Ep 271. - How Big Tech Feeds Israel’s War Machine | Ibtihal Aboussad
This week on The Thinking Muslim podcast, we are joined by Ibtihal Aboussad to discuss Microsoft’s complicity in the Gaza genocide. We talk about the viral action she took against the company and her decision to place the Ummah and justice above her career.
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
New Show! Hats Off
0:01
I think we need another show on the podcast. Really? Yeah. I think that the problem really
0:07
is that I'm not really suited for those types of interviews. Um, you know, like an interview
0:12
that interrogates uh an interview that really challenges different thinkers, conservatives,
0:19
liberals, those on the left, those on the right. Interesting. Um, even those Muslims who don't fall within our ideological tradition. You don't think you can do that? I just think
0:30
it's not my style. I I don't think I'm cut out for that type of interrogative. Right.
0:35
Yeah. I suppose the question is who's going to do it? You know, that's my u that's my question.
0:45
I'll do it. We live in urgent times. The world order as we know it is falling apart around us.
0:53
We're going to need to ask very difficult questions to get to the bottom of what's wrong with the world and how to set it right. That's why I'm teaming up with
1:01
the thinking Muslim for a new program where we're going to bring in guests. Maybe not the usual suspects that you would expect. And we're not going to be asking
1:09
the typical questions. We're not going to play polite. We're going to ask the hard questions that are going to get to the bottom of things. We're going to be hats off.
Introduction
1:25
Microsoft is still the most embedded technological company in in this genocide. So there'll be a
1:31
number of viewers who just don't understand the level with which this technology is used to contribute to the killing machine which is Israeli military. So can you spell that
1:41
out? what Microsoft provides to the IOF and to the Israeli government. These products
1:46
come together to basically generate target lists in Ghaza. These systems allow the IOF
1:52
to know this area is going to have the most number of journalists. For example, uh at this time of day, we know from their conversations that people are going to be in
2:01
this tent and then they send the bomb there. When Ial Abuad was sacked by Microsoft for
2:06
taking a very public stand over its alleged complicity with genocide, she made a decision
2:12
to place Ummah and justice above her career. I met this inspirational young lady in Toronto
2:19
to untangle the dilemmas so many of us face in our professional lives. Are you saying that no
2:26
one with a conscience should be working for Microsoft at this stage? We're two billion Muslims that could have so much power, but we're not united. I don't think there's a third option
2:35
where you stay at the company and you're just, you know, profiting off of like blood paychecks.
2:46
And welcome to the Thinking Muslim. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited uh to have you with
2:54
us here on Thinking Muslim because I think all of us saw that video that went around a viral
3:00
video really that uh when you took a stand against um Microsoft, you were working for Microsoft and
3:08
you took a stand and you uh very explicitly very openly expressed your concerns about Microsoft and
3:16
their connection indeed complicity when it comes to genocide in in Gaza. I want to explore that
3:22
entire episode but also the wider implications of Muslims in tech as well as of course uh Microsoft
3:29
as an organization and how complicit they really are. Now I suppose the first place to start is
3:35
you know you you ultimately lost your job as a result of taking taking a stand. Uh there are some
3:42
Muslims who would probably say who still say that uh was that the most wisest thing to do? Should
3:49
you not have stayed in the company um and fought uh from within because you had more influence
3:56
within a company than say outside a company? I how would you respond to that? Yeah. Yeah,
Change from Inside Microsoft?
4:02
for sure. Um yeah, that is a point uh that I did hear a lot in the aftermath. Uh one thing I'll say
4:10
is people saw like that viral moment that public uh like demonstration but behind it were months of
4:17
you know trying to change things from the inside as people say. Uh like we tried having petitions,
4:22
we tried meeting with like senior executives. Uh we tried having you know more quote unquote
4:28
peaceful um uh events on campus. We sent emails. We sent teams messages. Like we did try to explore
4:37
those avenues, right? like ultimately um it it is it is better if you know no one has to
4:43
lose their job. Everyone is just able to make that change internally. But after a year of only seeing
4:49
like deaf ears or repression like employees getting suspended uh because of petitions,
4:55
employees getting fired because of a vigil. Um this it became clear that those methods that you
5:01
know people say, "Oh, just do that. Uh we're not going to work." So that's why, you know, like as
5:07
as we're watching the genocide unfold and we're watching how terrible things are in Gaza, like we can't afford to have like a five-year strategy to um end Microsoft's complicity, it became urgent to
5:18
escalate um in a way that Microsoft would not be able to ignore and like all our internal efforts.
Microsoft Management
5:25
Right? So there were Muslims, non-Muslims at Microsoft who were engaged in quiet diplomacy
5:32
uh within Microsoft trying to explain the sort of the links between Microsoft products and and the
5:39
genocide and and your argument is uh those voices fell on deaf ears like the management just were
5:45
not concerned about those links. I mean how how far did you get like how many when it comes to
5:50
management uh who did you speak to and and what were their responses? Yeah. Yeah. Um so we know
5:57
for a fact that everyone at the top level of my like the seauite was aware of our concerns
6:03
um did receive our emails or petitions. uh we had a group of employees both Palestinian and
6:09
non-Palestinian uh meet with someone at the like second level of the company and all we would get
6:14
back is we we'll work on it or like we'll get back to you like it was it was very much like
6:20
dragging their feet um on the topic. So like this is to say that like all these avenues that they
6:27
prefer that they recommend did work and even or sorry did not work and even at like town halls for
6:33
example by the VPs and um and like everyone that's higher up we would submit questions
6:39
um on on Microsoft's complicity and they would either get deleted or ignored even though they're like the most upvoted. So clearly those preferred methods were not were not leading to anything.
