Ep 280. - ICE: When US Fascism Comes Home | Hussam Ayloush
In this episode of The Thinking Muslim, we sit down with Hussam Alyoush, CEO of CAIR California, to discuss some of the most urgent civil rights challenges facing Muslim and immigrant communities today. From ICE operations and the shocking deaths of U.S. citizens to the erosion of civil liberties and the rise of Islamophobia, we unpack how state power and fear are reshaping American society. Hussam shares his insights on the driving forces behind the national uproar against ICE, the role of CAIR in defending civil rights, and the differences between U.S. and European Muslim advocacy. We also explore controversial topics like designating CAIR as a foreign terrorist organization, Muslim migration due to Islamophobia, and how to support Syria beyond humanitarian aid. This episode is a critical conversation about justice, civil liberties, and the fight against systemic oppression.
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:03
asalam allayikum and welcome back to the thinking muslim. Great being here and especially in person.
0:10
Alhamdulillah. It's really great to be in person with you actually. Um the last conversation we
0:16
had was on geopolitics was on Syria in particular and uh I think it was just after the revolution
0:23
alhamdulillah and uh uh the liberation of Syria. Uh I may want to talk a little bit about that towards the end of today's interview. But actually what I want to talk about is your
0:32
specialism because you are uh you are the head of care California. Care is a civil rights uh
0:38
organization that does some very effective work. I saw it firsthand when I was in California. And
0:44
uh I want to focus on the Trump administration and some of the ways by which it is eroding civil
Eroding Civil liberties - Case of Minneapolis
0:51
rights and civil liberties not just for Muslims of course but for general society. And it's probably
0:58
fitting to start with what is happening at the moment in Minneapolis where the uh ICE agents
1:04
where uh uh federal agents killed Alex Pretti. uh and it just feels like a line has been crossed.
1:12
Um in your view, was this a aberration or is it part of a a systematic use of force by the Trump
1:21
administration? Uh there's no debate that ICE has been given authority to use force because we've
1:28
seen new tactics. Uh I think training now allows for the use of force not only in the uh abduction
1:37
and arrest of uh suspected undocumented people but anyone who derails or makes it difficult for them
1:44
to conduct such raids or arrests that includes US citizens who might be protesting. So we we
1:50
see a change in their pattern and of of practice in the way they uh conduct themselves. Yeah. uh
1:57
such as being more forceful, more pushy, arresting people. Even the way they approach people today,
2:03
you know, now it's no longer going and and and raiding a place where they have a tip that maybe
2:09
undocument documented people work, but even on the street. So, it's really on the basis of race. And unfortunately, the Supreme Court has allowed that being a factor in deciding who gets
2:21
stopped now. So when they see brown people who whom they deem to be possibly Latinos,
2:26
it is not unusual to be stopped and be asked for your uh proof of citizenship. M so yes now whether
2:34
a line was crossed whether it is uh intended you know I don't think there the intention was to kill
2:40
people but when you tell government employees you are protected and your behavior is not going to
2:46
be scrutinized by government you will behave in you know with impunity basically what happens
2:52
is they say uh power abuses and and you know and absolute power absolutely uh corrupts I guess they
3:01
power corrupts. So what happened today? You know, obviously the killing of Alex Petty is Petty is
3:08
not the first. You know, there was Renee Good who was also only a week or so was killed too. So the
3:14
so far three US citizens have been killed. Yeah. Uh firearms and shootings were uh used 16 times.
3:23
10 Americans have, you know, that includes four Americans who were shot. Yeah. So I think what
3:30
is different this time is that obviously they're US citizens both you know Renee and and and Alex
3:38
there happen be to be Anglo white so it is not the usual suspect they're not the ones deemed
3:44
as secondass citizens that nobody will have uh sympathy with. But here's the the change. I think
3:53
uh number one I think I personally thought as a civil rights activist that there would be outrage on the street like including his base the president's base there wasn't if you look
4:04
at the on social media there wasn't the outrage there were some people saying okay maybe that's way too far polls show that maybe 60 maybe 62% of Americans uh are not happy uh of of the tools
4:17
and the practices of ICE but that's not a huge huge number like you would think when when you
4:22
know only a few weeks ago uh Trump was threatening Iran with you know being bombed for having their
4:29
police shoot at Iranian protesters you know which is never an acceptable thing of course we're doing
4:36
the same thing you know maybe not at that same scale you would think 80% of people in America
4:42
maybe 85% should be outraged if it's only 60% it tells me there's still a base that is okay with
4:48
that and what accounts Why is it that the base remains so resilient when as you said it's not
A Population comfortable with Civilian Causalities
4:55
a foreigner or a suspected illegal migrant who's being shot? Uh even though that's unacceptable.
5:02
These are white Americans. Yeah. Mainly because we we've had polarization reach its highest
5:09
level I've ever seen in recent history in America today. There is a demonization of the other and
5:16
especially coming from the right I have to say. I mean, yes, the left has its fair share of of also
5:22
otherizing uh and demonizing maybe the other side, but the most part of is is being done by
5:29
Trump supporters who have been fueling xenophobia and fascism in ways that America hasn't seen in in
5:36
decades maybe. So people who support immigrants and migrants, documented or undocumented,
5:44
are deemed as people who are threatening America's security, allowing for foreign invasion,
5:51
uh replacement of, you know, basically uh of and and displacement of of the majority. So that's why
5:58
the average person who supports anti-immigrant and anti-immigration policies sees, you know,
6:05
people who defend immigrants as part of the problem. So there's little sympathy even if
6:10
these people are American citizen despite you know maybe a pattern of acceptance that ex exists among
6:18
the supporters you know enough voices were made you know from reasonable Republicans including
6:24
people in Congress complaining or demanding an independent investigation something should be very
6:29
basic uh polls still show that there's a decline in the uh support for the president's actions
6:37
against immigrants, documented or undocumented, to the point that the president felt the need
6:44
to backtrack on some of his actions. And and we're hearing now that, you know, some some measures are
6:49
being taken to allow an independent investigation to happen by the state and and maybe even by the
6:56
city. uh you know pulling out many if not all of of the uh you know agents ICE agents and
7:04
maybe easing up on the forceful behavior. Yeah. No, that's true because um initially the White
7:11
House uh spokes uh woman spokesperson was uh very strong in suggesting that Alex Prey pulled out a
7:21
gun or he was a he was a a domestic terrorist or whatever the phrase was. Yeah, domestic terrorist. arrested terrorists. Um, but that but as you said that there is a a a rowing back from
7:32
the White House from particularly from Donald Trump who refuse to use those sorts of terms. Um,
7:38
so do you think that uh the Trump administration has overstepped here and they've realized that
7:43
maybe they've taken things too far when they gave this absolute license for ICE agents to
Are The Trump Administration Realising they have Overstepped?
