Ep 246. - From Protest to Power: The New Bangladesh with Dilly Hussain
One year after mass student protests shook Bangladesh and captured international attention, questions remain about the direction of the country’s politics and the fate of those who demanded change. In this interview, we speak with journalist and commentator Dilly Hussain to reflect on what has changed, what challenges remain, and what the future might hold for the people of Bangladesh.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation.
Introduction
0:00
We're marking a year since that amazing revolution. Hassina is directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of her own people and that's something which Bangladeshes
0:08
will not forget and they may not forget. This is a brutal regime. This is a regime which kills, murders with impunity without any accountability. So one thing that India cannot undo the lies,
0:18
the disinformation from the highest corridors of power in India to your mainstream pundits. You
0:24
can remove the head of the snake that head will grow back and that's what we're concerned about. There needs to be a zero tolerance to Indian interference in Bangladeshi domestic affairs.
0:33
I'm optimistic about the future of my motherland. It has been 1 year since the cruel government of
0:38
Shikh Hassina of Bangladesh was overthrown by a courageous popular student revote. Many
0:44
students lost their lives as a result of the deliberate shoot tokill policies of the administration. How has Bangladesh fared in this past year? We have journalist Dilly
0:54
Hussein once again back on the show to help us understand the new Bangladesh.
1:03
We're here in Kala Lumpa at the prophetic strategy summit and uh I am here with Dilly Hussein who
1:10
alhamdulillah we spoke a year back now about the revolution that took place in Bangladesh and uh
1:22
fantastic to be on thank you for for coming in again and I know we're we're now in KL in
1:27
Malaysia but um I think it's an important conversation to have because it's a year on so we're marking a year since that really amazing revolution I think you
1:36
know most people at the time were amazed at just how the students had organized indeed
1:42
um so and we had a a terrific conversation it was great feedback from uh our viewers in particular
1:48
viewers in in Bangladesh who thought it was a very fair uh summary of what was taking place
1:53
I mean I we spoke just before Hassina fell uh but even at the time you know I think it
1:58
was a it was a very balanced account of of the different groups and different movements. So, take us back to that point in August last year when Hina fell. Tell us about what culminated
Hasina’s Fall
2:12
in in her um uh in her losing her position and um and what happened in those weeks. Alhamdulillah.
2:23
So basically all kicked off uh last July uh when the quotota system was reintroduced. Yeah. Now the
2:30
quotota system is a uh economic uh employment policy which basically factors in marginalized
2:38
and discriminated uh groups within Bangladesh and to ensure that they have a particular percentage
2:45
or quotota within the civil service. Now as part of this a large significant portion of
2:50
that would be allocated to the descendants and the children of the freedom fighters
2:56
um those who fought in the liberation war against West Pakistan at the time. Now what ended up
3:01
happening and what was the case for many years under Awami League and Shakasina is that this
3:07
particular quot those for the descendants of the freedom fighters was ultimately abused. Yeah. Uh
3:13
it was immensely corrupt and ultimately it was all given away to Awami League loyalists many
3:19
of whom were not descendants of freedom fighters and in multiple police raids and investigations
3:26
false certifications certificates were found uh in the homes of Awami League ministers where
3:33
they were given out fraudulent certificates uh to claim that people were descendants uh or related
3:39
to the freedom fighters when in reality what was actually happening a huge significant proportion
3:44
of these jobs were basically given to Awami League loyalists and that's one of the ways in which
3:49
uh the army league regime kept its control uh within Bangladesh. Now people may be wondering
3:56
what's so special about these jobs. Well in Bangladesh if you land a civil service job
4:01
um you're set for life right uh and if you can claim to be a descendant of the freedom fighters who fought in 71 you're basically looked after uh generation after generation. Now this particular
4:12
quot system was actually repealed. It was actually uh abolished and it was reintroduced last July and
4:20
that is what kicked off the riots um or the protest rather. And what really peaked it was
4:25
when Hassina came on media and accused uh those who were peacefully protesting primarily those
4:31
who from Dhaka University but then he spread it out to other universities in Dhaka including
4:37
private universities like B was that who do you expect us to give these jobs to the Rajakers? Now
4:44
rajakr is a derogatory term used for those who fought and sided with west Pakistan during the
4:51
liberation war and in fact it is a term which for many years under awami league and she hassina has
4:58
basically been used to criminalize people and to silence disscent and that's essentially what it is
5:03
it was a policy which was initially uh repealed then reintroduced last June early July students
5:10
took to the streets basically saying that this is unfair this needs to be reviewed. Uh it needs
5:15
to be either radically reformed or repealed again and there was just a brutal uh reaction from the
5:22
regime, from the police and from other uh law enforcement agencies. Shake Hassina loyalists
US plot?
5:29
argue that her downfall was a result of a US sponsored plot uh to uh to depose her. I mean,
5:38
how how credible, even if there's if there's a a semblance of credibility, is there to that claim?
