Ep 247. - Salafism, Ibn Abd al-Wahab and the Contested Legacy of Ibn Taymiyyah with Dr Yasir Qadhi
Dr Yasir Qadhi is one of the most notable public imams in the Western space and he never shies away from speaking his mind. He has recently authored a book on Salafism, its history and thought. I met Dr Yasir in Kuala Lumpur and we sat down to discuss salafism, the ideas of Ibn Taymiah and Ibn Abdul Wahab and how we should negotiate the deep divisions that have plagued our ummah for the past decades. Can we transcend our differences?
You can find Dr Yasir Qadhi here:
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation.
Introduction
0:00
took a very strict stance on what he deemed orthodoxy and hence was very unsympathetic
0:06
to any strand outside of his own. My simple question is are we obliged to follow that level
0:13
of strictness in our time have an entire spectrum you have those capies I would say the bulk of them
0:21
that attempt to be apolitical they don't want to even vote Dr. Yaser Kardi is one of the most
0:28
notable public imams in the western space and he never shies away from speaking his mind. He has
0:35
recently authored a book on Salafiism, its history and thought. I met with Dr. Yaser in Koala Lumpa
0:43
and we sat down to discuss Salism, the ideas of Iben Tamir and Iban Abdul Wahab and how we should
0:50
negotiate the deep divisions that have plagued our ummah for the past decades. Can we transcend our
0:56
differences? You spoke about intramuslim rivalry or sectarianism and I think it was in a context of
1:04
the horrific bombing of Thran. Literally, Israel is using the Sunni card. Are we that foolish to
1:11
not see that they're going to benefit? We cannot be that naive to fall prey and we need to come
1:17
out to a post sectarian Muslim world where we need to agree to disagree with civility without hatred.
1:25
Stop finding an easy tangible enemy within and realize the real enemy is the one that's at the
1:34
prophetic strategy summit here in Koala Lumpa and I'm here with Sheh Yasar Khadi. Alam allayikum and
1:40
uh welcome to the thinking Muslim. The pleasure is mine. Well, it's wonderful to have you with us and
1:46
I think this is the first time we're meeting face to face for one of these podcasts. Alhamdulillah, we've met before and we've had a lot of uh conversations online or a few conversations,
1:54
but alhamdulillah, this is the first opportunity I've had to have you in our studio. Alhamdulillah. Indeed, it's the first studio even though we've had three or four really fruitful podcasts online,
2:03
but this is the first time we're actually doing it in person and in all places. Malaysia. Mashallah. Malaysia. That's right. Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah. Now, uh I want to really focus in
2:12
on your book. Alhamdulillah. You've written a a a really thorough academic book today on you brought
2:19
it in today on Salivism and the origins of this idea of this philosophy of this way of thinking
2:26
uh as well as some of the controversies, let's say, surrounding Salism. and and it's something
2:31
that I'm interested in uh really not because of the theological debates that exist within uh uh
2:37
Salifism or between Muslims but but more sort of the the political and the real world impacts of
2:43
Salifism. Uh but before we get to that and maybe there is a connection with with the first question
2:48
I want to raise a a week or so back two weeks back uh you did a hudba and uh you spoke about
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uh intramuslim rivalry or sectarianism and I think it was in a context of the horrific uh bombing of
3:04
Thran and and other places sites and nuclear sites in in Iran and you very much spoke about how we
3:12
need to get over these division visions that seem to uh challenge uh Muslims going forward. Uh there
Controversy from Khutbah
3:20
was a lot of controversy I think from non-Muslims as well as from Muslims when you gave that just
3:26
just talk to that please like what is it that you were trying to achieve? Excellent question. Um I began that by making a disclaimer and that is that I'm not a geopolitical strategist. I'm
3:38
not a political scientist. I don't do strategy and I'm very very cognizant of people staying in
3:46
their lanes of expertise. So I'm trying my best to not venture beyond what I feel qualified to do. I
3:54
believe I am qualified to talk about sectarianism and about how we should be viewing uh different
4:01
Muslim movements and sects visav other problems of the ummah. So in that spirit I was talking and
4:08
uh obviously you have to bring in a little bit of history and geopolitics but the focus really was okay we have these two massive trends. The largest two movements of the um are Sunnism and Shiism and
4:20
historically there has always been an element of problem and animosity between these two strands.
4:28
Let's be honest here. There's never really been uh a a a a a time in which 12 are uh because zism you
4:35
can actually make a case that is fairly neutral for most of Islamic history and there's not that much animosity and they just live and let live. The same cannot be said of 12ism and you know if
4:44
you want to go back hundreds of years the Ottomans and the suffix were at each other's throats you know as you're well aware you know and even before that I mean when the boy were in charge and the
4:52
Abbas was very irked about what's happening. So there's multiple instances of uh unfortunately
4:58
rivalry and hatred that took place and manifested even in warfare uh and the 70s and 80s are no
5:05
different you know in this regard. Now my uh point in the was quite simple and that is that as Allah
5:12
says in the Quran let not the hatred of a group of people cause you to act unjustly. act justly.
5:18
That is the essence of piety. And I gave some basic theological claims and that is that we have
5:23
disagreements with this other strand of Islam. But by and large the the what are called which means
5:30
like the the the the experts of Islamic theology from our side considered the strand to be within
5:36
Islam. Right? The same cannot be said the other way around and that's another topic. But we don't deal with people the way they deal with us. Even if they considered us to be outside the folder,
5:45
at least in classical times, cuz that is changing now. We don't do a tit for tat. We
5:50
look at the reality and because they're Muslims, therefore the rights of Islam still apply to a
5:57
level even if we agree to disagree. And I'm not even calling for unity. I'm being very pragmatic.
6:02
And in light of what is happening uh in light of the fact that the people that are bombing
6:08
are themselves attempting to divide and conquer, we cannot be that naive to fall prey. Literally,
6:17
Israel is using the Sunni card. Are we that foolish to not see that they are going to benefit? So I said that for the greater good for the people of for the reality of the situation the
6:30
real enemy are the people that are butchering children. The real enemy are the ones that are committing a genocide and if they have attacked uh a 12 country nobody should be cheering.
6:43
Nobody should be saying that this is good and I understand certain segments of the Sunni community
6:49
have had very painful political grievances and maybe for them they can sit aside and whatnot.
6:55
I get that. But as a whole our sympathies should be with innocent people around the world including
7:02
the women and children and the innocent men of that that lost their lives for no reason at the hands of a tyrannical genocidal maniacal regime. I think that is a very simple statement to make.
7:13
I didn't find it that controversial and uh whoever wants to disagree, I mean that's their prerogative
7:18
to do so, but I stand by what I said and I haven't changed um my my mind hasn't changed anything what I said in that sermon. In a sense, you're making a a political point there. Your argument I agree,
7:30
but it's coming from a theological background. As I said, I try to stay in my lane, but at time
7:35
there's going to be a little bit of overlap. I can't help that. But my goal is not to, you know, uh analyze the geopolitics of the region. And I didn't go into, you know, what is a long-term
7:44
agenda. I didn't go into that. I'm simply saying, don't use the sectarian card and allow a common
7:51
enemy to divide us even more. We have to agree to disagree civily. That's what I'm asking for. And
7:59
we have to unite against the common enemy. And then if we want to dialogue and you know discuss afterwards, that's fine. But for the time being, there is a regional superpower that is an enemy
8:09
to the entirety of the ummah. And we cannot fall prey to their machinations of divide and conquer.
