar. But he also had wisdom and he used to say
36:50
that the the book of the common man is the song. So he used to write the
36:56
teaching in the native house of language and he used to give it his own melodies
37:02
and he used to do it in such a simple way that they could memorize these you know a couple lines and just sing it as
37:09
a song. And he started having gatherings for the common people that involved
37:16
recitation of Quran and they could and singing these songs and these songs would get stuck in people's heads and as
37:22
they say that people in the marketplace will be singing songs that had an right
37:27
because that's the how the common person learns. So he was able to tap into the
37:33
elite and the common and this continued to spread to the point that he was once invited to one of
37:39
the king's palaces and he went and he invited him to Islam and gave him some
37:45
talk etc. and he left and the king loved him so everything was good and people
37:51
started to flock to him. that king died and his son came in and immediately had
37:57
called for the meeting he took a pistol out tried to shoot him so but it backfired and he he burnt himself so the
38:04
people there took it as like this is the future in the future he's going to destroy you just like Moses almost how
38:10
the young young Musa took the the crown right off his head put on his head when
38:16
Musa was a baby so the people there took it as an is there's going to be conflict here obviously there's going to be
38:22
conflict he just tried to suit you, but you're going to win the conflict. And so, uh, that initiated a period of
38:28
hijra. He had to take his people. And back in the day, there weren't clear lines of where people lived. You could
38:34
just move to an empty patch of desert. So, he's he's his group is growing and
38:40
it's called the Jama. That's what they call his group. And everyone there to be a leader, you have to learn. You cannot
38:47
be a leader without knowing and so he was very strict on the the side of
38:54
knowledge. He was not just it wasn't just that he was seeking a general
38:59
direction towards Islam. No, you needed to know your stuff. And he had some manuals that he wanted everyone in the
39:06
Jamaat to know. And he was actually criticized by these um weward
39:12
semi-Muslim even pagans because at that time they didn't let the women leave.
39:17
But he was like no the women got to study and he would bring him out to the massagid to study right and that was a
39:23
form of that was one way they said he's an immoral man because he's bringing the women out to study and to the mass. But
39:30
the next phase really resembles
39:46
wanted to go out and fight the next battle. They lost. So they said that's our
39:52
his life resembles the prophet so much you can imagine. Then his enemies
39:57
weakened. He got stronger. He established a kilfa
40:02
and they called it the Sakoto caliphate. Sakoto is still a city now. That's one of the greatest cities of Islam in
40:09
Nigeria. Now, interestingly though, he didn't himself do the ruling. He had his
40:15
brother and his son ruled east and west and he was in the masid ensuring that
40:20
the spirit the purpose of this was continuing which was
40:29
he emphasized that you have to have knowledge but you also have to be worshipful
40:34
and I remember someone saying in the Afghan war that one of the things that the Afghans
40:40
would say regarding the Russians that we we we have victory by
40:45
the the more I we do devotion to Allah that we do the more miracles occur and
40:52
the Afghan war it's all miracles the these are people who with flip-flops and
40:57
surfaceto-air missiles the guy has never picked up anything like this before in his life they're trying they're
41:02
literally reading the manual as they try to use it and before they even figure
41:07
out how to how to you know it's like a lighting a quick like the old cartoon
41:14
bombs. Before they even figure it out, the Russians are fleeing. I mean, so many stories like that. So, Amanda Fodio
41:21
believed in the same thing. It's by that you get Allah's help. So, he stayed in the masid
41:27
uh proverbally speaking. He went around making sure that the and the was sound
41:33
and that the hearts of the people were alive. and he left his brother and his son to rule and eventually he completely
41:41
resigned all position because of his old age and he he passed away. But he's
41:46
somebody who had great success but not everyone else had great success. Keep in mind all this list shows that
41:54
the fruit of the tree was clean. It was good. Just the fact they resisted. They
42:00
don't have to win. And Hussein resisted where the resistance was appropriate and
42:05
was the best thing to do. People say, "Oh, how could he rebel?" Because he's a much he
42:14
can he give the fat where no, this is not the time to obey the these are not the rulers the prophet said to follow
42:19
and obey. He's a people forget this. And as the uh certain groups say, he's
42:25
killed by the lawful lawfully killed as a rebel. This is like a crazy statement
42:31
to make. But you go to another one such as Imm Shaman was a sadder story.