7:50
conduct themselves in with impunity. Yeah. At the end of the day, it's about popularity. It's
7:55
about what how much you know uh uh voters are willing to digest and tolerate and you know
8:02
we're facing we have a a very important election in November and and before that depending on the
8:08
state which state it's going to be there there will be primaries so only few months from now
8:13
the country is going to have a chance to express uh its uh response to what they're seeing seeing
8:20
and and Congress is now in the hands or controlled by Republicans. All it takes is a handful, three,
8:27
four seats and then we'll see a flip at least in the House. So the president is very aware and and
8:33
his political leadership in ter in terms of the Republican party is noticing that the sentiment in
8:40
the country today is not as supportive. you know, they're supportive of the policies of deporting
8:46
uh and and kind of scaring uh immigrants, you know, and that, by the way, is not just targeting
8:52
people for deportation, but also have the the ban visa ban on 75 or so countries. Uh the targeting
9:00
of students, foreign students, making it harder. So, it's almost like a full package of reducing
9:06
uh immigration uh and visitors to the US. And for that, the base is in support. the Republican base.
9:13
It is just where the violence has has reached a level where okay it doesn't look good uh you
9:19
know even for somebody who uh carry weapons you know for them you know that is the right to carry
9:24
weapon without being called a domestic terrorist terrorist is also important for many of his base
9:30
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10:13
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10:32
Let me ask you about uh the rise in Islamophobia in the United States because of course there does
10:39
seem to be a a steep rise in in anti-Muslim feeling uh within uh within American society.
10:48
Uh there is a a discussion that was very fringe once upon a time. the great replacement theory
Islamaphobia an The Great Takeover Theory
10:54
uh seems to now at least in some circles uh is seen to be a a central theme and of course
11:00
Muslims and Islam is is webbed in is is merged into that into that conversation. I mean I'm right
11:07
in saying you are four four million maybe four or five million in in the United States less than 1%
11:13
of the population. So it's a it's a you know in comparison to Britain it's a it's a minority of
11:18
a minority. Um just tell me about like explain why that doesn't add up. You know you're a very small
11:26
group of people in the country yet uh Islamophobia is is so rampant. Yeah. Studies after studies
11:33
conducted by various research organizations, academics and care, the Council on American
11:40
Islam Creations have found that anywhere from 75 to 85% of the funding of Islamophobia in America
11:47
comes from Zionistbased organizations driven by their pro-Israel anti-Palestinian sentiment. So
11:54
it's really we don't take it too personal. It's not about Islam or Muslims. Uh it's just about
11:59
demonizing people who might seem or be sympathetic to Palestinians because the worry is if people
12:05
accept Muslims as equal citizens as equal partners then their commentary might be seen or might be
12:13
heard in an equal fair way. So the goal is to uh demonize and dehumanize Muslims in America
12:19
make it difficult for them to run for office be accepted embraced in society. We thought things
12:25
have gotten better over the years and they have. numbers show that actually less and less Americans
12:30
embrace Islamophobic views. Yeah. Uh and and and throughout the last two and a half years,
12:36
meaning the beginning of the genocide and we've seen a shift in public opinion in America where
12:42
slowly but surely now actually for the first time ever in America's history and Israel's history,
12:47
there are more people who say or identify themselves as pro Palestinian than those who
12:54
identify themselves as pro-Israel. Yeah. And those numbers are even more meaningful when you
13:00
look at age groups demographically or political or ideological affiliation meaning younger people you
13:06
know the number can reach close to 70 80% of them being pro Palestinian or demanding cutting aid to
13:13
Israel. Yeah. With ideological meaning Democrats, liberals, same thing. So the pro-Israel uh groups
13:21
were very alarmed by that and and there were various leaks, various documents, very public
13:26
articles showing that when they conducted studies to see if we pushed different issues,
13:32
what would be the one topic that will distract people from from the genocide and Israel's very
13:38
unfavorable image. Now Islamophobia was the number one. Meaning if we could convince their argument
13:44
was if we can convince average Americans that there is a greater enemy you need to pay attention
13:51
to they might forget about Israel or feel that despite everything bad Israel does at least it's
13:58
helping us fight those bad Muslims in a way so we saw suddenly you know it's not organic it's almost
14:05
like a switch and that switch is usually flow of money you always follow the money lot of money coming from various pro-Israel organizations ations and we saw an increase in the funding
14:15
coming from Israel you know through the canet there were appropriation voted close to $700
14:20
million or so 715 maybe towards fixing Israel's image which we know what that means usually you
14:28
know funding through social media funding of speakers influencers being paid for posting
14:33
on social media uh organizing activist etc etc so what we've seen suddenly over the last few weeks
14:41
almost a revival reigniting of old Islamophobic tropes that we haven't seen since the post 911
14:50
era. Yeah. Again, what you said, the great replacement is basically the the Islamic invasion,
14:55
the creeping Sharia. Now, suddenly mosques are are a threat. Muslims running for office, God forbid,
15:01
right? Like running for office is a threat to to to the to the country's whatever that
15:08
uh uh description of Judeo-Christian heritage. uh targeting of Muslim students, you know,
15:13
even peacefully praying at a at a park or on the street being harassed with videos,
15:19
you know, having people running around to different places in the country, burning the Quran to kind of ignite some reaction. So, it is not organic. that is very deliberate,
15:30
very concerted to meant to create a distraction, meant to rile up the base in preparation uh
15:38
for the upcoming election that I mentioned now happening congressional midterm elections. So yes,
15:44
and by the way, you know, often times when we talk about immigration, I I just, you know,
15:49
just finished dinner now at a conference here and and someone was saying, you know, what is care doing? you know, somebody from Australia of all places telling, you know, what is care doing,
15:59
you know, regarding the immigration issue with ICE, you know, are are Muslims being supportive
16:05
of the Latino immigrant community? I said, you know, yes, Latinos are dear to us and they're
16:10
great partners and friends and my wife is Latina, so also personal for me. But also, immigration
16:17
is a Muslim issue. Thousands and thousands of Muslims are targeted through these unjust and and
16:23
brutal immigration tactics. And we saw the Somali community. The Somali community. Exactly. The the
16:28
the poster child of enemy by the president was the community that he shamefully described as garbage.
