Ep 281. - The Rise of the East and the Setting of the West | Dr Muhammad al-Mukhtar al-Shinqiti
This week on The Thinking Muslim, we have a fascinating interview with Muhammad al-Mukhtar al-Shinqiti. He argues that as the West declines, the East is rising, and the Muslim world, despite all its challenges, can be at the centre of events.
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
This week on the thinking Muslim, we have a fascinating interview with Muhammad al- Mktar al- Shiniti, professor of international affairs at Qatar University. He argues that as the west
0:10
declines, the east is rising and the Muslim world despite all its challenges can be at the center
0:16
of events. I know that this is what China wishes for. This is what Putin wished for. We've reached
0:23
the point in world history where there's no going back. The Russia is like a hurricane and China is
0:28
like a global warning. When I see what Trump is doing in Venezuela, the foreign hand is still
0:35
very heavy. Americans have to accept that they are part of the past. They are history. That's what I call the rise of the east and the setting of the west. Do you think that's why Israel is
0:44
so important to America? Do you think that uh Trump has given up on that? Probably Trump is
0:55
Dr. Muhammad Mkhtar al- Shinitilaykumah and welcome to the thinking Muslim. Thank you
1:02
all for having me. What I'm really excited for today's conversation because it's a conversation
1:08
a discussion that's quite close to to me and actually many of my viewers on the thinking Muslim because of course often when we think about the world we forget about the context within which
1:19
we live and and so we work in our silos. We conduct da'wah, we conduct Quran studies, we
1:26
conduct business, we conduct trade and commerce. Uh but as a Muslim um we sometimes forget the uh
1:33
the geopolitics that surrounds us. And so many of many time I think our work does not fit within
1:41
uh a a broader context, a broader political context. And I know off camera we spoke about
1:46
how important it is that Muslims as they educate themselves with Islam with the world they really
1:53
get have an intimate knowledge of the world around us. So today inshallah tala we have really an
1:59
expert I think uh on this subject of geopolitics to try to uh give us uh the those details that
2:06
we really need for us to be confident about how we should proceed uh inshallah tala in these next few
2:13
decades because I think it's fair to say the next few decades are going to be quite totious quite
2:19
catastrophic in a way and there's a lot of choppy waters out there and we've got to navigate that so we hope you can help us navigate that hopefully Not catastrophic. Not catastrophic. Possibly not.
2:29
Well, let's start actually with uh a a fundamental speech that was given almost a I think in his I
2:35
think I'm right in saying in the history books uh this speech will probably go down as the
2:40
point at which much of the west woke up to what is actually taking place in the world and that's
2:47
a speech by Mark Carney which was delivered as of today which was delivered last week at Davos.
2:53
uh and this is the world economic forum where the great and the good of the economic world as
2:58
well as the political world come together and discuss and Mark Carney gave this speech where he declared that we're not just going through a transition we're actually going through a
Is the World Going Through a Rupture?
3:08
rupture is that how you read the world today well that's uh thank you again I think his speech is a
3:18
it's an indicator of some kind of rift at least within the the Atlantic block. Mhm. So, uh it's
3:31
the Atlantic block is very important block within the world that we knew since World War II. Uh it
3:40
was very very important part of this equation, the global equation. uh Atlantism or Atlanticism
3:51
uh as a ideology and as a strategic unity looks like it's witnessing now some some rift uh is
4:02
that temporary uh phenomenon or something deep I don't know yet I know that this is what China
4:12
wishes for this is what Putin wished for this kind of split the two coast of the Atlantic. Probably
4:20
Trump is giving them what they wish for for a long time. Yeah. Uh but how far that will last and uh
4:29
how what are the implication for the I think it's too early to to say. Do you think that uh Trump
4:37
has given up on that post World War II order that the Americans have established? Has he completely
4:44
ruptured from that order? I I think so. I feel Yes. I I believe Trump is reviving, if we can say,
4:52
he's he's reviving uh moral doctrine, somehow, you know, President Moro, the fifth president of the
5:01
United States. Yeah. When he decided to push all of the European powers outside Yeah. the Western
5:07
Hemisphere. When I see what Trump is doing in Venezuela and you connected his rhetoric about
5:14
Canada, about Greenland, uh, all of this together and America first, you feel as if the 19th century
5:24
moral doctrine is coming back. Uh, which means that the United States is withdrawing basically
5:32
from the global scene slowly. Yeah, maybe they are not saying it explicitly, but I think that's what
5:38
Trump is trying to do. And I think he has also social base for this. Um, within the social base
5:46
of the Republican party, the American right, I think there are many people who went to America to
5:55
just to avoid this headache. Yeah, this is an old doctrine within the American political culture.
