Ep 257. - Gaza is Shaking MAGA - Charlie Kirk to Marjorie Taylor Greene with James Bell
Who would have thought, even two years ago, that those on the right would question US commitments to Israel and Zionism? But that is exactly what’s happening in Republican heartlands. I met James Bell, a Texas-based Catholic campaigner, Trump supporter, and until recently, someone who would reliably support America’s forever wars.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation.
Introduction
0:00
You can see some of the commentary at shifting even like Charlie Kirk has sort of moved away from sort of a hardline pro-Israel position. You said that you couldn't find anyone under
0:10
the age of 40 within your circle that remains pro- Israel. I think the the heart of the NAGA
0:16
movement is populism and YouTube is overwhelmingly dominated by younger viewers uh than Fox News. I
0:24
was raised with very very strongly pro- Zionist views. At one point I was um enthusiastic about
0:30
the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and tried to join the military when when I was relatively young. What I discovered was the government of Israel defined the start of the war and they say
0:40
well blockades are inherently acts of war. Well, they've been blockading Gaza for years. Who would
0:48
have thought even 2 years ago that those on the American right would question US commitments to
0:54
Israel and Zionism? But that is exactly what's happening in Republican heartlands. I met James
1:01
Bell, a Texas-based Catholic campaigner, Trump supporter, and until recently, someone who would
1:07
reliably support America's forever wars. The US needs to use its authority to be a voice for
1:16
people who are being oppressed and persecuted. And now the US is doing its worse than nothing because
1:21
we're giving the bombs to the Israeli government. I think Gaza has been a a wakeup call. We need to abandon these forever wars in the Middle East. I'm here in Ottawa, Canada after my trip to Dallas.
1:33
This interview with James Bell was filmed before the murder of Charlie Kirk. But much of what is talked about addresses the schism that now exists within the MAGA movement? How can this movement,
1:44
one that believes that America has engaged in useless forever wars and should not try
1:49
to reconstruct the world in its own image, how can such a movement accept the primacy
1:55
of Israel to American foreign policy with all the moral and intellectual failures that come with supporting genocide? Charlie Kirk was beginning to question these sacred cows, even
2:05
though his perspective remained deeply immoral and problematic. But for Muslims, the MAGA movement,
2:11
if shaped by moral and less chauvinistic ideas, would help a Muslim world that doesn't rely on
2:18
mass migration and remittances that can foster its own cultural and religious identity and
2:24
most importantly can be free of authoritarians who have long served a globalist US agenda and that of
2:32
Zionism. James Bell, it's really wonderful to have you with us. Thank you for joining us today on the
2:38
Thinking Muslim. It's my pleasure. Uh James, um I've I've really uh yesterday we met and we
2:43
had a a fantastic conversation and um I I really want to understand um someone like you. Actually,
2:50
I'm an outsider to this country of course and um I've been um studying from afar the
2:57
uh trends within the Republican movement, the MAGA trend in particular and uh I think uh and
3:03
the religious right in America. And I think you in a sense for my conversation with you yesterday, you represent all of that. Um, so I want to understand the MAGA movement today, but I was
Republicans Anti-Israel?
3:13
struck by something you said to me yesterday which I found really interesting. You said that you
3:19
couldn't find anyone under the age of 40 within your circle that remains pro-Israel. I mean,
3:26
that's extraordinary to me. Um, c can you explain that shift? Like what accounts for that shift,
3:32
please? Yeah. So I think there's a bunch of contributing factors. Um one of the things is you
3:40
know I myself um you have have some disagreements with with some of the people in my in my family. I
3:49
was raised definitely with sort of the standard very very strongly pro- Zionist uh views that
3:59
um that I was kind of brought up with. And uh for me it had been kind of a gradual process.
4:06
Yeah. Generation Z, so I'm a millennial and so I'm I'm 40 years old and generation Z I would say the
4:15
conservatives have basically not no pro-Zionist sentiment that I've ever been aware of um among
4:24
any of the generation Z conservatives that I've ever met. Uh now that could be reflective of the
4:31
fact that the circles that I go with could be I have a very unrepresentative sample but I doubt
4:37
it. I think that there's a lot of dynamics that are at play in uh Western and American politics
4:46
particularly that are leading towards a a shift in assessment on the US's level of commitment
4:56
to following what whatever the state of Israel policy happens to be in a particular point in time. Yeah. And that shift is accelerating with young people for sure on the right. Uh there's
5:10
been in the commentarate world for example uh Tucker Carlson has been giving more and
5:17
more voice to that sort of view. Yeah. And it's important to recognize the dynamics at play there.
5:27
YouTube, which is where I think the majority of the consumption of his videos uh and and media
5:33
comes in, is overwhelmingly dominated by younger viewers uh than Fox News, his previous uh place.
5:41
And so there's a degree to which I think he's very sensitive to the desires of his audience.
5:50
and his audience is a young audience and they're definitely questioning uh the orthodoxy of sort
5:57
of the strong Zionist sentiment. The contributing factors to me fall into a number of categories.
6:06
One of the categories that is a big contributing factor in my view is young people for the first
6:16
time are often graduating from college with massive student loans, right? And that affects
6:24
the left and the right in both cases. But there's sort of a general anger at sort of
6:31
the the question the question of usery which isn't really well understood among general in
6:37
the people in the west. Uh I myself fall into St. Thomas Aquinas's view of the question of user. He
6:44
has some disagreements with um a veroise who a lot of Muslims have uh read um I've read some
6:51
excerpts from him um and mymonities has has his own views. They each actually commented on Aris
6:58
uh on Aristotle's anti-usery views in the 13th century with various degrees of of consent. But
7:06
the sort of anti-usery view makes people feel sort of estrange from the establishment. They're like,
7:13
"Hey, I graduate from college. I've got, you know, I I I have many younger clients that, you know,
7:19
husband and wife, they've got $120,000 in student loan debt, uh, significant interest payments,
7:25
and no not a real key way out, and it's almost a lot of them feel almost like alienated,
7:31
almost like a form of of slavery and and that sort of makes them very anti-establishment. And so the
7:37
degree to which the Zionist um you know message has been something that's been very very integral
7:44
to the establishment foreign policy message that very degree makes it less palatable to these young
7:50
people. Uh that's a that that I think is a big contributing factor. Asalam alalaykum. I need your
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7:56
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My commitment to you is that I will continue to provide free thought-provoking content,
8:31
but I need you to spread the word, comment, and keep an eye out for our shows. Yeah, I mean that's
8:38
really interesting. I'm I I I've seen that uh this shift has been somewhat gradual and um I
The war on terror
8:46
mean historically go back 10 20 years. um there was a plurality, a strong opinion uh on the right
8:53
in particular, a strong pro-Zionist uh opinion on the right. And I just wonder whether these
9:00
last 20 years of the war on terror um the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the never- ending wars
9:07
uh in the Middle East, how much of it how much of this sort of anti-Zionist or anti-Israel feeling
9:13
uh has come down to uh those those conflicts uh over the past 20 25 years. Well, in my I can talk
9:22
for for example about my own life. So I was very pro- Afghanistan war and pro- Iraq war when they
9:29
first happened. A lot of the propaganda that the US put out around that time I found very
9:36
persuasive. I was very wellversed in the sins of Uday and Hussein Saddam Hussein's uh sons and how
9:45
they abused sort of the power and privilege of of the Iraqi yeah government and things like that.