5:44
I mean, I looked into this uh and and and did so very early on. And what's interesting before
5:51
we get into this is that the same US which Awami League loyalists claim were behind this
5:58
uh rainbow revolution as they call it. Um I don't specifically like that term, but um the same US
6:04
administration that they are claiming wanted uh to overthrow Hessa was the same US administration
6:11
that they're seeking to lobby uh against Muhammad Ununice's interim government. So it doesn't make sense. On the one hand, they claimed that America was behind it, but in the same breath, they're
6:20
also seeking the same American administration to pressure the UNUNIS government. Um I don't
6:25
think there is any truth to it, right? Um quite frankly Bangladesh is seen by the US through the
6:31
eyes of India. So naturally there would have been some concern uh with regards to the stability of
6:37
Bangladesh and how it falls into the broader American interest in the region. But that said
6:43
um Muhammad Eunice Nobel Peace Prize winner who was the kind of interim head of state uh is very
6:49
close to the Clintons. He is very close to the Democrats. There's no denying that. Yeah, but to say that there was an American took place in that revolution is basically taking away any legitimacy
7:01
and agency and accountability from the army league regime. I have I am yet to be convinced of anything uh conclusive or tangible to suggest that uh America was behind it. Even the claims
7:12
that they wanted to they were seeking to basically establish a military base there. uh well one year
7:18
on and there seems to be absolutely no movement no suggestion uh to indicate that that was the case.
7:24
So no I I do not believe that America had a hand in play but that doesn't necessarily mean that
7:29
American intelligence services may not have got a whiff of where this was heading. We know that
7:35
they have uh intelligence assets on the ground in key Muslim majority countries. They might
7:42
have got a whiff of where this was going, but to say that they had a hand behind it or had a leading role behind it, I just don't buy that. And it's it's it's just it's a lazy argument.
Civil servant jobs
8:35
in answer to the first question. You talked about the um civil service jobs and how that
8:40
bred discontentment within the population, but of course um the Hassina government was
8:45
far more brutal as well than just sort of giving out corrupt jobs to its cronies. Um tell me about the uh the house of mirrors uh a Bangladeshi intelligence detention facility where
9:00
the regime disappeared imprisoned and tortured political dissident. Look the regime giving out
9:08
jobs civil service jobs to their loyalists is you know it's the least of the issues with the Hassina
9:16
regime. That's just one of many things. This was a brutal violent regime. A regime which is
9:21
responsible for the deaths of not thousands, tens of thousands of innocent Bangladeshies, political
9:27
dissident, people who protested peacefully. From the Shapla Square massacre of May 2013 to the
9:33
anti-traffic protests of 2019 to other protests are taking place. This is a brutal regime. This is
9:39
a regime which kills, murders, abducts, imprisons with impunity without any accountability. Now a
9:46
god which translates to the house of mirrors was a secret detention center. Um whereby it
9:54
was underground very similar to sedaya prison. Um and the reason why it's called is because uh some
9:59
aspects of that detention center were surrounded by mirrors and these were horrific conditions
10:05
and people were kept there that were assumed dead or missing and they were there for like five six years. You know these were political dissidents, peaceful activists, civil society members,
10:15
um relatives of opposition party and they were kept in horrific conditions assumed to be dead
10:21
or missing for years and similar to when Sadaya was um revealed and exposed after Bashad fell. Uh
10:29
that was kind of Bangladesh, not kind of it was Bangladesh Sadaya moment. Horrific conditions,
10:36
um cold rooms, all people very little food. There was even stories of pregnant women who gave birth
10:43
in these prisons and there were even cases or where mothers and children were kidnapped
10:48
and they were kept the kids were kept away from their mothers and they needed milk and so forth. Horrific stories men, women, young and old, political, non-political. Um the people that
10:59
were kept there in these dungeons um they were from a wide variety of of the political spectrum
11:06
and uh yeah it was it was completely horrific and and similar similar to the scenes of Sadaya
11:11
um we saw Bangladeshies when they found they smashed up the walls and they saw you know
11:19
the evidence of the the dire conditions in which people were were kept there for years and so the Awami League Shik Hassina's party has now been prescribed as a political organization. I mean,
New government
11:29
do you think that's a fair a fair thing? I mean, you know, we've got a political party,
11:35
but obviously we have corrupt elites within them, but it was a mass party and it would have
11:41
had ordinary uh Bangladeshies within the party. I mean, is that a is that a uh the prescription
11:47
as a terrorist organization? Is that sort of a a a fair uh judgment you think on behalf of the new
11:54
government? I personally am not in support uh of of this decision simply because Bangladesh has a
12:01
history of banning political opposition parties. Right? So Awami League they banned Jamaati Islam
12:08
that that prescription has now been lifted. BNP was banned. We're now assuming and we're going
12:13
to discuss this obviously later on. The BNP are expected to win a a landslide election. At least
12:19
that's what many are saying and many analysts are observing. um and and banning political parties is just simply not the way forward quite frankly for the very reasons that you mentioned
12:27
that look within the party and its support structure. You can have ordinary people that are not ideologues. You can have ordinary people who are laborers and and and support the party for
12:36
whatever reasons they are and didn't take part in any of its uh oppressive um policies or violence.