6:02
Uh people who believe in this their their view is based on we live in a country that is well
6:11
protected between two oceans and from the east and west and we have these nice weak neighbors
6:20
the south and and the north. So why should we bother what's going on in Europe or in Middle East
6:29
or in Asia etc. I think this kind of discourse is gaining ground in the United States today. I mean,
6:38
Dr. Shankit, do you think the postworld war post World War II order that was created was actually
6:45
an order based on a folly based on a mistake? Um, I'm reminded of um the criticism of of John
Is Global Hegemony Possible
6:53
Mshimer, Professor Mshimer, who argues that it's impossible really to be a global hedgeiment. Yet
6:59
America tried to be that global hedgeim and in in one sense in a sense that stretch that overstretch
7:08
uh is what America is trying to face up to today. I mean is that something you subscribe to that it was a mistake for to try to overachieve when it came to the extent to which it could it could
7:20
uh be all powerful in all of the continents of the earth. Maybe maybe that's right. uh what uh what
7:27
MV himself called the uniolarity moment uh I think it's not it's not normal even in Islamic faith
7:36
we believe that allahel created this universe on balance and balance is is important in everything
7:43
right and it's not normal to have one global power dominating uh everything if that's happened short
7:53
period of time maybe 30 that's that's fine since the end of the Soviet Union till let's say the
8:00
invasion of Iraq but that's not the normal uh circumstances and I think just things are going
8:10
back to normal multipolarity should be the normal circumstances and I think also it's it will create
8:18
more peace the more balance we have the better because that that uniolarity moment was very
8:27
dangerous for the world and I think also people in the Islamic world pay very heavy price in that
8:34
moment whether the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan or uh what's happened happening in Palestine and
8:42
many other places right okay um what then ever happened to Francis Fukyama's moment when he said
8:50
we've reached I think in 1989 when the Berlin wall was was going down. He said, "We've reached uh the
8:57
point in world history where there's no going back. Uh we now have the end of history. Uh and
9:03
in in the future, debates are going to be minor between countries. Uh because everyone has and
9:09
will embrace democracy and free market capitalism. That world does not seem to be the world we live
9:16
in today. And certainly we can't see that world in the next 10 or 20 years." Whatever happened to
9:22
Fukyama's dream? Fukama's dream was not consistent taken into account that he he claimed he based his
9:29
dream on philosophy of history of Hegel. Hegel. Yeah. And I don't think I don't think he got Hegel
9:37
right or or he didn't want to guess right. Uh because Hegel himself actually believed that life
9:45
is based on clash and and what in his terminology slaves are the one who move history not the
9:53
masters. But history basically is a conflict between slaves and masters or those who have those
9:59
who have not. if we talk about in a different language. Um I I think um he was too optimistic.
10:09
Um and uh you know in that moment of the end of the Soviet Union you find that that kind of
10:18
thinking it looks like just a wishful thinking. I I don't think uh because there are many people who
10:25
are not that his dream is is is based on some kind of self satisfaction everywhere and actually the
10:35
majority of human beings are not satisfied with their position. The majority of nations are not satisfied with their position in the world system. And uh I I think u it was just wishful thinking.
10:49
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12:49
Donald Trump said something very profound in one of his speeches where he said that's not usual.
12:54
That's not normal. He said that we allowed China to rise. We gave China access to the World Trade
Did the US allow China to Rise?
13:01
Organization. So they had preferential trade with the rest of of the world. We gave China
13:06
we wanted China to liberalize economically and by liberalizing economically China will become like
13:13
us and aspire to be like us but will live within our global hierarchy. Was Donald Trump being
13:20
extremely profound there? Well, I think he what he didn't talk about is more important which is
13:27
what was the motivation when they allowed China for example to join these institutions. Yeah.
13:34
Because they believe with with economic prosperity the Chinese political system will not sustain will
13:43
not stay as it is. Yeah. And China actually is a is really phenomenon. I mean when I I I I remember
13:52
even Fukyama in his big book on the on the fun fundaments of political thought or something
13:58
like that. I read it in the Arabic translation. Yeah. uh at the end of the book he said, "Oh,
14:04
with all of our uh u optimism about democracy, China is still a real challenge because it's a
14:14
political dictatorship, but it's very efficient, very successful." Mhm. economically and we never
14:24
predict something like that. M so I think yeah the motivation behind trying to include China was to
14:33
impact the Chinese political system which didn't happen and I think uh Chinese are smart or they
14:42
they outsmarted the Americans and the westerners in general not only this not only the first time
14:48
but when also Kissinger and Nixon tried to play China against Soviet Union China benefited from
14:55
that I believe more than the Americans themselves. Yeah. And uh I'm kind of interested in the Chinese
15:02
strategic thinking and and actually I'm translating the book of Sansu into Arabic now and I wrote an article about him. Yeah. And I feel uh they are very deep in their strategic
15:14
thinking and they can create common space with others but they always able to outsmart really
15:22
others especially the Americans. They did it in the 60s and they are doing it now. Really? So you
15:28
think China strategically thinks far more deeply and long term? Yes. Than the Americans do because
15:35
the Americans are what hampered by their electoral cycle. the leader with who they elect and some of
15:43
their leaders could be quite cartoonic in their in their personalities and their abilities like does Donald Trump have a strategy today about geopolitics? Um is that is that what you're
Chinas Geo-political Strategy
15:54
what you're suggesting that the Chinese system is deeper and has greater depth of I think Chinese
16:01
political wisdom is deeper really uh in in their strategic thinking. Yeah. Um and even one of the
16:10
American theorist uh he talked about this in a funny way. He said uh yeah he said Russia is like
16:17
a hurricane and China is like a global warming global warming. Yes. It's slow. Yes. Yes. Russia
16:26
is violent superficial. uh whatever Russians do it doesn't impact right and will not impact the
16:35
global system. Chinese are working silently slowly but they are changing the whole world. That's why
16:45
he said Russia is like a hurricane. China is like global warming. Yeah. And I think that's right.
16:52
The Chinese are very patient. I I don't I don't think there is any other nation that have that
16:58
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18:08
So, so in in that explanation then um uh because of course when um people like Mshimimer talk
18:16
about challenges to the west they use usually put Russia and China together but it seems to
18:22
me that Russia in some respects is actually quite superficial as a challenger and it's really China
18:27
that's a problem and then do you subscribe to I remember there was a book doing the rounds a few years ago in in Washington uh Graeme Allison the fusidities trap is America and China destined for
Is American and China Destined for War?