9:50
and and I was very sort of persuaded of sort of like a sort of a dogooder. Um, hey, you know,
9:57
there's something, you know, there's, you know, obviously Saddam Hussein was not a very lovable
10:02
person. And so, he was he was easy uh for me to, you know, to think, okay, this is someone who's
10:08
bad. This is someone who we we we need to take action against. But at the same time, since then,
10:15
it's been hard to ignore the fact that there's been more and more problems associated with this.
10:23
You know, just to give a couple foreign policy examples that really struck me was the United
10:30
States had invested obviously at one point a lot of money into the Saddam Hussein regime as part
10:38
of their um sponsoring of Iraq during the Iran Iraq war. And so a lot of the weapons that Saddam
10:44
Hussein's military had were actually US weapons to begin with uh back from the 80s. Then once we went
10:51
anti-Saddam uh and we also Saddam of course was a ba'ist which is a particular socialist
10:58
um wing of of Muslim thought and uh so also um in Syria was uh was um
11:11
Assad Assad Bashar al-Assad and so the US was also funding anti-Assad movements at the same time.
11:19
Yeah. And the whole rise of the Islamic State uh which is interesting was basically Syria and Iraq
11:26
share a very large border which isn't doesn't have a big beautiful wall as Trump would put
11:31
it in between them. And so there was weapons going in, American weapons going into sort of anti-Assad
11:37
forces on the Syri showing up in Iraq. Christians were being killed there. there was kind of like a
11:43
a more radical wing of it and it just it just looked like wow this this is this is what the
11:48
US has done to Iraq. Um you know it's it's it's obviously you know the proof was sort of in the
11:54
pudding. Uh I was persuaded of the righteousness of the Iraq war for several years. Um and
12:02
uh I even at one point I was um enthusiastic about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and tried to join
12:07
the military when when I was relatively young. uh I ended up uh contracting type 1 diabetes when
12:12
I tried to join the military. So that uh that ended that endeavor uh very rapidly before it
12:18
got started. But um you know I I was I personally was persuaded by the evidence and I think a lot
12:26
of Americans went through that that uh process. It's interesting because as recently as the 2008
12:36
you presidential Republican uh primary elections, there was people like Ron Paul would go out and
12:43
say, "Hey, you know, this is this is terrible. You know, we need to abandon these forever wars in the
12:49
Middle East." And uh he would always get booed by all the Republican crowds. And just 8 years
12:55
later in 2016 when Trump was saying it, which of course was after the whole issue with the anti-Assad and the Islamic State and all these different things, then Trump was saying it and
13:04
he was actually getting in some cases cheered. Um, and so that shift in the Republican party,
13:09
I think, was evidence- driven, right? And and how much does religion uh contribute to the way
Catholic tradition and Israel
13:16
you see the state of Israel, the way you see what's happening at the moment? And we would would very much call it a genocide. Um I mean is there a is there a theological uh element to how
13:28
you view what is taking place? I know Catholic Catholic religious tradition um uh pays a lot
13:35
of emphasis to the dignity of the oppressed. Um does that feature in in the conversations you're
13:42
having with your peers about what is taking place at the moment? The asymmetry of this conflict between Israel and and the Palestinians. Yes. Yeah, I think the the Catholic emphasis on
13:54
standing up for the downtrodden is definitely a motivating factor for me, but I'm very much
14:00
within the natural law tradition. And so I view the natural law as something that you can access
14:08
with your reason without necessarily having to be Catholic. And a lot of Catholic social teaching is
14:13
based on natural law arguments that should reach across denomination or religious boundaries. Yeah.
14:20
And so I I I didn't I don't find it necessary to be Catholic to be persuaded of this. But one of
14:27
the things in particular that has troubled me about um what I learned growing up as a kid in
14:36
particular versus what's going on now is the Six Day War. war. And the six- day war to me is very
14:41
relevant, you know, in 1967 because the six- day war I had always been taught was something
14:50
that the states of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria had started a war against Israel. Yeah. And when I did
14:58
a little bit more research, what I discovered was the government of Israel defined the start of the
15:05
war as Muhammad Nasser, who was then president of Egypt. He had blocked the Straits of Traas,
15:13
which was which is a port uh well, it's a it's an it's it's an avenue for Israeli shipping,
15:19
merchant shipping to go into the Indian Ocean. And when he closed the port of Harass, they the
15:25
Israeli uh government and and military define that as a blockade. And they say, well, blockades are
15:33
inherently acts of war. And so they they define Muhammad Nasser as having started that war. Well,
15:40
they've been blockading Gaza for for years. Um, and so if they defined blockades as acts of war,
15:47
then then I mean their blockade was more intense than than the closing of the Straits of Tas. They
15:53
still had the Mediterranean ports, Jaffa and all the rest. Uh, obviously it's not convenient to go all the way around the Horn of Africa um from Jaffa. Uh, and so there was obviously a lot of
16:04
bite to what Muhammad Nasser was trying to do. And I don't want to necessarily condone his actions
16:09
necessarily, but but the the conquest itself was based on a rationale that the Israeli government
16:15
seems hypoc hypocritical in not acknowledging in the same way. So James, do you think um Gaza,
Gaza a moral reckoning?
16:21
Palestine could be could become for the right what Vietnam what Vietnam was for the left? A kind of
16:28
moral reckoning that reshapes uh political opinion here in America. I think for the right the a big
16:39
aspect for the right is the idea that Trump always advocates which is this whole America
16:46
first principle. And I think that I think that it might be more correct to say that it is one
16:55
piece in a larger tapestry of the US re-evaluating its commitment to some of these forever wars. And
17:04
um and you know, Ukraine also and other other wars the the the right is increasingly skeptical of.
17:12
And you can, it's interesting, you can see some of the commentary at shifting uh pretty dramatically,
17:19
especially among those who are on YouTube with younger audiences. Even, you know,
17:24
even like Charlie Kirk has sort of moved away from sort of a hardline pro-Israel position and other
17:30
conservative commentators are kind of responding to the shifting appetites of of US conservatives.
17:36
But one thing that I think is um you know this is a classic conservative analysis of politics,
17:45
but one thing that I think has been a big contributor to alienation among the right
17:53
um is that a lot of young people don't have present fathers in the picture. And that
18:00
dynamic has been a big driver of alienation from the establishment. And increasingly in the world
18:10
of social media, people look towards online personalities to sort of be a father figure.
18:16
I think that this phenomenon has been accelerating in the US for a while. Uh fatherlessness has been
18:22
gradually declining or increasing I should say in the US for quite a little while now.
