Ep 282. - Gaza and the Rupture in International Order | Nurul Izzah Anwar
This week on The Thinking Muslim, we have a candid interview with Nurul Izzah Anwar, president of a leading party in Malaysia, daughter of the prime minister, and a long-term politician. We openly discuss the fate of the world order after Gaza.
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
This week on the thinking Muslim, we have a candid interview with Nurza Anoir, president of the leading party in Malaysia, daughter of the prime minister and long-term
0:09
politician. We openly discuss the fate of the world order after Gaza. Because we are living
0:16
in a postc colonial construct, there's a renewed talk about Asian values. Mark Carney last week
0:23
uh prime minister of Canada gave a speech at Davos and he declared that there's a
0:28
rupture in international politics. Jared Kushner like announcing this Riviera. I
0:35
can't imagine dealing with ICE if I were to live in America. The difference between
0:40
treatment of Ukraine and and of course Palestine understand that there's more than meets the eye.
0:46
We're not being told our own histories. The so-called board of peace is not really a peace initiative designed to legitimize disposition uh commercialize destruction. The European Union
0:56
stays silent. Sharia is all about justice, about mercy, wisdom and the public good and
1:09
it's really a pleasure to have you on our show, the thinking Muslim. Alhamdulillah. Thank you very much for having me. It's um it's an honor actually and I hope that we can add on to the various
1:19
other amazing conversations that the podcast has. Alhamdulillah. No, I I think I think today's going
1:26
to be a very interesting conversation. Actually, I want you're a leading politician in Malaysia and
1:32
Subhan Allah. in so many ways. Uh many Muslim women around the world see yourself and other
1:37
Muslim politicians, women politicians as models uh of uh aspiring and politicians who uh who have
1:46
a very firm ground in in in Islam. And I want to explore that as we uh as we proceed today. I want
1:53
to talk about um Malaysia and its place in the world in Southeast Asia in its region. but also
International Rupture and Revival of Asian Values
2:00
uh what many commentators term a revival of Asian values and what that really means and how that
2:07
uh connects with uh what we understand to be Islamic values. But maybe if we start with
2:13
something quite contemporary. Mark Carney last week uh prime minister of Canada gave a speech
2:18
at Davos and he declared that there's a rupture in international politics and of course he was citing
2:25
uh the failure of coordination with the United States and the Trump administration as one of
2:31
the reasons why the western liberal world order is in his understanding is rupturing. It's declining.
2:40
uh from where you sit uh in Malaysia with the tensions that exist of course between China and
2:47
America but as as well as the the rise of the east as a phenomenon as an economic power. Um
2:54
how do you observe that statement or assess the statement made by Mark Carney? I think there are
3:00
three things that we can touch upon. The first is of course even though it's encouraging it's
3:10
also very important to see what happens next and the congruence of in terms of the values
3:19
we espouse and the actions we actually take is very crucial and important because you're
3:26
looking at at the same venue someone like Jared Krishna right announcing this Riviera
3:38
um on the remains uh skeletal remains and ongoing genocide unleashed upon the survivors Palestinian
3:45
survivors. So, of course, you want to make sure that this call to action is is able to be followed
3:55
up by support from other nations, especially the global majority, but also um reflected
4:05
through how we decide on economic policies and how we push back against puditive tariffs.
4:14
Um and of course how we speak up and protect lives regardless whether they're of the color white or
4:23
brown or black. Um so that's the first point. So it's encouraging but I think more need is to be
4:29
done. Yeah. And uh number two is the fact that um the world has really spiral out of control.