18:39
war. I mean, do you subscribe to the idea that war is inevitable between these two great powers? No,
18:47
I don't think so. I I think u Mimer understand China very well. So the metaphor he's using,
18:53
I think it's too dramatic when he talk about the Chinese gathering storm. No, I I that probably is
19:01
is true for Russia more than China. China is not storm. It's a global war as another American has
19:07
said. Yeah. The rise of there are there are several interpretation of the rise of China
19:14
and its implication in term of relation with the United States. There are those who believe that
19:19
war is inevitable like Ellison and uh his book that you mentioned. Mhm. And and there are people
19:27
who are just telling the west you have to accept the inevitable. Yeah. uh China is the leader of
19:35
the world today and you better just adapt to that and uh several books of Mahubani that's his main
19:45
argument in several books he wrote about the rise of China and there are some people who hope for or
19:52
try to to theorize some kind of common ground like Kevin Rod the former prime minister of Australia
19:59
in his book the avoidable war he believe Yeah, the war between the two is avoidable. Yeah. They
20:06
can have some common ground. Yeah. And I think he's here is reflecting the Australian concern
20:12
also because Australia culturally for is belongs to the west geographically belong to Asia. So
20:21
they they are caught in this crossfire between uh United States and China. There are several
20:27
interpretation. Chinese themselves uh I find two lines of thinking in Chinese writing on these some
20:34
of them are explicit that we are the new leader of the world Americans have to accept that and
20:42
one of them actually wrote a book the China dream it's like using same terminology as the US and
20:50
he's saying it explicitly just Americans have to accept that they are part of the past they
20:55
are history yeah the Chinese are more diplomatic and they're trying to say no actually the rise
21:02
of China is not a threat to anyone. We we just maybe we can create more balance to the world
21:09
order but doesn't mean that well this will affect the importance of the United States or Europe or
21:16
others. Yeah. So they are speaking in this kind of diplomatic tone but it hasn't always been very
21:23
diplomatic. I mean Xi Jinping took over in 2012 and for a period uh Chinese diplomacy went through
21:30
this quite assertive phase I think they called it wolf warrior diplomacy named after a famous film
Changes to Chinese Diplomacy
21:37
uh depicting China in sometime in the future who ruled the world and uh I remember that uh China's
21:45
even like embassies uh were sending out these very strong strongly worded tweets that actually made
21:51
them sound quite like Russians in a Um, is there a temptation in China uh to to see and observe their
22:00
strength today and to speak in a in a different way? In other words, are we moving away from this hide and era that we saw for the last three four decades? Maybe experts in China, some experts in
22:14
China uh believe that she is diff is different from other previous leaders like Deng Xiaoing.
22:22
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Uh Danza Ping for example was very quiet and what he did you can call it silent
22:30
revolution. Uh but she is not silent anymore at least in some some aspect some internal discourse.
22:39
Uh but I still uh I still believe that Chinese are quiet. they are uh investing in the uh blunders
22:50
and the mistakes of the United States. Yeah. And a friend of mine told me that he met one of
22:56
the leaders of the communist party a few years ago and he told him you know who's the man who served China more than anyone else. He said no. He said it was because he kept United States busy
23:09
for 10 years. Yeah. So Chinese are I think are investing in in the the American mistakes and they
23:18
they believe time is in their side. So they still they're still quiet. But I I think they're smart.
23:24
Yeah. I remember in 2016 during the uh uh the debates between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump,
23:32
uh Donald again, Donald Trump said a very profound thing, I have to say. I mean, he's not usually as prof. He said, you know, we've been fighting these useless wars in the Middle East.
23:40
we spend $3 trillion across these these wars. We could have rebuilt our country three times
23:46
over with that amount of money like China has been doing. And and that's really echoing what you're
23:51
saying there that you know these uh conflicts that the neocons encouraged had really wasted
23:58
America's blood and treasure. Of course they did. And Trump said many nice things. But is he able to
24:06
to to translate that into practice? I I doubt I think there are some Yeah. influence around
24:13
him. Yeah. Uh maybe his heart is with that that he want to avoid wasting American money and the
24:21
blood. Yeah. But uh I think still there are people who pushing him. For example, the the the the 12
24:30
days war with Iran. Yeah, I don't believe Trump uh deliberately wanted to participate in that war and
24:38
that's why he came he joined late. If it was an American decision, I think B2 will bomb Iran first
24:46
because that's how you know logically in military sense. If you want to attack Iran effectively,
24:54
the America the American B2 should start the strategic bombers should start not waiting
25:00
several days. Iran and Israel fighting each other and Trump comes just for one night and he said we
25:06
destroy everything and I I think I feel he was he was drawn against his will to participate in
25:13
that. Maybe that's what's happening also now uh all of this talk about American attack on Iran.
25:23
Yeah. Imminent attack on Iran. I think I I don't believe Trump want that. uh but maybe he has he
25:33
has to do many things he doesn't want that's the American system right I mean your expertise is in
25:40
international relations in geopolitics but of course you also have a very strong Islamic uh
How Muslims View History
25:47
uh undergard to to to that uh to that discipline I I'm interested in u how we as Muslims view history
25:56
if Fukiamama views history as a as the continuum as a pro as a as a road towards progress, a linear
26:04
road towards progress. How do we as Muslims understand um understand power and understand
26:12
the future of you know of of our I mean there was a time when the Ottomans used to believe that they
26:18
will be uh the power the world power until the day of judgment. Yes. So they seem to have this
26:23
fukyama philosophy. uh how do we rightfully view like the Islamic if there is an Islamic
26:30
uh understanding of of of power and civilizational sort of conflict. I think all empires maybe all
26:39
nations who uh who who got the chance to lead uh a human civilization or to have great empires,
26:49
you know, are infected with were infected with with this kind of narcissism and they felt, oh, we
26:58
are the the right one and we are the the leaders of the of the world. Yes. and we'll continue like
27:07
that. That's that's not what actually what Quran is teaching us in Islamic vision is
27:13
that human beings are tested with good time and bad time you know with prosperity and hardship
27:25
that Allah is rotating uh nations and cyclical. Yes. Yes. There is some kind
27:33
of cycle and every nation is tested with time of prosperity and time of hardship,
27:41
time of victory, time of defeat. Even in the time prophet, I mean, people didn't win all
27:47
of the wars during the time prophet. They have battle but they have one year later. So yeah,
27:54
uh that's that's normal circumstances and I think a believer in Islamic faith has to be ready to all
28:02
of these uh kind of circumstances. Now you've written a piece uh about geopolitics which I
28:09
really advise our viewers to read. Uh I think the English translation is still in draft but the the
28:15
title is the rise of the east and the setting of the west the shift of the global powers and the destinies of the Islamic world. I want to come to the Islamic world part uh very soon but uh there
28:27
are two distinct ideas that you talk about in your article which I need your clarification on. So
28:35
you talk about how we're not just going through a geopolitical phase, but actually what we're going
28:40
through is a civilizational turning point. Can you unpack that for us? What is a civilizational
28:46
turning point? Well, let's talk in geopolitics, geopolitical term first. I think what we see
28:52
today is it's it's it's kind of revival of the old dichotomy uh like clash between land powers,
29:04
great land powers, great sea powers or what they call also clash between emerging powers
29:12
and established power. they call it in Arabic those who are dominant and those who are merging.