18:27
I mean I thought I thought that was a phenomenon in within leftleaning communities. I agree part
18:33
of I I think there was a degree to which there the Barack Obama campaign in 2008 was sort of creating
18:41
him his image to such an extent that it would appeal to people sort of looking for for a dad,
18:47
you know, and and there there's an element of Barack Obama. Now, it's interesting like with the Gen Z and the younger younger people, it's surprising how many people, for example,
18:59
uh are talking about, well, what's Andrew Tate been saying recently, you know, and um and so
19:04
there's a lot of sort of edgy figures. One of the things that I think creates a lot of uh sympathy
19:12
among the right uh for what's going on in um in Gaza and and other um areas. The West Bank also
19:22
has a lot of really bad stuff going on too. Uh with the settler movement is we are very very used
19:31
to censorship because the elite establishments, you know, Harvard University and all all the the
19:36
the most prestigious universities, a lot of the mainstream media t leans strongly left in the US.
19:42
And so the the right has always sort of felt like it needed alternative places to alternative
19:50
ways to communicate and uh and dealt a lot with censorship and the similar things are going on
19:58
uh to a great extent with Gaza. You know people you know as re you know I'm I'm very anti-COVID
20:04
lockdowns for example. It's a fairly classic conservative viewpoint, but the lockdown thing,
20:11
you couldn't get uh YouTube videos approved in 2020, 2021 advocating for certain uh certain
20:20
views that were anti-lockdown in the co issue and conservatives became acutely aware of how
20:28
important it was for these social media giants to kind of control the levers of power. But now,
20:33
you know, from from what I understand uh from my Muslim friends, I've I've made recently several
20:38
Muslim friends in the last year or so, um is that there's very similar levers of power being
20:44
utilized to try to suppress um images and videos of things that are going on in Gaza on YouTube and
20:50
other social media platforms. And so that sort I would say that um the phrasing in your question
20:58
is slightly leftcoded and and the the frustration around censorship and the establishment are more
21:08
the the the right has become more populist and populism is going to end up favoring the people
21:15
who are viewed as oppressed. Whether that be people with unbelievable student loan debts or even in obviously far worse situations like people, you know, who are being um unable to
21:26
get adequate nutrition in in Gaza and who are being displaced from their homes in the West Bank and and you know, churches are being blown up and all that kind of stuff. Many of my viewers
MAGA Movement
21:35
would not be familiar with the the philosophy of of the MAGA movement, like what it stands for.
21:41
um and um they wouldn't maybe see MAGA through the eyes of of uh the Trump administration,
21:49
what the Trump administration is doing and does not do. I mean, explain that to me. Explain the
21:54
MAGA movement, what it stands for and and whether Trump in a way represents MAGA in its truest form.
22:01
I think Donald Trump is is be a really important political figure because he was the first major
22:18
primary party uh nominee who was running on a very very strictly um populist message. Um,
22:27
now you could argue, I guess, that perhaps Barack Obama was slightly more populist than Hillary
22:33
Clinton, but generally his attitude towards the establishment was he could work with people,
22:40
you know, a lot of times he had access to people in Hollywood, to people in college campuses. He had a lot of allies among elite institutions and and uh celebrities and things like that. Trump
22:51
was really coming in as sort of more of a a true populist. And my my father um wrote a book called
23:00
uh populism and elitism, politics in the age of equality. Uh and that was published in uh the
23:06
1990s. And the way that he defines populism, which I think is extremely resonant today,
23:12
is he defines populism as that set of beliefs associated with the view that people are better
23:20
at managing their own affairs than elites are at managing their affairs for them. and he would view
23:26
elitism as people's view that it's better for elites to manage um the affairs of a populace
23:35
uh in various ways versus having the populace manage their own affairs. Elitism and populism
23:42
is a really interesting lens through which to view the MAGA movement. It's almost self-evident
23:50
that if you're a populist, you're going to be less favorable towards for example COVID lockdowns or
23:56
you're going to uh to be uh you know less of the view that the US needs to control all the regimes
24:05
of the world uh and and make sure that you know justice is being dispensed in sort of an American
24:10
way um globally and you're going to you're going to generally have sort of a view now I don't
24:16
want to uh oversimplify things because there's a degree to which populism it automatically comes
24:25
with moral rhetoric. So it uh it's interesting the one of the people that my dad writes about because
24:36
he was very apppropo in the 90s at the time is Ross Perau. Ross Perau was often described as a
24:45
populist and he was like considered okay this is the first rise of sort of a populist and there is a sense in which Ross Perau tried to portray a populist image but whenever he was asked about
24:56
any sort of policy issue he would always say something like well you know what we need to do
25:01
uh about social security we need to get the smartest people who are actuaries and economists
25:09
you know and lock them up in a room and have them figure out what the issue is and solve it. That's what we would that's what we do in business. And so he would always say stuff like that which is
25:17
very very actually elitist uh you know solution. So he rarely had um actual populist solutions.
25:25
Trump was the first one to sort of really present more of a populist message that was focused on a
25:30
moral argument that the populist could understand rather than you know hey I I want to hire these
25:36
elites to manage this. I Dr. Fouchi needs to decide which businesses are opened or closed.
25:41
Um he's an expert. You know, these these sorts of things. That's I think the the heart of the NAG movement is populism. And there's a degree to which Trump has Trump has many elitist adviserss
25:53
and he also has some populist advisers. And he you can see who's getting his ear at any given moment.
26:02
uh you know there was a point of time uh in the Gaza conflict where Trump had really come out
26:10
and said hey this is going too far. I just saw images of these children and they're being you
26:15
know they're they had their arms taken off and all these s sorts of things and we need to uh Israel
26:22
needs to stop its its aggression. And so he he made some really strong statements but then he'll
26:27
he'll sort of vacasillate and it's similarly even on on a very unrelated issue but the co lockdowns
26:33
you know like at first he was like oh don't worry about it just go about your affairs as usual and then more and more he started he started yielding to you know the desires of sort of Dr. Fouchy and
26:42
the elites and things like that. And so the right is very populist now. And anytime that you hear
26:50
rhetoric about experts doing this or you know foreign policy experts solving that or you know
26:57
uh bankers figuring out you know the Federal Reserve how to how to solve uh you know the debt
27:02
crisis or things like that. you know the the the right automatically recoils at that and the that
27:11
I think is kind of the heart of the MAGA movement now. So the MAGA movement is everything elites are
Populism
27:18
everything that um is the opposite to what the elites are recommending and prescribing for for
27:25
American society. Not necessarily. The way the way that populism and elitism works is that it just so
27:32
happens statistically speaking that the more of an elite that you are, the more your views are
27:39
going to tend to be elitist, right? So if you're a physician, you are going to be on average more
27:48
likely to have aggressive um empowerment of the medical establishment views than say a nurse or
27:57
an EMT or someone further down further down the totem pole. And obviously as a percentage of the
28:03
population, elites make up a disproportionately large percentage of the US population. Yeah,
28:09
as economies become more specialized, there's elite engineers, there's elite physicians, there's elite attorneys, there's uh there's, you know, elite economists, there's there there's so
28:19
many different kinds of elites in America that there's a surprising number of elites and they actually make up a very very significant voting block in the US and um and they tend to be
28:32
elitist. But then you have people like Trump, no one could ever argue that Trump is not an elite. I
28:38
mean, he's a he's a billionaire, you know, he's been, you know, very successful as all these,
28:43
you know, commercial real estate deals and all that kind of stuff, but he is very populist. So,
28:48
I would say a minority of the elites tend to be populist. Um, and a majority tend to be elitist.
