Ep 243. - After Gaza: Muslims in a Post American Order with Wadah Khanfar
Our guest this week is Wadah Khanfar, the former director general of Al Jazeera and now head of the Al Sharq Forum, who was recognized by Foreign Policy magazine in 2011 as one of the world's top 100 thinkers. He argues that, despite the bleak period we are experiencing, the world is undergoing a seismic shift in global order. What comes next will shape this new age, and Muslims must stop being mere spectators and begin actively shaping this new system.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
I do believe that the current moment in history we are going through there is a demise of a civilizational cycle which
0:07
is the western centric one and there is a demise of the international world order at the same time and this is
0:13
momentous it's going to create unbelievable change Donald Trump is not a cause of this collapse would you agree but Donald
0:20
Trump is a response to this a manifestation of the collapse itself is manifesting the actual essence of
0:28
what the apart started the state of Israel is about in a way which doesn't
0:33
leave doubt in anyone's mind. Our guest this week is Wad Khan, the former director general of Al Jazzer and
0:39
now head of the Al-Shark Forum who was recognized by foreign policy magazine in 2011 as one of the world's top 100
0:47
thinkers. Wada argues that despite the bleak period we are in, the world is undergoing a seismic shift in global
0:54
order and Muslims must stop being mere spectators and begin actively shaping
1:00
this new system. Post October the 7th, the world looked pretty bleak. This
1:06
current structure will always produce the same problems that we are facing now. But there is another way. The other
1:12
way is integration. They don't understand the concept collective. We have a collective. We are more connected
1:18
than they think
1:25
and welcome back to the thinking Muslim. Thank you for having me. Well, I'm I'm really looking forward to
1:33
today's conversation. Um I think we met a year and a half ago where we spoke about the emerging world order and I
1:40
really want to build upon that great conversation that we had. It was post October the 7th and uh subhan Allah the
1:48
world looked pretty bleak. Um it seems to me based on what we discussed that
1:54
we're not only uh moving into a new era uh an emerging world order is is is
2:01
developing but also it seems like that uh the Trump presidency is uh an
2:08
accelerant to a different type of order. And I want to explore that today. I want to explore whether the US term of
2:15
globalism, this period of globalism is now over. Uh we talked last time about
2:20
how Gaza ex uh expose the hollowess of this international rulesbased order. I
2:26
want to explore how that uh transpires in the real world. Uh but also of course
2:32
uh Netanyahu has has created a schism across uh the region has uh conducted
2:38
multiple wars and bombing campaigns. uh how does that impact uh what we
2:44
understand to be Muslim world autonomy? So there's a lot to have a conversation about today. I've been reading your book
2:51
uh the last spring which I think I I I'm not sure if you would describe it like this but it seems to me that it's an
2:58
expression or an understanding of the s from a political geopolitical perspective. And I've really enjoyed
3:04
some of the connections you're making and that's probably where I want to start today. um 1450 odd years ago um
3:13
Allah subhana wa ta'ala in the most bleakest moment in Mecca where the
3:18
Quraysh were uh subjecting the Muslim community to all sorts of persecution
3:24
Allah subhana wa t'ala sends a message about international politics and world ordering to the prophet sallallahu
Islam and international politics
3:31
alaihi wasallam and the sahaba and you talk about this in your book how does he do that thank you very much so let us start by
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saying the following the 23 years of the uh prophetic uh action, a prophetic
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message and mission uh led to the biggest geopolitical shift
3:57
in the world in history. Mhm. That's how just why
4:03
we will go back and understand why because for 700 years the world had a
4:11
clear world order between the Persians and the Romans. Now the Romans in many
4:17
variations you know but and the Persians also in many empires but basically these
4:22
are the two major powers that control the international system. a bipolar system. A bipolar system which did not allow
4:30
much to evolve. Now this bipolar system was coming to its end. Why? Not because
4:39
the Romans were weak or the Persians were weak but because the civilizational
4:45
cycle came to an end. And this is important to notice and I will link it now with the current
4:51
reality. Now what does it mean? Now any empire it should have moral standards,
4:58
it should have values, principles in order to justify
5:05
its presence and in order to be able to connect the citizens together with the
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sovereignity of the entity itself or or the empire itself. I do believe that the Persian Empire was
5:18
losing all of the above mentioned for many reasons. I don't think we have the time to go through it. And the Roman
5:25
Empire was losing. So the cycle of civilization has has been exhausted
5:31
totally. The values, the ideals, the spiritual
5:37
manifestations in both religious religions from from one side and the
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other actually we're going through a huge crisis. This is number one. Second,
5:47
the order itself between the two states or two entities, two empires
5:54
has consumed the energy of both of them. So we have an end of a civilizational
6:00
cycle and we have a demise of a world order at the same time. And this is
6:07
doesn't happen every day in history. It happens only in few moments in history. And I do believe that the
6:13
current moment in history we are going through resembles that because it there
6:19
is a demise of a civilizational cycle which is the western centric one and
6:25
there is a demise of the international world order at the same time and this is momentous. It's going to create
6:32
unbelievable change in everything we know about ourselves and the world. So
6:37
Allah subhanaa tala when when he revealed the Quran to the prophet it was 610
6:42
uh AD for now if you go to Makkah Makkah is a very very small town it has no
6:50
significance in the world order as far as power is concerned I don't think that the Persians or the Romans did really
6:57
bother about what's happening in Maria because it is on the French very far from they might have heard about it but
7:03
it doesn't really matter for any one of them. But what happened when the prophet wasallam was it was 8 years after the
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beginning of the world order or the world war the international war started 602
7:16
between the Persians and the Romans. They have been fighting in every front
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not only in you know in in Anatolia. They have been fighting in Northern Africa. They have been in Armenia, in
7:28
Anatolia, in Persia, in in in sorry in in the 11th.
7:33
In the year 614, the Persians were able to conquer
7:38
Jerusalem. 614, it means 3 years after revelation, 3 to four years after revelation, they
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conquered Jerusalem. Why that was a significant moment in history? Because Jerusalem was for the Byzantine Empire,
7:53
a holy city and the source of legitimacy. Because the Orthodox church had that
8:00
legitimacy versus the Catholic Roman uh western Roman church in because of
8:07
Jerusalem. So now Jerusalem is overtaken by the Persians. Now the Quran reveals
8:12
to the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam in Medina in Mecca telling him that
8:18
the Romans have been defeated. That's fact you know in the closest of land to you.
8:25
What does that mean? Jerusalem closest to
8:30
at that time and they will be defeat they will be victorious. It means the Romans will be
8:37
victorious in Arabic goes up to nine years.
8:42
So what does that mean to the prophet? It means that the world order as we have
8:48
known it for centuries is collapsing. Now there is a rift there is a crack and
8:54
if there is a crack I need to be prepared because in it means in a few years I need to be able to participate
9:02
in shaping or reshaping or establishing the new world order. Right? So it is a message from heaven to the
9:08
prophet telling him be careful what you are going to do now from now until the end of this conf war between the
9:15
Persians and the Romans is necessary for you to establish the new order and
9:21
therefore it opened his mind that I need to establish a center of power. I cannot
9:26
continue to breach the people of Quraysh forever because they're not listening to me. So this is why the hijra came later
9:33
on and the center of power emerged in Medina and the center of power started
9:39
to correct the course of events in Medina in unification and aggregation of
9:44
power and then after that started to project power against the Romans who were the victorious in the war not the
9:50
Persians which is very amazing you know because normally if you want to attack first you attack the Persians because
9:56
they are weaker. The Persians were defeated in the year 627,
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you know. Yes. And the prophet did not pick up the Persians to be attacked. He picked up
10:07
the conquerors, the victorious, and he hit them in Mut then in Tabuk and then
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in the third one. Three military expeditions were directed against the Bzantian or
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the Roman forces, not against the Persian forces. Why? Because if you
10:28
really need to inherit the new order, you need to immediately
10:33
go against the one who is victorious because he is still recovering. You
10:38
don't want to allow him to recover and be and establish the new order. The defeated is defeated anyway. You can
10:44
later on go and inherit his land. And this what happened. Bersa was easily I mean conquered much more than than than
10:50
the Roman territories in in in Palestine and in Syria. So this is important. So
10:55
the surah or the surah to the ver the verse that you refer to is actually gave
11:01
the guidance the strategic guidance for a geopolitical confrontation that made
11:07
the prophet sallallam aware of his his own strategy to inherit the order when
11:14
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12:02
Turn your compassion into hope. What? This is extraordinary because when
Allah’s message
12:09
we think about the s and when we read the s we almost uh place the s in an accidental logic. Uh the makkan society
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they persecute the prophet sallall alaihi wasallam. He then looks for a power base and then he finds Medina. And
12:23
so a lot of it is is determined by persecution and weakness and and and a
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lack of uh a lack of a base in Mecca. What you're arguing here is that the
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Allah subhana t has said to the prophet sallall alaihi wasallam there is a world order changing. There is a a new uh
12:44
configuration that's around the corner. Now you need to prepare yourself to prepare a power base in order to exploit
12:51
that world order. Am I am I exaggerating the point or is that exactly what you're saying? I have found when I studied the
12:57
prophet life sallallahu alaihi wasallam from a strategic point of view that there is very clear strategy that
13:06
controlled all his expeditions, alliances uh you know uh military
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battles uh during the whole time of Medina right it's not clear for for some people they
13:21
think that the prophetam was sitting in in Medina and the Quray came to attack him then he had to respond to them. But
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the prophet wasallam from the moment he arrived in Medina he start building strategically
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foundations for a polity an entity which he called it um you know
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in order to fill the vacuum that will will soon emerge when Mecca is is
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conquered. So think about it. Why the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam 6
13:49
months after his arrival in Medina he will send a military expedition to
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the coast of the Red Sea in order to interrupt the trade routes of Quraysh
13:59
with Syria. Why? Because the Quran told him earlier
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and this is again go back to the guidance. The Quran guidance was very simp and direct about Qur. There is a
14:12
surah called Quraysh. The surah of Quraysh is telling Muhammad wasallam. Very simple, you know, fact.