16:36
Right. The Somali community, one of the probably most active and honorable communities in America.
16:42
Uh small number, you know, 150,000 maybe in in the state of Minnesota. Yeah, but he made them
16:47
into the enemy because they fit everything hate mongers hate, you know, black African refugees,
16:56
immigrants, Muslim, you know, with Ilhan Omar, you know, being the also mah, one of the most
17:03
prominent politicians in America who happens to be Muslim and Somali also wears hijab. So,
17:08
it makes it easier for him to continuously rile up the base by giving them an easy target. So yes,
17:16
Islamophobia is also used has all always been used uh to push for uh you know what we describe as uh
17:25
unjust unfair national security related policies which now are bordering on fascism in America.
17:31
You know targeting one of the most sacred values in America and it's not religion. One of the most
17:37
sacred values in America is free speech. And now free speech in America is being targeted because
17:43
what the goal is to prevent people from freely criticizing uh human rights abuses by the state of
17:51
Israel. You know again I want to make that clear. Free speech is not being infringed to restrict
18:00
Americans right or ability to criticize their own government. You know, when you hear Secretary of
18:06
State Rubio talking about, "We will be asking people who are at the US consulates applying
18:12
for a visa to show us their social media." He specifically said, "We're going to look at their
18:17
social media's commentary on Israel." Yeah. So, you can criticize Trump, the US policies,
18:23
but the minute you criticize Israel's genocide or or or apartheid, you become somebody who should be
18:30
denied entry to the US. or if you're a student uh you you're you're you know you might be suspended
18:37
uh you know if you're a social media you will have the right to kind of control the algorithms to
18:42
make sure that any criticism of Israel is either deleted or or you know shadow banned in a way
18:50
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Driving Forces behind the Uproar against ICE
20:51
And um uh commentators have picked up on the point that Alex Pretty and Renee Good who were killed
20:56
of course by ICE uh officers were white. Uh do you think there would have been uh in particular
21:03
amongst the liberal crowd who have made a point of suggesting this is an extrajudicial killing? Would
21:09
there have been that much of an uproar if uh the uh the victims were black or Latinos? Yeah, for
21:17
for for some people of course I would say yes. Had it been uh you know somebody who's black or brown
21:23
or Muslim Yeah. it would have been they asked for it. They deserved it. Right. But I have to
21:29
say for the base for the supporters of President Trump Yeah. they didn't care. Okay. Because even a
21:36
white liberal is seen as bad as whoever else they hate. It's in that category and and all it takes
21:42
and and and one might say well not the case with everybody. True. You know obviously that's why we
21:48
we have 60 plus% saying that's not acceptable. So there must be some portion of his base saying no.
21:54
I mean, the president was told uh the father of Renee Good is actually a Trump supporter
22:01
and and that bothered him more than the fact that she was killed. Like, ah man, we you know, we hurt one of ours. So, it is it is very strange time that we live in in in the US. Like truly
22:13
there is a level of demonization today towards uh people who have a different opinion in ways
22:20
that is very unhealthy in America. And again, this is this we're not in fascism, but we're certainly
22:25
creeping closer by the day towards fascism. So, K is responsible for uh litigating and uh actioning
22:34
cases where civil liberty, civil rights are being infringed in particular of the Muslim community,
CAIRS role in Civil Rights Advocacy
22:39
but as you've said, not just exclusively the Muslim community. You're part of K California.
22:44
Just tell me a little bit about what you've been doing in relation to immigration cases and the
22:50
broader Islamophobia, the rise of Islamophobia in your state. Absolutely. And and for the viewers
22:57
interest in case they're not familiar fully with CARE, CARE is a kind of interesting organization
23:02
in the sense that we do civil rights work, but we're also an advocacy organization. Alhamdulillah's car's work as the largest civil rights and advocacy organization in
23:11
the country is national but also very local and we do services to the community by providing
23:19
legal free of charge services uh immigration for those who need to adjust their status
23:26
uh naturalize work on their visas but also civil rights for people facing discrimination bullying
23:33
etc uh by government agencies. Some of our work involves activating and advocating uh uh through
23:39
the work with the community, responding to action alerts, having people call and meet with their elected officials, local, state, and federal. We're also active in training young people with
23:51
through leadership uh programs. And a big chunk of our work is countering Islamophobia by tracking
23:58
uh the agencies and the funding behind it, but also exposing those who engage with it, whether they're media influencers or whether it's a media uh reporter or politicians or just activists.
24:11
So the work is diverse and obviously over the last two and a half years in general because there has
24:17
been an organized backlash against the Muslim community for participating in pro Palestinian
24:23
anti-genocide activism. So we saw that um although we're not the only ones and I have to say you
24:29
know credit goes to where it's due the majority of people advocating for Palestinian human rights and
24:35
dignity are not Muslim but we're the weakest link in that sense. As you said earlier, we're barely
24:41
a 1% of the population, maybe one and a half in some of the major cities, but we're certainly
24:46
not a threat to anybody. It's, you know, Muslims are uh in all walks of life, a very productive
24:52
community. You know, you go to universities, you see professors, you're going to go to hospitals. You know, although Muslims are 1 and a half% at most of the Muslim population, you know, studies
25:02
show that anywhere from 8 to 10% of doctors in America are Muslim. So they are contributing
25:08
business owners, entrepreneurs, teachers and so on. But be with that said, you know, we we still
25:17
became the easier target for that backlash because of again Israel knowing that a voice of Muslims
25:23
who understand what you know we've we've known Muslims are not were not surprised to see what Israel did what you know Israel is unleashing of it is deadly power on Palestinian something well
25:33
known to us but because of social media the rest of America got to see what's happening so that's
25:40
when it began but obviously since the uh Trump uh since Trump got elected for his second term
25:47
and started executing his campaign promises and commitments in terms of dealing with deporting
25:54
millions of people in America. Again, these are people initially he talked about the targeting the
26:00
the worst of the worst of criminals, right? And people said that's fine. You know, nobody wants
26:06
criminals regardless of whether they're citizens or undocumented. Great. Target criminals. rapist,
26:13
drug dealers and so on. But obviously as we've seen the targeting has not been against the the
26:19
criminals. It had been targeting people who work in hospitals, people who work in construction, people who uh pick the fruits and and and and you know farmlands,
26:28
etc., etc. So, it's impacting everybody and the in and the economy. K's response had been number one
26:35
strengthening our coalitions with like-minded groups and communities and there are many and
26:40
obviously it's more successful in areas where it's more diverse such as California. Yeah, that is so the grassroots level. Second is educating the community uh because Muslims like everybody else
26:51
in America is not immune to the propaganda coming from the right-wingers and the xenophobes. Meaning
26:57
some Muslims fall for this bias of, oh, these are only illegals, quote unquote, who are criminals.