4:42
you see the international um you know framework of law and order uh even the basic premise of
4:50
rule of law is not just being destroyed but I think what's worse is reality check showcases
5:01
the UN security council now validating the board of peace so for me this brings an imminent danger
5:10
not just on on Palestinians but actually you know next is going to be Greenland and then where does
5:18
it stop stop right so and the third is knowing this stark reality what do we as Muslims and I
5:28
don't mean just governments because if you depend on that key uh sole stakeholder not many things
5:36
will move so how do we as part of the ummah find spaces to synergize not just with those who are
5:45
advocating for more progressive policies, those who are from the left, those who are
5:52
from I mean are we even making network um sorry concrete networks across uh between Malaysia and
6:00
South Africa or even Ireland for that matter. So for me the possibilities are endless and
6:07
for Southeast Asia as a nation as nations which have survived not just the genocide. Cambodia saw
6:15
a quarter of its population decimated uh who escaped colonization whether it's Indonesia,
6:23
Malaysia. It's really important for us to take stock of these realities but more importantly
6:31
to plan and strategically to make sure that uh the future will not remain as bleak as as it is today.
6:43
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8:43
I mean you make mention there of of Gaza and of course what happened after October 7th the last two and a half years has been appalling has been heart-wrenching for so many of us around the
8:53
world and uh to its credit Malaysians and Malaysia has been at the forefront of speaking out against
9:00
the genocide and that's really been uh amazing to see from from a Muslim perspective. I mean,
The Impact of Gaza on Politicians
9:06
how has Gaza uh impacted how has the moment of this genocide, this live stream genocide impacted
9:14
your calculus, the calculus of politicians uh in Malaysia going forward, especially when thinking
9:21
about uh relationships with perpetrators or those who condoned or stayed silent,
9:28
the European Union comes to mind, stayed silent about these atrocities. You know when when people
9:34
mention the date October 7, I always uh recall the fact that you know history didn't begin on
9:42
that day. Yeah. There are decades of uh collected confirmed evidence-based history in terms of an
9:52
ongoing occupation um the pledge the complete um ruining of human dignity and you know even
10:02
uh former American President Jimmy Carter called it likened it to an open air prison. So I think we
10:11
have to also stand tall in reiterating this this truths because we are living in a postc colonial
10:19
construct where whether is the economic system whether is the political systems everything's
10:25
governed by what the western front wants and because of this it's it's a bigger challenge
10:33
right for us to to kind of push back or to rise above Now, I think for Malaysia, alhamdulillah,
10:42
historically, regardless of uh our uh political partisanship, we have, you know, supported the
10:53
the the, you know, the the the movement or uh the Palestinian cause. Um, and I think what's
11:02
important also is to look at it from a more holistic manner. How do you help? How do you
11:09
support? Not just through foreign policy, but with the refugees that are nearest to you. We all know
11:19
most nations in Southeast Asia have a long way to go. Yeah. To improve on this front. And I think
11:26
uh the other bits is of course for Malaysia um as many other nations in Southeast Asia,
11:33
we're deeply dependent on trade and that leaves us in a vulnerable state because of course we talk
11:41
about right there are risks that are associated with every action that's taken. So that's why I
11:48
feel this has to be a longer game. Yeah. If if we talk about right now, alhamdulillah,
11:54
as in people's eyes are are are more open, people are seeing the truth for what it is.
12:01
And uh the sheer hypocrisy and um in terms of what's being unleashed in Gaza for me,
12:11
it's very telling on what's to come elsewhere if we don't have the courage to fight back.
12:18
And I'm just a bit shocked sometimes um because there's so many enablers if I can speak plainly
12:30
and sometimes I I think this is our challenge whether it's through our conversations through
12:36
our engagement through our dayto-day decision making is to showcase there is always a choice
12:43
whether it's to choose submission or to push for sovereignity. Now Cambodia and Indonesia have made
12:53
their decision. I hope they are able to change it. I have a lot of respect uh for Cambodia. Not many
13:01
people know they were civilizational power that gave birth to Uncle Wat. Right. This is a decision
13:09
to join the border piece. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Yes. It's okay. It's okay. I just, you know,
13:14
it it it's a it's a very uh troubling development. Not not so much for us, of course, you know,
13:20
but I think more so for for their own uh survival and their own ability to determine their future.