14:19
Quraysh has an it means an alliance with the tribes. Okay. Now,
14:28
he's directing his his attention to the treaties that Qur has with the with the
14:34
tribes on the coast. They should worship the lord of this house house
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who fed them out of hunger. So there gave him security. So he told
14:49
him there are two sources of power for Qur. First the alliance that Quresh has
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with the tribes which is the it is like it a series of commercial treaties
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basically. be the house the Kaa
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these are the two pillars of his strength the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
15:13
up to alak the fifth year of hijra he attacked the first pillar which is a
15:18
trade and he attacked the treaties that they have with the tribes the four
15:25
tribes on the coast towards Arabia towards Syria between Mecca and Syria
15:30
the prophet all of them all of them approached them for two treaties. So he established al- Medina which means
15:37
the alliance of Medina versus the alliance of Mecca with the same tribes. Okay. So this is number one and he
15:44
interrupted their trade. Second, after Al Kandak, he also targeted the other
15:52
pillar of his strength, which is the custodianship of Alaba by going to
15:58
Alabia and telling them, listen, I'm coming for Omra. Would you allow me or not? If they allow
16:04
him, then they are recognizing as a power and force, which they don't want to do. If they refuse, it means they are
16:11
going to break one of the most sacred elements of their custodialship of Mecca. Because when they talk over
16:17
Mecca, the promise that we will take care of the Cabba, but the Cabba is free for everyone to come and visit. So if
16:24
you ban him, then the other tribes, they will say, you know, what are you talking about? This is for everyone. How can you
16:30
ban anyone to come for Hajj or Omrah? If you allow him, you are putting him into
16:37
a status where he is a force. Many tribes coming together which has never happened in Arabia. So they were stuck.
16:44
He put them in that position and then he offered them the solution. Not only he
16:49
offered them the dilemma but he also offered them the solution. He said listen why don't we make a treaty. So
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the treaty of was a maneuver by the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam in order to make Quraysh aware of the fact
17:04
that he is now a center of power. He is not just any other entity they can deal
17:10
with not any other tribe or other group of people. So this is strategic. I see the the the
17:16
elements of it. I see the implementation of it. But the source of it is from Quran. Yes. But the implementation it was amazing.
17:23
This is why I love what the prophet did. Yes. in all his alliances. It was very strategic. It was very consistent. It
17:30
has a thread that you can see it always. Yes. So it is not something that we can really just brush as co coincidental or
17:38
something just happened because of reaction that the prophet got angry because Kuresh attacked him and he had to adapt Qures. No, I mean he had a very
17:45
clear strategy. On the other side, Quraysh had no strategy. Quresh had only
17:50
one stupid strategy which is called security attack. M get angry fight and he will drive them
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into the fight. So when people say better happened because Quray attacked the prophet sallallah wasallam in Medina
18:04
but they don't tell you that the prophet wasallam wanted them to come because before that he attacked all their
18:11
caravans going to Syria and that's very smart strategically you ask your enemy to come forward and then
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after that you hit him hard and then bad was a major battle. Why? because it was
18:24
the first manifestation of a new center of power. You know, it's not anymore these
18:30
refugees now escaping from Mecca going to Medina. No, they have a very organized army which was able to project
18:38
power and to win a war. So you have to take them serious. Not only Quraysh,
18:44
every tribe in the surrounding area must take them now from now on serious. This is why after bad he start making all the
18:50
alliances with the tribes who previously were with Quraysh but now they could see that Quresh is going down and Muhammad
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camp peace be upon him is going up. So I rather ally myself with the newcomer and
19:04
the newborn power rather than the decaying old regime. Yes, this is really interesting. I do
Ummah geopolitical?
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want to talk about the contemporary world order in a second because I think that's your point. Your point is that uh
19:17
we can make a a very clear comparison with the moment of the revelation and
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this emerging change of the world order and today's situation where the world
19:27
order is changing. So I want to understand that but just to indulge you a little bit more with the s and and the
19:33
conversation about the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. So I've heard from you before that uh you argue
19:39
that the um the idea of um community or Muslim um was really established uh when
19:47
a power base was established in Medina. So prior to Medina there was no concept of an um so I' I've heard you say that
19:55
um is a geopolitical association that is connected to power. Power is at its
20:02
root. explain that concept of an um because I think a lot of people will find that a little bit alien because um
20:08
for us is a spiritual connection with with Muslims around the world. Why why do you emphasize the geopolitical
20:15
context of um so let us take the roots of the word um how it appeared in our lexicon?
20:21
Yeah. Um the first usage of the concept of um was in the in the charter of
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Medina in the first year or the first few months like of arrival of the prophetam
20:32
to Medina after Hijra right so when he arrived I wanted really I was searching what did he call that entity
20:39
you know some people say the city of Medina the state of Medina the I don't know what is it the prophet didn't use
20:46
the word estate really no he didn't say dah you know or mla or empire. Yes,
20:54
he used the word ummah. He said that the people who have signed this constitution because the
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constitution of Medina which is the charter the people who have signed this constitution are one ummah.
21:07
Okay. So the alliance here is between Muslims and non-Muslims and people who are citizens of the state of Medina
21:14
which he did not call a state. And I think that word um is the actual description of that entity that was
21:21
created by the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam himself. That is important. Later on after he passed away the
21:29
Sahabah did not also call it state you know they call it because they said is a
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simple word. It means the succession of the prophet wasallam. It means we are succeeding what the prophet has
21:40
established. And the concept of um became the DNA of that political entity.
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So it was given that the ummah is that kind of structure formed
21:54
uh with with the guidance of Islam regardless of course of the citizens of the um if they were Muslims or not.
22:00
Because you must remember that in in Syria, in Iraq and in Egypt,
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60 to 70% of the population or more were actually non-Muslims for about two
22:14
centuries of the Islam after Islamic conquest. So it means that Umah was not entirely
22:21
an Islamic. It means Muslims. It's not a spiritual bond amongst Muslims. It is
22:27
beside the fact that it could be a spiritual bond if you like. But the most important element of it, it is actually
22:34
an architecture that describes a sphere of influence, a sphere of of of
22:41
political and uh power and that what we call um you know. So the manifestation
22:47
of that over 13th century was a concept of kilafa right because we have never understood how to
22:54
I mean the concept of nation state is alien to us right because nation state emerged in the west
23:00
and sent back to us but the concept of ummah is is original it's native into our culture
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now when the concept of nation state was sent to us after the first world war
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replacing 13 centuries of consensus political consensus us in a form of or
23:17
the form of the um then our new uh let us call it total loss of
23:26
direction started. Yes. Because we don't know now this new entity this new nation state this new
23:34
state which which we inherited uh what kind of of of of bond should it
23:40
should it have with the rest? Yes. Because if you if you exclude the umah then every nation state becomes
23:46
individually interested in all its national interest which means there is no bond there is no
23:52
coordination there is no geopolitical center it means that there's no national interest uh amongst all of them and this
23:59
is why today we are weak and we will continue to be weak because the architecture itself is wrong and it will
Impact of Ummah
24:05
always produce weakness if I lived in this political architecture that you're calling an
24:10
ummah what would be the impact had to my daily life. The first and the most important thing,
24:15
the citizenship of that architecture is to the meta entity to the um not to the
24:21
to the Imarat to the Imara or to the kingdom that you have been born in.