29:23
So the rise of China is creating these kind of circumstances today. uh if we look at closely
29:30
to the world to the to the world order today I think we are witnessing the reemergence of Asia
29:39
in general or Eurasia uh broadly uh and that's historically is part of what is called the great
29:48
land powers the great empire of the past land empires like the Mongols or China uh uh and uh
30:00
and we have also the retreat of the maritime power or sea powers. um that that's what I call the rise
30:11
of the east and the setting of the west and this is a expression used beautifully in Arabic by an
30:18
Egyptian writer I borrowed from an Egyptian writer who lived early 20th century Hassan used the term
30:29
like the rise of the of the east and the setting of the west I I think that's we are witnessing
30:36
these Today China is rising slowly. Asia in general is uh rising slowly. The west is going
30:46
down slowly. Not only in term of uh military and and political means but even socially to feel that
30:57
kind of decline in social morality for example. Um and this is impacting everything in our world
31:05
today. Of course, including the Islam court, which is uh it's it's in between the two the
31:14
two power doesn't belong to the great land power nor the great sea powers. Yeah. Islamic world is
31:20
in between the two. So the Islamic world, let's talk about that bit. I think you use the word at least the translation is shatter belt. you use the word that uh the Islamic world is neither
How Islam Occupies an Important Space in the Globe
31:30
east nor west but it's in the in the middle it's intermediary um and so through geography the
31:37
Islamic world occupies a really important space um explain that to me why is because of course when
31:44
we think about Islamic world today we don't place it as a consequential actor in this rise of of of
31:54
global powers you know we talk about America and China, we talk about Russia. Uh Europe sometimes
32:00
features there. Maybe some Japan and India feature. But the Islamic world is isn't regarded
32:06
to as a instructive power as a consequential set of powers but rather just powers upon which uh
32:15
other powers decide their fate. So why do you do you suggest that the Islamic world is is pretty
32:22
important because of its geographical? It's very important in term of potential and also in term of location or geopolitics. Yeah. Let's see first if we look in a broad uh way I think
32:34
uh we have uh we have today four active actors. Yeah. And we have four passive actor if we can use
32:44
that term. Okay. On the global arena today. Yeah. Uh the the active powers are United States, China,
32:55
uh Russia and the European Union. Good. Yeah. And the four passive blocks are Islamic world, India,
33:05
Africa and South America. This is how I see the world today. I think there are eight blocks and
33:13
four of them are very active blocks. Others are more or less passive. The Islamic world
33:20
is one of these four passive blocks today. But not that's not because it has to be but that's
33:27
just the historical circumstances today. Okay. In term of geopolitics you know every Muslim so
33:35
know knows that we are in term of belief and value etc. But I think we are in term of geography also.
33:45
So we can also have that term in term term of geopolitics. By what's we mean central central and middle middle way. Middle way. Yes. Uh the Islamic word is a is like a
33:58
transcontinental continent you can say. uh Islam was born in uh northern in this
34:06
uh western part of Arabia that's in Asia but very close to Africa and also close to Europe
34:14
at the same time which means it was born at this point of connection between the three
34:21
continent these three continent Asia, Europe and Africa are the huge mass of the of the globe.
34:32
that the Egop politicians call the global island. The global island is this huge mass that contain
34:40
Asia, Africa and and uh Europe. The Islamic world was born there in that point of connection between
34:47
the three. Yeah. And of course uh in term of uh the importance strategic importance it's
34:55
extraordinary. The uh for example in the world today we have the most important uh street on
35:04
earth today are eight. Seven of these streets are inside or almost inside the Islamic world. Yeah.
35:14
If we count them from west to the east for example starting with Jabal coming to Danil Bourand
35:25
Hormos Malika these seven the only very important street that is not in the Islamic world is Panama
35:35
uh and that's why this region is very important for all nation all rising nations you you find
35:42
their eyes on on these on this region historically and try to get to put their hand on this region.
35:51
Um, of course uh in term of energy, in term of population, term of uh location, the Islamic
36:01
code has extraordinary potential. Unfortunately, that potential still wasted today is not used as
36:09
should. I'm going to come to the wasted bit in a second, but do you think that's why Israel is so important to America? Uh because by having Israel in the region, you prevent the rise of
Geographical Importance of Israel to the West
36:23
uh any great power, any regional power, any form of unification because it it's it creates this
36:30
uh uh this break in the region and con and continuously tries to keep the other powers
36:36
in check. Like do you think just from a from a geopolitical perspective or geographical
36:42
perspective uh Israel remains important to the west because of because of that sort of basic
36:49
power relation in that negative sense? Yes. I mean Israel was maybe positively important
36:56
for the west in the 60s say during the cold war because there are some Arab regime who were well
37:03
deeply connected to the Soviet Union for example. Yeah. So if America has a a country close to it
37:10
like Israel at that moment maybe it was useful at that specific moment but not anymore. Yeah.
37:15
The the importance of Israel today is what you you have described I think. Yeah. It's just
37:22
preventing any kind of rising power any kind of unification in this region. Yeah. And the
37:29
place of is very interesting also. I I see the the map of the Islamic court like a huge bird.