13:29
So this is why we cannot stop from persuading from engaging from trying to influence because
13:35
at the end of the day that's how our prophet Nabi Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam how he spread
13:41
the faith right so I think Islam anchors uh at least my ability in uh to kind of make sense
13:50
of the ongoing pillage and to understand that how do we channel the outrage the frustration
13:59
uh to some u an action that's more coordinated, concrete and strategic. Yeah. Can I can I ask you
14:07
to spell out um your uh the challenge uh with the board of peace? Um why do you find that to
14:14
be so problematic because some would argue uh and maybe that's the argument of Cambodia and
Evaluating The Intentions of The Board of Peace
14:20
Indonesia that it's sometimes better to be at the table than to be away from the table.
14:25
I mean, what's your what are your uh how do you evaluate uh the intentions of this board of peace?
14:33
So there's a grouping a loose grouping of of ours in Malaysia uh represented by myself um as as
14:41
head of polity the think tank uh the third world network um and uh there's a few others from the
14:48
Asian parliamentarians of human rights Charles Santiago and we basically issued a statement
14:53
uh to be released actually I'm releasing it first on the podcast. Oh wow. That the the the so-called board of peace is not really a peace initiative. I think it's important to
15:03
understand that it is a permanent concentration of power designed to legitimize disposition
15:09
uh commercialize destruction and and convert grave breaches of international law into a branded
15:15
property development project. So it also weakens of course United Nations right in in a sense is
15:21
it a rubber stamp now for for things that have been decided on by uh a president of the US. So by
15:28
appointing himself chairman for life and granting himself the authority to select his own successor,
15:34
it's it's a self-perpetuating body um devoid of democratic mandate, legal accountability
15:40
or international legitimacy. So clearly this is a problem. Yeah. So I would say like sometimes
15:47
um the perception is the threats of tariffs, economic uh sanctions, boycott have pushed
15:56
countries but where is the solidarity right? So I feel we need to kind of work faster to kind
16:04
of showcase there's always alternatives. I'm not saying that you know I think it's important for
16:09
us to also remove judgment in a sense when we deal with each other when we try to create a network of
16:16
solidarity um but by the same token we also have to address the key problems that that's clearly
16:27
um coming from this initiative and uh I think we basically uh ask that the states that are
16:35
participy debate to kind of rethink this decision. Can I um I I think it's it's fair to say and and
16:44
uh forgive me for saying this, but you are one of the rare Muslim politicians, senior Muslim politicians who very openly cites her Islamic ethos as one of the motivations,
16:54
if not the motivation behind behind her politics. And I find that you know I find that really really
17:01
uh uh truly inspirational in a way because um uh often uh it is the case where even devout Muslims
17:10
when they enter politics they feel they need to embrace a Machavelian approach to politics and of
Understanding Maqasid
17:17
often uh they dispense with their Islam and their Islamic ethos. Now, I've heard you speak a number
17:24
of times where you've cited the Islamic concept of Makasid. Uh, can you explain what Makasid is
17:31
is and why that undergurs your uh imagination of of politics and and how you conduct yourself
17:41
uh on a on a daily basis in your in your position. Makasid was a very popular concept in Malaysia. Uh
17:48
I think she Dr. Jaser Auda uh is influential not just in Malaysia but also influenced policies in
17:56
Indonesia. He was based also in Brunai and in Singapore and actually spoke in some of the
18:03
recordings um under the opaces of the MUI's office in Singapore. Yeah. So alhamdulillah you know I
18:11
think engagement with with such uh luminaries um of al- kardawi you know he was given the mal hijra
18:23
um award in the year 2008 if I'm not mistaken so growing up I I've had the rare opportunity to to
18:33
meet and engage and of course one of the books that I've read before I joined active politics was f jihad So I think it's um to be fair it's also my community right I I'm so lucky
18:45
in a sense alhamdulillah that we've had this kind of engagement and exposure um to these wonderful
18:52
scholars and why Sharia is important because makasid you know is the higher objectives of the
18:58
Sharia and remember the first few pages of Jasa's book where he quoted like Sharia is all about
19:06
justice about mercy wisdom and the public good and any ruling that brings us towards injustice
19:16
can't be the Sharia right and I think it's it's um it was like kind of helping us understand that fe
19:24
you know it can change based on the I have to be very careful in a sense um what what sashi
19:30
reminds us because it's it's you know in a sense throughout history can be wrong can be right but
19:37
um we always guided by by by religion and and the Quran and of course the prophetic sunnah. So I
19:43
think um I don't know I faith saved me uh you know my religion saved me darkest moments that