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your compassion into hope. Is it fair to I mean in relation to what I want to focus in on today your
Sunni Shia divide
9:21
book and and your work and your uh academic study into Salifism is it fair to say that in the last
9:27
century at least or maybe century or two um the Sunni Shia divide has taken a different emphasis
9:35
um you've said historically you know Shia have had antipathy I suppose towards towards Sunnis but
9:42
uh there are lots of Sunnis today uh especially those who subscribe to Salifiism who would
9:49
outright say that Shia are kufur and even worse actually they would they would go even
9:54
further by saying that we should ally against them even with our enemies right so uh do you
10:01
think that way of thinking comes from the type of theological strand you're addressing here in
10:08
your book so one of the problems talking about these issues my one of my main goals and focus
10:15
for the last decade decade has been to minimize sectarianism. We're never going to overcome it,
10:21
but to be reasonable and to minimize at least hatred. The problem comes there's the one of
10:28
the ways to do that is to be is by talking about the various sects and and movements. And the goal
10:33
here is not to inflame sectarianism. The goal is we have to get academic and discuss well okay what does copism say? What do theundi say? What do other people say? And of course because of my
10:42
own association with the movement uh obviously uh I I I felt even more compelled to write a book and
10:48
I've always made the disclaimer this is not a critique this is not a bashing of the movement it's actually a encyclopedic introduction quite almost all of it is just a historic description
10:58
of the movement. So with that having been said, one of the aspects uh that copism has been known
11:05
for and that is uh it is correct to point out is that generally speaking it has been a little bit
11:12
more hostile towards 12 vers than let us say many Sufi movements of the past. Right? That is just
11:18
a factually correct statements. uh beginning with you know the early scholars Iban Tamia
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uh who uh wrote an entire 10 volume work in Hajna which is specifically meant to refute 12 theology
11:31
and he uses very very harsh adjectives against them however as a default did not claim that
11:39
12ers were outside the fold of Islam right uh the same cannot be said of Abdahab by and large
11:46
did seem to view them outside the fold and in fact he attacked Karbala and He uh massacred
11:51
thousands of people in Kbala believing them to be basically pagans outside the fold of Islam. And al obviously the movement uh the followers of of have obviously been even more hostile. Perhaps
12:02
it is correct to state the most hostile uh in the modern Sunni framework uh than many other u
12:09
um strands. That having been said, we don't base truth on personalities or movements and we have
12:14
to discuss concepts and theories. So on what basis do Sunnis consider this movement to be
12:21
outside the fold of Islam? That's a theological discussion. I went over them. The reason why
12:27
the followers found it easier to do so is because of a theological peculiarity to them. And again,
12:34
this is a theological discussion. I know you don't, but we have to do that because all Sunnis love the Sahabah. Yes. So all Sunni movements are very much in opposition to the 12
12:47
understanding of most Sunnis did not consider that to be level of kufur. If you if you if
12:55
you consider Abu Bakr to have not obeyed the prophetam most Sunni scholars in fact I would
13:02
say this is the default that is not considered to be kufur. So the the followers of are the same in
13:08
this regard. What makes them different? There's a theological issue called invoking the dead.
13:16
In this particular issue, the followers of Wahab follow a unique position that no other mainstream
13:24
strand follows which is neither the by the way nor you know um Sufis of course the the the
13:33
uh some of the Sufis consider this to be a valid thing. Ibradab said if you invoke the dead de facto that is and kufur that's it end of story and obviously a part of shia rituals
13:45
is to call upon the imams right most sunnis would have one of two opinions a it is permissible with
13:54
conditions because you're going through them to reach Allah and b it should be avoided because it's bordering on shik but as long as you don't view them to be gods then you are not committing
14:04
shik Right? Abdah didn't have these distinctions and he basically said it is because the 12ers
14:12
typically do this. So it's easier for that strand to as a default say they're outside the fold of
14:17
Islam. This is a theological issue which is why when you battle sectarianism unfortunately you do have to go a little bit deeper and talk about these theological issues. Of course
14:26
I do have a longer video about why I disagree with that assessment. Invoking the dead is not
14:31
something I like to do. But when a Muslim does it, you cannot equate a Muslim with the mindset
14:38
ofahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahillah to a Hindu or a pagan who invokes uh you know even to a Christian when they invoke Jesus. The
14:45
perception that the Christian have of has of Jesus is nowhere near the perception that you
14:51
know a Muslim has of the prophet when they might go to the grave and ask the prophet for something. So can I ask you about that? So uh what you seem to be evoking here is a a view that Islam is a
Parameters?
15:03
big tent and uh uh Islam tries to incorporate as many interpretations that are as valid as possible
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and even if one group does not find another interpretation valid as long as there's an excuse
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that can be given to them from a from a textual perspective then uh we accept them to be within
15:22
the fold even if we disagree with them. Right? What is the what are the parameters here? Like who do we who stands outside of that tent? Excellent question. Are there parameters? Of course there
15:31
are. Yeah. And for me the parameters are the and the implications of the now everybody would say
15:38
that. Abdah would say that as well. So the devils in the detail as the saying goes right for me to
15:45
believe in another god besides Allah. Pause here. This is the whole point. Abdah says you
15:51
don't need to believe in another god. You simply must venerate an object to a point that I think it
15:57
is beyond the red line in which case I'll say you believe in another god even if you don't actually believe in a god. That's the whole point here. I would say no there has to be an affirmation that
16:06
I believe another entity is worthy of worship and Christians believe Jesus is worthy of worship. No
16:13
Muslim believes the prophet is worthy of worship. There's just no Muslim there some ignorant person doesn't know any better but no Muslim believes that the prophet is independently powerful and
16:22
worthy of worship. That's not what Islam is. So if you believe in another god besides Allah or you believe in a prophet after the prophet and we know this by unanimous consensus of the companions when
16:32
came along there were no two opinions and that is one of the corlaries of Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam and I would also add here a part of the when you say there is no god that should be
16:42
worshiped other than Allah there must be worship that is done to that god to Allah. So there
16:48
are some strands such as the Durus. Forget their theology that's bad enough. They have no worship.
16:54
They have no salah. They have no they have no Ramadan. They have no of the Quran. When there's
17:00
no worship, how can there be any dean? Right? So I would say the the red lines are fairly clear
17:06
and that is to reject Allah as the sole deity or to reject the finality of the prophet and
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his implications. That is the big tent of Islam. Yeah, within it are is everybody else the same?
17:18
I never said that. I never said they're all the same. Some are closer to truth than others. And
17:24
without a doubt within all the strands, obviously you know what I call generic sunnism, which is the Quran and Sunnah and respect to the Sahabah. This is something that I think is you can derive it
17:34
easily from the Quran. But I do make a claim which is a bit contentious to some. Mainstream Sunnism
17:41
in all of its forms, the differences between them are so trivial as to really not be anything that
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should be of a cultural issue. Let it be discussed in advanced seminaries. Let it be discussed behind closed doors. But once you've agreed that I want to worship Allah based upon the sunnah of the
17:59
messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihi wasallam and we understand by this that you know the sahab are going to be the ones transmitting that sunnah. by and large you're in the same room. If somebody has
18:10
a different they believe in divine imams, they're in a different you know room but still within the
18:15
building of Islam. You get my point here, right? So I I think that one of my things, one of the
18:20
explicit arguments that I'm continuously making. It is time for us to rethink through classical
18:26
sectarianism. I don't have to categorize you based upon abstract notions of theology. Okay. Okay.