37:36
with the Arabia. Arabia in its large sense that's include Iraq and greater Syria. That's that's
37:46
for example the heart and with two wings eastern wings that ex expand to central and south Asia and
37:57
western wing that expand to in into west and north Africa. Even if you put some record on Google,
38:05
you see it's the shape of of this bird. When you look where is Palestine in that bird,
38:11
you'll find it exactly at the place of the heart. So people who attack Islam in Palestine actually
38:19
they attacked Islam in the heart. They didn't attack, you know, this left wing or right wing
38:26
or something on the periphery. Yeah. No, they attacked at the heart. And that's the the the
38:32
uh the the the uh the risk that we have, the danger that we have from but uh but I I think the
38:39
the the conflict on Palestine was never a local or localized conflict. It was always global. It's not
38:47
this also not not new. Yeah. You know, I I I wrote my uh my PhD actually on the Crusades really. And
38:54
the Crusades was a global conflict. all Western Europe, all Western Christianity was mobilized
39:03
uh to attack in order to to get rid of Muslims in in Palestine. M same thing when when the when
39:11
the British came to the region before General Almi invaded Jerusalem before that 33 years
39:21
they occupy Cairo and few years before that they occupy Assa coming from India and then two years
39:30
before they occupy Palestine they try to occupy Stanbul in the in the Galipoli famous battle.
39:39
So if you look at Jerusalem, you'll find it in the heart of this triangle. You have Cairo,
39:47
Baghdad and Stumble. So you cannot control Palestine without controlling the whole region
39:56
and that's what what make the the the conflict on Palestine. It's always a global conflict. Uh
40:02
you mentioned earlier that um unlike these active powers, these four active powers, uh the Islamic
40:09
world is a passive power and so it is uh a region upon which global great powers conduct their their
40:17
malicious activities or their activities rather than it sets the agenda and it it is able to
40:24
strategically uh um operate in in this sort of in this space of transition or in this ruptured
40:31
world. Um, why have we wasted our efforts? I know this is a million-dollar question in a way.
40:37
Uh but why is it that at this moment in time the Arab world, the Muslim world has failed uh to use
40:45
the opportunity of this rupture uh to reunify to to build integrationist trends to establish um uh
40:56
economic par between the different states and to uh to produce economic unions and and uh military
What is Stopping Muslims from Unification?
41:05
unions like NATO. What is stopping us from that level of of unification? Yeah, that's really hard
41:11
questions. Uh well I think uh lack of vision, lack of moral commitment, yeah, political selfishness,
41:23
ignorance, many many many factors unfortunately and there are some structural uh causes also
41:30
like lack of democracy and real institution that reflect the will of people. All of that together
41:37
plus the legacy of colonialism is still deep in this in this region. you know as a professor of
41:44
Schlime in one of his book that was assigned to me long time ago when I was student at Texas Tech
41:50
University it's a it's a book on the history of Middle East he said you know the plight of this
41:55
region is that the Middle East was never given the chance in the modern time to develop according to
42:03
its own natural laws. So this region is not developing according to its own natural laws.
42:10
the foreign hand is still very heavy. Uh but uh I I think it's our responsibility at at the end of
42:18
the day. Yes. Um the worst of it is dictatorship. Uh dictators are doing something and people are
42:28
saying doing something else. Yeah. And without without uh solving that that structural deep
42:37
illness I I don't think uh nothing will anything good will will come unfortunately um maybe I mean
42:49
because of the atrocity we saw in Raza because of this uh Israel now is you find Israel bombarding
43:00
four or five countries in one day for example. This kind of behavior hopefully will wake up
43:08
people will awaken some some people. I can see in the in the last month some kind of reproachma
43:16
little bit between uh some countries in the region for example between Saudi Arabia, Turkey,
43:26
uh Egypt, Pakistan, Qatar. I mean there are some I I feel at least there is some feeling of of that
43:36
there is an imminent danger that everybody is targeted everybody is at risk. Uh I hope that's
43:44
beginning but uh still still we have we have a lot of homework to do. Yeah. Earlier on uh you
The Dangers and Benefits of Multi-Polarity
43:52
said that multipolarity is an opportunity. It's a positive thing for the world because of course
43:58
you don't then have this one uni pole that amasses power and is able to uh administer its own justice
44:05
uh upon upon especially the Muslim world as we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere. Um but of
44:12
course multipolarity also has its dangers. Um uh in a world pre uh the bipolar world of the cold
44:20
war you know a multipolar world led to the two world wars. Uh a multipolar world also led to uh
44:27
states in in in uh you know who are middle powers uh who were not able to maneuver in in that space.
44:37
Um what are the dangers of multipolarity that we as a Muslim world need to think about? Let's
44:42
talk about the benefits first of multipolarity. Yeah. Because I I look at it from a historical
44:47
perspective. You know in the mid 20th century many uh nations benefited from the rift between
44:55
Soviet Union and the west. Uh the the liberation movement all liberation movement around the world
45:03
benefited from that. Yeah. I mean the the most uh clear example in in the Arab world is the Algerian
45:10
revolution for example it was supported by Soviet Union by Mong by Hosim about by Tito and all of
45:20
the communists around the world and they don't do it they don't do it for the sake of Algerians
45:26
but because it was part of their strategy to help anyone who can bother the the western power. Yeah,
45:35
I think I think if we are smart enough to benefit from the new multipolarity, yeah,
45:42
it can be beneficial. Of course, there is a risk also because others will try to to wage
45:48
their worth their wars on our land for example. Also that also happened between the west and the
45:54
Soviet Union. Yeah, for example. There are many wars. Americans never fought the the the uh the
46:00
Russians face to face in the 40 years of the cold war but they were fighting them through others and
46:09
uh the this kind of of war also is is risky but I think today uh Muslims can benefit from the rise
46:18
of China at least tactically u to push little bit to get of of the uh strategic infiltration western
46:32
strategic infiltration to me is the most dangerous thing because it's very deep it's been there for
46:39
centuries since fascodama come to the Indian Ocean 500 years ago the western strategic infiltration
46:47
of the region nothing can be achieved with this kind of strategic infiltration Mhm. China at least
46:57
like like China in the mid 20th century when they helped some of the liberation movement I
47:02
think they can you can you can find some kind of uh common space with them. Yeah. Which is not easy
47:09
all the time of course but I think it's if it's done well it can be very beneficial. So in your
47:16
article you talk about how China can provide the Muslim world some maneuverability, some ability to
47:23
uh but of course there is a concern about China in for example its treatment of Muslims within its
47:29
border you know we uh there is a a feeling that um even if China at this stage is trying to cozy up
Could China's Anti-Islamic Policies Mirror the U.S?