19:50
that that's it right. So it's it's just something that you keep going to and um it's it it's just I
20:00
I remember Dr. Tah White came to Malaysia. He just spoke to he led us for Omrah and he he he came and
20:07
spoke at the press prime minister's residence and who was saying you asked him why do you be why are you so confident because I access to the truth you know alhamdulillah the dean it's so
20:17
that confidence is not you alone you based on your egotistical um self but it's actually derived from
20:26
the fact that you have access to the truth now the challenge is of course the sikma how do you
20:33
utilize as wisdom to engage with the rest and you know we we we formulated oh sorry we kind
20:39
of came and I you know part of the founded a multi-racial party and the guiding principle
20:49
was really you know al-hujarat in a sense you want to make sure that you engage andu
20:56
becomes that kind of guiding moral compass how you engage with the the rest but it is not easy So,
21:04
I guess um you know I I have to thank the fact that I'm Malaysian, right? Sometimes at the end
21:09
of the day that space gives you um the ability to articulate these things, but you know, we're not
21:17
an in and finished product. There are challenges. uh perhaps there are room there's room to improve
21:23
in terms our relationship with the non-Muslims in terms of space of listening to them engaging
21:29
in understanding how they feel as minorities so it's um it's an ongoing process and it allow you
21:37
have to have a healthy deal of empathy but the massid provides the framework right because you
21:46
understand okay these objectives preservation of life preser preservation of the dean first
21:52
and foremost a preservation of of family and the wealth the the of of society. So these things I
21:59
think um really provide the framework of which we built upon and we plan our policies. Um sometimes
22:07
of course governments get it wrong. This is uh the norm and you have to also do your bit to provide
22:13
constructive criticism. I'm I'm often uh I'm I'm from the west. I'm from Britain and as you know
22:19
whenever Islam and politics is cited by any of the western papers it's usually cited in a very in a
Navigating Engagement of Religion and Politics
22:27
horrific way you know and and sometimes often examples aberrations are used ISIS in Islamic
22:34
State and al-Qaeda whatever these are used to depict uh the the challenge that exists or the
22:40
problems or the extremes that come about when you mix uh religion and politics from where I'm from
22:47
what I'm hearing from you is is that there is an alternative way by which Muslim politicians can
22:55
engage with with Islam like spell out that fear that some Westerners may have uh when when hearing
23:04
a Muslim politician like yourself uh citing Islam so readily. To be fair, I I think it's going to be
23:12
very challenging. You know, I I always I always marvel at the fact the communication uh kind
23:20
of strengths, you know, you guys communicate so effectively um Muslims in the west, but it also
23:26
comes from the fact that you have to overcome so much prejudice. You have to overcome so much
23:32
um Islamophobia. I mean, I can't imagine dealing with ICE if I were to live in America as a Muslim.
23:40
So for me, Subhan Allah, you know, sometimes we all have our respective journeys and challenges.
23:47
And one of the things that helps me a lot is the the the long arc of history to understand
23:55
our history. And this means we have to delve deep. You mentioned ISIS, you mentioned I mean Alqaaida.
24:03
Now we need to actually um kind of showcase or understand um the the the linkages with
24:18
um certain security apparatus in the global north in empowering these groups. and Mahmud Mani
24:26
um his book uh good Muslim versus bad Muslim was so helpful and I felt that if more of us
24:35
not just understood the connections or even um documentaries such as the power of nightmares oh
24:45
that was a really good one uh you know but Mark Curtis I think it was yes yes Mark Curtis but I
24:51
mean I'm a late comer uh so I always uh say you know Tariq Ali Eduardo Gallaliano I mean
24:59
um Azhmed it's so important to understand that we are living post you know this postcolonial
25:08
construct that really deliberates our ability to even define Islamic concepts that's so precious
25:16
to us. We're living based on whatever definition framing that you know the former colonizers decide
25:24
to place on us. So when Jas says you must first and foremost understand the difference between the
25:30
concept of worship right with the you know actual practice of worship because worshiping Allah means
25:39
maybe you got to upend the way things are being done and this is going to take time but I think
25:45
the first step is to appreciate and understand that there's more than meets the eye and of course
25:54
uh the crisis of education is is not u a small one. The crisis afflicts a lot of Muslim majority
26:01
nations. Yeah. The crisis afflicts a lot of the Middle Eastern uh nations. And and I say
26:07
this from the point that if you want to elevate understanding first and foremost the issues of
26:13
education and access to this information and the truth is something that we have to level further.