27:02
They are a threat to our nation. They're taking our jobs. So, you know, it's not unusual sometimes to hear that from immigrant Muslims of all people like people who have just got citizenship maybe
27:13
a year ago and now they're talking like, "Nah, we don't need foreigners." You said, "Brother, like only a year ago you were facing the same discrimination." So educating our community about
27:23
our mandate as a as a Muslim community, you know, how Islam stresses law, yes, respect of the law,
27:30
but stresses mercy, dignity. Even even if you're dealing with somebody who shouldn't be here,
27:35
there are legal merciful way and compassionate way. Let alone that actually our immigration
27:40
system is messed up. our immigration system does not allow for a fair processing of family
27:47
members for asylum for refugees and so on. So there's that historic racism that exists in our
27:54
immigration system. So the other aspect of it is meeting with politicians. So we we help in
28:00
coalition pushing for policies that will preserve the rights of immigrants whether immigrants in
28:05
California being able to get driver licenses so they can have a normal livelihood. making sure that you know you know one of the sad part of immigration is immigration punishes not only
28:16
the person who violated the law but also their descendant their dependence meaning imagine a
28:23
parent a family deciding to escape war in in in a South American country or from Afghanistan or from
28:30
Syria and they make it to the border try to get asylum they don't get the asylum and eventually
28:35
decide to cross the border with their five kids or two kids one y old, 2-year-old. The way it is now,
28:41
a lot of these people came and lived for 7, 8, 10, 20 years without having citizenship or ability
28:49
to adjust their status. Their children event initially in California, for example, couldn't
28:55
get to colleges, couldn't get jobs because they don't have work permits. So, you know, one of
29:00
the things we asked for and lobbyed for is that these kids should have the same opportunities as
29:06
any kid in America because I mean for common sense purposes, but also for fairness. Common sense is
29:12
you don't want to push anybody to the margins of society because that's when they get recruited, grabbed into crime, gangs and all of that. Second part is fairness. These people did not these young
29:24
people did not we call them the dreamers here. these people are not responsible for what their
29:29
parents did. So they shouldn't be penalized or criminalized for that. So that's an example. Now obviously one of the big uh pushers we're putting is uh pushing uh Congress for example
29:40
there's a vote upcoming uh vote for in in the US Senate and you know basically dealing with the
29:46
funding of DHS the department of homeland security which is the government agency that oversees ICE
29:53
uh along with few other agencies CBP and CIS. So, one thing we're pushing for now is along with
30:00
other activists, many of them pro-immigration uh and civil rights organizations uh and it's
30:07
supported by a majority of the Democrats in Congress and that is to uh maybe introduce
30:12
some restrictions, some changes in the way or some almost uh preconditions before uh funding
30:18
ICE such as requiring ICE agents not to be wearing masks because that will discourage
30:24
them from committing some of these atrocities. uh maybe providing more insight, more oversight,
30:30
I mean uh more ability for the local government to hold uh and carry independent investigation
30:37
when there are charges uh and accusations of uh um violations of rights. Uh for care also for us
30:45
is using the legal system. So because care also has a a part of services, we provide immigration
30:53
uh services uh to all people. We don't ask people uh you know your your background and they come
30:59
to us uh they ask to adjust their status to work on being naturalized. Uh many of our clients who
31:06
happen to be from uh Somalia, from Afghanistan or also from Latin American countries are facing now
31:13
threats uh to their ability to be in the country even though they have work permit even though they
31:18
might have an asylum case that is pending legally. So they're in the country legally at least not yet
31:25
fully adjusted. A lot of those clients are facing challenges. So we're suing whenever we can to
31:30
make sure that they're not separated from their families that at least they get their fair day in court. Uh the main thing is raising awareness uh just being an extra voice at a time when people
31:41
are afraid to speak up against the government. You know, I I I joke because you you mentioned about
31:47
Syria and I say my parents are from Syria and my parents left Syria many years ago to escape
31:53
repression and lack of freedom in Syria when the Assad and the Bath party took over and you know
32:00
and eventually came I came to the US. My parents are US citizens now and it's sad to say Syrians
32:08
today have way more freedom than the average person in America has. And this is not how it should be. We should should have freedom both in Syria and in America. Can I ask you about the case
32:19
of uh Sister Lar Cordia who languishes in a prison after nearly a year I think. Uh she's the last of
Leqaa Kordias Unlawful Imprisonment
32:26
the Cola University demonstrators Palestinian. She went on a a pro Gaza protest and was arrested on
32:34
on uh on uh migrant irregularities or so-called irregularities. And now uh the two judges have
32:44
um ruled that she should be released and yet she isn't released. She hasn't been released. Um just
32:49
explain what's going on there. How can it be that uh this young lady remains uh in in incarceration?