Ibn Taymiyya life
18:33
That's interesting. I mean when we talk about the hostility that sometimes exists between Muslims, Ibent Tamir is almost always evoked as someone who injected uh some intolerance within Sunni
18:45
Islam. I mean is that a fair assessment of tell me about I I don't think I know enough about his
18:52
life. Explain explain that briefly to us. I would say intolerance is not the right word to use. Um
18:58
although it could be interpreted as such. I would say every single strand of Islam without exception
19:04
whether it is uh strands ofism or strands of mortalism or strands ofism or strands of
19:11
protoundism or halism you find people that were so passionate about what they believed that they
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were extremely harsh on anybody who disagreed with them. This is not unique to Ibia. There are many
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examples in the Ashari school of fanatics. There are many examples in 12 schools in Sufi schools
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you know uh when Imam al Ghazali's books first reached and they weren't followers of Tamia who
19:38
burnt them at the stake these were mainstream Malikis they were not was in real life you know
19:46
this before as you should all be aware this reader should the viewer should all be aware when I im
19:52
reached and the preachers and the theologians said this is a heretical book Why? And they because
19:58
they felt that it is uh preaching a version of of and even that they were not happy with. So
20:06
actually they were they were closer to theology but that's not even as I'm trying to say they
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were not tamian wasn't wasn't even born. Yeah. So imi's books were banned in andaloo and they were
20:17
burnt in andaloo famously by whom? Not by tamian not by his followers by people who had a different
20:23
understanding of sunnism and they did not like you know understanding. Now a little bit later IB
20:28
Tomat comes along. Ibat is a fanatical asharite. He is a hardcore asharite. And of course he is the
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leader of the right and he preaches according to and he says if your isian version I mean call it
20:43
the version you are aim and anthropomorphic and he would persecute it is even said he killed people.
20:49
So when you quote I tame and say oh he was a uh you know fanatic or whatn not I mean historically
20:55
speaking I would say one finds harshness in all strands and I'm not somebody who's going to back
21:03
project our sensibilities onto them they had a different time a different place I'm somebody
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who's saying however ibia or al-rai or al- gazali or ibat however they treated their opponents must
21:16
we in where you from Manchester Manchester or London for London, right? London. London. Must we in London? Must I in Dallas import the hatred that they had of each other into our societies? That's
21:28
the question I'm asking. Right. I'm not concerned about justifying or exonerating or defending or
21:35
critiquing Ibia's harshness. It's a fact. He felt the Asharis were a deviant school, but he
21:43
was in his personal life soft upon them. That's the irony. In his writing, he was a bit harsh.
21:48
But one-on-one dealing with the human element, he was very soft, very kind. When his opponent
21:53
who wanted to get him jailed died, he actually visited the the widow, gave them help and said,
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"I am here to help you in his loss." There's a humanity that is absent in his writings. And
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by the way, there's a whiff of this in the online world as well that when the person becomes online, there you get you. You actually find Tami to be very soft and gentle person one-on-one. But in the
22:15
writings, he was a little bit harsh. I would say you can find examples of much worse harshness in
22:21
many other strands. Uh but yes, I do agree with you that took a very strict stance on what he
22:27
deemed orthodoxy and hence was very unsympathetic to any strand outside of his own. My simple
22:34
question is are we obliged to follow that level of strictness in our times and I don't think we are.
Pluralism and intolerance
22:41
What you described there of Islamic history in a sense sounds quite bleak. Um are you saying that
22:48
um in the sort of great the long jury of Islamic history that the uh intolerance was stronger than
22:56
the pluralism or were there was it mostly a pluralistic uh you know we were living through
23:02
pluralistic eras and they were punctuated with periods of intolerance like which way around was
23:07
was it when it comes to history? No, I would say as a default society tolerated pluralism,
23:14
but there was always hostility at the intellectual level and rarely at the political level. One of
23:20
the hallmarks of our civilization in contrast to Christianity, we rarely went to war or even
23:27
punished heretical views. It did happen once in a while, right? was allegedly executed for certain
23:34
views and whatnot. But if you wanted to count the number of people that were executed for her particular views, you can probably do so on the finger of one hand. I'm being a little bit more.
23:41
But yeah, basically in contrast to Christianity, which as you're aware, its entire history is about
23:47
battle after civil war, after heresy and whatnot. So I would say that by and large the reality the
23:54
lived reality of the um was pluralistic but you've always had pockets of people refuting one another
24:01
and once in a while governments that endorsed so for example theites as you know instituted the and
24:08
the were extremely fanatical extremely fanatical and they actually the uh sephids they forced to so
24:18
again this is an awkward topic but this factually historically what happened that Sunundism was the
24:24
dominant of Iran everybody knows this I mean Bkari all coming from Iran as we're aware the sephabids
24:32
quite literally forced a lot of it via persecution it's an awkward topic of history right but that's
24:38
the exception the norm was there the society allowed a level of pluralism frankly allow me to
24:45
say this even the average person if he or she were to read Islamic history, they would be shocked at
24:55
how open most of Islamic society was. The explain that. Yeah. The prevalence of alcohol everywhere,
25:03
right? The prevalence of singing girls and singing girls means there's an implication, right? The prevalence of alternative lifestyles. Again, that's something shocking to the average
25:12
person. Everybody knows this is people knew it was there but it wasn't like in the streets.
25:18
It's just it's there. Everybody knows what it is but you know it's it's there. No. So the the
25:24
the notion that many people have is that there was this idealistic utopia of the past, right? And that's cuz they haven't studied history. And that's because as well some of our preachers paint
25:33
the past in such romanticized terms. And of course I'm against that, right? But yeah. So what what
25:38
humans are humans? Humans are humans. In every society, you're going to have these types of,
25:43
you know, evils. The point of Islamic society is we minimize its existence in the public sphere,
25:50
right? That's really the whole goal. And of course, you preach against its existence
Madhabs and Literalism
25:55
in the private, but we do not monitor the private spheres. So on the subject of IMI, I mean apart from possible perceived intolerance and alhamdulillah you've placed it within a
26:05
broader context, a historical context, there is a claim that he was a very controversial figure
26:10
because he injected a form of literalism into uh Islamic f which historically especially when we
26:18
think about the formahib uh was absent. I mean is again is that a fair observation of of his of
26:25
his theory? I don't think so at all. Right. Um I believe the literalism you can at least say maybe
26:30
in the attributes he was more inclined towards the literalist side but in terms of if anything he was
26:36
one of the revors in the sense he's actually in his time frame there was quite a lot of hostility
26:43
uh about breaking away from the medabs. There was an oification that you should follow one of the four schools and was actually one of the main and there was a lot of animosity trying to
26:54
accuse the other schools of being deviant. So we're talking about theological deviations and heresies. There were pockets of Islamic history where accusations of heresy were very common
27:04
against other schools of law. These simplistic mantras that our modern Muslims say, "Oh, there are four orthodox schools of Sunni Islam." People need to understand these are contested mantras.
27:14
These are contested and constructed slogans, right? And we might just pass them around as
27:19
if they're factually correct. Firstly, they're not because even to this day, people don't agree with this. And secondly, in the past, that was not the case. There were plenty of times where the notion
27:30
was and as you're aware, there even fatwas about not marrying between the schools of law, you know,
27:35
and there's fatwas about angry fatwas about the prayer not being valid behind other people's mabs,
27:41
right? This is well known. That's not sobby comes along far from being a literist in that regard.