27:35
Visit btml. us/thinking Muslim to learn more and give. Nurissa, I was in a cab in Koala Lumpa. And
27:44
my taxi driver was a Hindu lady. Yeah. And I began to speak to her about how did she find
Integrating Non-Muslim Communities
27:50
Malaysia and you know Koala Lumpa. and she's been in she she she really uh had positive things to
27:56
say about the country and something that struck me was she said look I'm a Hindu but this is a
28:02
majority Muslim nation but I feel very comfortable here I don't see I don't see any any antagonism
28:09
between me practicing my faith and being in a in a majority Muslim country now I think um probably
28:16
up to 40% of Malaysia is non-Muslim maybe I've got that figure wrong but less now it's about yeah but
28:23
you know we we've Muslims is about 70% now 70% right so you still got a sizable non-Muslim so
28:31
how does that work um because again the fears that some have in the west is that if there is a majority Muslim country with a strong Islamic ethos then non-Muslims are going to be treated
28:41
unfairly this lady was very complimentary of of her treatment how does that how does that work
28:47
from you from where you're sitting alhamdulillah I'm really happy because um I worked on the campaign. We were running undercover with the then minister of human resource trying to get input
28:58
from the e-haling drivers you know cap drivers but more so them working in the gig economy depending
29:04
on this uh uh what is it called um like you know authority that is the app right panopticon that
29:15
can basically control and sack them whenever they can. So it went a long way to provide them more
29:21
u negotiating uh rights, more renumeration per hour and of course to be considered as dependent
29:30
contractors because you can't ignore their welfare when they're driving and they're working. Yeah.
29:36
Um and of course waiting time. So alhamdulillah I'm happy to hear this. Um but of course you know
29:41
there are challenges faced by by by the different segments. We were just talking about the placement
29:47
in universities. So of course we need to always um engage and figure out uh spaces for them to enjoy
29:56
for everyone to enjoy socioeconomic mobility now. The British colonial rule actually did not just
30:03
uh introduce ethnic categorization, right? but actively constructed a governance framework
30:09
through legal and other related mechanisms to entrench their existing hold on the population. So
30:16
we had to work um very hard throughout the decades to not just eradicate poverty but also remove the
30:25
assetbased strangle hole of foreign ownership in in the stock exchange. So I think because of this
30:34
uh like it or not there's a certain sense there's much that we can still do to nurture this
30:40
relationship between the races and uh of course um the fact of the matter is even I would argue
30:51
some of the construction of religious agencies uh where some would say can be patternalistic and of
31:00
course there are moves to change this. But it's also as a result how colonization entrenched right
31:08
and kind of demarcated Islam as just a practice of worship. Ibadat versus ibada and S Jaser AA talks
31:17
about this because invasion didn't just come from the pillage and the physical abuse and oppression
31:23
but it also came with it in intellectually. So the intellectual invasion is something that we have
31:29
to be cognizant of. Um but alhamdulillah I think under the Madani framework you know when the prime
31:35
minister came up with this concept I was 16 uh the civil society right and now when he took office
31:44
um he brought up Malaysia Madani which is really taking into account inspired from Medina and the
31:52
fact that the first written constitution enjoining the sort of unity and governing
31:58
of different groups, the Jews, Muslims. Um, and I felt that that is an amongation of society,
32:08
right? But predicated on justice, on equity, and I hope that we can aspire towards that. and
32:18
the willingness to listen, the willingness to engage, the willingness to even speak and have
32:23
conversations like you did with with our taxi cab driver um is important. I mean in Qatar
32:30
here I have um had many conversations have you? Pakistanis, yes, Sri Lankans and it's so it's
32:39
nice because you can see that they appreciate uh Qatar sticking to their values, right? And
32:48
um I think it's very empowering if we kind of celebrate who we are identitywise. Yeah. Of
32:55
course, but looking at how it factors and uh links with the the greater objectives of the Sharia.