47:39
to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan uh when uh China gets into a becomes uh uh a a a strong enough
47:48
power uh it would uh apply that same anti-Islamic uh sentiment that it applies on its own on its
47:57
own citizens when treatment uh when treating the Islamic world. In other words, uh China would act
48:03
in a similar way to say how the Americans have acted for the last 20 years in the Muslim world.
48:08
Well, I think in strategy you don't you don't care much much about about the intention but you care
48:15
about the action or the interest of of the other party. I think uh China doesn't have a colonial
48:25
history the way the west have it. They don't have even the colonial expertise by the way. Yeah. I
48:32
mean unlike for example uh westerners whether it's French in North Africa or British in in in
48:39
Asia for example in the Middle East uh China is is is kind of self-contained civilization they felt
48:49
always self-sufficient they feel they don't need other they don't they don't have even a message
48:55
to convey to others I mean they they don't do much to to spread their language for example
49:00
yeah That's why they established this confucious institutes. Well, it's irrelevant you know just
49:05
see today how many people speaks English here in this street and those who speak Chinese of course
49:12
it's a big big difference so that's one of the weakness of China doesn't have the cultural uh
49:20
attraction their soft power is is almost none and that's good more important for me they don't have
49:28
that strategic infiltration that westerners have the westerners because of because of the strategic
49:36
infiltration can they will they play with the internal equation inside our our country. Yeah.
49:42
I mean by by controlling few military officers they can change the political system in this this
49:50
country and they can support queta in that country etc. So if the problem with China,
49:59
if you have problem with China, at least you have problem with an outsider. But with the west, you
50:05
have problem with an insider, right? Is fighting you with your own means using your own people,
50:12
fighting you on your own land. I'm not saying China doesn't have ambition. Yes, of course they
50:18
have ambition. And I I used to give my students actually of global of uh international affairs.
50:26
Uh I used to ask them to to to watch a Chinese film called Operation Red Sea. U it's a Chinese
50:35
uh film produced by the Chinese army. They spend a lot of money on it about $77 million. And uh
50:45
it's all about it's like you know Hollywood movies that glorifying the mar American marines but this
50:52
is Chinese marines this this time u and it's very important you know when I give it to send to them
50:59
okay let's watch this film and let's see what kind of message trying to to convey to Chinese public
51:06
to people in our region and to the competing global powers like United States for example Let's
51:14
try to to get these three messages from the film. Chinese have have ambition and I think they have
51:22
um somehow contained the the Asian Islam. We can say somehow mean China have strategic relation
51:32
with Pakistan. They are investing heavily in infrastructure in central Asia. They are the one
51:39
who are rebuilding Afghanistan today. For example, they have strategic partnership treaty with Iran.
51:48
Of course, they have a guad support in Pakistan. Yeah. And military base in Djibouti etc. You know,
51:58
you see they have they have their own ambition but but I think their way of doing business is much
52:04
easier on the short term. I don't know what's will happen in the future. Of course, then the problem
52:11
that the chronic problem that we have with western powers. Yeah. Muslims Muslims in China. That's a
52:18
very good point. Of course, you know, uh it's a tragic no doubt uh what's what's happening the
52:26
Muslims in China. But I think we have also to give every Muslim country or every Muslim nation the
52:33
right to achieve their own interest without making them responsible of what's happening to Muslims
52:41
in another place. I mean when the Algerians were taking arms from the Soviet Union, Soviet Union
52:48
was occupying many Muslim people of course in Central Asia. Yeah. They were imposing on them
52:54
even communism and atheism. But our journal are not responsible of what's happening to the Muslim
53:02
OSB or Tajik or other Muslims. I mean they cannot do anything about it. So uh we have to give that
53:09
kind of I think uh to give people room for to maneuver in order to achieve uh some interest
53:19
and I actually I think the more common interest with China that will give Muslims a say on what's
53:29
happening also and probably they will have the possibility to to to defend and Muslims in China
53:37
or to convince Chinese to treat Muslims for their own self-interest to treat Muslims in a better way
53:44
in order to have good relation with Islamic court for example. Why is it so important for Muslims
53:50
according to you to study geopolitics? Because of course it's a subject we don't really study and
The Necessity to Study Geopolitics and Strategy
53:56
maybe today uh many of my viewers would say okay this is a great discussion but it's beyond me to
54:03
to really get into the intricacies the details of of international politics that that is for
54:09
special people or for particular experts. Um you argue that uh there is really a necessity as part
54:16
of our learning as a Muslim ummah for us to be well aware of uh global relations like spell that
54:25
out for us. Why is that so important? I think in Islamic culture we we've been too abstract
54:33
for too long. Uh we talk a lot about abstract leave. We talk a lot about abstract principles,
54:42
talk about identity, about culture, about all kind of cultural abstraction without efficiency,
54:51
without uh effective effort. And I think the reason of that because we ignore two very
54:59
important field of knowledge today, geopolitics and strategic status. Right? We like I mean the
55:06
the great Algerian thinker Malik Penabi talked about this in one of his books actually in a few
55:12
of his books and he called the lack of practical lo or he used the uh the French word savar which
55:21
means knowh how that Muslims need really know how they need technical expertise technical expertise
55:29
in the strategic and political sense here. Yeah. So I I think with the strategic sense with the
55:37
uh uh with good study of of geopolitics that will uh save for us a lot of time and effort. Muslims
55:49
are are giving huge sacrifice but the results are very me. No, it's it's there there is no there is
55:58
no uh compatibility between the sacrifice and the achievements. Yeah. And when you see that
56:05
that means there is a problem in practical understanding, practical sense or strategic
56:12
sense. So I I think I I really believe and I've been working on these uh cultural abstract
56:20
issues for many years on Islamic political thought. Yeah. on Islamop political history,
56:25
on philosophy of religion and that kind of things that I study at the university. But I feel there
56:33
is something missing that we have to and I advise young Muslims to spend some time and some effort
56:42
on geopolitic and strategic steps. I'm going to I I don't believe this for I I what you're saying to
56:48
is is music to my ears. Um but I I would say that so many people would would suggest well
56:55
what has that got to do with Islam? you know, Islam is to uh to fulfill your obligations,
Where Different Types of Religiosity Fit in Our Lives
57:01
to learn the Quran, to learn the Sunnah, to you know, to understand how to live a moral life. And
57:08
their paradigm is one of trying to uh uh make them personally closer to Allah subhanaa tala
57:16
to get Jenna. And this subject of geopolitics, surely that's not a religious subject. That's
57:21
not something that will gain us ja. So why should we place that within our our learning like how
57:27
would you respond to to to this? Yeah, that's very important question actually and this might
57:34
because my study was in history of religion and and the philosophy of religion. There are
57:39
something we call types of religiosity. There are several types of religiosity.