12:42
That said, I would have been more supportive if the Chhatra League was banned, the student wing,
12:49
because it is a student wing that has the blood of tens of thousands on its hands. And
12:55
this is a criminal entity that was involved in corruption, racketeering, murder, rape,
13:03
drug dealing, every crime under the sun. Chhatra League, the student wing of Awami League were
13:08
involved in and they ruled with a reign of terror across Bangladesh. This is a student uh wing, but
13:15
they moved like a political mafia on the ground. Uh extortion, kidnappings, you name it. Jalal Bay,
13:21
they were there's not a crime that they weren't involved in. Now supporters may say well you know
13:26
um BNP's student wing have also done some of these things and and Shibir which is Jamaati
13:32
Islam student wing have also indulged in some of these uh violent acts yeah they may have but
13:38
incomparable jalapai incomparable like you go to Bangladesh to any of the major cities to any of
13:45
the campuses and to any of the local bazars and they will tell you that no student wing of any
13:50
political party was involved in organized crime crime in the way that Chhatraali was and we are talking about murder, we're talking about rape, we're talking about abduction, we're talking about
13:58
extortion, stuff which is quite frankly should not be associated with any political uh wing of a
14:05
party. So I am against the banning of awami league simply because what does this mean? Does this just
14:12
mean that whenever a new ruling party come they'll just ban the opposition party? That's just not the way forward quite frankly. But I would have been more supportive of the Chhatra League and its
14:22
structures and its key figureheads to certainly be arrested, face prison time and potentially
14:28
face prescription cuz they actually did engage in in in terrorism in political violence. Right.
1971 Revolution
14:33
Okay. And has there been like an assessment or a reassessment of the 1971 revolution? Um I mean I
14:41
note that Shina used that Razakar she talked about in the last conversation. you know, those who
14:48
betrayed the revolution and she sort of abused the memory of 1971. Uh there's been a conversation,
14:56
a heated conversation about the place of Sheikh Mojibu Rahman, her father, uh the so-called father
15:02
of the nation. U today it's very openly talked about that he was an autocrat and even a tyrant
15:09
uh within some quarters at least of of Bangladeshi society. In fact, I think his picture was removed
15:15
from banknotes if I'm not mistaken. Um, so is there a is there like a Yeah. How far has there
15:21
been a reassessment of those events of 71? Because until now, you know, if you had even questioned
15:29
uh Majibu Rahman, you were unpatriotic and part of his sort of betrayal movement. For sure. I
15:35
mean look um this the entire discussion around the 1971 liberation war and the events that led up to
15:41
is a very very polarizing uh discussion. Uh it's it's a traumatic discussion for many Bangladeshies
15:48
who experienced uh violence and rape from the West Pakistani army at the time but as well as you know
15:55
other elements that were siding with Pakistan and in all honesty and I say this to you as a
16:00
Bangladeshi or someone of Bangladeshi heritage. I say this to you as someone who puts his dean
16:05
before any type of national or ethnic identity. Yeah. Um that it's not black and white. The
16:13
narrative behind the events of 171 is not black and white. Um but let's assess what the situation
16:18
was and if you allow me just a bit of time to just give like a basic chronology. All right. So
16:23
East Pakistan uh which is basically modern day Bangladesh. um unfortunately for the first 20
16:30
years uh of this uh new Pakistan that was found after partition um faced and experienced really
16:39
unjustifiable levels of uh disparity between how state wealth was distributed, how um the state um
16:51
institutions uh would respond to calamities and emergencies like cyclones and floods and stuff
16:57
like this, you know, the fact that rice would be produced in East Pakistan, taken to West Pakistan
17:03
and sold back to East Pakistan. Simply this was not the type of brotherhood nation that anyone envisaged, right? If you think about it, why was Pakistan found in the first place? It was found
17:12
on the basis of Pakistan and that this would be a two nations essentially one that would be a safe
17:22
haven for Muslims to practice their dean freely. Yeah. And it wasn't that wasn't the case from
17:27
the very onset. Unfortunately, there was a very uh racialized political elite within the Punjab
17:34
um that dominated the military establishment in West Pakistan uh who continued policies of
17:41
uh oppression and discrimination towards their East Ben East Pakistani brothers. Now,
17:46
the breaking point, the straw that broke the camel's back, I believe there was a cyclone in 1968 or 69. M um and it the floods were terrible and the response from the central government in
17:59
West Pakistan was very little and when there was some response uh to that emergency it was
18:04
too little too late and there was a buildup of these events taking you know taking place that led to 1969 1970 then there was the election then there was the election where she mujib won a
18:15
landslide you know he won a landslide but it was rejected by Auban it was rejected by the Islamic
18:21
parties of West Pakist Pakistan. So in in essence had they accepted the results of that election,
18:28
Sheh Mujib would have been the prime minister of both east and west Pakistan and there was absolutely no way west Pakistan was going to allow that. So they put him in prison.