33:04
So, so Nora as the uh uh the global order shifts towards multipolarity there's a renewed talk about
33:11
Asian values um I mean do you see these values to be complimentary to our Islamic ethical tradition
33:19
or are there real points of philosophical tensions between say Japanese values, Chinese values and our Islamic values? There are two things I'll mention here. Uh I think the first
Is There a Real Tension between Cultural Values and Islam?
33:31
will be remiss for us not to um address the fact that this liberal western values which you know
33:41
supposedly speaking about human rights about um individualism making sure every person is
33:48
respected yada yada yada is uh rather um rather hypocritical and I think it's taken a hit after
33:58
the ongoing doing genocide in Raza the difference between treatment of Ukraine and and of course uh Palestine and it's also brought to four that all these supposed differences that we have is
34:14
um is really um what's most important is you are taking action based on your beliefs and
34:23
the values you espouse back to them the first um point that I raised So and the second bit is
34:30
when you talk about Asian values you know it's um it's it's very important to look deeper and in the
34:42
histories of the Malay annals there's a folk law that's depicted through a conversation between a
34:50
ruler and his subject and I always love that that story because first it recognizes that the rer
34:59
is not divine after Islam's um arrival in Southeast Asia and Malaysia in Malay in Malaya at
35:08
the time you know submit to God divine power you know resides in God alhamdulillah and then number
35:17
two is the fact that even the king has to dignify his subjects by not humiliating not humiliating
35:27
ing the subjects and for as long as this rule is respected then of course loyalty is bestowed
35:34
upon the ruler and then that's why when you talk about Asian values I think is very much
35:39
also the construct of criticisms by the west um of course there are challenges I mean in anything but
35:48
um Siddik Fadel allay Dr. Fadel is the pioneer founder of Abim Islamic youth movement in Malaysia
35:57
and he wrote this profound thesis on Islam and the Malay and he showcases how through
36:06
persuasion through the Islamic sorry it's through the trading roots you actually have Islam being
36:12
embraced by by the communities while taking into account there's some cultural practices
36:18
from Hinduism you know Buddhism elements, but by and large it came through peace, right?
36:27
And I think this is something that makes me appreciate when you talk about being Asian and
36:34
the fact that you know within our region we have the world's most populous Muslim nation and how do
36:40
we coexist with others in peace as Islam teaches us instead of you know this barrage of uh defined
36:50
versions of Islam that we're supposed to respond to answer to and so on so forth. So that's why
36:58
um that would be my my my response. I think we have to be very careful when we are trying to find
37:06
contradictions when instead we should be looking at similarities and spaces where coexistence
37:14
happens on a day-to-day basis. M Japan mind you has even focused a lot on trying to pro provide
37:24
spaces for prayers for it Muslim tourists. So if you go there and and and you try to find a venue
37:31
to pray I think it's a lot easier compared to a country in Europe. Um so because of this I feel um
37:40
we need to kind of celebrate the small successes and really kind of encourage this level of embrace
37:49
and um kind of spaces for diversity. Um, I've seen some uh uh on on Instagram and social media,
38:00
you get clips of um u proceedings in parliament sometimes and Malaysian parliament sometimes
38:06
could be quite rowdy, let's say. Yeah. Um and and it it begs the question, you know, politics is a
38:13
rowdy sport, right? It's a it's a place where usually it's quite masculine. It's very macho and
Compromises and Moral Red Lines in Pursuing Power
38:19
often uh people are compromising very devout and and strongly held values for the pursuit of power.