24:27
Yeah. Because always I gave the example of a great traveler called Im Bata who traveled in the 13th cent 14 beginning
24:34
of 13th c 14th century from Tanja in Morocco up to Maldivs and he crossed
24:41
thousands of miles. He crossed through many entities, political entities and
24:47
most of these political entities, Muslim entities were fighting against and they're not in alliance with each other.
24:54
But he as a human being was not classified as someone who is from the city of Morocco or Tanja or a
25:02
or or a Moroccan guy for example wherever he goes he was treated as a
25:07
citizen of that entity he is residing in. Mhm. So when he arrived in India, the king of India sent him as an ambassador to
25:14
China. When he arrived in Maldivs, he became a judge in Maldivs. When he arrived in other countries, he became a
25:20
whatever it is or you know official position. Why? He was educated. No one
25:26
questioned what is your citizenship. the citizenship as far as you are part of
25:31
this vast meta structure called um it doesn't matter who controls the
25:38
territory you came from which king which amir which sultan it
25:43
doesn't matter so that is number one so it liberated the human being from the hijgemony of the state
25:50
today we are citizens of the state and the state has the upper hand above us and the state has huge power over
25:57
everything we do. The state could deprive us from our citizenship. The state could reduce our privilege, could
26:05
confiscate our wealth. But previously we were not part of that kind of political
26:12
entity. We were part of this great umbrella called the ummah. And no state
26:18
has the power over us. Ibu Kulun a great scholar for example born in Tunisia
26:24
but when he went to Damascus he became the chief judge sorry in in Cairo he
26:30
became the je the chief judge in Cairo and no one said sorry but he's not
26:36
Egyptian you know why because it doesn't matter the other scholars
26:42
because me and you if you ask for example what is your madhab you might say I'm Hanafi Abu Hanifh does it matter
26:49
if he was Persian or an Arab. The fact that he's Persian, for example, does it
26:55
make it for us less convenient to become Hanafis? We never really bother to ask
27:01
this question, but today he's Iranian. You might not follow an Iranian alim.
27:06
Maybe Iranians will follow Iranian. Al Bkari came from Usbakistan, but he's
27:12
not Usbak. I don't even if I did not read about where he was born, I don't really bother where he was born. M
27:18
he's not an Osbach today within the national concept of Usuzbach nationalism. He is a grand muadith for
27:26
every one of us to embrace and to learn from. So we deprived ourselves from a
27:32
reservoir of a huge cultural, philosophical and religious knowledge
27:38
when we start dividing ourselves and then the allegiance of our scholars, the allegiance of our intellectuals, the
27:45
political elite and and human citizens to the state rather than to this vast
Ummah’s history
27:51
meta structure. um what I've um had speakers on my guests on my show and
27:57
I've challenged them and and asked them to talk about the bleak period we're living in at the moment and many of them
28:03
respond by saying well we've always had ups and downs we've had the Mongol invasion we've had uh crusaders we've
28:11
had political problems we've had uh uh lands that have been uh taken away from
28:17
the Muslim and we always come back do you see any tangible difference between the period we're living in now and these
28:26
uh es and flows within the Muslim um of massive there is no comparison really of course let me just go back to
28:33
the examples you mentioned so when we had that structure which I called the ummah in a geopolitical sense
28:41
now let us say the crusaders the crusaders came and they conquered
28:46
territories in in in Syria and in in Palestine. Okay. Within that period they
28:54
we had two major states dividing power in the Islamic world. The Abbases in
28:59
Baghdad and the Fatimites in Cairo. Both of them are fighting against each other. They don't like each other.
29:06
The Fatimites thought at the beginning this is a great opportunity for us to weaken the Abbases. But later on when
29:14
they really saw what the crusaders are intending to do in that region, they
29:19
actually invited the Abbasses or the Saljuk of course Nordinki and after that
29:25
Salah Aub to reside in Kaiu to handle the political system in Kaiu
29:31
and then to establish a unity between two entities that in politics they were
29:38
very diverse. Even in Madhab they were very diverse because the Fatimides were Iselis and the Saljis as you know are
29:46
are are Sunnis and they put everything aside and they united together and they
29:53
attacked us the crusaders and they kicked them out. So the recovery of every crisis including the moguls when
30:00
they conquered Baghdad and they took over and they made a huge genocide in the Islamic world massive genocide like
30:06
millions of people lose their lives during the mogul actually they were defeated not by the which was brought
30:13
down by the Mlukis in in Cairo. So the concept of created a sense of urgency
30:19
when it comes to invaders from outside and a sense of unification and unity
30:25
when it comes to defending the the the the the sphere of of geopolitics called
30:31
Umah. So this is why we did that. Now with the current reality we have nation states
30:37
like for example if something happened in Palestine any state in the region would say okay
30:43
no we are very sad for what's happening we don't like it but what can we do about it I am going to put the interest
30:49
of my state above the interest of everyone else so this kind of fragmentation and partition basically
30:57
you know made this concept of collective security disappear and everyone start to
31:04
Now okay if you are Jordanian or Lebanese or Syrian or Egyptian the first thing you're going to think about is the
31:11
national security of Jordan or Lebanon or Egypt then after that you might think of some
31:17
now this collective concept of security is eroding for the sake of a fragmented
31:25
concept driven by a state and of course the concept of nation state by the way I
31:31
argue is not easily you know describing the current states
31:37
in the Arab world because a concept of nation state if you take a nation let us
31:42
call it let us say Germany Germans nation French are nation and they have
31:47
their own state they call it nation state but if you take the Arab world 23 states you cannot call each one of them
31:54
a nation state because the Arabs are a nation but they are divided into 23 states for example
32:00
so this is an issue Iran is a nation state no doubt about Turkey is a nation state. The Arab world
32:06
is many states but the concept nation state is not really as descriptive as
32:12
it's supposed to be because we have some entities which do not have that kind of nation in a sense. So we are trying to
32:18
manufacture a new identity you know for each one of them which we are failing this of course after 100 years now of a
32:26
new map in the region. I can say the structure inherited to us or forced upon
32:32
us by the French and the British after the first world war has failed and if something after 100 years does
32:39
not operate do you expect another 100 years it will be successful? Mhm. So this fragmentation led to civil wars,
32:46
to sectarian wars, to weakness and to poverty. So I am now easily can say that
32:55
this experiment over one century has failed and we need to imagine and to
33:00
think about something else beyond the fragmentation and the partition. So are
33:07
you saying that the reason why we are different, this period is different to all of those periods, those bleak
Ummah lacking geopolitical power?
33:13
periods in Islamic history, is that the ummah as a concept of power, as a
33:18
concept of geopolitical power is missing within our mindset.
33:24
True. Yeah. We don't not only in the mindset, in the reality, it means for example, we have an attempt
33:30
to establish something the Arab League. It failed dismally. Organization of Islamic conference which became organization of Islamic
33:37
cooperation. It failed dismally. For example, in the dealing with Palestine right now, OIC and the Arab League
33:43
issued many statements, established many committees. Nothing happened and their basically performance was you know very
33:51
weak to a large extent. Why? Because each one of them is calculating the individual interest of
33:58
the state rather than the collective. So there is no collective sense of security at this moment in time. And when you are
34:05
at thinking as a state of partition, you will not go beyond certain boundaries so
34:12
you don't upset the Americans or invoke Israeli wrath on upon you or create a
34:17
troubles for yourself with the western world and therefore you will accept a massacre or a genocide taking place in
34:23
Gaza and you would say what can I do about it. Not only that, you could be even complicit. You could be you you
34:31
could even support the Israelis by trade. You could even uh work with them because you want to protect yourself
34:37
because you would tell me and I heard this from many politicians. Our main target is to protect our state.
34:45
This is the most important. My state is the most important thing. And after that, I will think about
34:51
everyone else. Yeah. So I want to talk about um the contemporary period and we did discuss
Trump accelerating world order?
34:58
uh the shift in the world order but that was pre-Trump. A lot has happened uh
35:04
with Donald Trump's presidency. So just bring us up to date with what you believe is shifting in this
35:10
international system and whether you believe that Donald Trump is is in a way an accelerant is he upending this post
35:18
1945 order that America created. Yeah. So let me come back to this current
35:24
system. Compare it to the system that the prophet wasallam did have the opportunity that he had after the world
35:31
war between the French, the uh Persians and the Romans. Uh so think about the current reality. I
35:39
argue that the current reality has in the same moment
35:44
uh the end of two systems a civilizational cycle and the world order
35:51
right which has okay let me explain this the civilization cycle of the west started
35:56
in 1492 or in whenever everyone could argue whenever but I choose 1492 because
36:01
this is the year when Columbus arrived into uh in in in Latin America and this
36:07
is when they brought uguese were able to go around the Islamic world into Asia
36:12
into India. But from that moment we had many world orders.