18:36
They re they basically held an election. He won a landslide and they struck him in prison basically
18:42
because they didn't want to accept the decision or the outcome of the election. But let's also not forget India's role in all of this. India's worst nightmare then and now remains a Muslim
18:55
majority Pakistan or country in its eastern and western flank. Militarily this is a nightmare. I
19:00
mean if you just it doesn't take much to imagine what it would look like. You would in the case of an open total war you'd have West Pakistan fighter jets bombing India and then refueling
19:10
in East Pakistan or Bangladesh and bada bin bada boom back and forth back. It's a nightmare. And
19:16
in fact every time India made any kind of gains in occupied Kashmir was during 1971. It was whenever
19:23
uh there was issues and and instability in Pakistan. Uh whenever India lost territory in
19:30
Kashmir, it was in the early formative years of of east and west Pakistan. So there's all these
19:36
factors to consider and there is no denying that there were lines of communication open between Sheh Mujib and Indian intelligence services at the time. To what extent that relationship was
19:48
is yet to be you know we may never know but but to say that there was absolutely no Indian role in um
19:54
you know putting Shakh Muji forward as this father of the of the country and the leader of this new
20:00
liberation movement. you know that was certainly the case but what ends up happening is that you
20:05
have extremes you'll have those who say that the entire thing was an Indian plan from the get-go
20:10
many Pakistani nationalists would say this um but then there's others that would say no India had absolutely no role in the events that led up to 1971 and that in fact it was entirely an organic
20:21
uh movement for liberation uh a cultural movement a cultural revolution against West Pakistani
20:26
hegemonic occupation of Bangladesh and I think the truth is somewhere in the middle And and the truth
20:31
in the middle is that Sheh Mujib won a landslide election. He was a very popular leader and when
20:38
liberation was established in 1971, he was seen as the uh the father of the nation. But very quickly,
20:46
very quickly, I mean within a year, he did in fact become a tyrant and he made Bangladesh into a one party state which led to his assassination uh I think within two years. Um can I ask you about
India’s position
20:58
uh India's position generally towards this last year because of course they've lost out in a very big way huge way uh with Hina's ouster now um uh what how has India responded to uh this last year
21:12
and and you know what is the what's the sort of feeling on the ground in Bangladesh towards India now because of course you know for a while I mean India had this tremendous soft power in in
21:23
Bangladesh and culturally at least it was viewed in a positive light possibly by by great numbers
21:28
of people. So what what is the position of India now in Bangladesh? So the dominant narrative that was shaped by Hassin and the Ywami League were that India that India was not saviors but they
21:38
were the ones who basically assisted Bangladeshies in getting their independence. Yeah. Um India
21:45
basically saw Bangladesh as an extension of itself and in fact uh military dossier and documents and
21:51
internal coms are now coming to surface that actually what many Indian policy makers at the
21:57
time really wanted was to basically annex East Pakistan and basically make it part of uh India.
22:04
Now obviously that didn't take place um but they ensured that their tentacles of influence were
22:10
deeply entrenched within uh the Bangladeshi state and pretty much in every ministry and also with a
22:17
huge raw presence Indian intelligence presence on the ground. India has always seen Bangladesh as a
22:24
vessel right it as an extension of itself. When it seeks to open the dam it will flood it. When
22:29
it extends when it wishes to increase tariff it will do so. And of all the various administrations
22:35
and governments and parties from the from the kind of military leaders that Bangladesh has had
22:41
u from General Zia and others India's favorite party was always Awami League um and in fact
22:48
India shaped the entire narrative um through cultural influences through Bangladeshi Hindus
22:56
um what 1971 meant and particularly what India's role was in the independ dependence to the extent
23:03
that there would be no independence had it not been for India's intervention and that's also
23:09
untrue. Bulk of the fighting against West Pakistan was actually done by Bengalis in East Pakistan and
23:15
basically India intervened pretty much quite late in the game when it was practically done and dusted. That's the truth for the matter from my reading of it and and I'd be interested to see
23:24
if anyone would would correct me because you would think that there would be no liberation or independence without Indian intervention but that's simply not not true. There's also another
23:33
problematic narrative and this is a cultural one which has been ingrained in the minds of many Bangladeshies and has been incorporated within the education curriculum and that is that Bangladesh
23:42
itself is more about Bengali culture which incorporates significant elements of Hindu culture
23:50
and has little to or nothing to do with Islam and Muslims because anything to do with Islam
23:55
and Muslims is associated with West Pakistan. So India has played a key role in popular culture in
24:01
creating narratives in shaping educa educational um uh reforms and curriculums and this was pretty
24:07
much all done via their assets in Bangladesh but primarily via Awami League and Hina. Now I visit
24:15
Bangladesh often um there was a period where I couldn't visit. it wasn't safe for me to visit but alhamdulillah I I I visit often and the sentiments towards India has always been depending on who you
24:27
speak to is that unless you're an ardent ideologue of the Wami League it has always basically been
24:33
that they claim to have helped us claimed that our independence or liberation wouldn't
24:39
have happened without the intervention but quite frankly whatever they did they did for their own behest they did for their own advantage they did for their own geopolitical interests. Um others
24:49
would say that no in fact the main victor from the 71 liberation was not Bangad. She was actually India. India won. India managed to basically split uh Pakistan into two. Its worst political military
25:01
nightmare was to have a Pakistani eastern and western flank and in fact India is the real enemy.
25:08
the hinduta majority India especially now is actually the main problem uh with with Bangladesh
25:14
and how it sees itself and its political future. Um now I would say that India is openly public
25:21
enemy number one without a shadow of a doubt. The amount of Indian flags that have been burnt and
25:26
the Modi placards and the slogans against him. I mean alhamdulillah look we're probably going to
25:32
get into this in terms of what does the elections look like? What does the outcome look like? What does the future look like? Yeah. And it's sad to say that I don't have the optimism that I did when
25:41
I was here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in terms of the conversation we had a year ago, I don't share that
25:46
level of optimism. I mean, there's still things to be optimistic about, but it's unfortunate because
25:52
India has in many ways managed to regain some level of control within key institutions within
25:59
Bangladesh, primarily uh education, culture and media. When you have newspapers like Proam Allah,
26:05
Daily Star uh who basically you know to put it mildly and and and politely you know are
26:12
no different to the Indian media with regards to their takes on domestic Bangladeshi issues. Yes. And played a key role in the criminalization and censorship of political distance from the
26:22
Bangladesh nationalist party to Jamaati Islam and to generally Islamic movements and civil society groups. So there is a deep distrust and hatred for India as we speak. India doesn't help
26:34
itself when their uh ministers, senior ministers come out and refer to Bengali as cockroaches.