28:57
Among the populace, the populist sentiment is uh is very much elite populist. the populus with a
29:08
CE is more populist with an ST. And the one of the ways that that's very manifested is now I I
29:17
um I'm involved in you know local politics a little bit just as an activist not not in
29:22
any you know political capacity but um you know just in in the city where I happen to live and
29:31
where we are actually conducting this interview Irving Texas in 2010 the uh Republican um party
29:42
uh was was doing its gerrymandering. Like basically gerrymandering, as your British friends may or may not know, is basically a process under which um you might try to carve out
29:53
u certain legislative districts in a way that will help the party who's controlling where the lines
30:00
are retain a majority. So generally, you know, New York is heavily gerrymandered towards Democrats,
30:06
California towards Democrats, uh Texas is jerrymandered towards Republicans. As recently as 2010, the Irving was uh gerrymandered in such a way that the wealthier section of Irving,
30:18
which is the north of Irving, was all put into a district that was designed to be Republican and
30:25
uh the south of Irving, which tends to be a little bit poorer, uh was gerrymandered into a section
30:30
that was designed to be Democrat. Since the Trump realignment movement and the MAGA movement,
30:36
even just here in Irving, a lot of the South and especially Hispanics have have swung hard to the
30:42
right. And as a result of that, the gerrymandering map looks totally different. Like it used to be
30:49
the case um that people would discuss when they were buying real estate in Irving, hey, if you
30:54
want to get real estate that really appreciates, you want to buy in the Republican district.
30:59
uh and and if you if you want to buy a house that you're not sure if it if if the home value
31:04
will appreciate as as rapidly, you can buy in the Democratic district if your budget doesn't allow you to do the other. And that was advice that was like sometimes provided to people.
31:13
um you know uh but now it would make no sense to to make any economic decision based on the
31:20
current gerrymander because the the the the shift has happened such that the most southern district
31:27
in Irving which is not as wealthy is is is the most conservative now um and the northern district
31:34
has swung very hard to the left so it's much more it's much more liberal from the out as an outsider
Is MAGA racist?
31:40
we often associate at least the mainstream media here uh presents the MAGA movement as very white,
31:47
possibly even racialized in its in its undertones. Um uh the the MAGA movement has a has a a cultural
31:56
supremacy to it and would would rather have uh Latinos and maybe maybe others as well,
32:02
recent migrants repatriated to uh to their countries. I mean, how true how true is it when
32:10
we describe the MAGA movement that there is there are these what I would call distasteful elements
32:16
uh uh to it? I think it's easy to um so there's there's there's different elements to to to to
32:25
every political coalition. You know, there's no political coalition that can be described as a monolith. I would say uh in Texas um where we are now, the majority of Hispanics are actually quite
32:40
conservative. Um and so Hispanic they're embraced by the MAG movement. Like Malamoon see them as
32:45
equals. Well, there's there's different kinds of Hispanics. A lot of um a lot of Hispanics Oh,
32:53
yes. Yes. I I would say yes. Uh but um uh for the most part, but a lot of Hispanics in Texas
33:02
um like for example, there's what's called the Rio Grand Valley and that used to be considered
33:08
the bluest of the blue sections of Texas and it's right along the border of the Rio Grand and
33:14
um and you know, right on the border of Mexico and that section used to be hard blue. Well, all those
33:21
districts flipped to Trump uh actually in 2020 and then even more so in 2024. Yeah. And those
33:30
shifts are are strong among Hispanics um in Texas and and elsewhere. And I would say that the the
33:38
the MAGA movement and the conservative movement and the Republican party is becoming increasingly
33:43
more Hispanic. Now I will say of course there's a very strong view that uh that's sort of like
33:51
a populist take on immigration that is hey these employers these chambers of commerce and things
33:58
like that are bringing in you know people from the third world to be their cheap labor and
34:03
they're trying to take advantage of the ordinary working class uh of America by underpaying these
34:10
these people in wages and sometimes paying them under the table. And so the there's a large extent
34:17
to which the recoil is not racial but actually populist. It's it's it's aimed at the business
34:24
community in some cases. Um yeah. So so so that that that's that's quite a different slant to it.
34:33
I will add that like I mentioned earlier um Andrew Tate he's kind of an interesting um character and
34:41
um uh he he recently apparently I don't follow him at all closely but I I hear about him second and
34:48
thirdand for the most part from people that are younger than me but um but I guess he recently announced that he had converted to Islam and you know he's he's a very bombastic character and from
34:59
what I have understood which please don't take this to the bank because I haven't researched it deeply. Sure. But he made a lot of money by um I guess uh getting girls to uh getting girls to uh
35:14
advertise their services on uh one of these apps. What was it called? The uh uh some sexual app. And
35:23
and and anyway, he was he he was like, "Hey, I'll market you and we'll split the the thing." thing. And so he made a lot of money sort of uh what some people derogatory and I think fairly call
35:33
digital pimping. And uh and then he he sort of he drives around fancy cars and he bought a house in
35:38
Romania and he he gets a lot of eyeballs. And I I don't know as much, but I I think there are
35:45
sort of people who are so upset about the level of political correctness and and speech policing that
35:53
go on goes on in the US that they will embrace someone who's willing to go really far out there
36:01
and uh and say things that sound, you know, I'm sure pretty sexist because they're they're looking
36:07
to kind of look for they have an iconoclastic uh slate of mind. I think among young people there is
36:15
an element of that that they're just like they're going to you know reject in general things. I
36:21
will also say that among thought leaders in on in the MAGA movement there in my view is two main um
36:32
camps. the one one camp would be uh people, it's interesting, a lot of the uh I forget the name of
36:40
of all these characters, but there was there was um the guy who was involved in the Charlottesville
36:46
rally, I forget, Spencer, I think, Richard Spencer, if I'm not mistaken. um he's um as far
36:53
as I know sort of an atheist type character and he considers himself sort of an expert on evolution
36:59
and that that uh there are sort of sections of the right I believe they're relatively small uh
37:06
I I almost never run across people who are fully into that but uh but there are sections of the
37:12
right that I think are so angry about censorship that they're willing to embrace kind of what we
37:20
would look at as more of a 19th century uh you know worldview like Charles Darwin had a cousin
37:25
named named Dalton Dalton who invented the the the so-called science of eugenics and and so there the
37:32
the basic claims that some of these um sort of allegedly conservative um you know people will
37:42
make is oh well you know that you know some races are more evolved than others of course the white race is the most evolved and and I think that obviously there's incredible um historical context
37:53
missed and in particular I think the influence of religion on the the cultures is is dramatically
38:00
underrepresented by these sorts of racialist thinkers. I don't think they represent um a
38:07
high percentage, but I think that probably someone like Spencer who probably has a relatively small
38:12
social media following, you know, will probably create contact that content that gets sort of
38:18
regurgitated by someone like Tate and and and sort of fed back into the into the into the ecosystem a
38:23
little bit. But uh but I would say that a lot of a lot of populists are also especially among the
38:31
intellectual class are more likely to reject the whole theory of evolution. And so I myself fall into that that category. And so you know with that worldview this whole idea that you know there's
38:44
different races and they evolved at different periods. None of that makes sense. It's like, you know, I believe that we are all descended of Adam and Eve and, you know, we're all basically second,
38:53
third, fourth, fifth, or 70th cousins, you know, and so that kind of creates um that to me is the
39:00
more truly populist view uh and I think represents an increasing percentage of of the the MAGA
39:08
movement. From what you describe there, it seems like the MAGA movement is very much a leaderless movement. I mean, how integral is Donald Trump to this movement? I I note that in the past maybe
39:18
couple of months there has been a uh there have been cries of betrayal maybe from the man like
39:24
what what accounts for for these um uh these this disconnect now between the base and uh and Donald
39:32
Trump. Well, I think uh the his stance on Gaza and to some extent also on Ukraine has been a huge
39:40
thing because he really campaigned on a strong peace platform. Um and that the US wouldn't be
39:50
you know supporting military adventurisms in uh of foreign nations uh and the situation in Israel.