36:18
We had the world order driven by the Spanish or the Portuguese the Portuguese first then the Spanish then after that
36:24
the the Dutch then after that the French and then the British and then the
36:29
Americans. But all of the above mentioned was within the same civilizational cycle.
36:36
Yeah. It's all wisdom. Now what was the driving force behind that civilizational
36:43
rise which in my opinion was impressive to a large extent no doubt about it. I mean technology, art, enlightenment,
36:52
everything. The core of that was a combination between Protestant culture
36:58
you know which gave the west capitalism, liberalism and many ideas. the
37:03
Renaissance one renaissance and also the the the the ideas of of of rule of law
37:11
equality uh uh uh you know and and justice and so on.
37:16
So the values right now I do see the current reality in the west
37:22
giving up the two pillars that the western civilization established itself
37:28
on it. M the religious concept and the spiritual concept in my opinion is the worst ever
37:34
in the history from the moment that the Roman Empire embraced Christianity. Right? This is number one. Second, the pillars
37:42
of international law and uh and and and justice and equality have committed a
37:48
lot of mistakes to it become a joke. You know the west is fighting against international law.
37:54
Yeah. ICC, ICG when it comes to Israel, they're fighting against it. the concept of equality and justice and liberty and
38:00
so on and so forth is becoming like a very distant memory. Yeah. So when you when your values evaporate
38:08
it means your civilization itself is is very deeply sick. So this is number one.
38:14
Now the world orders within the civilization were many. So the cycle of a civilization could take 300 years but
38:21
the cycle of the world order could take 30 40 50 years. So we have the first world war after the we have a world
38:29
order after the first world war another world order after that second world order we call it the cold war
38:36
then we have the postcold war. So we have we had three world orders at least
38:42
in the one century only but we had many others even in the other previous centuries. Now both of them are coming
38:49
to an end. The civilizational carrier of the order itself is weakened
38:57
and the order itself is a cracked because there is something called China
39:02
rising and some people say China is rising. China is not a newcomer to the
39:10
scene. China is the oldest power that the world oldest organized power you
39:16
know empire which has 4,000 5,000 years of history and China I mean
39:23
traditionally used to be the center of trade 30% of the world economy before the 17th century was controlled by China
39:30
so China is not something just happened to land from the moon but China is
39:35
reclaiming its position in the world order and we have the Americans who represent the last manifestation of
39:43
the western hegemony are actually very scared to lose their position. Yeah.
39:48
So they are trying to fight whatever possible war against China economically
39:54
and maybe in the future even militarily in order to prevent China from regaining
39:59
its position which the Chinese think that they are entitled to have. So this world order with uniateral
40:08
power the Americans had is actually now going down and a new thing is going to be
40:14
established from now until then. We will have a lot of transformation
40:19
from a civilization point of view. The ideals, the values, the culture, the law, the international law is going to
40:26
be debated, argued about. New ideas should be presented because the previous
40:31
ones are becoming irrelevant from the concept of world bal balance of power
40:36
which means the world order. We have to have a lot to go through because if you think about what America
40:43
is doing now, America is supposed to be the most powerful entity in the world with the most amazing army that the
40:50
humanity has ever seen, the homo sabians ever seen in their life. But when you start using the tactics that you're
40:57
using now, which are desperate measures to keep yourself in in place, you are
41:02
losing a lot. First, the overreach, the American overreach, the American projection of
41:07
power goes beyond certain limits. And when that goes beyond certain limits, it invokes reaction.
41:13
Second, there is tactical decisions taken rather than, you know, strategic
41:18
one. For example, when Mr. Trump says to Europe, you need to spend 5% of your budget on arming yourselves.
41:25
Yes. Okay. So tomorrow after 5 to 10 years when Europe is powerful enough, why they
41:31
should listen to you? America controlled Europe because America is much more powerful than
41:37
Europe and Europe was in need for the American power. But if tomorrow France and Germany has the most amazing army,
41:44
so why they would really follow your instructions when it comes to Russia or it comes to China or anyone else because
41:51
they will feel powerful enough to act based on their national interest rather than on your guidance which has been
41:58
done so far for a long time. So I think the Americans are losing power and
42:03
losing alliances. They are losing Japan which is amazing. I mean Japan has been always like you know after the second
42:09
world war an a great ally but now when you push China to take a position sorry
42:15
Japan to take a position on China in the future if we are going to fight with China are you siding with us or
42:20
against us you are putting them in a position where they are going really to think of other options you are pushing
42:27
all Asian countries to you know feel that you are burden on them. Yeah,
42:33
because Asia has its own logic. Asia knows China for thousands of years. They
42:39
know they lived with China. They know exactly what China is. They know the danger of Chinese manifestation of power
42:46
and they know the benefits of Chinese economic race and they have reached some
42:51
form of agreement with China through between Assan and China and so on and so forth. Now you are forcing countries
42:58
like Philippine and others to take stance on South China Sea. while you are
43:03
trying to push China out of its own sphere of influence. So imagine if you
43:09
tomorrow China start establishing an island opposite to New York
43:16
60 70 kilometers from New York and put its own power there would America would
43:21
will America be tolerant to that? Americans were not tolerant to the Soviet Union to send the missiles to
43:28
Cuba. Yes. And that became put the world on a on a on a fringe of a nuclear war. So
43:35
why you the Americans are coming to my territory to my land and you are
43:41
establishing your power and sending your submarines and establishing your military alliances like Aquas with with
43:48
with with the Australians and the British to to to to contain me. And then
43:55
you expect me to be as polite as saying to you, you are most welcome. I am going to give up my sovereignity for the sake
44:02
of you being happy. Of course, the Chinese have to arm themselves to prepare for war and to
44:07
build their armies and to think that okay, we believe that the Americans are
44:13
going crazy and we have to protect ourselves. So this is why we are heading towards you know this psychological
44:21
concept of me losing power is putting the Americans in a in in in a
44:28
position where they are losing their mind and they are going in a way where they
44:34
elected Trump number one and second they are implementing policies which are not
44:40
at least for many people understood as a mechanism of stabilization. mechanism of
44:46
disturbance, unpredictability and chaos. And this is not a behavior of
44:53
of of a the biggest state in the world. This is a behavior of someone who has gone psychologically destabilized.
45:00
So I find this really interesting. So your your argument is there's a dual collapse. It's not just a collapse of an
Trump manifestation of collapse?
45:06
international system. It's a collapse of a civil civilizational order. And that
45:11
very rarely happens where you have this sort of conflation of two major
45:16
collapses in the world. So in that sense Donald Trump is not a cause of this collapse. Would you agree? But Donald
45:22
Trump is a response to this collapse. A manifestation of the collapse itself. I mean you know I mean imagine one day
45:28
if you think about America think about Roosevelt. Yes. Think about Eisenhower. Think about Kennedy.
45:34
These are I mean people who now distant memory. Yes. Think about the political elite in
45:40
the west. Think about Churchill and the current prime minister. Think about de Gaul and the current president in
45:46
France. I mean, so the political elite right now in the west is the weakest in
45:53
generations. Yeah. So this is another manifestation that not only in America in most of the
45:59
western countries we are seeing deterioration of political strategies of
46:05
grand strategies of ability to understand through statesmen not politicians
46:13
through long-term thinking not immediacy you know these people are tacticians and
46:19
they fail in the tactic. Yeah. How would you interpret the current war against Russia for example
46:25
unless if it is a misjudgment a decay of political elite you know it's
46:30
unbelievable they follow the American foot you know footsteps in a war which
46:36
it has no meaning for the Europe you know so in my opinion yes the
46:41
civilizational decline is actually leading to this current manifestation of
46:47
weakness of leaders and it will lead to much worse it will lead to rise of nationalism, xenophobia. Um they need to
46:55
define a new enemies always you know the west needs an enemy the other you know sometimes the Muslims could be the
47:02
others sometimes others I mean Hispanics or whatever it is. So this
47:07
civilizational cycle will continue to produce crisises not solutions. So if you think that
47:15
tomorrow after Trump everything is going to be peaceful and America will regain I don't think so. Yeah. Whoever is coming after Trump, he
47:22
might do things which definitely going to lead to deterioration of the world
47:28
order until a new world order is established, a new balance of power is born.
MAGA
47:33
Can you talk to uh this trend of make America great again, the America firsters? How does that feed into this
47:40
dual logic, this dual decline? Um uh there is a a tendency now in America to
47:47
resolve from the world. uh there is this tension between the globalists, the
47:52
neoconservatives, the liberal interventionists on the one hand and the MAGA uh individuals, the supporters of
48:01
an America first policy. How does that feed into your into your conversation here? So the hedgeimon the first hedgeimon is
48:08
America and and any hedgeim in the world doesn't want to compromise their post for someone else.