27:48
He actually writes one of his most useful books that serves as a template for and that is writes
27:58
raising the blame and criticism from the great scholars and it is a defense of all fours like all
28:05
four have a reason why they said it and they're all trying to reach the sunnah of the prophet.
28:10
This was a unique book that is actually in defense of the four schools, right? And uh comes along and
28:18
expands it in his and a lot of it is basically again trying to empathize why did the say what
28:25
did they say? Why did the say what they say? So I do not agree at all with this crass stereotype. Ibentia was a defender of a vibrancy of Islamic law. You could accuse him, yes, of being more of
28:36
a literalist in theat, but he's not inventing it. He's going back to the earlier humbi tradition as I explained in my book. So I want to understand I mean again the west tends to when especially post
Smearing of Ibn Taymiyya
28:47
911 uh they tend to use salifism as a catch all term uh to yeah imply radicalism or fanaticism or
28:57
fundamentalism and Iben Tamir becomes a a a key figure in the conversation about about Salifism
29:06
and about jihadism as as we know right and uh often they paint Ibamir in a very sort of crude
29:13
way. I mean, from what you're saying, this is a highly intelligent, literate man who's writing
29:18
lots of books and tackling subjects. Yes, he's got some intolerances and got some some blind spots,
29:24
but you know, here's a person who is a who's an academic in in in today's terminology. Is
29:30
that a fair I don't think anybody can deny that really. Uh I believe the so there are many trends trends of Islam. The Salafi trend as I document in my book from the premodernity
29:42
up until modernity. It is I think factually correct to state that they were not blessed
29:47
with any figure as intelligent and as arudite and as well read and as well articulated and as
29:53
polymathic really in his entirety. I mean just look at the sheer scope of his writings right
29:59
he's talking about all the different groups he writes one of the most academic reputations of
30:05
medieval Christianity he's read the works of the Christians right and he writes you know
30:13
a nine volume or a 10 volume book about the correct response to those who change the religion of Jesus. And this is a book that is way ahead of its time. He's he's understood
30:23
the evolution of Christian theology. Look at how the title of the book those who changed the religion of the Messiah and uh he's one of the first of the strand to have studied understood
30:35
to have understood Arab to have understood Ibena and of course he strongly disagrees. there's no there's no sympathy but he's refuting based upon a knowledge and awareness not just
30:44
simplicity. So um as for the simplistic um perception of Ibia as being a a jihadist,
30:53
unfortunately this is due to a quirk of history which I go into also in the book which is that um a number of it so I ti of course you know passed away in the early 8th century his thought
31:04
lived for generations to come for centuries to come and it found iterations in various people but as with all figures when another person discovers them there's always a reinterpretation,
31:15
right? Nobody can be purely Gazalian in our times. A lover of Gazali, an admirer of Gazali would take
31:22
Ghazali and then become a modern Ghazali, right? And with their own. So Ib Abdahab comes along
31:28
and believes that he is reviving Ibamia. But of course in the process he reinvents him as well.
31:36
And a part of what he does is he brings a militancy that was absent by and large from Ibia. I say by and large because there's one exception to that rule. Ibia never fought against
31:46
fellow Muslims. He fought against the Mongols, the grandson of Genghis Khan, right? Hah. Of course,
31:55
the problem comes. We as mainstream Muslims don't blink twice. Of course, he fought against Haku.
32:00
The problem comes non-Muslims say ah but Hulaku uh you know claimed to be a Muslim or at least his
32:08
you know segments of his army claimed to be Muslim right so by the time you know by the time uh sorry
32:14
not sorry I mean uh um the son the grandson of Khan okay who attacked Damascus sorry the name
32:21
is Amjet by the way for the record so if I make a mistake is because of my I just arrived a few hours ago um but uh the fact is that they claim to be nominally Muslim Now gave the famous fatwa
32:32
against the Mongols which is well known and he said they are not Muslim even if they claim to be
32:38
Muslim. This fatwa was never given to Sufis even to Shia to it was given to the the the army of of
32:48
of the Mongols simply because there was no salah or zak there was no Islam at all. So Ib Tamia
32:58
said these are people claiming Islam for political purposes and he gave his famous fatwa even if they
33:05
claim to be Muslim they're not Muslim and that now that fatwa is not that controversial unfortunately
33:13
after the revival of Abdulahab and a number of iterations came along in the 60s and 70s movements
33:20
in Egypt used that fatwa against fellow Egyptians and the government of Egypt. Yeah, they found that
33:28
fatwa and they and they interpreted it and they applied it in their context and that generated
33:35
it spawned off a series of jihadist movements, right? in resulting in the assassination of anat
33:42
that was one of those movements that's basically a semi admire right uh who over to as well again
33:49
following from that strand as well as well ISIS as well all of these different movements that
33:54
are causally linked to one another there is a tapping into aian thought right I would argue
34:02
that tapping in is reinterpreted to the point of it becoming completely unique to them nonetheless
34:08
from the outsers's perspective, they seem to be in the trajectory. You see what I'm saying? They're
34:13
quoting and they are theologically from the Tamian school when it comes to God's attributes,
34:20
when it comes to when so they're coming from that school. Hence the perception that Iben Tamia is a
34:27
uh jihadist fanatic in his life. He never ever physically fought against nor did he ever give
34:34
the you know declaration of or whatn not. So I would say this is a reality that is more due to
34:39
quirks of history than to actually thought. But are they also making reference to Ibah
Ibn Wahab and Ottomans
34:48
who um uh had a a particular view towards in particular the Ottomans and uh I mean
34:55
my understanding is that you know he his view was that the Ottomans uh had committed kufur
35:00
in in many respects. So obviously I jumped over this to get to and ISIS. Obviously where where
35:06
are these where are these people getting this misinterpretation of from? It is through Muhammad Abd. So he is the filter. I would I would argue of course his followers would disagree. Uh and this
35:17
is one of the contentious issues um with uh what I am saying what they say. But I think history
35:23
is very clear. I think there really to be factual there should be no two opinions about this issue.
35:28
This is an incontrovertible statement that Iban Abdul Wahab and his immediate followers and his
35:36
descendants and the first Saudi states viewed the Ottoman Empire to be a paganistic empire that is
35:45
outside the fold of Islam as a default. This is something that is crystal clear actually in his own writings really and in his and in the writings and epistles of his own children and grandchildren
35:55
they write treaties in which they discuss the verdict not of the Ottoman Empire cuz that's a
36:01
given the verdict of those tribes that refused to fight with them against the Ottomans their verdict
36:11
was they are kufur because they have refused to fight against the kafir this is like the
36:17
chain that happens here. Right? So I think it is uh not controversial at all to say historically
36:24
but unfortunately um as the book demonstrates I've spoken about this in other interviews there
36:29
has been a a reinterpretation and a sanitization of the image of the founder uh which has caused
36:35
uh the modern followers by and large to say no no he was not avid jihadi to which I say
36:41
as I've said multiple times actually it's good that they're reinterpreting and it's good that they're reimagining because we don't want them to follow of the original teachings and we'd
36:51
much rather that they have a romanticized uh version. Yeah. But factually speaking,
36:58
ISIS is tapping into the original thought more than many of the biological descendants and the
37:04
ministers and the teachers of that movement of our times. Until now, we've talked about
Intolerant vs Quietest Salafism
37:11
um uh Salifism that uh may be intolerant, may have created groups like ISIS and you know groups
37:18
that have uh rightly or wrongly interpreted the works of but of course we've also got a strand
37:25
of Salifism that is pretty quietest that obeys the rulers even if the rulers commit all sorts of harm
37:32
against against a Muslim ummah who accept uh the authoritarianism of these governments and states.