57:45
Some people all of their religious energy is on fulfilling or you know performing rituals about
57:56
and that's called ritual religiosity and there are there is social religiosity some people whose
58:02
religious energy is for example doing charity and defending the oppressed and and some people
58:09
their religiosity is intellectual it's called intellectual religioity they like discussing ideas on religion. Yeah, they are very skillful in defending the faith and religious ideas but they
58:20
might not be very practicing in their own personal life etc. This sometimes it has something to do
58:26
with the human personality. You know everyone has his personality but we have to to see also the
58:33
uh that Islam is different from other religion. When I talk usually about Islam and secularism
58:40
told them every religion has its own uh foundation and that foundation is what we have to use to
58:49
judge our own behavior. For example, uh you find the foundation in the early stage of any religion.
58:58
Uh how how how Buddhism started as a religion. Buddha was a prince. He was an Indian prince means
59:08
he was doing politics. But when he started his mission, he ran away from the palace and he left
59:16
behind anything relate to public life and he went to that figure tree and he sit there in the etc.
59:24
So uh this is how Buddhism was born. He was born Buddha with throwing from public life to private
59:34
life. M Islam was exactly the opposite. Prophet Muhammad was in the cave of Hra. Then Quran came
59:41
to him draw him to the society. And even when he tried to cover him has a nice poetry about
59:50
this that when a prophet tried to cover himself in Quran tell him no you cannot. Yeah. You know you
59:59
have to stand up you have to uncover yourself. People need you. Uh I remember nice story uh
1:00:09
mentioned by uh bybal in his construction of Islamic thought. This is Muhammadbalani
1:00:16
one of the uh one I'm one of the friends of course and uh I wrote a lot about him. Yeah.
1:00:24
And I went to Lahul just to visit you with Menz and Mazarb and and I met his
1:00:32
grandchildren and yes it was extraordinary trip uh in his reconstruction Islamic thought he
1:00:39
quoted few verses of poetry written by an Afghani Sufi poet his name Abdul Kadus he
1:00:48
said Abdul Kadus said in his poetry prophet Muhammad ascended to the seventh heaven and
1:00:56
then he came back to earth by Allah if it were me if it was me I I will never come
1:01:02
If I went there, I would never come back to it. And then said, well, this is difference between
1:01:08
Sufi consciousness and prophetic consciousness. Yes. The Sophie want to save himself. He doesn't
1:01:16
care what's happening people on earth. But prophet has to has to come back because people need him on
1:01:22
earth. So for Muslims uh it's not enough to save himself. It's not enough to withdraw from public
1:01:30
life to go to the forest the way Buddha did. No, he he need to withdraw from his cave to the public
1:01:40
life. And that's that's part of Islam. Uh and uh when we when we read Islam through the eyes
1:01:50
of other religions, maybe we got confused. But I think we need to read Islam on its own ter.
1:01:58
Tell me about his fascination with Kabal. Um I I very rarely meet Oh, that's a longer story. Oh,
1:02:04
I I have I have all evening. I very very rarely meet uh an Arab uh person or academic
About Muhammad Iqbal
1:02:11
who reads Muhammadbal so closely. I mean why why Muhammadbal? I don't know why. I just uh
1:02:17
got fascinated with 25 years ago. Yeah. For a long time. for the uninitiated like who is
1:02:24
Muhammadbal and why is he so so profound? Bal is is just a fascinating uh personality. I you know
1:02:34
um I knew him first through the books some books in Arabic about him and in English like book of uh
1:02:42
of uh s Hassan Nadui glory of it he was written in Arabic originally. Yeah. And another Egyptian poet
1:02:51
and medical doctor, a genius, his name is is his book is the revolutionary poet. He's a the writer
1:03:05
is Nib Kilani. Yeah. And I think Anmar Shamal book Gabriel swing started with this and then he just
1:03:15
extraordinary fascinating started uh and then I read all of the books of course all of his poetry
1:03:21
I memorized hundreds of verses of his poetry in Arabic translation. Yeah I read him in French
1:03:26
translation, English, Arabic. I wish I can read them in order and Persian unfortunately. Yeah,
1:03:32
not possible yet. Um many nice stories happened to me with in 1915. I I was in a conference in
1:03:42
Granada. I told my friend I have to go to Corttoba. He said why? He said I went to
1:03:49
read the poem of the mosque of Corttoba inside the mosque. Said what? You're traveling 3 hours in the
1:03:57
bus and 3 hours coming back just to read this poem for 2 minutes. They said, "Of course, for me it's
1:04:03
worth Yes, it's worth it." So, I went to there and I read the poem inside the mosque and there
1:04:08
was a Spanish police officer coming to me. Sir, no public statement is allowed here. He was chasing
1:04:18
me and I was hiding behind Yeah. behind tourists inside the mosque until I was able to Yeah. to
1:04:25
record the And what was the poem? Do you recall the rough? Yeah, of course. I memorize it by in
1:04:31
Arabic translation. Can you tell us in Arabic what the poem was? Yeah, it's it's called the mosque of
1:04:50
it's a very long poem and but I don't want to read it in Arabic for your audience might not
1:04:57
understand and and roughly what is is he lamenting the loss of of ka what is the yes yeah the loss of
1:05:04
Andalusiabar was the first Muslim who pray inside the mosque of Corttoba after 700 years. Corttoba
1:05:13
was taken by the uh by the the Spaniard in 1238. Yeah. and he visited the mosque 1931 and he
1:05:27
asked he got a special permission really from the minister of culture of Spain at the time was his
1:05:33
friend he was orientalist was deeply interested in Islamic culture he has a book on on the uh Islam
1:05:42
and the divine comedy no divine divine comedy or of dante of dante yeah divine um I know what you
1:05:52
infernal the divine the yeah dant is inferno maybe. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yes. Yeah. Um and
1:06:00
u and and he I have I have his pictures praying there inside. He he wrote several several poem
1:06:08
on on on andia uh including one um on the river of Corttoba. One when he was saying bye to Corttova,
1:06:20
farewell to Corttoba. Uh yeah. And this is what among his most beautiful poem at
1:06:27
least in the Arabic translation. And my friend Shik Pakistani scholar of told me also that he
1:06:36
didn't told me but he said it in one of his books he said that the the poem Mosque of
1:06:43
is the most eloquent poem ever written in Uru in the history of of of this language.