39:58
I mean, the the data is insane. Like, you know, the the popularity of Israel's actions in Gaza,
40:04
I think I think there the US has over a 70% disapproval rating. and most Republicans
40:10
um uh I know that the 30% a strong percentage of the of the percentage that still supports the
40:18
action you know may be older conservatives who are more inshed in sort of that Zionist mentality and
40:25
also older Democrats too you know um there's you know pe people like Nancy Pelosi and you know the
40:31
older wing of the Democratic party you know they I would just say older folks in general represent
40:36
that sort of core core core base of of support for that. But yeah, the you the MAGA movement Trump
40:45
is expending incredible he's losing incredible political capital by doing this. I I remember,
40:53
you know, the feeling that I had during the COVID lockdowns and I just remember when Trump,
41:01
you know, first announced, you know, 14 days to slow the spread and I just I I almost couldn't
41:07
believe my eyes that he that Trump, the populist, was going to hand over the keys of of the economy
41:14
to uh a a physician researcher. And uh I just I I I I almost couldn't believe my eyeballs. And
41:21
and so I've I feel like I've kind of gone through this before with Trump where I feel like he's not living up to the way that he campaigned and the way that we were expecting him to govern. Um but
41:31
in this case um you know he certainly would not have done nearly as well in Michigan and many of
41:38
the other important swing states that he um you know he he won quite a number of of Muslim votes
41:44
in Michigan promising to uh to bring change to uh to the US's like essentially free pass policy
41:53
towards Israel and you know when push came to shove he hasn't followed through on that. M so
41:59
what would in your mind a a MAGA foreign policy look like? Um and what would be the role of of
42:06
America's uh immense military superiority in a in a in a world where you had a leader who
42:14
really lived up to uh MAGA the expectations of his base. I think a truly populist foreign policy the
42:24
so the the Jesse Helms and Ronald Reagan uh in the uh 1970s um got a plank into the Republican
42:33
uh platform called morality in foreign policy and that plank I don't think has been discussed
42:41
uh especially recently by the Trump administration sufficiently and it's a really important aspect
42:48
of the way that we shouldach approach things. But generally speaking, the US needs to use
42:55
its authority to be a voice for people who are being oppressed and persecuted. Um, you know,
43:04
it it was always shocking to me that, you know, the US did so little to help, you know, the Christians in northern Iraq and and now they're the US is doing it's worse than nothing because
43:14
we're giving the bombs, you know, and some of the military weapons to the Israeli government in terms of the situation in Gaza. And although it's not the US government that I I don't think that
43:24
funds some of the aggressive actions that have recently happened to churches and horrible things
43:30
in in the West Bank that that that some of that is coming through um through American donations. Um
43:37
and so there's there's big big uh problems and and in many cases you would think that the US would
43:44
have a special sympathy um with with um people who are being persecuted especially u you know I mean
43:53
certainly anyone who's being persecuted Muslim or Christian you know should be should be spoken up for but it you would especially think that the Trump administration should have more sympathy for
44:01
the Christians who have been persecuted because the thing about the Christians that are being perscute cuted is that the whole rationale uh for the war is that there's this Islamic extremism
44:12
that needs to be snuffed out and we you need to execute everyone who's associated with Hamas and and things like that. Well, you know, how how could that, you know, be the basis for, you know,
44:24
bombing, you know, that church in Gaza that that happened just a few weeks ago or, you know,
44:30
the they there was damage done to a church in the in the West Bank recently as well. And so
44:36
the rationale for, you know, obviously there's no question that radical, you know, Muslim extremism
44:45
is is, you know, needs to be condemned and and and should be condemned by the civilized, you know,
44:51
Muslim world and and things like that. Uh but you know but there's no there's no here it shows sort
45:00
of a inauthenticity in this the rhetoric of the Israeli government that some of these Christian
45:07
groups have been attacked because there's no plausible way in which they're Hamas or
45:13
participating in Islamic extremism. Mhm. So then how impactful is this generational shift do you
Generational shift
45:19
think to uh America's stance America's unwavering support for for Israel and for Zionism you know
45:27
come 10 20 years time I think there that the I think that the Israeli government is afraid that
45:39
the the the stance is somewhat weakening and um the uh that stance is weakening is actually
45:50
somewhat serving as motivation to being a little bit more aggressive. It's it's almost like they're concerned that they they may have a shorter runway. Yeah. And that that that dynamic, I think,
46:01
is at play on both the right and the left, right? It's it's it's rare that you would find,
46:07
for example, a Bernie Sanders supporter among young people that wouldn't um have objections
46:14
to the way that Netanyahu has behaved during the the Gaza conflict and in response to October 7th.
46:20
And similarly on the right, there's very very similar things going on. It's interesting. It takes a while for the activist wing of a of a party to exert itself politically fully. It it
46:36
you mentioned Vietnam. Vietnam is an interesting example because in the Johnson administration
46:46
um at the the Democratic National Convention which I believe was in Chicago that year
46:52
um there was a bunch of antivietnam protesters there but at the time Vietnam was still very
47:00
very strongly supported by the American public and I actually uh am of the view that Vietnam
47:07
was a much more justified war than than the Iraq war was actually myself because I I I believe in
47:14
some of the principles of the Cold War. And there was uh videos where ABC News and uh CBS and those
47:23
different uh media companies were capturing where Chicago police were clubbing uh you
47:29
know in some cases unconscious and arresting these anti-war protesters trying to disrupt the Democratic National Convention and saying hey Lyndon Johnson is in favor of war and the
47:39
uh there was a flash poll run I think it was by ABC immediately afterwards and they discovered
47:46
that the American public uh far from having the sympathy for the um for the protesters actually
47:52
was sympathetic to the police. So the it it took a long while before the sort of antivietnam war
48:03
wing took hold of the Democratic party and I don't think that that really was very very manifested
48:10
until like maybe the mid70s. So is quite quite a gap 10 or 15 years and so I don't think it's going
48:16
to be instantaneous. James, I' I've been struck by I mean I've visited uh a number of groups now
48:22
within the Muslim community here in in Dallas and uh I've been struck by just how many Muslims are
48:29
now uh pretty sympathetic I would say or at least acknowledging uh the rights position on Gaza.