37:38
and and say even if they you know steal your money and whip your back, we should we should accept their government and accept their rule, right? You had a a scholar who went on on TV
37:47
and said even if the ruler commits fornication in front of everyone, we should we should obey him,
37:52
right? And and praise him. Uh where does that strand come from then? So one of the aspects of
37:58
copism and before I move there, I just like to state also for the record uh obviously because the questions were always talking about these negative aspects. Every movement has it positive.
38:06
So I must point out has a lot of positives right and we should always praise the good and try our
38:12
best to to minimize the evil. I was going to come to that I may come to that early because actually so many of my friends are I suppose salvi right at least they come from Salvi school and they're very
38:21
good Muslims. Yes, exactly. So, let's be clear here. That's one of the problems talking about a movement or whatnot. You we're not attempting to constantly bash whatnot. Salafies produce the
38:31
most academic Muslims without a doubt. No strand of Islam competes with them when it comes to the
38:38
average lay person of that movement is more aware of the classical sciences, right? More
38:44
aware of the names of great scholars, more aware of the evidences of what they say. Saraphism is
38:50
essentially an academic discourse, right? It prioritizes classical traditions and books and
38:59
emphasizes learning, rigorous learning. Now you bring up the issue of quietism and pacifism and
39:06
I need to point out Salafism is of course a very broad strand and within the umbrella there are
39:14
many pockets and the problem comes you cannot even simply categorize because as with all nuances it's
39:21
a spectrum. So you can have a who has quietism in some aspects and you know perhaps is guilty of
39:27
other aspects or positive in other aspects. Every person combines all of these different uh you know
39:33
aspects of the uh of the Salafi spectrum. If you wanted to be simplistic, you could say if you look
39:38
at it merely from the lens of politics, let's ignore everything else. Salafies have an entire
39:43
spectrum, you have those Salafies, I would say the bulk of them that attempt to be apolitical.
39:50
And I would say as a modern movement, this is the default. Really, this is the default. They don't
39:56
want to even vote. Yes. They don't want to get involved in politics. They don't want to talk for
40:02
or against the rulers. just ignore them and get involved with your personal piety, your rituals,
40:08
your dress code, your teaching and preaching. This is the bulk of safism and because of this
40:15
by and large uh one of the frustrating things we have is that are so apolitical that they're actually you know not concerned about you know change via via politics right which I personally
40:25
believe is a mistake I believe change should also be via politics but um that's I would say the bulk
40:30
a second category of is what you have explained which is not just quietest uh sorry not quietest
40:38
but actually supporting the rulers This strand I would say can be divided into two and in my
40:46
book I go into details in this. The first of them are those who do not make this the core of their
40:54
identity and typically view it as being the lesser of two evils and not like a religious
41:01
obligation. Yeah. And they would say opening the door for criticizing the ruler and calling for
41:08
rebellion causes chaos in society. And I would say this is the position of the senior clergy
41:15
that associated with the governments in the Middle East especially in the '90s. They didn't make this
41:21
a key point of theology. They didn't constantly use Quran and Sunnah. It was rather this is a
41:28
part of our tradition and it's better for us to do so. And the emphasis is not on the ruler and
41:33
obedience to the ruler. I would say this we can find this from the great giants of the 90s you
41:38
know shehbaz and sheh albani even uh even though he was be more eolitical but still no rebellion
41:44
and now this is clearly their default. This is the second strand uh sorry this is the first strand
41:50
within uh obedience the second strand makes this a key point of doctrine theology. Hence if you go
41:57
against it you are a heretic in the eyes of God. Yeah, this strand has been given different names whether they're called jamies or this was the strand that considered obedience to the ruler as
42:08
a primary token of piety in the eyes of God. And this is the strand that has been given a little
42:14
bit of impetus. But dare I say, don't assume that social media is representative of their quantity.
42:22
Right? You understand and I understand that there are forces at play. By and large, this strand has
42:27
always been minimal in the real world. Right? So this is what we call the jams of then there's
42:33
another strand. There were the politically active and this is the what's called the sah movement.
42:38
where where in that strand they didn't want to rebel against the ruler but neither were they happy with the ruler and they wanted reform from within. They wanted to change
42:49
policies without changing the ruler by allowing the ruler to accept uh to accept input from the
42:57
people and the masses. Basically a type of shur or a democracy or something of this nature. Maybe
43:02
they didn't even call it democracy but they said at least representative of you're ruling over us so listen to what we have to say. Right? And then you have of course on the other opposite
43:10
side you have those who rebelled and said this is not a legitimate ruler and we have to fight
43:15
against them. And the one of the beginning strands that did this was Jim Ib in 1979 when he rebelled
43:24
against the king said that the king is outside the fold of Islam and took thea hostage in the name
43:32
of Islam he stopped the the and of course I've given lectures about this as well. So we've had
43:37
the entire spectrum of caphism and we need to be careful to understand that these are not defining
43:43
characteristics. One could quite as easily take this spectrum copy and paste it onto Sufism,
43:50
copy and paste it onto the obundism, copy and paste on other strands as well. You know, quietist apolitical supporting the rulers but not as a point of faith but policy,
43:59
supporting the rulers as a point of faith, right? And you find the same spectrum in other strands as well. That's interesting. That's very interesting. Now earlier on you talked about um the potential
Salafi critique of fiqh
44:08
Salafi critique of um of Muslim society centuries after you know the um revelation and and that is
44:16
the oification of and the oification of into four schools of thought and and the sort of slightly
44:23
um uh let's call it uh partisanship when it comes to the schools of thinking and so I'm
44:29
a hipfi and I'm not going to listen to the shafi and whatever. Now is there a an argument from your
44:34
perspective now that that critique in some senses is probably quite true you know the oification of
44:41
f and and the uh reduction of f to four schools of thought and uh you know the the closing of
44:49
the doors of Ishtad maybe that's apocryphal I I don't know but you know the the uh the idea
44:55
that you can't renew because all of the known questions have been answered by the uh imams of
45:02
the four schools of fort. Um is that a sensible criticism regardless of where salivism leads
45:08
you or at least some strands of salivism lead you? Is that a sensible criticism? Personally, I agree that it is a sensible criticism. I don't believe that following one of the four schools of
45:17
law is obligatory in the eyes of Allah. M but I do believe that it is sensible and safer for
45:26
the average lay person to stick to a recognized school simply because the average lay person does
45:32
not have the requisite tools by which to navigate the controversy over and the problem comes between
45:41
theory and reality there is a massive divide theory would say why stick to one school you
45:48
should just take every issue and look at it in its you know uh real in its manifestations weigh
45:53
the pros and cons realistically what happens is you get a free-for-all the market the average
45:59
lay user in the end of the day suppose I don't know anything about and you ask me a question
46:04
if I log on to Google if I ask 10 people I will get 10 different answers in most modern
46:10
issues I will get at least three four answers how will I judge realistically since I do not
46:19
have the tools. I will either A follow appeal to authority emotional or b follow my desires.