26:41
When they speak of Bangladesh as an extension of themselves when they speak of and we're talking about cabinet ministers here at jool, you know these are not like anchors or like activists.
26:51
They're talking about people who are part of the BJP led government coming on media consistently
26:56
talking about Bangladesh and Bengali in in in a very derogatory and dehumanized way. And that
27:01
just further reaffirms what Bangladeshies have believed for some time and that is that India is
27:06
not actually interested in any kind of autonomous Bangladesh who who can decide their political future. Rather they see us as an as a colony of theirs and quite frankly their true colors have
27:16
coming out now and they're throwing all the toys out of the pram. And we saw this consistent and coordinated and vicious and malicious uh fake news propaganda misin misinformation campaign
27:27
where there was a Hindu genocide in the wake of the August the 5th very similar very similar to
27:32
what Assadist did uh when Assad fell that there was there was a genocide uh against the Dus and
27:38
genocide against the Alawites. Yes, there were some sectarian tensions and communal violence, but to say that there was any remote type of genocide uh towards Hindus is quite far and
27:49
quite a lie um and unlable. More so because Hindus enjoy in Bangladesh a level of freedom and a level
27:57
of um you know freedom to practice their religion and access to power that a Muslim in India could
28:04
not dream of. And it's and it's so hypocritical that India would take this position whilst the
28:10
world sees how it treats its Muslim minorities, its Dalith minorities, its Christian minorities,
28:15
its pograms, its bulldozing of mosques, its treatment of Kashmiris that it has the audacity
28:21
to claim such lies. But it did so in such a coordinated way to the extent that it even reached
28:26
Washington. And you had Trump make the statement before the election uh before uh the last election
28:32
before November 2024. He came out and he basically made a statement uh against uh violence against
28:39
Hindus. He basically pared a lie from the Awami League. And we also know that Hassina and her
28:45
son Sajjib have been funding millions of dollars uh to American policy think tanks to basically
28:51
um you know discredit the UNICE government albeit they're not perfect but to you know spread this
28:56
misinformation and to apply pressure. So India at the moment is in a better position than it was
29:02
when we were sat here a year ago. Jalai but one thing that India cannot undo is what Bangladeshi
29:08
saw for 6 to 8 months consistently and that was the lies the disinformation the misinformation
29:15
from the highest corridors of power in India to your mainstream pundits and that's something which
29:21
Bangladeshes will not forget and they may not forgive. We've talked about, you know, politicians and pundits who've used this Hindu genocide trope in order to try to carve out divisions uh within
Trump and Hindutva
29:34
within the um the wider society. I mean, I I think that um there has there's a case also of American
29:41
of Trump administration officials, you know, um who are quite linked to the Hindutva lobby. they
29:47
are um the likes of Sajjie Wazed Joy Hassinas son and Tulsi Gabbard who have spoken about the
29:55
persecution of minorities in the country and the creation of an Islamist caliphate I mean talk to
30:02
Gabbard in particular she seems to be a a voice for that uh for that Henior element so there's so
30:10
there's various uh senior policy makers within the Trump administration that of Indian heritage have
30:17
deep Hinduta backgrounds, right? And Tulsi Gabbad is obviously one um uh I believe is one of them,
30:23
one of the most outspoken uh defenders of Modi the BJP led government and one of the lies which was
30:31
spread and in a very vicious and malicious way was that there was going to be an Islamist takeover. Now what did happen was that when Hassina fell various Islamic groups and movements took to
30:42
the streets and celebrated like any other groups and movements. Yeah. you know they were happy, you know, there was there was a level of freedom that they can now express what they couldn't
30:50
express for the best part of 15 years and that was and that included groups like his and others
30:55
who took to the streets and and other groups that were waving white and black Khalima flags and this was of course taken by the likes of Daily Star and alo and the Indian media then amplified on
31:05
X and we know that um Elon Musk has tweaked the algorithm in such a way that the more polarizing
31:12
uh such news is the more moment momentum and more viral it goes. And it literally reached to the
31:17
White House and the likes of Tulsi Gabbard and others, you know, they spread this lie and there was absolutely no basis for it. There is absolutely no basis as far as I'm aware and
31:27
when I visited straight after the the revolution and in my engagements with the likes of Jamaati, Islam and other Islamic groups and movements on the ground that there was no open or secret plan
31:37
to make Bangladesh an Islamic state. And let's also make something very clear and we discussed this briefly in our last podcast regarded this last year is that the revolution itself no one
31:50
party or ideology can claim it. Yeah. The Islamist or the Islamic groups or Islamists can't claim it.