48:38
You know, who would have thought that Marjgerie Taylor Green would have called this a genocide and um Bernie Sanders refuses to call it a genocide? And so there is there is a realignment,
Morality of The Right
48:47
maybe not a philosophical realignment, but certainly an acknowledgment that on the right
48:53
uh there's a morality there. And that morality, I think, extends beyond actually Gaza. extends
48:58
to a lot of social touchstone issues that that I think have impacted Muslim communities especially
49:04
those in in blue states for for for a for a long for a for a few years now actually you know in
49:11
Michigan there were demonstrations over school curriculums and and other parts of the country.
49:16
So I think there is this there is this broad maybe a realignment uh you know post 911 Muslims in in
49:23
America very much lurched to the left and and sought sanctuary within within progressives and
49:29
I think that's shifted. However, I was speaking to an imam yesterday, a very popular imam in the local community and you know his point he he he acknowledged all of what I've just said there.
49:41
But he also said but there is a deep Islamophobia within within the right and that's why we've got
49:47
to be extremely careful in terms of how we align ourselves if we are going to align ourselves with
49:52
the right like how how would you um how would you wrestle with these with with what's happening
49:59
what I think from the outside at least what I observe within the Muslim community. So, it's
50:06
interesting. We had um we had a very interesting uh situation here in Irving um where there was
50:14
um and this is where my friendships in the Muslim community started. We had um Miriam Adlesen who is
50:24
is a very um big donor uh and very convicted on the Zionist uh you know uh cause um decided she
50:33
wanted to build the world's largest casino here in Irving. And um it's very interesting. She uh she
50:42
initially or I don't want to say she I mean the company she she runs a company called Las Vegas Sands Corporation but the the Las Vegas Sands Corporation initially wanted to do this really
50:51
really quietly and draw minimal um attention from the public and from from the media and
50:58
um there was some good opportunities where uh one of the probably the most conservative councilman
51:07
on the council who's a friend of mine named Luis Kenosa, he ended up speaking out and saying, "Hey,
51:12
you know, I think that this could casino could lead to, you know, you an issue of predatory
51:18
gambling here in Irving." And at the time, if you look at the the map of Irving, like most of
51:24
the Muslim community is in, you know, two two of the of the six districts, uh, the north and uh,
51:33
the far west and by by their biggest mosques and those um, they were not initially aware of what
51:41
was going on. And so there began to be like an effort on the part of they were wanting to build
51:47
this world's largest artist casino um with right by the um the University of Dallas which is a very
51:56
prestigious conservative Catholic university that I'm an alumnest of and a lot of the alumni of the
52:03
University of Dallas and eventually formerly the University of Dallas itself said hey we can't have
52:09
the world's largest or we don't have asurances is that the associated crime and other issues
52:15
associated with um casinos in in typical studies, you know, wouldn't threaten the safety of our
52:21
female students and other things of that kind. And so the university sort of kind of woke up first
52:27
and then gradually like we began to dialogue more with the Muslim community and kind of bring them
52:33
uh more and more into the the the effort to sort of oppose this. Um the uh Las Vegas Sands
52:41
Corporation I in a public uh press conference they promised that they wouldn't um put any money
52:48
into Irving municipal elections. Irving is still has a small town feel even though it's kind of a
52:53
big city. It's 250,000 over 250,000. Uh but it's um but suddenly they they use this sort of shell
53:03
501c4 dark money organization to dump dump a bunch of money in and a lot of the citizens of Irving
53:09
kind of woke up and became really really concerned about this issue and um it it became a really big
53:16
rallying point where a lot of relationships were forged in particular between the Catholics who
53:22
were concerned about you know the University of Dallas and the the the Muslims who have religious
53:28
reasons for opposing casino gambling in a way that Catholics don't. Catholics don't have like a a religious prohibition on casino gambling in that way. But um but that that was a a really
53:41
amazing laboratory experience where people you know were talking and there was conversations and
53:48
um you know about you know conservative Catholics you know helping you know even do Gaza resolutions
53:54
and those those conversations you know there there's always a ways to go because the um I I I
54:02
think that that this is a movement that's growing and that that's that's that's going continue to be
54:08
more and more commonality. One of the things that you know we align on in addition to uh casinos uh
54:16
you know is the the whole issue it most of the Irving uh Muslim community is very against sort
54:23
of the more aggressive forms of the LGBT movement and there has been a lot of inroads made in Irving
54:31
over the last five or six years um just in terms of like putting uh you know more propaganda out
54:39
there in that regard. And one of the things that had happened that was really upsetting to the Muslim community is that the uh in during Ramadan, I guess the uh the library director decided to put
54:50
out a book about how it was like my Ramadan, you know, coming out or something. I forget what it
54:57
was called, but something like that where it was like, you know, it was kind of trying to appeal to the Muslim community about, hey, this is something that we we should foster and encourage. And a lot
55:06
of the parents were very upset about it and and they expressed opposition. It was something that we had al also uh been against not just LGBT but any any sort of pornographic uh materials
55:17
and and and so the the push back has been you know strongly an aligned issue for us. And so there's
55:23
there's a lot of ways in which that we can work together. One thing that I hesitate about um I I
55:31
tend I don't like I don't like discrimination against Muslims and there's actually been
55:39
interesting examples of discriminations against Muslims in Texas and in particular in Irving
55:44
which I'd love to explain to you. Please. Um, so the um, so I mentioned that um, that uh, okay,
55:56
this is a little gets into the weeds a little bit. So there's um so Miriam Madson, the the
56:05
the large Zionist donor that I mentioned, um she has been trying to push the legalization of casino
56:11
gambling in Texas in addition to uh trying to get a site, you know, approved in Irving. And so her
56:17
her order of operations for it was going to be she was going to try to get a zoning approval for
56:22
a casino in Irving conditional on Texas approving it at the state level. Then she was going to sort
56:28
of have her her army of lobbyists that she had hired go to the Texas legislature and say, "Hey, we've got polling. The majority of Texans want casino gambling. The city of Irving wants, you
56:38
know, the world's largest artist casino here right here in Irving. And you know, there's really no reason for you guys to serve as roadblocks to the desire of the people to bring casino gambling into
56:47
Texas." And she had thrown a lot of money into the process. Um but uh one of the things that you
56:58
know she she had given money to for example um a congressman a lot of money to a congressman by the
57:05
name of of Jeff Leachch and she had um there had been sort of uh this whole question of the epic
57:13
mosque uh controversy which is up in Plano which is a little bit north of us down here in Irving.
57:20
But the there was what happened was a bunch of people who she had very very heavily funded
57:27
uh began pushing this idea um Greg Abbott among others like pushing this idea that this was sort
57:34
of a backdoor to bringing Sharia law uh into Texas um because in particular the mosque was going to
57:42
be part of a housing complex and that most of the marketing was geared towards marketing to Muslims.