48:14
Yeah. So the other hedgeimon is China is trying to come up. Russia of course which is very far from that but
48:20
eventually Russia is there. So now there the liberals or let us call them the
48:27
Democrats and the Republicans in America. Yeah. They have one goal which is to contain
48:32
China and to stop the rise of China and to sustain the American presence.
48:37
Yeah. The manifestation during Biden administration was very clear towards China because Biden also went
48:44
economically the economic world you know during Biden it was very clear against China. Now Trump came the way Trump is
48:52
manifesting that same strategy is in a very populist way
48:58
which would make America great again make all these big fasts and many but the essence of the policy the essence of
49:04
the strategy is one so in my opinion the state in America has decided its course of events events
49:12
and the way that Trump is doing it because he has his own style but he is not going beyond the strategic
49:19
direction that the state itself has has decided before Trump.
49:26
But the manifestation was much more much more diplomatic maybe.
49:32
Now it is much more blunt. And this is the same happening in Israel by the way by Netanyahu. NATO is manifesting the
49:39
actual essence of what the aparted state of Israel is about in a way which
49:46
doesn't leave doubt in anyone's mind. Yeah. About how evil the aparted state is.
49:54
Before they would have been telling us in a very diplomatic way, we are the only democratic state in an ocean of
50:01
dictatorships. We are the country which is seeking peace and establishing
50:06
economic order in the region for everyone to be happy. All these kind of themes now are distant memories because
50:12
we see bluntly what kind of crimes and genocides Israel could do
50:18
and going unleashed to to hit everyone. So this is a spirit of an age. This is
50:24
what I want to say. Yeah. What we are seeing in America and Isra
50:30
that there is a fear that the because you should remember that Isra.
50:37
It was created after the second world war. The rise of the west as a dominant
50:43
force and the rise of the Americans and it was supported and kept you know
50:48
strong because of the American interference up to the last war with Iran where if the Americans did not
50:54
support it would have been impossible for them to continue with ammunition and with with every with intelligence and so
51:00
on. So if the world order is shifting would you feel comfortable as an Israeli
51:07
to think that you are going to be secure. So also you are losing you know
51:12
compass you are you are going beyond rational okay conventional wisdom let us call it
51:19
if if there used to be you know convention or deceptive mechanisms into much more blunt much more you know
51:30
clear manifestation of power which will invoke you know the the most supporters
51:36
of Israel will feel embarrassed about what Israel is doing. So this is the logic of time, the logic
51:42
of the transformation in the order itself. Yeah, I want to come back to Israel in a second. U but just on the China point
War between China and US
51:48
because just to complete that conversation, um there was a book that did its round did the rounds a few years
51:55
back in in Washington, the fusidities trap by Graeme Allison and uh
52:00
uh I think the the subtitle was is war between China and America inevitable. Do
52:06
you think war between China and America is inevitable? So let us do it do it like this. Now China definitely does not
52:13
want war because China is not imperialist in its nature and they don't think that they need to
52:19
colonize the world as the French and British Americans did in the past. Yeah. So what they need to do they need trade
52:26
routes they have a strategy very clear built uh road and built and so on. Now
52:33
what the Americans are doing, the Americans are trying to interrupt the system by putting tariffs on every
52:39
country and judging everyone based on their relationship with China, trying to reduce the amount of China's production
52:45
to the world and trade with with America. And then much worse than that,
52:50
they playing a very dangerous game on Taiwan. Now for the Americans, Taiwan is a cart.
52:56
Yes. But for the Chinese, Taiwan is something which cannot be negotiated.
53:04
I'm not speaking about Xiinping and the current Chinese administration. I'm talking about every leader that became
53:14
the leader of China since Ma Son until today. They put Taiwan as the most
53:22
important element in their fore. They don't think about it as a negotiating position. Now on Taiwan story, uh the
53:30
Americans are trying their best to they after another increase their
53:36
cooperation with with Taiwan. They have their own interest maybe with this, you know, nanotechnology and so on. It's
53:42
fine. But I don't think that's it. I don't think because of the companies of
53:48
microchips that America is only trying to keep ch Taiwan. I think they are
53:53
using it against China. Yeah. As a negotiating uh leverage or maybe even the future a sort of security
54:01
threat against China. So beside that they are using the islands
54:06
in the in the in Japanese some of the Japanese island. They are putting their
54:12
nuclear submarines. They are putting their weapons in Korea, South Korea. So they are developing an alliance between
54:18
South Korea and and and Japan in order to sit together which is very rare to
54:24
happen because historically they are rivals. So they are doing aquas as you know. So if you are Chinese and you
54:31
think about it where this is heading am I going to keep silent until the end of time. So when I see that the American
54:39
Pacific Command is putting plan after another in case of war what I should do with the
54:45
Chinese nuclear submarines or the Chinese nuclear missiles.
54:51
If a plan like that is put it means when the plan is there the possibility of being implemented is there as well. Now
54:58
in in geopolitics you do not act based on on good
55:06
intention. You always think the worst scenario and the worst case scenario for
55:12
China that they could be attacked and they could be deprived from their nuclear weapons because China nuclear
55:18
weapons is the weakness. I mean they have their nuclear weapons and they put it on it on on on rails that they hide
55:25
inside tunnels but the they could be attacked and destroyed or at least prevented from action. This is why now
55:32
their strategy is to put these nuclear weapons on submarines and the submarines could fire from the
55:38
sea and they could hide and live for months and years under the water and the Chinese and the Americans are sending
55:44
drones to scan the oceans and to find where the submarines are hiding. So all
55:50
of that is happening today. So yes, is are we going to see a war? If
55:57
if I'm going to bit, I would say yes. But what kind of war and how and when?
56:02
That will depend on many factors. The Americans might think that if we keep
56:08
China moving as it is until it is officially armed properly and China by
56:14
the way is arming itself very quick and they're they are excellent in manufacturing their own you know the jet
56:22
fighters and their own ships and so on. uh if am I going to wait for them until
56:27
they are powerful enough that we cannot defeat them or we should do something before that
56:33
that's a scary decision now technically speaking I am worried
56:39
about that it might not happen now or tomorrow or after a few years but the course of event that we see as you said
56:47
this kind of of of of dilemma between me trying to prevent someone else from
56:53
taking over and the thinking that I will be attacked first so I need to prepare myself. It might
57:00
lead one day into something which we don't know what. I mean who would said who would have said I mean everyone in
57:06
you that the world first world order will happen the first world or war will happen. Everyone everyone in you before
57:15
the assassination of the Duke in in in Ferdinand. Yeah.
57:21
Ferdinand. So but that was the moment when the war started but before that
57:26
everyone is preparing for war. If you ask people say yeah war is coming but when and how we don't know. So I'm
57:32
afraid that some moments might come when either through misjudgment
57:40
or over reaction could lead to a confrontation. We were talking about
Israel
57:46
Israel and its interests in the region and and what its core interest is. Um
57:52
I'm struck by the ideas of John Mshimer who's very problematic in in so many ways but John Mshimer talks about
57:59
offensive realism the idea that uh in order to project power you need to have
58:05
complete dominance uh in a region and do you believe that America one of the
58:11
reasons why Israel exists in the Middle East is to be the hedgeman and to
58:17
prevent the rise of a a authentic Muslim Muslim hedgemen in the region.
58:23
So let us put it like this. Now the NATO has been saying to the world that I'm
58:28
going to have a new Middle East. I laugh about this. Why? You know this
58:33
word new Middle East. I heard it year after another by many people.
58:38
Yeah. The West every few days they come up with a new map for the Middle East. New
58:43
Middle East and new I don't know imagination about the Middle East. This Middle East is
58:51
thousands of years old. Yeah. This Middle East is unpredictable. And if Isra thinks that they can
58:58
re-engineer the Middle East the way that they would like it to be engineered, they are mistaken. They are projecting power in a way which
59:06
can never be supported by any mechanism to change reality on the grounds. Why? Because what the new order let us call
59:14
it like that that the Israelis will establish in the region is offering what values if you are going to have a order at
59:20
least you have to offer people something you are offering people partition civil wars confrontation and weakening them.
59:28
Israel has an existential fear you know and they think every actor in the region
59:34
every state in the region if it is not today it might be tomorrow or after 10 years might pose a threat.