42:38
He he uh fought a lot and ultimately was just to totally overpowered. Yet Allah
42:44
honored him by having him uh basically even when the
42:49
Russians captured him, they honored him. They put him in a castle. He lived in a
42:55
castle in under house arrest. eventually got permission to make Omra and Hajj and
43:01
he dies in Medina. He's buried in Albak immedi
43:07
uh one of his young people that he met there was Imad
43:15
who met Imam She. You wonder what kind of conversation that was because they
43:21
don't re maybe they don't realize they're two legends that we're going to be talking about later on. He was I abd
43:27
was young. I shed was in his last years and they met at Hajj and Hajj always was
43:34
a place of of of meeting for scholars. Abd fought and he established himself a
43:41
state too. Established himself for a period of time a state. So again it's
43:49
not Sufism to Saul that says go and do this. It's that gives life to the whole
43:58
that's the whole purpose of is to it's not a law unto itself. No, it's
44:04
what gives life to your practice of the law and that person right if he's a
44:10
healthy vessel and he understands the message properly then
44:15
it gives life to the sh and he does the right thing and where the vessel is
44:21
unclean if tassau doesn't clean it out then nothing will because the whole purpose
44:26
of tasaw is to cleanse this vessel out so if that
44:32
if you're corrupt despite these teachings then who knows then what's going to fix that person. I mean from
Spirituality and activism
44:39
what you've described there it's it's there's also a an environment a climate
44:47
where these amazing personalities are being produced and that climate is you know a society a group of a community
44:54
that loves Allah subhanaa tala and wants Allah subhanaa tala's blessing and baraka in everything they do. Um, can I
45:01
fast forward to today because you know Gaza has inspired subhan Allah many young people in particular to get
45:08
involved sometimes for the first time in in activism uh and to be politically
45:14
more motivated um you know whether that's um you know boycotting or demonstrations or protests
45:22
or uh other forms of actions and activities. How important is this spiritual side
45:29
uh to completing that that activism? This spirituality is what purifies your
45:35
intent and it strengthens your motivation and it cuts and breaks the
45:43
chains of loving this world that causes a people not to take action. And today's
45:50
world is a bit different. People don't want to hear talk. I mean talk is for us
45:56
teachings are important. Religious teachings are important but it's actions is what matters. And ultimately what I
46:05
hate is the way that we're really trapped by modern societies. The realm
46:11
of action is has it becomes is shrinking and shrinking and shrinking uh in our
46:17
world. People are surveiled. People are worried for their jobs. people, the apparatus that you're fighting against
46:24
is so massive, how are you actually going to physically fight? That's even more important than surveillance than
46:29
anything else. Like, okay, what are you going to do? Back in the old days, if you looked at what the greats did, he
46:35
took a bunch of people, let's go live on our own, build up our ranks, build up
46:40
our morale. Uh, the Ottomans started that way. He took a group of people, said, "Let's live on our own." And you
46:47
could do that in the past. Find a patch of land. uh in today's world the biggest
46:53
frustration to me is that the apparatus that you're fighting against is so massive. You are one little speck in
47:00
comparison and you feel that action has become a lot harder. And so therefore
47:06
what do we turn to? We turn to relief. We can give relief at least or at least
47:11
we could speak try to speak the truth if you can. But that's one of the
47:16
frustrating things to me because action is really what matters and words they're easy
47:23
and sometimes they're they're not as if if we were in Egypt, if we were in the Emirates, if we were in Saudi, the first
47:30
thing someone would say is we got to know the topic you're going to talk about cuz we got families, we got jobs, we got a
47:37
life that's going to be taken away. Some of these people are so vicious, they don't come after you, they'll come after your family, right? So they know how to
47:45
silence people. That's true. But but but you know how different is that from the
47:51
past from the 18th 19th century from from the period that you're talking about where these people you know were
47:58
battling imperialists who used twisted means sometimes you who use these
48:03
indirect means to uh uh to harm them and their families. Mhm. I I suppose your
48:08
argument here your your point is that if one is has a strong intimate connection with Allah subhana wa tala one then is
48:16
able to battle some of these inhibitions within one's soul that prevents them
48:21
from being active and from uh conducting the right behaviors. So so in a sense I
48:27
think you you know uh the need to be uh uh close to Allah subhana wa ta'ala is
48:33
paramount today in in anyone who's engaged in activism. I mean, I I think that's probably your your point, right?
48:39
That's the point because there's going to be so many ups and downs. Yeah. There's going to be so many failures.