32:57
Yeah. I mean this this is one of many cases that defy anything legal in America. you know,
33:05
Mahmud Khalil Resa Al Sturk in a sense. Of course, hers is a little bit more outrageous because she's
33:12
still lingering in prison in detention. Yeah. Uh the the uh the government, the US government,
33:19
the Trump administration knows I mean and it it is currently in violation of many rulings by
33:26
various US courts um because there's no way I mean there's no way to enforce these decisions for the
33:32
time being. Now obviously the biggest challenge nowadays is Palestinians are at the lowest in
33:39
terms of of sympathy level in America today. So that's why the government can get away with with
33:44
with punishing people for their free speech, not any criminal behavior without ability to challenge
33:51
that for the time being. Right. Okay. Um, I want to turn back to the the work of care generally
33:58
speaking um because um we were talking off camera about uh civil liberty, civil rights across Europe
34:06
and of course in Britain, in France in particular in Germany, we've seen the steep erosion of civil
34:12
rights. I mean in France now it's it's almost virtually impossible sometimes to practice your
34:17
Islam autonomously. uh there is a there is a lot of state apparatus that prevents someone and and
Difference Between European - US Muslim Organisation
34:24
inhibits them from uh exhibiting their Islamic uh symbols and Islamic uh Islamicness in society. No.
34:33
Um uh there is a I I would like your observation about the difference between the way the American
34:40
Muslims have organized with all of the caveats that the American Muslims are probably far more affluent uh and have far more money much more money to to organize. But with with that aside,
34:51
just the difference of what you observe of the state of European Muslims generally, British
34:56
Muslims, German, French and others, uh, and that of the the organizing, uh, capacity, let's say,
35:04
of the American Muslim. Yeah, I would love to take credit for that as Americans and American Muslims,
35:10
but there are many factors that work for us that might not exist. You know, there's a context that is important for us to keep in mind, at least for our European viewers. What makes America unique
35:21
is number one, we do have a history of civil rights movement in America where we're building
35:26
on it. We didn't come out of nowhere. We didn't start from a vacuum. To to to their credit, the
35:32
African-American, the black community in America has has has paved the way for us. you know,
35:37
we we had all we had to do is just build on their sacrifices and we we owe it to them honestly. Like
35:43
the fact that our kids don't go to segregated schools, the fact that we can vote as as people
35:49
who might not be of European descent in America is the result of their activism. So all we need
35:54
to do is just keep building on those successes and expand. Number one. Number two, America has
36:01
built in freedoms into the constitution. So it is not a political opinion, not a not subject,
36:09
at least theoretically speaking, not subject to the sentiment of the ruling party or whoever is in
36:14
in Congress or the White House. Freedom of speech, you know, first amendment, you know, free speech,
36:20
freedom of religious practice, uh separation of church and state in America is very different
36:27
than how it is understood in Europe and especially in countries like France or Belgium. Maybe for us
36:33
there is no animosity towards religion at least in America's history or psyche. Yeah. The separation
36:38
was meant at least when you read the history of it was meant to protect both from each other. You
36:45
don't want government to interfere in religion and shape it to abuse it. And you don't want a
36:50
religion, one religion to control government at the expense of other religions because
36:55
whoever wrote the constitution or at least founded America, they were escaping religious persecution
37:02
in Europe. So there's that sense. Thirdly or fourthly, I forgot the number now is the fact what how is America made up? America is made up of unless you're an indigenous Native American,
37:13
everybody in America is an immigrant. you know, it's just a matter of how or when, you know, how
37:18
many layers or levels before that, whether it's me and Biden or me and Trump, you know, we're all
37:26
immigrants, you know, he just maybe came a couple of generations earlier. So, nobody can say this
37:32
is my country. The only ones who deserve to say that, and it is actually basically are the Native
37:37
American people. So for us because of all of these factors it makes our ability to work through the
37:44
system easier in that sense. Then you add to the internal factors and that is the American
37:50
Muslim community tends to be more affluent uh more educated in terms of degrees and than than many in
37:58
in maybe their European counterparts. Obviously it changes in America depending on the state and
38:05
uh the demographics etc etc. But with all of that, there was the ability for the Muslim American
38:10
community, and this is new, let's face it. I mean, it's not like we've been celebrating that those great political successes for generations. It is post 911 when American Muslims realize that,
38:21
you know, unless we organize and speak up for ourselves, nobody else is going to do it. Uh, and then years and years of activism happening around the country. Somali did an amazing job,
38:32
African-American Muslims. It's not it's no surprise that actually the first Muslim to
38:37
be elected to Congress was Keith Ellison, African-American Muslim, because there's a level of acceptance because they're seen as, you know, Americans, not as others or foreigners
38:50
or immigrants. It was easier, you know, with the name Keith Ellison, you know, not Ahmed, Muhammad,
38:55
etc. initially you know and it wasn't a surprise that the next two members uh to be elected uh were
39:04
uh sister Rashid as a Palestinian uh you know again the issue of Palestine always
39:11
always mobilizes people and then the second one Ilhan Omar who is also Somali you know the
39:18
Somali community has organized in in in faster ways then you have Andre Carson of course who
39:23
is also African-American so for the American Muslim community, we have those advantages, but also we all realize that we have to use the tools of the system that we that exist today. we
39:34
can't uh you know from my conversations and visits uh uh with European Muslims whether in Europe or
39:43
when we meet at summits and and conferences I can tell you and again I don't want to overeneneralize
39:50
the concept of embracing their nationality is way deeper in in the US than in other places at least
39:59
among the immigrants we're talking about it is not unusual for an immigrant American Muslim to feel
40:05
as an American because again for the most part we are embraced for the most part we are in societies
40:12
you know despite the loud voices of Islamophobia but that's not the mainstream the main you know you see Muslims in all walks of life in every you know companies they're CEOs you see them
40:21
uh Uber drivers you see them as professors you see them as doctors you see them in media you see them
40:27
you know even in Hollywood nowadays so it's not unusual uh to feel that I belong right despite
40:34
all the pushes and push backs that happened in Europe. You know, I was sharing with somebody
40:39
when I visited France a few years back and I was invited to speak to the at community events about
40:47
what care does and how to organize. But I also remember doing an interview on on French TV and
40:54
after I finished I I you know asked the cameraman and the people helping with the the sound and
41:00
audio visuals and you know where are you from or the first ones I'm Algerian the second one
41:06
Moroccan and Tunisian forgot and I asked him like oh when did you come to the US said no no I'm one
41:12
one of them was second generation the other one was third generation and they still didn't
41:18
identify themselves as French. And I asked that question and I didn't mean it to be judgmental. Said why don't you why don't you say like Algerian French or said they don't refer to us as French.