59:42
So what is the right strategy in this case? Make this region busy in small
59:47
wars amongst each other fragmentation and partition
59:52
and make them less powerful than you. you must be much more powerful than all
59:58
of them combined and poorer than you. So this is why they needed a monopoly on
1:00:04
nuclear, right? Why you need a monopoly on nuclear power? Simply because in the mindset of
1:00:11
a general fighting a war from Israel, okay, Iran has missiles, Turkey has
1:00:17
drones, but I have nuclear weapon. If the worst come to worse and I'm going to
1:00:22
confront you know many actors in the region and I'm going to lose I will
1:00:28
rather threaten using the nuclear weapon or I will lose tactical or even strategic nuclear power. In this case,
1:00:35
you have already gained an edge above others. You feel more secure. If someone
1:00:40
like Iran or anyone, it doesn't matter by the way, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia,
1:00:46
Egypt, anyone decides to go into a program of nuclear enrichment,
1:00:51
they will be targeted by the Israelis because Israel has to keep the monopoly over nuclear in order to feel secure.
1:00:57
Yeah. So what we are in front of what now? We are in front of country is not only
1:01:03
genociding the Palestinians and ethnically cleansing them but also infringing on everyone's sovereignity in
1:01:10
the region. So I'm attacking Iran not because Iran supported Palestine because Iran is trying to enrich uranium. So now
1:01:19
it is not about Palestine. It's about Iran and Iran future.
1:01:24
I am attacking Syria not because Syria today is doing anything against the Israelis. Actually, the leaders of Syria
1:01:31
many times said that we are not going to be a threat against Israel or a source of of of a threat against Israel.
1:01:38
But the Israelis would like to see Syria dismantled and Syria fragmented. Why?
1:01:44
Because they don't think about the current leadership. They think about 10, 15, 20 years to come and Syria needs to
1:01:49
be weakened further. They think about Turkey and the power of Turkey. So, I need to establish for them an issue
1:01:55
called the Kurdish problem in northern Syria. So it could weaken the state of Turkey. I think of Pakistan which has
1:02:02
another deterrence called the nuclear weapon and that should be also in the
1:02:07
radar of the Israeli action in the future. So Israel is going to be a
1:02:12
problem for every state in the region even the states who signed agreements with them. So Israel is turning itself
1:02:18
from being an enemy in the region because of the Palestinian issue and whatever they're doing against
1:02:24
Palestinians into an enemy because of their threat against the national
1:02:30
security of individual states in the region. So that is what Netanyahu basically has
1:02:36
done. In my opinion, this will trigger another reaction from other states the
1:02:42
next few years. We have to monitor how this region is going to react to this Israeli hedgemony because no one is
1:02:48
going to accept it. You know, even if some people sign a treaties called Abrahamic Accords and all this, this is
1:02:54
going to be the surface of it. But deep down the state of Israel, the Zionist
1:03:01
entity has created in the region a rift that cannot be redeemed by rhetoric or
1:03:09
by Nobel Prize or by Abrahamic Accords or by magnificent press conferences. This is much more deep. What happened in
1:03:16
Gaza and happened by the Israelis against everyone else in the region is a turning point. I don't think it is a
1:03:23
moment where we can see likely. It is very significant and very strategic.
1:03:28
So let's circle back to where we started. Uh we have a seismic shift
How to prepare for power?
1:03:34
coming in the world order. We have a regional hedgeman or at least a a
1:03:39
hedgeim a country that wants to be a regional hedgeman as in Israel uh that is now um without any cover. It is now
1:03:47
engaging in naked power grabs in the Middle East and fragmenting uh these
1:03:52
countries. You said it earlier on that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam was preparing for umah power preparing
1:03:59
for umatic power let's call it um how do we today prepare for that power
1:04:05
so there are three things the prophet sallallam said did which I think still valid for us because I do always see
1:04:11
the s is not history only it's not a series of historical
1:04:18
sequences the s is an elevated reality in order for you and me to to look at it
1:04:24
as a model and this is important it happened in history but it is it is a
1:04:31
role model that's important so now what the prophetam did there are three steps which I think every one should
1:04:39
planning for any strategy should take into consideration number one clarity of vision
1:04:45
kalas the prophetam understood his mission is he is a prophet and therefore There was
1:04:53
no compromise on the on that mission. The the the the
1:04:59
Quraysh tried to make a lot of compromises, but he refused.
1:05:04
Finished. I'm not going to worship what you worship. You will not worship what I worship. There is no way that a
1:05:11
compromise in vision could happen. So you need to have that. And that vision should sink deep down in
1:05:17
everyone's heart to an extent that it is given. It is your DNA. it cannot be
1:05:22
replaced. It cannot be you know declining. So the second one after that he moved into something else where he
1:05:29
established strategic direction. So he told the his companions my strategic
1:05:35
direction I'm not going to eradicate my enemies. So you know so
1:05:42
this is why for example when the angel asked him should I destroy the people of Quray he said no because in the future
1:05:48
some of their offspring will come out and worship God. So basically his concept of change was not elimination
1:05:56
was not genocidal you know he fought against it actually he refused to kill the people of Quraysh
1:06:02
when he conquered Quresh so strategically he put some mindset for his followers where they should follow
1:06:09
in order to change he introduced instead of the concept of conflict he introduced
1:06:14
a concept of tadaf tadaf it means I will
1:06:21
expand in the vacuum and I will push my interest and the collective interest forward without
1:06:28
elimination and without eradication. This is why the conquest the fat the word fat is not incubation never been
1:06:35
incubation. When you conquered Mecca supposedly you bring alien uh your guys
1:06:41
to rule Mecca but you you you stole the leadership of Mecca to run the affairs of Mecca. So previously they just a few
1:06:48
days ago they were enemies but today now they are converting and they are becoming the rulers of themselves.
1:06:54
When we the Muslims conquered Syria and Iraq and the rest of the and Egypt and
1:06:59
so on we did not install in these countries you know people coming from no
1:07:05
we gave people the power and that was important for for for the concept of concuss. So that is very strategic
1:07:12
direction. This is one principle but I think they have I have 10 points which I published in my book about what are the
1:07:17
strategic you know guidelines that the prophet put in converting the vision into the third
1:07:24
level and the third level is the imagination of the future. M you need to tell the people how the
1:07:30
world will look like if you follow the direction because one of the problems of
1:07:37
a lot of great you know thinkers and leaders they think they criticize they
1:07:42
analyze they contextualize but they don't describe the future once you describe the future and you
1:07:48
describe it not in a theoretical way but you tell the people I will guide you through so you may g a gain one two
1:07:58
Yeah. And that the prophet wasallam was very clear in his discourse. So while he is building his his executing his strategy,
1:08:05
he is conceptually giving the people of the imagination of how the future will
1:08:10
look like. Yeah. And that happened. So think about our reality. Now in my opinion the first
1:08:17
strategy which I argue is the Islamic world especially this region that in the center should start thinking instead of
1:08:25
partition should start thinking of aggregating power should start thinking
1:08:30
of not necessarily unity but at least
1:08:37
aggregating the power in a sense of getting states and entities to work
1:08:43
together like a European Union European Union Assan is a great example as well. Different mechanism but it's
1:08:50
also beautiful. So these kind of things I I'm not arguing that we need to destroy nation states in the Arab world
1:08:57
or the Islamic world and eliminate them. I'm arguing that we need to bring the
1:09:03
cooperation into a strategic level where economically infrastructure human uh
1:09:10
interaction uh is going to be much more much more open and that will create trigger a new
1:09:17
course of event because from my reading in history there are two trends in history that affected the 13th century
1:09:24
of Islamic power. Yeah, the trend of partition and and and fragmentation
1:09:31
always leads to civil wars and always leads to weakness and poverty. And
1:09:36
another trend of unification leads to power and leads to you know sufficient
1:09:45
dignified life for for citizens. Uh and I'm not speaking about unity. I'm speaking about the path to unity. Once
1:09:51
you start acting, thinking, filtering your behavior based on the concept that I want people to come to me, I don't
1:09:58
want people to to fight against each other, then sectarianism will decline immediately because it contradicts this
1:10:05
strategy. Civil wars and the tribal wars will decline because it contradicts the
1:10:10
strategy. But if the elite is narrow-minded and they see the small
1:10:15
fights as a grand ones, then fragmentation is going to be the way forward, which means weakness, which
Elites
1:10:22
means boverty as well. Isn't the real problem though those elites um you know to to be able to pull
1:10:28
sovereignty together to create an Asan style of of uh of union or a European
1:10:33
Union, you need to have the buying of these elites. But these elites are deeply entrenched in their divisions.
1:10:39
They're deeply entrenched in the nation states. Uh they follow the American line in a way by uh pursuing a a policy of of
1:10:48
uh of conflict and fragmentation. Uh isn't there a problem with this idea
1:10:54
with this blueprint as long as these elites remain as they are? This is why we need not to trust the
1:11:02
elite political elite on the future. really I think the future is much more important for us to give politicians the
1:11:08
upper hand in it. What we should do the forces of the society like intellectuals, the intelligencia, the
1:11:15
the the the civil society groups uh people who are uh active in in in the in
1:11:23
various levels of of social and cultural and political uh you know communities.