38:26
So within that political corridor where you're you've got you're immersed in this atmosphere
38:32
of of power and egotism, how does someone like yourself uh remain consistent with Islam? uh
38:39
and and what are the sort of compromises and the moral red lines that one needs to be cognizant of
38:44
when when when when pursuing power? I think the stories and the histories involving the rightly
38:52
guided califfs. Mhm. It's a sobering reminder. It gets very very precarious, challenging and
39:02
and dark. Yeah. And it's in the in those moments that you rely on your faith, your understanding on
39:13
what is it that we're doing this for. It's for the makaset Sharia. It's for the higher objectives.
39:20
It's to strive regardless of the darkness. I served parliament for three terms. Alhamdulillah,
39:28
I was very very fortunate. I had people who believed in me who decided to vote and allow
39:37
me to represent them in parliament and um in 2022 I didn't make it uh in my seat and subhan Allah
39:48
it was it was really hikma I remember my daughter was telling me oh mama don't don't worry about it
39:56
you know it's like a job contract um it lasts for five years sometimes you just just don't
40:02
get it. And that gave me space to even deepen my work on policy and you know the last year in 2021
40:13
before the elections at the height of co I just you know I could not uh I couldn't manage it. I
40:23
had to proceed and initiate this multi-dimensional poverty index study. Yeah. Because I felt we were
40:34
struggling, right? We were indoors, but we were relatively quite comfortable because you could access food and your children could access education through their digital devices. But
40:46
how about those in the rural areas who's really you know in the lower income category and that's
40:56
like hs al nerves the fact that they're deprived not just you know from facing poverty in terms
41:03
of even education and that's intellectual um you know uh sort of um content and alhamdulillah we
41:15
managed to corell together a group of enumerators again guided by the mass like I there has to be a
41:22
way we can measure and address and engage and do this better and professor Dr. Fatimari who's a
41:28
former poverty expert in Malaysia led that that study and that was probably one of the small
41:36
humble studies that captured the impact of COVID on on the on poverty on the types of deprivation
41:45
and you had 110 countries under Ofi and none of them captured COVID. Um uh my my my point being
41:56
is that you have limited amount of time and you can't allow for this quest for perfection to be
42:04
the enemy of good. Yeah. There's always space to do good even though it's really small and
42:10
sometimes is very hard because you know you want to do so much more but I feel that that's why you
42:20
know that God will judge and measure every single good thing that you do and not let it go to waste.
42:29
So that's how I look at it. And I think in a world filled with narcissism because it's it's real and
42:36
it's not just Trump, it's also like wherever you are, you will face people who are guided
42:42
by sheer force of the ecosystem that we live in by pursuit of um material wealth by their
42:52
own need for external validation. And subhan Allah if you need to prepare a strong team but
42:59
also internally you need to prepare your your shields whether it's through understanding the
43:05
religion making sure your connection to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is not disrupted then so
43:11
be it but it is not something you take lightly and uh that's that would be my my my my answer
43:21
Nissa I mean I think we've we've had a really fascinating conversation Today I want to touch on
43:27
uh a question about women's participation in politics generally because of course uh we
Muslim Women in Politics
43:34
don't see very many Muslim women around the world who participate in active politics who who try to
43:40
stand for elections and that's partly because maybe they're smart they're being smart you
43:46
said yeah I mean that maybe that's because it's a very masculine world and and and for sure a lot of
43:52
women are put off by that but also there are some objections that some people raise from an Islamic
43:57
perspective or Muslim perspective, you know, that uh women shouldn't be involved in in politics like
44:03
how do you navigate these very real tensions and and observations that people make probably on a
44:09
daily basis about yourself and and being involved with politics? I think Asia first has always been
44:16
quite um friendly and that's been quite the norm if you look at the different leaders have emerged
44:25
um but even throughout Islamic history from you know our mother Khadijah and her to Sumaya women
44:33
actually played foundational roles um the first to support the prophet and to embrace Islam the
44:38
first martr in Islamic history and of course uh the battle of of Jamaal right where also led
44:48
the the campaign I I feel we don't really bring this uh stories to the four we don't normalize it