46:27
Because of this lived reality, understandably traditionalist-minded Madhabased scholars say,
46:35
look at the problem with do it yourself. Let us shut that door and require the average lay
46:43
person to follow one of the four schools because at least the four schools are tried and tested, right? At least the four schools have a history. They have an entire encyclopedic references. They
46:52
have a a systematically developed that can is not going to lead them astray. And I sympathize with
47:01
that. So I do say for the lay person it is good for them that they should follow a recognized school. That having been said to say that it is therefore impermissible for the qualified person
47:11
to break away. I would say no. And I give you I have many examples and I mean in other lectures I've given them. me as fat of the triple divorce. Right? This is a simple example. All four schools
47:23
have the triple divorce in them. Right? That if a man says for whatever reason three times
47:28
I divorce you. All four schools have agreed that permanently the woman becomes haram upon him. And
47:38
Ibi argued this goes against the and you cannot break up marriages. The evidences are against it
47:44
and this and that. And Ibia singlehandedly says against the four schools, you are wrong. And in
47:52
our modern times, how many men act foolishly and they shouldn't act like this and they just
48:00
in their anger say right and children's lives are, you know, messed up. Marriages of decades
48:07
are broken apart. Yes, the man was foolish. But does the Sharia actually say triple divorce is
48:13
the end? just simply verbalizing an anger you know most mother would say that so I would argue when
48:18
you act and I I have many other examples as well I have a whole lecture and a long um online article
48:24
about um let's say uh definition of a musafer you want to be literalist the four schools have
48:30
a number how much you travel is like well let's think about not just a number because a number you
48:37
know varies from time to place okay other aspects as well the four schools by and large say that uh you know for example a wife uh who falls sick, she needs to pay for her own medication or her father
48:47
needs to pay for it, right? And I mean we should or for example, one modern issue is alimony. A man
48:52
divorces his wife after 20 years for no reason. That's the key point. For no reason, there's no
48:57
legitimate reason. Classical would basically say the mah plus a nominal gift, whatever,
49:03
right? Can we rethink through and say, "Hold on a sec. If she was a stay-at-home and she sacrificed for the kids now that the man has wealth and just wants to discard and get another lady,
49:12
that's his right to do that. But surely she also deserves dignity. Can we rethink through and say,
49:18
"Hold on a sec. If certain conditions are met, should he not be liable for an alimony?" Right? Again, again, we keep on, you know, you you're aware 20 30 years ago,
49:29
massive controversy over the language of the and to this day, one of the meds is adamant. No,
49:34
the should be in the classical language. These are things that you keep on coming across over and over again. The the clash between well the says this versus the lived reality. So I am somebody
49:46
who says trained people should come together and see in light of modern situation what aspects of
49:55
classical can be rethought in our times. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying the lay person. I'm
50:00
not saying the non-trained person. Do you believe that a mushahed can arise today who creates his
New school of thought?
50:07
own school of thought? I'm not I'm not a fan of a new school of thought. I'm not a fan because been
50:16
there done that. You can't reinvent the wheel. And those who happen to be active and preaching
50:23
when there was a blank slate, they filled a lot of that slate up. But theoretically, theoretically it
50:31
would be problematic because of one other issue and that is are they going to reinvent that would
50:37
be problem because already the have a different version than the Malik than the and by and large
50:44
they have kind of sort of codified. So if they were to reinvent an entire epistemology that
50:49
would really be a very interesting and and also problematic and also who's going to follow. So if
51:01
the fifth school hardly had any traction and they are alive and preaching in classical and medieval
51:08
Islam do you really think you know if I'm just giving example of Jalal Sab comes along and says
51:13
I'm going to follow the Jalal right who's going to follow Jal by the way it's got a good ring
51:18
to it it does yeah Jalali and Jamali yeah it does have a ring by the way uh without mentioning names
51:25
there are thinkers in Arab world in Pakistan who essentially have done that. Yeah. Without I don't
51:33
like to mention but they've done that and guess what they have a following but they don't call
51:39
themselves a new school but they are doing that. So nobody has I mean you know I can disagree but
51:46
what are you going to do in the end of the day? Yeah that's their prerogative to do that and they have to answer to Allah subhana wa tala. I am not a fan. What I am a fan of, and I've said this
51:56
publicly, is committees of qualified scholars from the trained schools using the hermeneutics and the
52:05
epistemological uh paradigms that we agree upon. Rethink through only modern issues. There is no
52:13
need to rethink through you know salah and and you know unless okay calculations. Yeah, that's
52:20
a new issue. Let's think about it. Okay. Yeah. issues of 401k zaka, issues of organ transplant,
52:25
issues of IVF, right? Issues of any other issues of this nature, of a modern nature, we should
52:32
think beyond the formabs. I have no problem with this. Not because the formedabs are deficient,
52:39
but because the times have changed and the formedabs are human. It's not a critique of the past. It's a realization that the past did the best they could given the circumstances they had
52:50
and those circumstances have changed. But I'm also a fan by this by by the way of scholarly committees not of individuals. I like 5 10 20 people coming together and having some you know
53:01
uh support from one another. I think we we you know we talked about how this is not a criticism
53:07
of of Salifism and and um there are some very good Muslims who are selfies actually some of
53:12
the best Muslims I know you know family people who've got very good lives very rounded lives you
53:18
know they subscribe to you know I've been through the movement that's very true that's true and um
Quran and Sunnah
53:23
a lot of my friends are but however they would say the following I want you to you know give me a a response to this you know when you bring up for example oh the Hani school says the following
53:32
or the Shafi school says the following. They would say but Quran and Sunnah says something
53:38
different. How would you address that? Yes. So uh firstly this is a strand of Salafism. This
53:44
is a common misconception that allies are like this in the western world. No doubt this is the
53:52
more predominant strand and this goes back to a particular individual who had a particular
53:58
understanding you know of however Abdah Wahab was through and through humbly right Ibaz was very
54:06
humbly Saudi copism is by and large humblite in so the western Salafi strand is owing its origin and
54:20
its thought and it influence more to the Jordanian scholar and his version was what you are saying
54:27
right I would say that it sounds very appealing but slogans do not betray realities when you quote
54:37
a Quran or a sunnah when you quote a hadith and you apply it to your situation whether you know it
54:43
or not you are using a set of hermeneutics you are extrapolating ating from the text to your context.