57:48
Now, I think what a lot of people who may not be Muslims that may view this may not understand is
57:55
that Muslims often go to the mosque five times a day um to pray. And so proximity for a Muslim to
58:04
the mosque is from a religious perspective, religious freedom perspective is much more important than Catholics because like I typically would not visit a church more than twice a day,
58:15
you know, and that would be unusually high for for a Catholic's uh frequency of going into a
58:21
specific church. And so Muslims tend to want to congregate pretty strongly around the mosque so they can maybe be within walking distance and things like that to do the the the five prayers
58:31
a day and things like that. And so that sort of exaggerated like Islamophobia issue kind of
58:41
uh cropped up right after um a bunch of Muslims had shown up um and started speaking against the
58:49
world's largest casino at city hall. And there was a connection all we it's not provable but but
58:55
what I will say is that the donations from Miriam Adlesen flowed into most strongly the politicians
59:01
who were pushing for this um and suddenly that they were they were talking about the
59:06
um the uh epic mosque in Irv in Plano and that seemed potentially unrelated to Irving but
59:14
then there's a group which is called resistance against Islamic radicals um foundation LL LLC. So,
59:23
it's it's called Foundation, but it actually is an LLC registered in Delaware. So, it has u I guess a
59:30
for-profit business model, I guess, uh even though it's called a foundation. And the foundation
59:36
uh right after that sent a um they sent a um an reporter or whatever they call it into West
59:47
Irving around one of the bigger mosques which is on I don't want to get bore your British audience
59:52
but it's it's in West Irving and they um they went in and they had gone through and they were like oh
1:00:02
look like there's all these Muslims living here. There's these women's walking around in hijabs and blah blah blah. This is clear that this is um uh Sharia law has come has come to uh has come to
1:00:14
West Irving also in addition to Plano. And um it's interesting the day after the Resistance
1:00:20
Against Islamic Radicals Foundation LLC published this story as it was called on its website. Oh
1:00:26
yeah. And the evidence that they gave that Sharia law was there was kind of funny that there there
1:00:32
were Muslim street names. So like you know you know Quazar Quasmari Boulevard and and they're
1:00:39
like oh look see there's Muslim street names and then the the parks that they they went to video uh
1:00:46
had um no dog signs. Now, there's no dog signs in many parks and and obviously Muslims, as you know,
1:00:55
like they don't have as many dogs as Christians. Um, that's something that I don't have to explain to you, but uh but dogs are not as much a part of Muslim culture to put it very mildly. And so,
1:01:04
like, okay, there's no dog signs in the park. There's Quazar Quazmari Boulevard and you know, and these people are all living in this complex that's right around the mosque and they are all
1:01:13
wearing hijabs and stuff. So, like clearly like Sharia law has come to Irving. And I'm just like,
1:01:18
are you serious? And and to me, it's interesting because some of the activists who had been
1:01:24
most vocal against the casino project in Irving started to get pressure from more
1:01:30
uh cautious elements uh in the Muslim leadership world that were like, "Hey, we um we're going to
1:01:36
get retaliated against if we don't um you know, if we don't um you know, if we don't stop speaking
1:01:43
out against this casino." And there's a handful of community uh or or housing associations that
1:01:54
um that shared a property management company that they this sort of property management company is
1:01:59
the kind that would just like do the lawns like plant the bushes and water everything and all that
1:02:04
kind of stuff. And they the day after this report came out, they sent a letter to all seven of the
1:02:11
Muslim majority communities saying that they were discontinuing services which they had um they had
1:02:17
had for 10 or 15 years. Um I I have uh you know I have actually been advocating inside the Muslim
1:02:24
community that that this is something that they should take legal action against. And you know,
1:02:30
my understanding from from consulting with some of my friends who are attorneys is that there's very clear issues with um violating the religious discrimination rules uh in this issue
1:02:44
in what's called fair housing law. And so it's sort it's a very very winnable case probably
1:02:50
uh I'm not an attorney so please don't take that to the to the courtroom but but it's apparently a very very winnable case where you could you could set a precedent that like you can't discriminate
1:02:59
against someone because the names are Quazamari Boulevard the women are wearing hijabs and there's no dogs in some of the parks. Um and so uh so the um but you know in that community in those
1:03:13
neighborhood associations several of the folks you know and I don't mean to criticize anyone
1:03:18
and I don't even know their names but some some of the folks are who are more cautious think that they shouldn't bring litigation because they're afraid that they'll draw the eye of Sauron more
1:03:27
on the Muslim community you know if they if they sue to vindicate their rights and and and that
1:03:34
sort of question I gets to the heart of where we can work together because I I you know we have you
1:03:41
know comm people in the Catholic world that know their way around the courts that you know know these these legal issues and you know we there's so much opportunity for collaboration but there
1:03:51
is I think I think the the fear that the right is Islamophobic is probably part of the caution
1:03:59
on the Muslim side and that you know I think that it's one of these things where if there if
1:04:07
this fear is allowed to germinate un undelt with then there's not going to be a you know a real
1:04:16
alignment that there could be one other thing I want to say um about the term Islamophobia and one
1:04:21
of the terms things I don't like about the term even though I agree they're just like I described
1:04:27
is anti-Muslim discrimination uh I prefer that term but the thing I don't like about Islamophobia
1:04:34
is because I'm Catholic. You're Muslim. I hope and pray that you will become Catholic tomorrow. And
1:04:44
I expect if you're a good Muslim that you would want me to, you know, recite to become Muslim,
1:04:50
you know, and so so I don't, one thing I don't like about the term Islamophobia is it doesn't
1:04:57
make a distinction between religious zeal and sort of like sort of a political um attitude. and
1:05:05
and that I think you know is is something the term Islamophobia is never going to be something that's
1:05:11
very frequently discussed on the right because the term is it it has too much baggage. Yeah. No,
Alignment to The Left
1:05:17
I I I I accept that and I I think there is a a feeling I I spoke to some people who were involved
1:05:23
with the um um with the these common conversations that you've been having and over the casino and
1:05:29
and the action you took and I I feel that there is certainly scope for um for um an alignment there
1:05:37
and and at least to have uh these continuous conversations and I I just think that fear
1:05:42
exists and and possibly there are some on the on the progressive left who are stoking those fears
1:05:48
to to ensure that um Muslim communities here do not um you know do not see their lot in any
1:05:56
other political party except for the Democrats. Um but I I think I think there is a a coming of
1:06:03
age it seems to me of Muslims here in America and they've realized that uh we need to do politics
1:06:10
in a transactional way and we need to think more deeply about how we're um uh aligning ourselves
1:06:15
as as Muslim communities and and think about our long-term interests as Muslim communities
1:06:22
here in America as well as uh the interests of of American foreign policy and how that should
1:06:28
um uh be pursued in in Muslim countries in places like Gaza. Um that's why I think it's it's a
1:06:35
fascinating I've come at a very fascinating time I think um both on a domestic and and international
1:06:40