1:06:49
said we need to bring you back to talk about Alama Kabal I think at a later because that is a yeah
1:06:56
far away from geopolitics far away from one final question actually um so we've all that we've said
1:07:02
so far uh and we've talked about the importance of geopolitics and you know I I personally see
1:07:08
the learning of geopolitics to be part of our religious duty as a Muslim um because that's yes
1:07:14
how we as as as Muslims uh accumulate strength and and power as as an um and and you know it's
1:07:21
maybe our lack of understanding of geopolitics that has led us to partly at least to our very
The Practicality of Studying Geopolitics
1:07:27
problematic and challenging state in in the world. How do we practically get there? Like apart from
1:07:32
studying geopolitics at a university level and there's no guarantee by the way that someone who
1:07:37
studies geopolitics is going to be an effective strategic practitioner of geopolitics. Right? So
1:07:44
many who go to London universities and come back and rule the Muslim world not particularly well I
1:07:50
I presume. So how do we incor how do we bring geopolitics into our halakart system into our
1:07:57
mothers assault system into our I think we need the institutions uh of course knowledge knowledge
1:08:04
itself is not enough definitely there is need for commitment of course uh but I I believe people
1:08:11
are knowledgeable about geopolitics strategic studies if they are committed they can serve the
1:08:17
cause much more uh in in a much more effective way and there is a lot of lack of efficiency in
1:08:27
what Muslims are doing today. Unfortunately, I think that's also the main idea of Malik Bi in
1:08:32
his books is that lack of efficiency, you know, leicity he call it in French. Yeah,
1:08:38
that's one of the main illness of Islamic culture today. Um I think geopolitics just make us
1:08:47
uh realistic and we can have practical plans. We can do politics in the practical sense. Yeah.
1:08:55
Not as slogans or abstraction and that's what is needed today. And uh talking about geopolitics,
1:09:04
I think also we need to understand geopolitical, Islamic world, what kind of potential we have. Why the Islamic world is so divided today for example with all of the potential we have? Yeah. Is it
1:09:15
because of uh of multiple identities and and uh and diversity? No, I don't think so. The European
1:09:25
in the European European Union has 24 official languages. the European Union for example and
1:09:33
there are many ethnicities. Yeah. In Europe but they are today's just like one federal country.
1:09:40
Uh if we look at the western world in general with NATO with open border with uh working together at
1:09:49
least before Trump bring his his new ideas. Yes. I mean at least in the last 70 years since the end
1:09:57
of World War II the west has been very effective block and with a huge geographic uh distances with
1:10:07
a huge uh ethnic and cultural differences but they were able to work together mean uh people you know
1:10:16
I I don't agree with people who are pessimistic about the the reality of the Islamic world today
1:10:22
and said oh so many people so many languages too far away. How can I be how can I be in unity
1:10:28
with Malaysia for example or with Bangladesh or with synagogue it's far away it's too different
1:10:34
then same thing in the western world you know how far is Australia from UK for example it's
1:10:41
15,000 kilometers but but they are both part of the western world so I think uh we need to create
1:10:50
a also practical sense of how to achieve Islamic unitybal talked about two two principles by the
1:10:59
way on this. He was not always writing poetry. He also did politics. Yeah. um he talked about
1:11:08
uh the necessity for an Islamic League of Nation and that was in the theories and he also wrote
1:11:17
uh in one of his of his letters he talked about the necessity of an Islamic commonwealth. He
1:11:25
talked about these two concept Islamic League of Nation and Islamic common. I mean he was a man of
1:11:31
his time at least. He was thinking how others achieve some kind of unity and why don't we do
1:11:38
it and I think uh um we need a profound change in our political culture and the first and foremost
1:11:49
is to be more familiar I believe with geopolitic and strategic status to be practical. Thank you
1:11:58
so much. Professor Dr. Muhammad Mkhtar Shiniti, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today
1:12:04
and it's really been I I think it's just been a wonderful interview. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot. Asalam alaikum. Now you've reached the end of this show and the fact
1:12:14
that you've stayed until the very end tells me that you truly believe in our work. Please consider making a one-off donation or becoming a member by visiting thinkingmuslim.com/membership.
1:12:26
Now, your contributions give you exclusive behind-the-scenes access and the ability to ask questions to our guests and monthly calls with myself,
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my team and our guests like Sami Hamdi and keep us in your duas.