54:54
And in that extrapolation, right, you are making many assumptions, you are clearly utilizing a a
55:04
frame of hermeneutics that others would call. You don't even recognize that it is. So you assume the
55:13
Quran is speaking to you directly, the hadith is speaking to you directly. That is your assumption
55:18
and that is simply not the case. So when you say the Quran and Sunnah says in reality you assume
55:25
the Quran and Sunnah says but the Quran and Sunnah is not speaking to your situation. For
55:32
you to apply it to your situation is an assumption that you make. So the way that I phrase this, your
55:39
understanding of the evidence is not the evidence. So if somebody challenges an evidence you present,
55:45
they are not challenging the evidence. They're challenging your understanding of the evidence. And this is what many of the modern copies fail to realize. And of course Albani did this famously in
55:55
his book the prophet's prayer describes that book was uh a gamecher. It spread the dwa like nothing
56:02
else. and a spread a version of the dawa because the assumption was given the assumption was given
56:07
that the Quran and sunnah are all that you need and the mhabs are in competition with the Quran
56:13
and sunnah and the reality once you study all of the meds are actually the goal of it is to
56:19
interpret the Quran and sunnah right there is no such thing as the Quran and sunnah without interpretation can I ask you uh I've come to the following conclusion and I want you to uh tell
Different ways into faith
56:31
me whether this conclusion is is probably what you think and whether it's it's a sensible position to
56:36
have. I think that uh there are different people with different inclinations and they come to Islam
56:43
because they've got different temperaments and inclinations and there are some people who like
56:48
Sufism and they come to Islam through Sufism. There are some people who like sort of the more
56:54
uh reassurance of of a literalist type of view and maybe Salivism provides that for them. And there are different so people come to Islam through different means and in a sense we have to sort
57:04
of accept that human beings are different and there is this broad church in in our best days
57:11
we have this pluralism and it's not about really refuting or we can do that at a theoretical at an
57:17
academic level but it's about living with the fact that people are different and they come to Islam
57:24
through like the way I think about it is that some people without the reassurance of Salifism
57:30
or the sort of spirituality of sufism they may not be that close to Islam and so you know it's
57:37
good to have different ways into into the faith I mean is that how does that so actually you are uh
57:44
you are mirroring very something very similar to what I said in a number of podcasts in the past
57:50
and that is that I'm a firm believer that human psychology plays a role in which trend of Islam you follow agreed human psychology plays a role in which strand of Islam you follow. Yeah. And a lot
58:02
of times and and in fact this is going to sound a bit strange but isn't it true and I know this
58:08
is so awkward to say that every movement has a stereotypical caricature to it in terms of
58:14
its follower right so and that stereotypical curricature actually goes a lot of back to a
58:20
person's psyche and right so people of a certain version of you who find them to be a certain way
58:27
people of you knowism find a certain way a certain way, you know, but it's just it's the way it is.
58:33
And I would say a lot of it goes back to the way your brain is wired, certain strands appeal to you
58:41
more than others. Yes, I actually firmly believe this. And once you understand this reality, which
58:47
is my understanding of it, then how can you how can you be so harsh? May I even say you find the
58:55
kernels of this even in the time of the Sahab and Tabir. Some of the Sahaba were more politically
59:00
inclined, others were more apolitical. Some of the Sahab were more scholastic, others were more
59:06
aesthetic. You find that entire spectrum, right? And those kernels are there and those kernels
59:12
eventually become, you know, larger waves and they become codified and they become strands.
59:18
So it's not a coincidence then that this is of course historically true for example they've
59:25
done a number of surveys that what what are called the Islamist movements generally speaking they are
59:31
from the middle and upper class educated generally they're not from the uneducated or peasant however
59:38
you want to call them right and generally some of the strands of mysticism some of the more ritualistic whatnot are found more in that category these are demographics that transcend.
59:48
You know, this is just truth. Yeah, I would argue that's the re the reason that's the case is simply
59:54
because certain understandings appeal to other people. So there are some people they love to go
1:00:00
into abstract aspects of theology and not copism appeals to them. There are others they just like
1:00:06
you know aspects of mysticism. Some people love to be led. Others want to be challenged and lead.
1:00:14
These are all aspects. So when you understand this I become much more like I said I take a back step when it comes to these issues and as long as for me as long as you're mainstream and
1:00:24
again as I said for me mainstream is very large but there's mainstream orthodoxy and then there's basically the red lines of Islam as long as you're even within the red lines of Islam what are what
1:00:34
are red lines that I think definitely we have to oppose violence any strand that is violent
1:00:40
against others we have to be violent against them as a state secondly intellectual violence
1:00:45
any strand that is constantly making we have to at least make not we have to verbally say that's
1:00:52
crossing the red line. Yeah. Right. Otherwise if they're preaching their version and without
1:00:59
mentioning names there are preachers in Pakistan in the Arabian world I really think they are not
1:01:05
in the fold of orthodoxy but when you look at their followers their followers are Muslim
1:01:12
because of that preaching. Yes. And had it not been for that preaching in all likelihood they
1:01:17
would not be Muslim. So I look at the broader picture rather than criticize ideas I disagree
1:01:26
with about this person for example which I might do without mentioning names. Without mentioning names I look at well there's actually a functionality and a purpose. I look at it as the
1:01:36
last se before leaving Islam that there are people that that you know hardcore fundamentalism doesn't
1:01:42
appeal to a lot of them they gravitate towards me because I'm not a but then there are people even I'm too fundamentalist for so then they go even further out right and then they meet other
1:01:51
people along the way and they're like oh okay I like this guy and they find iman spirituality
1:01:58
with those people and they are praying five times a day they're reading Quran they're fasting what
1:02:03
more do you want then okay I agree agree certain bizarre views. I agree reinterpretations but in
1:02:09
the end of the day they're Muslim. So I don't constantly look at the negative. If I must I
1:02:17
try to correct generically but there are certain things that have to be corrected. And as I said of
1:02:23
them is the fanatics and the sectarian preachers of all strands. To me you have to refute them
1:02:29
intellectually. At the very beginning we had a conversation about sort of pluralism versus a
Young people and salafism
1:02:34
very sort of uh narrow uh partisan view about and about sort of aa issues. Um, of course,
1:02:41
we do live in a in a world dominated by social media and in particular young people tend to come
1:02:47
into Islam with these very oified, very strong partisan views. And you made a very po point
1:02:53
about Sunni Shiaism, but I suppose we can extend that to intra Sunni Islam, let's say, or you know,
1:03:00
intramuslim debates. um like what's your advice to in particular young people when it comes to some
1:03:07
of these divisions that exist and have existed for centuries? Um you know h how do we reconcile
1:03:14
those? How do we debate those and how do we move forward? Yeah. Uh this has been one of my main
1:03:20
uh points of of contention with all fundamentalist strands that emphasize their points of uniqueness
1:03:28
vividly the other strands. Unfortunately, the average graduate of a seminary is taught
1:03:35
a curriculum that goes back many centuries and is then let loose in the world. And when they are let
1:03:41
loose in the world, preaching and teaching, all too often the only thing they know how to teach
1:03:48
is what they were taught in the seminaries of centuries old. But the modern university student
1:03:56
is no longer concerned with the abstract issues that the seminary teaches from its books of 500
1:04:02
years ago. And so when this preacher comes out and says the same language of his teachers, hey,
1:04:08
beware of those who say God is like this or God is like that. Inevitably, it leads to soft or hard
1:04:14
sectarianism, but sectarianism nonetheless. And this is unfortunately rampant across the Muslim
1:04:21
world. This is where I am saying enough is enough. And we need to come out to a post sectarian Muslim
1:04:29
world where we need to agree to disagree with civility without hatred and genuinely understand
1:04:36
the controversies of the past do not need to be transformed into political ruptures of today.
1:04:44
all mainstream Sunnis all mainstream Sunnis what unites them is far more than what divides them and
1:04:51
the classic issue which I've spoken about quite a lot at length which I actually specialized in
1:04:56
in my master's level I loved theologically until I realized uh you know its reality is
1:05:02
that the the the attributes of God now this is an interesting question interesting issue every
1:05:08
single classical book of Islamic theology centers around the attrib attributes of God. That is the
1:05:16
defining characteristic of Islamic theology. Nobody or very few people pause to question why.