44:56
because again we need to push back when certain inaccuracies are being raised I was really um
45:08
secondly I want to mention this I was so inspired by Sh Aram Nadui's Muhadis because I did not know
45:18
it existed until the Salangor state government decided to translate and now we have the first
45:24
volume in Bahasa Malaysia and guess who they invited to launch it yours truly uh and I was
45:31
really embarrassed not being able to speak Arabic so that's my next mission but the point is tell
45:38
us about this book of yes uh it was So Muhadisad came from the time that Shir Akram Nadui one fine
45:47
day I think in East London where I live. Yes. Uh you know here's this usual uh critique about
45:55
how Islam does not support women does you know really is backward in in pursuing or pushing for
46:04
women's rights. And it's like he will go on this mission, this journey, a 15-year journey it would
46:09
be to basically find out what were women doing in Islamic throughout Islamic history. And that's how
46:17
he unearthed at least. Yeah. Because he would have had he would have found more. But then he said,
46:26
"Go and publish it now." Because he said it in his speech and that's what happened. and he published
46:32
10,000 female hadith narrators who were also jurists who were teaching men and women. At one
46:41
point there were 667 attendees and you know some were even a lot smarter than their husbands and
46:48
this also recorded and it was so inspiring and I felt that this is a problem right because we don't
46:57
kind of we're not being told our own history. So of course today you know you're you're supposed to
47:03
be part of society um you're supposed to uh also um contribute and we also know that um for me I
47:16
guess I'm lucky because I have had role models. So for my party, we had a female president. Uh she
47:24
was the deputy prime minister, the first female deputy prime minister of Malaysia. And during her tenure, she actually introduced a policy um that was protecting lineage. Here's Al al- Nasul. And
47:38
it's about uh for example you know introduce policies like isuri respecting and valuing
47:48
um housewives care work and to basically making make sure that their husbands are providing some
47:56
degree of uh support for them in their old age but also for the state for the government
48:03
to match this contribution. and it affected housewives everywhere in Malaysia. So for me,
48:11
you know, we we need to figure out how it is that we translate policy into action. Now,
48:18
the last bit I would say is of course we can't take time for granted. Every opportunity you have
48:24
to maximize if you're not strategically thinking how to combine the the three concentric circles.
48:30
This is from Jay Donny who one of the one of the I think professors teaching about leadership one
48:36
it has to be uh politically feasible because politicians not going to implement something
48:42
that is not going to be beneficial to them right but also it has to be technically sound because
48:49
you have something that's being done by any politician shooting from the hip and number three organizationally implementable so how do you make sure you win over right and this is
49:00
um the concept of whether you're dealing with civil servants, different agencies, this political nows, it has to be there and um not just to target the masaha the kind of benefit of
49:13
of of the community but also understand there will be the shur element to it. So you can't dictate
49:22
everything and expect people to listen without convincing them um of the benefits of a particular
49:30
action. But I hope that through muhadisad through our engagement through our understanding that you
49:38
know we're all glorifiers of God. So both men and women. Yeah. And we're measured by the degree of
49:44
piety that we have our iman. So certainly there's a role to play and that's not saying that everyone
49:50
has to choose a career. I think that the point is is you're valuing that space for them to decide.
49:56
Yeah. But also understanding of course that that in terms of maternal connection I mean I I would
50:03
say the most meaningful moment for me in my life amongst the best was giving birth to my to my to
50:12
my babies. Right. It was such a it was such a kind of spiritual and I felt so thankful that
50:20
Allah subhanana wa ta'ala has gifted me with with this this this life and I feel that you
50:28
know you always want him or her to be better versions of yourself you know guided by by the
50:34
true path and and that's why I I think uh you know that's that connection that you can't let
50:42
go of your party. It's really been uh it's been so fascinating speaking to you today. Thank you
50:49
so much for your for your time. Thank you for for having me. All the best. Thank you, Muslim. Yeah,
50:55
thank you so much. Asalam alaikum. Now, you've reached the end of this show, and the fact that you've stayed until the very end tells me that you truly believe in our work. Please
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