41:28
they French people they still call us Algerian despite the fact I was born you know I don't
41:34
know how much to what extent it is in the UK but I think the identity and plus we're way far away
41:40
from the Middle East and Pakistan and India and you know for those immigrants they don't get to travel that often as maybe if you're in Germany or in the UK it's much easier to keep those links
41:51
so there are many factors but the main thing is organize the main thing is know that this is for
41:56
us it's a mandate it's a Muslim Islamic faith mandate to engage in your society and do good
42:02
where you're at and do good not just for yourself and your family or your community to everybody else whether through your profession but the best way to to do good is to get involved through civic
42:14
engagement to make sure good people are elected because good people don't engage in you know
42:20
ICE raids that kill people and don't engage in supporting genocide in foreign countries. So for
42:25
us, I think the main thing is, you know, look at the system. If if the government provides grants
42:32
uh to uh community- based organizations to help them fight hate against the Jewish community,
42:39
to fight anti-semitism, to fight antilack racism. That means American Muslims should have affair.
42:46
It's it begins with us recognizing we have the exact same rights as others. It begins with us
42:52
saying I'm not a secondass citizen. And when I say that, I deny the right for others to treat me as
43:00
a secondass citizen. And I would hope inshallah to see uh uh our brothers and sisters in the rest
43:06
of the world, Australia, in Europe, in Canada and Canada mashallah they are very successful
43:13
uh organized to understand a couple of things. This is their home and they don't need me to tell
43:19
them that they know this is their home. uh but also their communities, their countries and the
43:25
um and mankind really depend on us playing our role. We have an obligation in front of Allahh.
43:32
We're going to stand up all of us on the day of judgment. We're going to stand up in front of Allah and Allah will hold each one accountable based on what he entrusted us with. money,
43:45
time, life on this earth, knowledge, but also tools. And the dem democracy that we have and
43:52
we have access to is an ama is a trust that Allahh bestowed upon us. And he will ask us,
43:59
how did you use your vote? And I would hate to say, I didn't vote. I didn't think I can make a difference. When we know we can make a difference, we could prevent wars. We can prevent xenophobia.
44:09
and and and this is an area where I feel we Muslims need to work on ourselves. We can't
44:14
be apathetic. We cannot afford to be apathetic as Muslims and as citizens of our respective
44:20
countries. You used the F-word previously, fascism. Um and you argued that you scared
Is The Trump Administration Fascist?
44:26
me. I thought I don't you said that um the Trump administration is not descending into you don't
44:32
believe at this stage is descending into fascism, but of course a lot of commentators argue it is.
44:38
you know, to have masked uh unidentified people walking around in the streets of Chicago or LA
44:45
arresting uh apprehending citizens on the streets. Uh that doesn't look like the ordinary workings
44:53
of a democratic and inverted comm state. Um do you still believe in law because there is a an
45:01
assumption now being made that there's a broader project here. The project isn't just to clamp down
45:07
on some illegal migrants. It's actually to erode the uh the state and the rule of law institutions,
45:15
the rule of law, the institutions of the state uh and uh to subvert uh the democratic norms that
45:23
um at least for now domestically uh American citizens have prided themselves with. Very good
45:30
point. And actually there are theories out there and and that the the facts speak for the fact
45:36
that maybe these are not theories anymore. Maybe they're realities. You know, the theory is Trump
45:41
and the Trump administration is pushing towards clashes short of a civil war, maybe insurgency,
45:48
so he can declare anti-insurgency measures up to martial law. Now, what happens if that if that's
45:55
the case? What's happening this year? election suspend the election basically and if the if he
46:03
suspends the election also two years from now is the general election for which his term has ended
46:10
would be by then and he couldn't be running for an extra third term that's his second term. I mean
46:17
the theory is is that what he's trying is to to cause enough disruption in civil society in safety
46:24
where that could be seen and and maybe not only seen and maybe accepted by people who say you know
46:30
what this is we want to keep security we want to keep stability I think we're far from that I don't
46:36
think that's going to happen you know surprises could happen but yes and I didn't say we're you
46:41
know we're not creeping I said we're creeping into fascism we're not there yet meaning the fact that I can still speak and complain about it and and and thousands and maybe tens of thousands of
46:52
people including politicians, activists without being arrested and beaten up, you know, yet,
46:59
you know, hope hopefully that continues. We're not there yet. I I I I and I do believe enough people
47:04
even among Republicans uh who are not happy with that direction because we've seen it, you know,
47:09
whether with Pence in the fir first term, you know, Vice President Pence and there are many like
47:15
him and we see a rift happening even within his base, you know, with the Tucker Tucker Carlson, with the Candace Owens, not only disagreeing, you know, Rogan uh not only disagreeing on the issue
47:27
of Palestine and Israel and all that, but also on the tactics. You know, now people are saying,
47:32
you know, Republicans are known uh that they've always opposed a big government, a powerful or too
47:39
powerful of a government because they like to give freedom to the states, to the individuals. So even
47:44
as they say uh as as they watch our government become more forceful, you know, more heavy-handed,
47:51
they're also having second thoughts. So I I do believe there is a chance and I don't want to speak in a partisan way because you know I'm here speaking as a care representative but also
48:02
some blame should be shifted to the Democrats. I mean I happen to be a Democrat but as I said I'm not here on partisan level who empowered ICE over the years you know ICE was formed
48:14
after 9/11 as a tool to fight terrorism you know through immigration policies and it was
48:20
funded and fueled and strengthened by various a various uh uh presidential and congressional
48:28
uh parties whoever was in in charge. So Democrats did it, you know, the various administrations and
48:35
various congressional, you know, majority did it. So the funding has happened until ICE is so
48:40
much powerful. You know, obviously it almost doubled in size under Trump with his recent
48:46
push. But deportations have been happening, sub family separations have been happening even under
48:52
the Democrats. When you normalize such behavior, you you end up with that. and and Democrats also
48:58
have to recognize that just because people are unhappy with Trump, it's not an automatic vote
49:06
for the Democratic party or candidates, Democratic candidates in the upcoming election because there
49:12
are still many disenfranchised voters among the Democratic base, progressives, young people,
49:19
Muslims, Arabs who are unhappy with the way the Democratic Party addressed the genocide
49:26
in Palestine. So unless the Democratic Party takes measures to say we are better, you can't just say
49:35
we're not Trump. You have to show that we are better. We stand for human rights. we stand for
49:40
human dignity and prove it and take ownership of of you know the the the dark part of our history
49:48
where the Democratic Party leadership you under Biden and later on uh you know candidate Camela
49:54
Harris or VP Camela Harris justified and and accepted and protected the genocide. So that's,
50:01
you know, internal politics for us because nothing is guaranteed. The unhappiness with the Republican
50:06
party is not going to be an automatic vote for the opponents. Would you like to comment on uh uh the
50:14
Texas Governor Greg Abbott who in November of last year he designated Ka Council on American Islamic
Designating CAIR as a Foreign Terrorist Organisation
50:21
Relations a foreign terrorist organization. What is the implication? I mean it's laugh before of
50:26
course but what is the implication of such a designation on your activities in Texas and and the US in general? Sure. Uh I mean the governor Abbott uh Greg Abbott basically has had has has
50:39
had a long history of targeting Muslims especially over the last two years. You know, again,
50:44
freedom of speech, infringement, uh repeating the same nonsense, you know, creeping Sharia, Sharia
50:52
courts, uh uh Muslims are invading our areas, you know, targeting mosques such as Epic, the East
50:59
Plano Islamic Center, uh Muslim mortuaries and so on and so forth. So, it has been, you know,
51:06
it's election year. He's, you know, he's running for office again. So nothing nothing riles up
51:12
voters more than fear and fear-mongering. So he knows it works unfortunately uh in a state like
51:18
Texas uh and you know his recent one of his recent targeting of Muslims was by designating care Texas
51:26
as a foreign terrorist organization which doesn't have much legal impact. You know it doesn't shut
51:34
you down. It doesn't prevent people from donating, people working at care, working with care,
51:39
uh collaborating with care. It is just a way to show his pro-Israel supporters and he's a
51:46
hardcore Christian Zionist. Uh and you know, showing his base that, hey, I'm your best ally.