1:05:27
Clearly the Quran is not coming with the primary function of defining the nuances of the attributes
1:05:35
of God. Right? Nobody can deny that. Clearly the prophet is not making this the core of his
1:05:41
preaching. Actually, it's hardly found. Clearly, the companions themselves and the first generation
1:05:48
didn't make this the core of their identity. Yet, every single school, 12, Shiism included, Zism,
1:05:56
ibalism, Cifism, Asharism, Matism, Mortzism, at least 50% of theology textbooks if not more or a
1:06:05
little bit less, is about the attributing issue. And when I did my PhD and when I went further,
1:06:11
this is when in my own studies, this is when as I said I came across a number of realizations
1:06:16
of them. Our theology was constructed to answer the questions of its time. And it is a problem to
1:06:26
assume that that constructed theology is divine. And it is also a problem to assume we must go back
1:06:34
to that constructed theology to revive the ummah. So one of my biggest projects really
1:06:39
in fact I would say this is my ultimate project in all that I'm doing really is the preservation
1:06:45
of the religion of Islam especially in the western world and amongst the next generation transcending
1:06:51
the petty sectarian divides and the oified traditions of the past while remaining faithful
1:06:58
to the tradition. That's an a key caveat because I am not a fan of what is called progressive Islam.
1:07:04
I think that they've lost the plot. We respect the tradition but we also humanize it. To me that is the key you know difference that between me and many others. The tradition is should not
1:07:15
be discarded unless there is a dire reason to do so. Otherwise if the if it worked you know if it
1:07:22
ain't broke don't fix it. Right? But if it is broke or it's not doing its job or it's causing
1:07:28
sectarianism, there is absolutely no need for two British or American or British and American,
1:07:36
you know, preachers to be having it out over the meaning of God's hand and God's rising and God's
1:07:43
face online or even in private uh unless it's an academic, you know, uh discussion just for,
1:07:49
you know, uh personal sake or whatnot. There's no need to have animosity between two people. And I
1:07:55
say bluntly, this is more a question of semantics and language than it is actual faith. And it is a
1:08:02
problem to categorize another believer based upon the abstract understanding of God's attributes.
1:08:10
Somebody has to preach against this and say, "You're wrong. I don't care if 10,000 scholars
1:08:16
before me did it. Good for them, bad for them. I'm not judging them. right here and now. We need to move beyond this. That's all I'm saying. I mean, can can I um like I I I'm a lay person,
Aqeedah debates necessary?
1:08:27
you know. I I I don't I I don't have an intimate knowledge of of uh of and of you know, I I learn
1:08:36
to be a practicing Muslims. I learn my far and I I try to understand Islam as much as I can.
1:08:43
Um I'm not that interested in schools of Aeda and the debates between the schools
1:08:49
of Arda and you know I sometimes I I dabble in in trying to understand those debates and
1:08:55
um you know it's it's interesting and you know it's it's a great conversation to have sometimes
1:09:00
when you're having you know as you know in East London we have chicken chicken and chips and we have conversations with one another. So, it's a great conversation to have, but uh I'm not
1:09:09
really that invested in in those AKA debates. Is there a deficiency in my sort of appreciation of
1:09:17
Islam? Because I'm not I just don't find that interesting. 30 years ago, I would have said, "Yes, there is a deficiency." Right? The old YQ would have said, "You are missing out and
1:09:28
your iman will never be strong." Right? And you must study one of these schools. And of course,
1:09:33
I would have told you back then, you have to study my school. You can't study the other school. Yeah. Now I say you are upon the fra you are quintessentially and without even recognizing
1:09:46
it preaching and teaching and embodying what Islam is. Islam did not come to confuse you
1:09:55
about the meaning of and the abstract issues of theology. And this is why the grandmothers of the
1:10:04
ummah have more iman than their grandchildren who are debating over the abstract issues
1:10:10
of simple raw iman that transcends these petty arcane differences in the textbooks.
1:10:22
You want to see iman, look at the relationship you have with Allah in your heart and then its
1:10:29
manifestation and how you treat the creation of Allah. That is iman. That is the essence of im.
1:10:36
And you don't need to study any the textbook. You love Allah and you want to worship Allah
1:10:43
and you're genuinely making your in your heart your tongue. You're praying. You're doing and
1:10:48
you're treating the of Allah in a good manner. you reach for those and you don't have to categorize
1:10:54
yourself as anything right and that's why you know one of my teachers in England famously said this
1:10:59
it went viral the people he said once upon a time was used to fortify people's iman now it's the he
1:11:05
said this it's used to destroy people's iman right and it at the time it caused a huge controversy but if you understand the context and you look at the reality as I've said multiple times as
1:11:14
burns right now even today I just logged on to Twitter you know God forbid Allah Forgive all
1:11:21
of us for even doing that. You know, try my best to avoid but you know once in a while we lo even today a British and American having at it about you know the importance of and God actually has.
1:11:36
so petty and sad and they really think they're doing something good and they think this is what
1:11:42
the um needs and they so they're fermenting hatred against a fellow Muslim who prays five times a day
1:11:49
fast from Allah believes in reading the Quran making dua both praying to and they're creating
1:11:55
hatred over some arcane abstract intangible issue that is of no relevance why because of
1:12:02
the tradition so I'm sorry but Somebody has to say at some point in time yes the tradition has become
1:12:10
oified. Yes there are aspects of the tradition that are problematic and this is one of them.
1:12:17
This is not a rejection of the tradition in toto. It is an ask to revive. It is an ask to all I say
1:12:24
be who you are but keep these debates to private rooms. Take all of these guys that are advanced
1:12:30
students and hash it out amongst yourselves. Then when it comes for duh, pray together and
1:12:36
eat your fish and chips or your chicken and chips together. Shake hands together and understand the ummah has bigger issues than the issues of the past. That was that's my point to uh you know and
1:12:46
frankly I'm sorry to say very too few people are speaking like this and to me this is a no-brainer.
1:12:52
This should be the norm and I encourage all the preachers to be bold. I know most of them feel
1:12:58
this way. They come to me all the time. Most of them feel this way, but they're scared about the
1:13:03
backlash. Let me tell you, there will be minimal backlash because, as you yourself just said,
1:13:08
you want to hear this. You already are upon it. The only backlash will come from other fanatics,
1:13:13
and it's time we just sideline them. You are causing division. You are causing hatred over
1:13:18
issues that are of absolutely no relevance whatsoever. So, I believe inshallah, we are
1:13:24
seeing now a wiser and more mature manifestation. And I I think that time will show that these types
1:13:31
of ideas will become the mainstream and the norm. And and maybe it is right to say I mean we we just can't afford to have these debates when Gaza burns. We just can't. We can't. Yeah.
1:13:41
It's it's sad. And like I said and and and it's not just over these issues. It's far more than this. That's why I've been a little bit more bold about my views about so many other issues like
1:13:51
polit. We've had our issues about politics, Islam, all of these issues. We need to stop hating each
1:13:57
other. If we have different ways to revive the um you're not happy with my way, no problem. You go
1:14:03
your way and I'll make dua for you and you make dua for me as well. Simple as that. Stop finding
1:14:09
an easy tangible enemy within and realize the real enemy is the one that's bombing. This really that
1:14:15
and the real enemy is the one that's wanting to ban our religion. The real enemy is the one that shut our masid down. The real enemy is the one he wants us to hate each other. This is the real
1:14:22
enemy. Yeah. So this is my key point here that sectarianism needs to be rethought in modernity.
1:14:30
I think that's really been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for your time today. Pleasure is mine. Until next time.
1:14:42
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