31:55
The secularists can't claim it. The nationalists can't claim it. It was a joint movement amongst
32:01
students who came from various ideological leanings, right? from you know your nationalist to your maist to your liberal leftist to your Islamic groups and movements and it was a coordinated
32:12
effort by the students of Dhaka University which then spread to other universities which then galvanized the entire country right in the space of 3 weeks no ideology or no party can make any
32:22
claim to that and any accusation or claim that there was going to be an Islamist takeover uh is
32:27
just again laughable and and something that should be categorically rejected and and Muhammad Ununus
Muhammad Yunus
32:32
as a as the prime minister. I mean, how how do you think he's fared in in this last year? I think
32:39
he's had a huge difficult task at hand. Look, I'm not going to make excuses for Muhammad Ununice's
32:45
liberal policies, his over reliance on NOS's, um his his approach to basically kind of treating
32:53
Bangladesh as a charity box. We were hoping that someone of his caliber of his experience of his entrepreneurial veneer and experience that he would you know introduce more radical uh changes
33:04
um considering that this was a revolutionary movement we were hoping of revolutionary policies right but what we kind of saw under UNUNICE was that it was this kind of again this repeat and
33:15
over reliance on western NOS's and western funding and and you know trying to appease
33:20
the US to say that no we're not x y and zed we're not going to be this but that was a given Yeah, but that said, Muhammad Ununas compared to Hassina is incomparable. You know, I don't think
33:31
the ununice himself, this is my genuine feeling, I do not believe that this man is responsible
33:37
directly for ordering the murder of one person. That's Allah knows best, but Hassina beyond any
33:44
reasonable doubt is directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of her own people.
33:50
And that's why the court has begun for crimes against humanity and absent
34:00
if India is seeking any kind of normaly again they should perhaps hand hina back and then we can talk
34:08
about normaly. How dare India talk about any type of you know normalization or a return to what was
34:16
the past whilst you have the very tyrant in which the people mobilize to remove. So I don't think
34:23
there will be any normaly or normalization or return to the past whilst hina remains
34:29
there. Yeah. And one of the things which has been consistent throughout the revolution and and what
34:34
followed thereafter is this kind of um realization that Bangladesh has a political destiny without
34:43
the control of India. Yes, we have to survive with India. India shares a border which surrounds
34:50
Bangladesh by 80 or 90%. Bangladesh has no choice but to coexist in the best possible way with India
34:58
but to act as a colony to act as a vessel that's simply something which Bangladesh I believe would
35:03
not accept the the leoty here the leoty and I'm hoping and I'm and I'm I'm hoping that the new
35:10
uh national citizens party led by the likes of Alamas Abdullah who I met briefly whilst I was in
35:15
Bangladesh that they carry the momentum how many h how that um converts or translates into votes
35:22
when the elections happen uh in the first half of next year might be April very likely I don't know
35:28
but NCP is a studentled movement it's it's the it's the first studentled party in the history
35:34
of Bangladesh which is basically the students against discrimination movement ultimately the students that led uh the revolution against Hassina they formed this party the national
35:44
citizenship party being led by the likes of Sis Alam and Hass Abdullah but back to Ununice Ununice
35:50
has had an impossible task because not easy dealing with internal strife of Awami League
35:57
loyalists still deeply embedded within pretty much every facet of the state. you've got this
36:02
external pressure from India um external pressure of trade uh tariffs and and you know and all kinds
36:10
of issues and given that he's dealing with all of this his lordable attempt at major reforms
36:17
it's particularly to do with electoral reforms whereby there would be a national effort to
36:23
register every single Bangladeshi who's eligible to vote because up until now you don't know who's
36:29
alive who's dead who's vote who's voting for who and it's well known in Bangladesh as well
36:35
as in Pakistan but it's well known in Bangladesh that under the Hassina regime the police would be
36:41
paid to man polling offices this is known and you'd go and vote for your dead relatives you
36:46
all types of fraud taking place widespread across the country and one of the good things and very ludable things which ununice is trying to do and I don't believe he'll be able to execute
36:56
and and implement it before April is to have a national register of Bangladesh voters. Obviously,
37:02
there were other reforms to do with employment uh uh to the judiciary uh and other reforms. I
37:08
think it was six or eight reforms, but the key one was the electoral reforms because quite frankly, we need to know who's eligible to vote and then to incorporate and to create an infrastructure
37:19
whereby the voting system would be done in a fair way. Now, as someone who's a critic of uh or or
37:26
or you know, a skeptic of the democratic system and the entire way in which the Muslim majority
37:33
world seek this particular mechanism for their political destination. That conversation aside,
37:40
I think it needs to be acknowledged that what Ununice attempted to do and is still trying to do
37:45
um is something that is very much needed and I do not believe whichever party comes to power
37:51
very likely Bangladesh Nationalist Party would seek to uh continue these reforms. He wanted
37:57
time to implement these reforms. He basically wanted around 18 18 months to implement these
38:04
reforms. People were concerned that he would take the full five years, right? And keep in
38:10
mind that Muhammad Eunis, he was brought in by the choice of the student leaders who led
38:15
the revolution. He did not put himself forward. He was brought in by the likes of Maham, Nahid Islam,
38:22
and these guys who led the movement. So, and and and not too long ago, the pressure got so bad for him that he was thinking about resigning, right? He he got the cabinet together and he said,
38:31
"Look, I'm I can't do this anymore." but they insisted that he stays in power. So, Ununas has has had a huge challenge uh and a huge task at hand. He's not been able to execute many
38:42
of his reforms. He's attempted it. Um some of it still ongoing. The question now is whether any of
38:48
this will continue when the new ruling party comes to power. So in in in that answer you talked about
Elections
38:55
um the possibility of a BMPled government and also you talked about the prospects of this new student
39:00
movement uh that has been created and and whether it would have electoral weight as it did on the
39:07
street. So there's a lot of lot of moving parts here but elections are going to take place next year and it's from what you gather BMP which is the main opposition party to army league that BMP
39:19
will probably win that election. I mean what's the just just talk me through what we should
39:24
be expecting in these elections and beyond and the prospects by the way of of I should say of
39:30
uh Islamic or very overtly Islamic groups like Jamaati Islami which you know that haven't done
39:36
very well in in previous elections. So let let's let's start with how these various opposition
39:43
parties responded and reacted to the fall of Hassina. To begin with, they were all very
39:50
much supportive of the UNUNIS interim government and were calling for, you know, to give him time
39:56
and space for reform. The BMP changed its tone uh within 3 to 6 months. They realized that uh
40:05
they're at the cusp of taking the country again. Yeah. And that if there was an election the next
40:11
day, there would be there'd be a landslide. And the more time that is given to the UNUNICE interim
40:16
government to implement these reforms, the less chances they will have to get that landslide.