51:53
Any other opponent would not deliver. Uh obviously we still take that seriously and then we did file
51:58
a lawsuit against uh uh him and and the state uh which forced him to come back and say, "Oh,
52:05
we didn't mean Care Texas. You're talking about Care National. You know, Care Texas is fine. We have no issue." Again, it it's not going to impact, you know, obviously we're gonna I'm
52:14
very confident we'll be able to win back uh uh you know uh the the the the right to organize our
52:21
community to speak up against uh the injustices being committed by the administration and by him
52:27
too. This is a tactic of intimidation against the Muslim communities. Again, we look at it as part
52:33
of the ongoing Islamophobia shutting down uh of any voices uh and off of any voices that speak up
52:41
uh for immigrants rights against Trump abusers, speak up against Islamophobia in the country. I
52:48
was speaking to a brother recently uh who lives in the United States and he's seriously considering
52:54
moving to a another country to move into a Muslim country. I don't know how big a phenomenon that
Are Muslims Migrating due to Islamaphobia?
53:00
is. Of course, across Europe, that is a big phenomenon. You know, the amount of French Muslims who have left France. It's phenomenal. And and even in the UK, for all sorts of reasons,
53:09
economic, but also Islamophobia, young Muslims are opting to move elsewhere. I mean, do you see that
53:16
to be a growing phenomenon from your side? I mean I you know again I I'm sure there's no numbers to
53:22
corroborate this but um anecdotally I am seeing that a larger number of Muslims are are migrating
53:31
from Western countries and possibly even America. I mean I will start by saying you know everybody
53:37
knows what's best for themselves and their families. Like I'm not going to judge people because some people have unique situations where maybe they're being harassed in a violent way,
53:46
in a threatening way. you know mentally we can't you know everybody has a limit how much we can take and physically if we worry about you know in general I'm against that trend because this
53:57
is our country America is our country you know for French Muslims that's their country and you know
54:03
we can't give up the minute we feel you know we're threatened because that is exactly the goal of the
54:10
Islamophobes and the xenophobes is you know to make us feel unwelcome to the point where we give
54:16
up and and go somewhere else. This is our country. But if somebody wants to try somewhere else as an
54:23
expat uh because maybe their kids are on an age, they need to go to college somewhere, they want
54:28
to teach them Arabic, they want to connect, make sure they connect with their roots in Pakistan. I welcome that. I mean, we're we're American Muslims, but we're also holders of multiple
54:39
identities, and they don't contradict and conflict with each other. You know, a person can be Syrian
54:44
and Arab or Kurd and American and Muslim and immigrant and a lot of things and celebrate all
54:50
of that and that is okay. For me, my main thing is I've I've seen personally a lot of people mo
54:55
moving to uh Turkey, Turkey and and and recently more Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan. uh the
55:05
numbers are not too large in a way that it you know would be alarming but for me just the concept
55:12
itself uh we have to address it we have to shift away as I said for if people leave for personal
55:18
reasons for 6 months for a year maybe they got a nice job teaching at a university and they want to
55:24
try it maybe they want to save some money because you know their own taxes are much less if you work
55:29
overseas and that happens you know Americans of all backgrounds you know millions of Americans
55:35
have worked in in Saudi Arabia and in Germany and etc. So that is not not unusual but I don't
55:41
want it to be on the basis of I give up. I can no longer I don't feel welcome. It's okay not to feel
55:48
welcome because somebody is trying to do that. But it shouldn't become how we operate in in in in my
55:55
opinion. If anything, what we should be stressing on our communities is actually that is the moment
56:01
to dedicate more time to make make America or make our respective countries more welcoming of
56:07
all people where we push to celebrate and embrace the diversity in the country. And not only that,
56:13
push back against those hatemongers. They are the ones who should feel uh uh to be the wrong
56:19
ones. They're the ones who need to change, not us. Uh, one final question. When last time, as I said at the beginning of this interview, uh, we spoke about Syria, and I think it was just
56:28
prior to your you were thinking about returning to Syria and visiting the new the new Syria,
56:33
the new liberated Syria. Uh, I think you have gone back since then and um, I just want to
56:39
get your your your observations, but with a particular question in mind. Um, of course,
56:45
you know, with all of the things that you've said so far about how uh we living in the west, you know, we are responsible for the countries in which we live and and the communities with
56:54
which we serve, Muslims and non-Muslims. And that's completely true. But of course, there's a responsibility towards the Muslim um and and Muslims in general and Syrian Muslims,
How to Support Syria Beyond Humanitarian Aid
57:05
but it's not exclusively. These are Syria is is for all of us. It's it's a concern for all of us.