48:45
There's going to be so many walls. Um if you're doing anything that is uh
48:53
in any way pleasing to Allah, then it's angering to Shayan. You're going to have a Shayan as your enemy. You're going to
48:58
have many shayans as your enemy. If you're doing something that is not pleasing to God, Shayan is not going to
49:05
be against you. If you're doing something that is, you better be you're going to have humans and you're going to
49:11
have demons fighting you. And they don't just fight you in your cause. They could
49:17
disrupt your life in other ways. Initiate a divorce, initiate whatever, initiate fitna between you and your
49:23
brothers. And that's one of the the tricks of that shaitan is using against
49:29
people today as they're turning closer to Islam. The prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said
49:40
he's despared that to be worshiped by the praying people in the Arabian
49:46
Peninsula meaning the religious Muslims. meaning they're not going to go and completely go alter the religion and
49:53
fall into idolatry. However, what he does have hope in is so
50:01
argumentation amongst them. And when you look at what some of the things that happened here, Amir Abdul Kader, he had
50:07
to face some from Morocco, a ruler from Morocco
50:13
who agreed with the French to try to assassinate Amir Abdul Kar. So sewing
50:19
discord amongst us. This is an unseen thing that Shayan is doing. So if you're
50:25
a group fighting for something good, if you're an individual fighting for something good, you're going to have
50:30
Shayan to fight against too. And you have to know these tricks and you have to know how to repel him. He pushes
50:37
people until they go too far. Right? There there have been people who said
50:42
they want to go and and um do something physically. I'd had to say
50:49
to okay look listen we have a parameter on our religion. We have a parameters here, right? There are certain things we
50:55
can't do just because you want in the name of doing something. I get the sentiment, but you do have a religion.
51:01
So there's Shayan pushing someone over the top to do something we're not allowed to do in Islam. So point being
51:08
is that uh the the the need for spirituality in action is as the need of
51:15
life to the body. There's no difference. You need health, you need life, you need
51:20
energy, you need motivation. And that's what spirituality is to action.
Advice to young Muslims
51:26
Uh, one final question for you, Dr. Shadi. Um, how can young Muslims today
51:32
who who want to re-engage with uh the breadth of Islamic uh uh uh culture,
51:39
Islamic understanding and part of that is to is to connect intimately with Allah subhana tala. How can one what
51:46
advice would you give to a young Muslim who wants to do that uh but and wants to
51:52
be active and wants to uh make a change for this um what advice would you give them so that uh they don't fall prey to
52:01
a type of Sufism that pacifies them and and that makes them unconcerned about
52:07
the plight of our um I actually worry about that a lot less
52:12
than the opposite and someone who wants to act without neither knowledge or self- purification. Everyone today wants
52:19
to act. I say it's a good thing that actions speak louder than words. And it's frustrating today right now. We're
52:25
all frustrated that there's very little action. Actual concrete changes.
52:32
You're handcuffed. It seems actual concrete changes. I'm not talking like putting up a clever meme or whatever.
52:39
No. Which which is according to Sami Hamdi. I know you've interviewed him a couple times. He did talk about how that
52:45
changed the world, right? So, we can't say that that's not nothing either. But
52:50
when you're seeing what's happening in Gaza and you realize like there's there's not even an army that I could
52:56
say, you know what, I'm going to do it. I'm going to tell the US government, thank you very much.
53:04
I'm going to have to renounce my citizenship and I'm joining this country and I'm joining this army because that's
53:10
the legal way to do it. I mean you certain countries you can't fight for or against and be a citizen at the same
53:15
time. Right? So as someone said I want to go do something. I said like do it lawfully because in Islam we're bound by
53:22
the law. You're going to go and renounce your citizenship then do what you want to do after that. But that's the way it
53:28
would actually occur if we even had a country and we don't even have a nation
53:33
right now that you could say okay that's the country that's fighting for the truth right and I'm going to go with
53:39
them. can't do there's nothing. So it's extremely frustrating but it's I think a
53:45
harder cell but more important to tell people when you want to take action you
53:51
need to act according you're not the going to change the world. It's Allah who changes things and if you want to be
53:58
part of that you need to do it in his way. So you have to learn the Sharia and you have to purify your intention and
54:05
you have to act as a Sharia would want us to act and that's probably the harder
54:10
cell and the more but the more important cell when people want to act and they
54:16
want to do something and be active. Dr. Shahil Masri the mur is is going now.
54:22
Thank you so much for your time. My pleasure.
54:29
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54:34
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