40:23
Right? So if you give the interim government let's say 18 months 24 months or the whole four
40:28
five years which they were never going to allow cuz they'll threaten them with protest and and um uh what do you call it when trade unions go on on strikes or what they call in Bengali and there
40:40
was always these constant threats that were made by BMP directly indirectly there's also you know
40:46
we'll get into this with regards to India's role within the BMP you know there's many that have said that the BMP is already infiltrated really right we had um a gentleman called Salahin Ahmed
40:57
who returned to India, a a senior BMP uh leader who was in India in exile for 9 years. All of a
41:04
sudden he's come back and people are saying that he could potentially uh be an asset of
41:09
India. We know that Miz Fakrul along the general secretary of the party um potentially had line
41:16
of coms open with India as well. We know that Tarik Rahman who currently resides in London
41:22
um could also potentially have line of coms open with India. Now I'm not talking about line of
41:28
coms open with India from the perspective that you know any assuming ruling party would have to with
41:33
their neighbor and their biggest trading partner but from the perspective that certain interests have to be maintained that certain um positions by certain individuals have to be kept those things
41:45
cannot change. So the major concerns there. So BMP initially were for this unitary effort to
41:53
support Ununice and his reforms. But very quickly within 3 to four months they were like calling for
41:59
elections. They were basically coming out by by saying that look let students be students and let politicians run the country. Students should not be running a country. You've done the revolution.
42:08
You've led the people. You've galvanized the people. You're not state makers. You're not policy makers. Um you're not state crafters. you know, it's time for you to go back to university,
42:16
basically. Um, and they knew, and this is true, that the more time they gave the Ununice government, the more chance that the a new party that would form, which is now the
42:26
NCP to go into an alliance potentially with Jamaati Islam and other political parties, there'll be more momentum, which How likely is that? I don't think it's likely now. um simply
42:37
because I don't know how much of this will translate into votes because Jamaati Islam is
42:43
a popular party. There's no denying that they're the third biggest political party in Bangladesh. They enjoy huge levels of support. Yeah. But for some reason that doesn't translate to vos because
42:54
I believe there's this inherent distrust in the psyche of many Bangladeshies towards Jamaati Islam
43:00
which is unfortunate and it dates back to the indoctrination after 71 that Jamaati Islam in
43:06
civil society are fantastic in humanitarian efforts they're fantastic they are the most educated the most well spoken the well-dressed they do so much hidma for the communities up and
43:16
down the country they run schools run schools and hospitals and Islamic banks and everything Yeah,
43:21
but for some reason that doesn't translate to votes and and and and me and seats in parliament.
43:27
So it'll be interesting to see what the 2026 elections uh you know will will deliver. But
43:33
I am not so optimistic in in in Jamaati Islam potentially getting many seats. I'm not even
43:40
that optimistic sadly of the National Citizenship Party, the student left party getting that many seats. I mean I would want them to I would want them to I would want them to you know um become a
43:51
healthy opposition to the BMP le government but I just don't see that happening because there's lots
43:56
of internal plots happening jalabay there's many insiders there that are causing internal strife
44:04
um you know you know people are being killed and kidnapped and and and the whole idea is to create
44:09
this this fear of instability and turmoil which will then justify a strong armed BM
44:15
MP party coming into power. This is textbook stuff we've seen in Bangladesh. We've seen in Pakistan. Um so do I see Jamaati Islam gaining many seats in the next election? I don't. It'd be good if they
44:28
did. Um there's just this age-old issue of popular support doesn't necessarily translate to votes.
44:35
the NCP. One would hope that considering that these were the guys who led the revolution,
44:41
your likes of Hassan Abdullah and Sajis Alam who are like superstars in the country. Um that
44:46
you would hope that they'd have huge support but there's not much optimism there either because the
44:52
BMP through its grassroots bodies have instilled amongst the minds of Bangladeshi that similar to
44:58
the narrative uh what the Awami League would have said is that these are students. you're gonna really put the future of this country on the hands of students who have never run countries,
45:07
never put together policies. Um so a BNP majorityled government is something that
45:15
should be expected. Um the biggest concerns of many Bangladeshi especially those who supported
45:21
and participated in the revolution is that it's just going to be awami league 2.0 uh with you know
45:29
empty rhetoric uh in support of the revolution. We hope and pray that's not the case, but many are
45:34
fearing that this will be the case. So, one final question for you, Venderly. I mean, you you you sounded a slightly less optimistic, a pessimistic note earlier on in the interview where you know,
Optimism?