front and um from afar at least you know as a as a British Muslim you know we've we've almost
1:06:48
we almost came to the conclusion that the MAGA right or the republican right um is is this you
1:06:57
know Islamophobic or anti-Muslim um contingent where there is just no way of rationally having
1:07:05
uh having relationships. Um and I I think that I've I've been now you're seeing that the person
1:07:11
who's most outspoken on the issue is Marjorie Taylor Green of all. Yeah. You know, yeah, that's right. And no one's going to accuse her of being like a wishy-washy moderate. Absolutely. I think
1:07:19
Gaza has been a a wakeup call and I think you know what we've witnessed of Tucker Carlson his
1:07:25
his most recent interviews and and um Candi Solen I think has been has been extraordinary really um
1:07:33
so there is a there is an interesting development here and um I would like to I would like to follow
1:07:39
it I think in over these next few years I suppose one last thing maybe a question for you I mean
1:07:45
you know one one of the concerns another concern that the Muslim community have here is that uh the
1:07:51
original alignment to the left cost the Muslim community quite quite dearly because that that
1:07:58
alignment led to a an ideological commitment with especially amongst younger Muslims that um that
1:08:07
compromised I think our faith uh in in in so many ways and I think there is that fear as well that
1:08:14
uh that alignment with the right may create another series of unintended consequences. I mean,
1:08:21
I don't know if you have any thoughts about about that. Well, my view my view is that the biggest
1:08:28
danger uh to the Muslim faith uh not that I can be considered an authority on the topic. Yeah. Would
1:08:36
be the sort of indifferatism that's poisonous to all religions. And so if if Muslims are um are
1:08:49
dealing with authentic Catholics or Protestants or whatever, like evangelicals, whatever it might be,
1:08:55
like who would be eager to see them baptized, but are happy to work with them politically, um then
1:09:06
there's a there's a faith authenticity that you're dealing with. Whereas, you know, it's interesting
1:09:11
because I um you know, I I I associate somewhat with um you know, with some of the the the folks
1:09:19
who are been activists on on the question of Gaza um particularly um Dr. Bal Paratra and he's he's a
1:09:27
a big leader in this community here on that issue and he it's interesting um now he's building a
1:09:35
coalition that's very focused on Gaza and it makes sense that he is going to try to cast the widest possible net to bring in as many people but you know I'm definitely seeing you know when there was
1:09:47
a meeting there was a really intense conversation that I was I was surprised some of the younger
1:09:54
Muslims were taking any position opposed to to me. They they said, "Hey, if we want to build a
1:10:00
larger movement, where do values come in?" Things like, you know, the the the stance of, you know,
1:10:07
both Christianity and Islam on homosexuality and other shared stances. Um, now the Catholic Church,
1:10:15
you know, is even more morally conservative on sexual issues than the the Muslim religion,
1:10:22
but in general there there's kind of a strong alignment on val on questions of value and,
1:10:27
you know, raising people as well as possible in in in an ideal situation of having a loving
1:10:32
father and mother. Um, you know, obviously there's people that that can't be in that situation for
1:10:38
for reasons through no fault of their own. you know, no one no one's condemning them, but that sort of values alignment uh some of the some of the Muslims were like,
1:10:47
"This is really important. This needs to be part of any sort of big tent thing." And I said, "If you guys take out this values piece, then you you can just be associated with just the the
1:11:01
liberal activists like and and there were there were people in in some of these conversations that you know are atheistic, Marxist, you know, like you know, people that are stalwarts of the left
1:11:12
um who I would have very very little in common with uh other than perhaps a few foreign policy
1:11:17
things. Um, and I think it's very important for Muslims to be aware of the secularizing influence
1:11:26
of indifferentism. And as long as Islamophobia is thought of as if someone wants to convert me,
1:11:35
they're Islamophobic, then we can't have we can't have any alignment. I've never heard that. I've
1:11:40
never heard a Muslim who believes in who doesn't believe in it's probably it's probably to be honest. I I I'm saying the way that conservatives hear the word Islamophobia. Yeah. When we hear the
1:11:51
word Islamophobia, we hear, "Oh, this is an anti- evangelism like potential term." And that that's
1:12:00
that's one thing that I hesitate about the term. You know, anti-Muslim discrimination to me is much much clearer and just so much less baggage as I said before. But yeah. Um but anyway, that
1:12:11
that's kind of my my my view on that. like what just to since I've become friends with Muslims,
1:12:16
two of the things that I'm particularly impressed by um you know one was I became friends with
1:12:24
Muslims during Ramadan and um it's interesting I'm a history nerd and so I had I've even read some of
1:12:33
the early encounters between you know the Franks and the Muslims in the wars in in Spain and France
1:12:40
you know in the ninth you a century and so eth and nth centuries and so forth. And back in the day,
1:12:48
Catholics used to have a very strict observance of Lent. And what we used to have is we'd have 40
1:12:54
days where you would only eat one vegan meal after dark. Mhm. And they used to say, "Oh,
1:13:00
look, the Muslims only do 30 days and, you know, they're allowed to eat meat during Ramadan." Like,
1:13:05
you know, this is this is like this is soft uh soft uh fasting. and you know and now like
1:13:12
Catholics you know don't even come close to the Muslim standards on fasting and so that's actually
1:13:18
been really inspiring to me to try to take take my faith on fasting more seriously and and as I
1:13:23
mentioned earlier like the the the question of usery um it's it it's interesting mo the modern
1:13:30
west has this huge problem it's creating massive discontent on both the left and the right with these kids graduating $120,000 in student loan debt um you know just basically slaves um and uh
1:13:43
to to to their debts. And those those teachings um you know there there were some disagreements
1:13:52
between Aquinus and Averies like back in the day on what exactly uh was illicit interest.
1:14:02
um like Aquinus for example would be okay with something like bonds and something like uh
1:14:08
mortgages that are fully collateralized. I don't want to go too far into the weeds on that but you
1:14:13
know whereas a veroise said no no interest never. Um but Aquinus and a Verowise are much closer than
1:14:21
Aquinus and you know the current chairman of the Federal Reserve Jerome Powell. You know what I mean? So like, so I I I've admired that the the the Muslims have actually held closer um on that.
1:14:35
It's interesting. There's a um a nonprofit that I was recently looking up that uh uh that's run by
1:14:42
Muslims that does I think it's called the Infinite Education Program or something. Um and they they
1:14:49
make interest free loans to Muslims seeking to go to college. Oh yes. And um and that's all based on
1:14:56
of course the the usery teaching. They're trying to you know make that doable for their own people. Um and and it's interesting Jews actually do something similar. They have um the what's called
1:15:05
Hebrew Free Loan Association of Dallas. There's one in Fort Worth and they do the same thing for Jews. It's interesting. Catholics haven't actually been as disciplined about about putting that into
1:15:16
force. And so, like, those are two things where I feel like discovering what Muslims are doing now
1:15:21
is allowing me to more authentically go deeper in my own faith and be like, well, why why haven't there been really strong nonprofit set up to allow Catholics to uh get a college education
1:15:33
without going into um uh debt that charges interest, you know what I mean? James James Bell,
1:15:39
it's really been a fascinating conversation today. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head
1:15:50
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