1:11:30
They should start imagining that kind of future and start putting ideas. Why? These are substate actors
1:11:36
because a moment will come when we are running out of option. Yeah.
1:11:41
But a new alternative and then if we are ready, we put the new alternative on the table. Yeah. But if the moment comes and we are
1:11:49
not ready for it, we don't have the concept. The only concept we have is division then eventually we recreate our
1:11:56
troubles and regenerate a new cycle of weakness.
1:12:01
So what I am arguing right now, think about the European Union. You spoke about division. There is no continent in
1:12:08
the world that was more divided than Europe. They were the source of every international war the humanity has ever
1:12:15
known. Yeah, they have killed each other. Millions of people died because of the wars. Who
1:12:20
would have thought in 1942 for example that a day will come when the Germans and the French could live wherever they
1:12:26
like in both countries and enjoy you know transportation and economy and same
1:12:31
currency and so on and so forth. But a moment in history came when there was need for a new paradigm shift and an
1:12:40
elite some people Marshall agreement Marshall plan and many others introduce
1:12:46
a new concept okay and then they embrace it come to again these countries are very diverse
1:12:54
I mean you have Sing Kapor which is the most rich in this region I mean but small tiny doesn't have the muscles to
1:13:00
defend itself and you have on the other inside Indonesia of 200 million and a huge
1:13:07
entity and so on and so forth and you know very little I mean you can't say that they are equal to each other in
1:13:13
size or in weight or even in interest but a moment came in history where there
1:13:19
was a need for people to come together because of the cold war because of many other issues in the past and then people
1:13:26
came together and they found it extremely useful because they can trade and they can secure themselves as well
1:13:32
and resolve conflicts. Myanmar was a major issue for example asan now is trying to resolve the conflict in
1:13:38
Myanmar and then now they find themselves in need for each other more because of China. Why? Because the rise
1:13:46
of China definitely it's a great opportunity economically but also is a greater threat for as Asian countries.
1:13:53
Yeah. So if you are Singapore and you see China rising would you feel very secure
1:14:00
alone? No, because you love China, but you love China to be, you know,
1:14:06
moderate, not huge. Now, but if I am part of an Asan, I feel at least more confident because I
1:14:13
have with me an alliance of states who will be establishing consensus on
1:14:20
certain matters. If there is a confrontation in South China Sea, instead of individual states standing
1:14:27
against China, there is an Asan kind of of thinking collectively to address this
1:14:33
matter and to negotiate with China how to resolve it. So it became useful for
1:14:39
everyone. What I'm saying in the in the in our region for example, right now we are not
1:14:44
going through any of the above mentioned phases. So we are still in the fragmentation phase, in the fighting
1:14:51
against each other phase, in the sectarian confrontation phase, but slowly we will discover that all this
1:14:56
will lead us to destruction and weakness and we need a new paradigm shift. Maybe
1:15:02
not the current political elite, maybe a new political elite that might emerge. M so when we are ready and put proposals
1:15:08
forward and say this is how economy could work collectively. This is how our security cooperation could secure the
1:15:15
region. This is how transportation of the humans and and and goods could
Substate actors
1:15:20
establish a new reality above sectarianism and tribalism then yes that
1:15:26
plan becomes uh relevant to that moment. Um I'm struggling to understand one thing. I mean, ASEAN, European Union,
1:15:34
these are state projects. Uh the state is at the center of of seeding power uh
1:15:40
to these organizations. You said something quite profound, I think earlier on where you said that if we
1:15:45
can't if the elites are not going to shift then uh substate actors get invol
1:15:51
involved in this uh unification, you didn't use the word unification uh aggregation of power. H how does that
1:15:58
look? How do substate actors uh cross borders and connect with one another in
1:16:04
in the Muslim world? So let us say there is a lot of intellectual discussion should happen now right now simply.
1:16:10
Yeah. I do believe that the concept of nation state as I describe it has created a lot
1:16:16
of uh irrelevance to our history. Yeah. In fact, the nation state in the
1:16:22
region in our Middle East region for example and most of the Islamic countries what was basically a departure
1:16:29
from the normal progress of course of events for example when a state like Turkey is
1:16:36
born it did not inherit the Ottoman Empire while for take take Britain Britain lost
1:16:43
99% of its territories when the empire collapsed but Britain continues to be Britain and
1:16:48
continues to be proud of its history and legacy. They didn't say no, the bus was not us.
1:16:54
France is a France. Germany is Germany. But if you take Turkey now in the year
1:17:01
1924, the new Turkish Republic said, "Okay, this Ottoman occupation of our land ended and now we are a newborn." So
1:17:09
now what does that mean? That geopolitically there is no consistency in what you have. You don't inherit a
1:17:16
memory accumulative spirit that has been in in making for centuries
1:17:23
and that you need to start a fresh start which will lead eventually to a lot of complications. You will learn later on
1:17:29
to go to the same principles but after decades of of experiment
1:17:35
in the Arab world we have never had this experience of the state in in the current state modern state in the past.
1:17:43
So we are trying to learn now and I think all of us have realized that if the result of this structure is chaos,
1:17:50
civil wars, confrontations, lack of resources, I mean it is difficult to
1:17:56
maintain in the future or to repeat what I'm speaking about the elite. We need to start challenging this concept
1:18:03
of you know separation. We start thinking about integration. We
1:18:08
start to think about economic for example why not our economists have conferences from across the region.
1:18:15
Uhhuh. Okay. So this is what the practice economists must sit together and think about it. Educationalists must sit and
1:18:21
think how can we have curriculums that could address the collective rather than
1:18:26
the individual interest of the states. the students unions for example the
1:18:33
professional unions should start communicate establish the virtual umah
1:18:38
if you cannot establish it in a geopolitical sense explain this virtual um idea because I think it's fascinating
Virtual Ummah
1:18:43
so the virtual um concept is what real the real ummah is basically this kind of open space where the um is
1:18:50
interacting and geopolitically they are aware of their national interest right now that needs political elite the
1:18:58
political is busy defending the boundaries of the uh polities and
1:19:04
entities that they are dealing with. Now what about the rest of the communities?
1:19:09
What about the professionals, the doctors, the engineers, the students,
1:19:14
the the scholars, the the scientists, they are at large
1:19:20
and they could start establishing layers of cooperation. So I would like to see
1:19:26
scientists sitting together having conferences and meetings and networking amongst each other
1:19:31
for uh for new projects and ideas and the same for every sector in the society. So we elevate our identity from
1:19:40
belonging to the you know narrow the narrowness of nationalism or the
1:19:46
narrowness of belonging to a state into a wider bigger network with a purpose of
1:19:52
empowering the the the ummah in a sense. So this is how we prepare for the future because
1:20:00
even if I tomorrow or you become a president of a state most likely we will again repeat the same sense because even
1:20:07
our population has been accustomed to the concept that we are proud of our entity and we don't want to sacrifice
1:20:14
sovereignity for the sake of others. Do you think there is an appetite for this level of transnational connection
1:20:21
between the ummah? There is an urgent need that needs to be expressed in a form of
1:20:29
appetite. The appetite will follow. It means so far most of us know that our
1:20:35
reality is bad. We are weak. We are divided. We don't know what to do. We don't know about the future. We are hopeless and so on. A lot
1:20:42
of us in the you know desperate generations now are emerging in the region. They don't know exactly they are
1:20:47
not promised neither prosperity nor political freedom. Okay. So the answer
1:20:52
is what we have to ask ourselves speak to them and tell them listen this
1:20:59
current structure will always produce the same you know uh problems that you
1:21:05
are facing now. But there is another way. The other way is integration. The
1:21:10
other way is aggregation. The other way of sitting together. So could we start now thinking about it? So that becomes
1:21:18
because I think we went through brainwashing during the last one century. They convinced us
1:21:24
about a structure. I remember what uh Mr. Churchill Churchill of course is one of the great architects of this current
1:21:31
reality because you know the Middle East Sykes Piku and after that Churchill was very important factor in this. Churchill
1:21:38
said tact is to send someone to hell and make him look up to the journey you
1:21:46
know. So I think what they did they sent us to hell and they made us enjoy it and think wow we gained independence we have
1:21:54
magnificent flag we have lovely sovereignity but technically speaking we
1:21:59
have much more miserable time right now than any other moment in the last century. So definitely there is a
1:22:05
problem. So we need that kind of thinking. I'm not against people loving their land, associating themselves with
1:22:13
their countries. It's beautiful. Why not? If you are Jordanian or Palestinian or Saudi or Imar, whatever you should be
1:22:19
proud of. Okay, fine. You have your culture. But that doesn't mean that this should prevent you from thinking of
1:22:27
integration in economic terms, in social sense, in opening the borders for people
1:22:33
to trans to to to move in. in establishing infrastructure that link us
1:22:39
together. I would like to see trains moving from Istanbul straight to
1:22:45
Damascus. From Damascus going to to up to Morocco even or to the Oman. Why not
1:22:51
encourage people to have cheaper flights so they can travel? Encourage them to live wherever they like. Encourage the
1:22:57
universities to grant people from across the region the possibility to to educate
1:23:02
themselves. This kind of infrastructure will create will trigger a new process
1:23:08
and then we will all benefit from it. Then if you are Kurdish, you don't need to insist on having a
1:23:15
Kurdish state. If everyone has a nation state, the Kurds say, "Okay, we need our own state." But if you are living in
1:23:22
this vast vast sphere of interaction, yeah,
1:23:27
and you are enjoying the benefits like everyone else without boundaries, there
1:23:32
is no reason for the Amaz
1:23:39
thinking of national terms. They will think of collective terms while they enjoy the cultural specificity and
1:23:46
variations as a beautiful cultural diversity rather than converting that
1:23:52
into a political uh disintegration. Well, I have two final questions for
Gaza changed Ummah?