57:12
I I suppose uh American Muslims are probably at the highest eb when it comes to affluence. How can
57:19
um you support tangibly and practically beyond humanitarian aid, I suppose? How can you support
57:28
uh Syria rebuild itself after these last 15 years of horrendous war? Yeah. Yeah. I've had the
57:35
pleasure of visiting back in July. It took some of my uh kids, you know, who were willing to be
57:41
taking the risk as they called it. Others were too afraid. Pretty safe. It's pretty safe. Obviously,
57:47
it's a country recovering from war, recovering from tyranny and dictatorship. So, it's a long way before full recovery. Uh but people are very hopeful. People are excited despite the pain,
57:58
despite what they've lost. And every Syrian has lost loved ones, lost property. But
58:04
they're hopeful. There's a new government that is a reflection of the people. You know, a government
58:10
that includes uh uh young people from the country is not based on a tribe or sect or it's it's you
58:17
know people who uh are uh professionals, experts in their fields who want to rebuild the country.
58:25
uh there is an acceptance in the region maybe with the exception of Israel of of the new government and they're trying their best you know Arab governments Turkish government they're trying
58:35
to help even the US you know as much as as I I criticize Trump and his policies overseas domestic
58:44
in Syria his position has been reasonable actually has been uh you know maybe shielding Syria from
58:52
Israel's intervention and interfere appearance doesn't mean Israel has stopped. You know, from
58:57
from the day after Assad has has been removed. Israel has conducted over a thousand maybe, 1100
59:04
raids against Syria, has occupied some territory uh you know near the Golan Heights which is
59:11
remains under Israeli occupation and has insisted on splitting up Syria in in based on sects and
59:19
ethnicities and continues to fund and push various separatist groups. So, Israel continues to do
59:25
that, but uh the Trump administration, you know, maybe because of the influence of and pressure or
59:32
promises from leaders in Turkey, Qatar and and Saudi Arabia and Syria has has been in a way
59:40
helping Syria be more stable and united. Now, with that said, what is our role for us as as human
59:47
beings, as Muslims, as activists? Definitely the existence and the success of a democratic Syria is
59:57
in our interest. Number one, there are people who live there. Uh we want them to thrive. Number two,
1:00:04
it counters all the false uh uh imagery and false claims made by the supporters of Israel
1:00:12
and the Islamophobes that uh Muslims cannot have democracy. You know there's something built in
1:00:19
intrinsing about Muslims that they can't have democracy and we all know that's complete lie because much of these dictatorships have been supported by western governments and and and
1:00:29
Israel and its supporters. So you know democracy you know or preventing democracy in the in the
1:00:36
Middle East is a an Israeli policy. It's not a secret one. They've made it clear they prefer to
1:00:41
deal with dictatorships. dictators are easier to maneuver because you control them. You give them
1:00:47
whatever they need, which is security and staying in power and they will be your heavy hand against
1:00:53
uh you know people in that region who all want to see Palestinians free on their land. So what
1:00:59
can we do is help support that democracy. Uh how to do that? Lobby our governments to make sure
1:01:05
that we continue to help Syria rebuild. we visit, you know, that's best way is to get to know about
1:01:11
a country and support its economy is to go there and visit and engage. And for those of us who are
1:01:17
Muslim and I know a major uh segment of your viewership obviously is of the Muslim faith,
1:01:25
yeah, Syria is so rich with Islamic history. You go there, you know, from the mosque,
1:01:31
from the mosque where the great companion, may Allah be pleased with him, you know, buried there.
1:01:38
I had a chance to go and visit Muawi from the the mothers of the believers, Mal and Habib, from
1:01:47
Salah's grave. You know, everything that we've learned about in our history that we celebrate, that we feel emotionally and spiritually attached to, uh, you'll you'll find a connection to it when
1:01:58
you when you visit Syria and let alone the food is great. People are veryospitable. Take advantage.
1:02:05
Go there before people become, you know, in a way tourist oriented, you know, then then,
1:02:11
you know, maybe they become fake like we see in many touristy places around the world. you know,
1:02:17
some place very affordable. The economy is, you know, still struggling. So, your dollar,
1:02:23
your pound, your euro would go a long way uh in in, you know, enjoying a good time with the
1:02:28
family. Strengthening the bond, you know, at the at the end of the day, yes, we're proud Americans,
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we're proud British citizens, we're proud French, we're also we're also, again, it's not mutually
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exclusive. We're part of an ummah. and the thriving of one part of the ummah, the joy of
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one part of um brings joy to us and it's even more joyful if we contribute towards that embmentment
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and that thriving for them. So, alhamdulillah, I I I think Syria is on the right track. uh you
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know maybe what we need to do also be a voice of the Syrian people and their struggle and their
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and their aspiration for freedom and democracy uh under their new leadership and of government. Why
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why do I why do I mean by that? What do I mean by that? I mean currently there is a campaign
1:03:19
of misinformation against Syria happening coming from you know not only the Zionist uh Israeli side
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but also coming from sometimes leftist un you know uninformed uh groups uh people who are Marxist for
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example who are depicting uh the struggle today against secessionist Marxist PKK oriented groups
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and trying to conflate that as if this is a conflict between Arabs and Kurds. You know,
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Arabs and Kurds in Syria have been and you know for centuries and will continue to be
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brothers and sisters, you know, actually the closest communities to each other. But such
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misrepresentation unfortunately undermines Syria's image and you know maybe the public support for
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Syria. So educating about what Syria is, educating about some of the attacks coming. You know,
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there are Arab governments that are not happy to see democracy in the region because then
1:04:20
their own local people would say, "Hey, how about us?" So Arab dictatorships and their paid media,
1:04:26
which is pretty powerful in the Middle East, continue to depict democracy as a bad thing,
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depict the result of the revolution in Syria as a bad thing. So be the voice and our voice
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matters as we as we've learned uh throughout the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Thank you so much and I
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I really think we can learn a lot from the work that you have been doing in Ken and uh the work
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that the Muslim community in America have been doing to organize themselves. So really Jazak
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and I I wish really there is more crosspollination really between the efforts of of western Muslims
1:05:04
inshallah but Jazak thank you so much for your time. My pleasure. Thanks for hosting me.
1:05:10
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