45:45
and that's quite different to how you were feeling last year where you were far more optimistic about the student revolution. I This is pre Hassina. um uh why like what what's your what's your
45:56
thinking about uh Bangladesh's trajectory in this coming year and beyond? As a Muslim,
46:04
we have to remain optimistic. What I'm saying is that the optimism that I had a year ago is not the
46:10
optimism I have now because of what surfaced and how it's played out. Yeah. Let's make no mistake
46:16
and take anything away with what was achieved uh last July and the and August the 5th. It was a
46:22
huge a huge accomplishment. Yeah. Historic to be able to bring down Hina and the Awami League and
46:31
to send her running via a helicopter to India was something which Bangladeshi could not even
46:37
dream of. Right. And we we should not take that away from those brave Bangladeshi students and
46:43
ordinary people that took to the streets in their tens and hundreds of tens of millions. We're not
46:48
taking that away from them. and and and that was a truly proud moment for me uh as as as a Muslim
46:53
of Bangladeshi heritage and I'm not going to take that away from any Bangladeshi what was achieved
46:58
but you and I both know the nature of cosmetic change yeah you can remove the the head of the
47:05
snake that head will grow back or it'll grow other limbs in different forms and that's what we're
47:10
concerned about we many had hoped that there would be radical reforms with regards to Bangladesh's
47:18
engagement with India that there would be serious accountability and prosecution for those who were
47:25
complicit in Hina's crimes who are still in Bangladesh who may still actually um end up in
47:33
positions of power and influence. There's even an assumption that many Awami you know disillusioned
47:39
amii league supporters are going to join BMP. They're not going to join Jamaat. There's even, you know, theories that are floating about that now that there's no political party or political
47:48
home for the Awami loyalists that they're going to either go to BMP or Jamaati Islam and they're just going to cause, you know, instability and fitna within the various different parties.
47:58
Yeah, I am a tad disappointed with the speed at which Bangladesh uh has moved
48:08
in terms of demarcating the Hina policies with India and this new uh approach to India.
48:16
India and its tentacles of influence is one of the key issues which is holding Bangladesh back from
48:24
success from success and prosperity and that's just a fact and until that matter is resolved
48:30
Bangladesh sadu will continue in this cycle uh this perpetual cycle of over reliance in India
48:36
economically politically and culturally there are people right now within the Bangladeshi interim
48:41
government that supported hass Ina they advanced the Indian agenda and cause through culture and
48:51
popular media. There are newspapers out there that have blood on their hands, editors with blood on
48:56
their hands. There are there are uh politicians, journalists, activists, policy makers still within
49:04
this new Bangladesh and the interim government of of Muhammad Eunas that had engaged with India with
49:09
the raw intelligence services that have blood on their hands. We people wanted to see prosecution. people want to see people held to account. So it that's where the pessimism comes from. Not
49:20
necessarily that Bangladesh cannot attain and achieve great things. It absolutely can and it
49:26
has all the ingredients. A young thriving huge population, a very educated student population.
49:34
It has all the ingredients to be a flourishing country within South Asia and Asia in general.
49:41
it has huge opportunities to look towards alternative um allies whether it's a nuclear pact
49:48
with Pakistan whether it's a military or bilateral military um agreement with China or purchasing or
49:54
or modernizing its army we saw uh how uh Chinese fighter jets performed in the skirmish of India
50:01
and Pakistan there's so many things that could have been explored and should be explored I just
50:07
feel that unless India is significantly removed from the equation. And make no mistake, I'm not
50:12
saying that you isolate yourself from India. You simply cannot survive like that. You have to coexist with India for now. Whilst we're in this current political setup, you have to survive. It's
50:23
your biggest neighbor. But there needs to be a red line. There needs to be a zero tolerance to Indian
50:29
interference in Bangladeshi domestic affairs. And that is what I'm a tad disappointed about. Um I'm
50:35
optimistic about the future of the um we have to be. Yeah. I'm optimistic about the future of my
50:41
motherland. I am disappointed at the pace in which the change has happened and how radical reforms
50:48
which should have reflected a revolutionary movement and a revolutionary interim government did not take place. And I'm very concerned about the continuation of Hassina and Awami
50:58
League policies under the new BMPled government. Inshallah tala um I hope that's not the case. I
51:04
pray that's not the case, but Bangladeshes are fearing that this is basically just going to be awami league 2.0 um with some rhetoric and and some some aesthetics of support for what happened
51:15
for August the 5th. But in essence, the BMP are going to come and they're just going to do the same kind of corrupt policies and the same type of nepotism and potentially even violent crackdown on
51:27
descent. And that's what Bangladesh is endearing and that and that that is what we should be praying and hoping doesn't happen inshallah. Dilly Hussein I think that's really great you
51:35
brought us up to speed with this last year and inshallah tala we pray for uh our brothers and
51:42
sisters in Bangladesh and we hope for better times. Amen. Thank you so much for your time.
51:50
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