1:23:57
you. um uh with all that you've said um the appetite for connection beyond uh
1:24:06
your national boundaries has Gaza uh become a catalyst for that? Do you think
1:24:11
Gaza has changed the Muslim um I think if we are going after years to
1:24:17
come from now to think about what happened in Gaza, we will definitely use it as the moment of a transformation
1:24:23
for the Islamic world because now you know you should unfortunately the west do not understand
1:24:31
the Islamic world. Why the west paradigm of thinking is based of individualism? Yes,
1:24:36
our software is different totally. So they don't understand it. do not understand China as well and most of the east I mean for the
1:24:43
western mind this is too complicated to understand they sometimes misunderstand
1:24:49
or mistake uh they mistake uh silence
1:24:54
for uh acceptance uh which is not the true uh our um
1:25:01
sometimes keep silent our nation keep silent but the manifestation of reaction
1:25:07
might be late but it's going to be very powerful We have seen this everywhere. You know,
1:25:12
they mistake the fact that we have leaders who try to, you know, compromise
1:25:20
for the sake of their own uh uh for the for for their own comfort or their own
1:25:26
legitimacy with the west with the fact that the these leaders do not represent
1:25:31
the will of the nations, you know. So they will be surprised and always they are surprised. They are why they hate
1:25:38
us, why they go against us, why they did this to us. They don't understand three
1:25:44
things in us. They don't understand first the concept of collective. We have a collective. We are more
1:25:50
connected than they think. Yeah. Even if we are divided for the last century, but still we feel the pain of
1:25:57
the people of Gaza wherever they are. As if they are next door to us, as if they are our family members. This is one. So
1:26:04
the collective is extremely powerful. The second they don't understand the history. This history is amazing.
1:26:11
You know, I always remember the story of Baghdad because I was a reporter when I I reported the war in Baghdad in Iraq in
1:26:18
the year 2003 and then the general asked me a question. He said, "Why
1:26:25
are they fighting against us? We came here to get rid of Saddam
1:26:31
Hussein and establish democracy and establish for them prosperity. I said
1:26:36
they fight against you because you are occupation and there is something called dignity and there is history. This Baghdad was
1:26:43
occupied by the Moguls and we know how that is painful in our history. We will
1:26:49
no one will accept invaders even if they promise him heaven on earth. He said I
1:26:55
acknowledge what you say but I cannot understand it. And I think he was honest. He he from a western
1:27:01
perspective, I don't understand. It's it's a transaction. I'm getting you money. You need to consider your
1:27:07
sovereignity. What's the problem in that? It's a deal. It's a property. Like what Trump spoke about Gaza. So they
1:27:13
don't understand the historical meaning of things. You know the third element,
1:27:19
spirituality. I think this region is very spiritual. The whole east in general, we are entrenched in
1:27:25
spirituality as well. So we have this feeling that okay sacrifice is worth it
1:27:31
because there's a here as well. There is an element goes beyond material
1:27:38
objectivism. There is an element that goes beyond calculations.
1:27:44
Spirituality is important. So this a triangle explain to me and to you what
1:27:50
does it mean to be part of this this psychology in this region. But the Americans cannot understand it. This is
1:27:57
why they fail always in understanding or predicting or forecasting what's going
1:28:02
to happen and they are surprised although the signs are very clear. But they are always engulfed in the
1:28:09
noise not in the signs. Can you comment on the role of western Muslims in this uh grand plan that you
Western Muslims role
1:28:17
have that we should all be uh uh working towards? Um, often we see ourselves as
1:28:24
probably more important uh in some in some respects uh probably certainly
1:28:29
incorrectly than those in the Muslim world. Uh but western Muslims do have resources, they have expertise, they
1:28:35
have knowledge, uh they have probably more of ability to network across borders sometimes than those who are
1:28:42
stuck uh under authoritarian governments and authoritarian regimes. How do western Muslims in particular American
1:28:49
Muslims who are in this core of this uh empire, how do they help the Muslim
1:28:54
Ummah? So I do believe that the key statement or the key concept or the key strategy
1:29:01
that the Muslims in the west in particular should embrace is alliances. Right?
1:29:06
I think they should never look as if they are isolated minorities trying to
1:29:12
defend their rights only. Mhm. They need to extend their hand to everyone who defend values that we share
1:29:19
together. Values of justice, of equality, of environment, of anything that makes
1:29:24
sense within the global scale. The fact that the western civilization right now
1:29:29
is losing momentum. There is a new there is a new generation of people emerging
1:29:35
trying to think about alternatives. The western approach to economy which is
1:29:41
capitalism has led us to the current huge you know crisis between the rich
1:29:46
and the poor. Yeah. So we we have the values of social justice. We need to share in that global
1:29:53
debate and to become part of alliances to correct it. So if you are a Muslim,
1:29:59
you need to work with whoever is sharing your values regardless of his religion or ethnicity and then you are part of a
1:30:06
global alliance. And I think Muslims has a lot to offer because what we have
1:30:12
failed to do to be honest with each other. We failed to elevate our
1:30:19
principles of faith or our religious, you know, narrative from uh the the the
1:30:30
uh narrow uh ritualistic uh religious
1:30:36
discourse into a global vast human interest.
1:30:41
Yeah. And I think the Christianity did that through the Protestants and they were
1:30:47
able to emancipate certain kind of principles into a much bigger structure
1:30:52
called globalism and later on led to globalism and all of us embrace it without saying it is Christian for
1:30:58
example. Muslims need to elevate the principles of economic understanding,
1:31:04
political understanding, you know, into a much bigger scale where everyone feels comfortable to join
1:31:12
because it is value centered rather than religiously expressed or religiously uh
1:31:18
we know it is coming from our religion inspired by our religion but it it addresses everyone
1:31:24
and this is not rare in our history. This is what happened now. You told me about globalization earlier.
1:31:32
Dear brother, we started the globalization concept. You know, first the prophet was declared for the first
1:31:39
time in history that he is the prophet for humanity. Number one, a mercy for humanity. Number one. So
1:31:46
this is number one. Second, we started the concept of globalization during the
1:31:51
golden era of Islam. We globalized economy. We globalized culture. We were able to globalize
1:31:58
university systems. We establish our globalization. But that kind of globalization was value based.
1:32:04
Yeah. It was not based on supremacy of one after against another or colonialism or
1:32:12
accumulation of wealth and centralization of power like the western civilization did in Africa and in Asia
1:32:18
when they coloniz colonized us and confiscated our wealth. We were able to do that. So
1:32:24
globalization is not something new. But what was in you the monopoly over wealth
1:32:30
and power by globalized mechanisms while depriving others from
1:32:36
participating in that global debate and discussion. We the Muslims for example when built our own globalization we
1:32:42
learned from the Buddhists from the Hindus from the ancient Greeks. We communicated with the Chinese we we
1:32:50
adopted techniques from Africa. We enriched societies everywhere. Muslim
1:32:55
societies to be part of the local culture and local philosophy and local tradition while they maintain the
1:33:02
pillars of faith that was our it was very diversified very it respects
1:33:08
everyone's everyone and did not allow anyone to accumulate wealth or power
1:33:14
but the rest is a history when it comes to the western civiliz globalization so
1:33:19
yes we need to go into that so we Muslims should start expressing ourselves in these kind of terms
1:33:26
rather than in a religious term or a reactionary term or emotional term
1:33:31
because that does not help. It will only isolate us further and people will look
1:33:37
at us as very narrowminded minority. Well, I um I'm still suffering from jet
1:33:44
lag and I've had four hours sleep last night but uh I feel thoroughly refreshed after today's conversation.
1:33:51
I think it's been a really fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much. Excellent.
1:34:00
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