6:49
Right. Um and you were protesting specifically against a Microsoft product Azure. Um what is
How problematic is Microsoft Azure
6:56
it about Azure that makes it so problematic when it comes to Israel and this genocide? Yeah. Uh so
7:04
basically there are three aspects of of Azure that are you know that that power everything that's
7:10
going on in Palestine. There's the AI side, the cloud side and the Azure storage side of things.
7:17
um altogether essentially what what Microsoft provides to the IOF and to the Israeli government
7:24
are um customized storage solutions to be able to store calls from Palestinians all around Palestine
7:32
uh for tracking purposes, for targeted purposes. And so these products come together to basically
7:38
generate target lists um in in Gaza and to aid the the prison system in in the West Bank in occupied
7:46
Palestine. So it's essentially like um like a powerhouse of of surveillance um and of tracking
7:53
and then ultimately of targeting like these these systems allow the IOF to know this area
7:59
is going to have the most number of journalists for example u at this time of day. We know from
8:04
their conversations that people are going to be in this tent and then they send the bomb there. So a lot of people talk about you know the complicity of like the US in terms of like physical weapons
8:15
but these weapons would not and and this is not these are not my words like coming from Israel
8:21
like from IOF officials they have admitted that without Microsoft's technology the harm would not
8:27
have been to this extent like in their words it's like we would not have these targeting um like abilities it's all it's all because of Microsoft alaykum this is Your brother Mean Mtar,
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with Balme. Visit btml. us/thinking Muslim to learn more and give. Right. Okay. So,
9:35
there'll be a number of viewers who just don't understand uh the level by which uh with which
Mass Surveillance of Palestinians
9:41
this technology is used on a daily basis to surveil and to intrude and to contribute to
9:49
the killing machine which is Israeli uh military. Um so, can you spell that out? You talked about
9:55
biometric surveillance, facial recognition. Um, I've heard of an app called Al-Masi. What What is
10:01
it about these technologies that really hinders if not destroys the lives of ordinary Palestinians?
10:09
I'll say yeah like step one uh that I mentioned earlier is just it's been revealed uh through like
10:15
extensive documentation that Microsoft like sends uh a customized storage solution to unit 8200
10:24
to store the phone calls of any Palestinian in Palestine. So there's a that just having access to
10:30
that data to what Palestinians are communicating every phone call a Palestinian phone not just
10:36
Gaza not just specific areas all of Palestine um and and the thing is Microsoft will come out and
10:43
say oh we can't control that our storage is being used this way but the rebuttal is there are clear
10:49
um like contracts that workers have access to and there are clear words from the Israeli government
10:55
about how Microsoft sat down with unit 8200 and came up with this custom solution so that all
11:02
these calls can be stored because it is a large volume. It's it is a huge volume and we also have data that um like the the storage uh volume um of on Microsoft cloud uh increased by 60% uh
11:17
following October 2023 by the IO. So that's part one is just tracking Palestinians every move. And
11:23
the crazy part is even if you're a Palestinian, say in Canada, and you make a phone call to your
11:29
family back home in Palestine, that call can also be added to this database. So, it's just
11:34
like a huge like mass surveillance system that Microsoft is enabling. Um, the other aspect, the
11:41
AI aspect really is being able to transcribe and then translate these conversations to then have
11:48
summaries of our target is going to be in this place or this area is going to be hugely populated
11:54
because ultimately like what are you going to do with all these phone calls if you don't you're not analyzing them. So that's the second chunk of Microsoft products like the the AI side of
12:03
things is to synthesize all all the surveillance data for you know like targeted purposes and and
12:11
um even like outside Gaza to go and like kidnap uh Palestinians in the West Bank based on knowing
12:17
their whereabouts with with these phone calls. Okay. and and in in direct relationship with the
Evidence of IOF Microsoft usage
12:23
genocide. Is there any do we have any firm um evidence that Microsoft products are being used
12:30
uh in Gaza at this moment beyond the surveillance technologies you speak of? Yes. Uh one statistic
12:38
we have for sure is in the four months before October 2023 compared to the six months after
12:44
October 2023 the usage of Microsoft AI by the IOF multiplied by 200. So like it's not like a sign
12:53
like an insignificant number where you can think it's um it's like a coincidence. It's clearly
12:59
like once uh this this um you know this ongoing genocide began uh they started resorting to to AI
13:07
you know to generate these these target lists. So it's essentially um generating target lists of of
13:13
locations and individuals that the bombs should be sent to. I mean um you've used the word on a
Microsoft’s Complicity
13:20
number of occasions that Microsoft is complicit. That's quite a heavy claim. Um especially for a
13:25
company that provides technology solutions. I suppose Microsoft would argue that, you know, there there's huge layers of contracts here. There are services and intermediaries in between. How
13:36
complicit is Microsoft when it comes to Israel and Palestine? What's funny is like in Microsoft's um
13:43
I guess like rebuttal to our accusations, they they always repeat this thing that like, oh, but we we don't have control over whether our technology is misused. Like they keep
13:53
using this word misused as if it's unintentional. like they're just throwing it out there and this
13:58
customer is grabbing it for an affairs purposes. But what we know is the the contracts with the
14:04
IOF and the meetings with the Israeli government are very very uh focused on on this use case. Like
14:11
Microsoft does not um you know it's not like the way that I would use Microsoft AI or you would.
14:17
These are and and the CEO bragged about how they only finalized the the surveillance contract in
14:22
10 minutes. like he was like, "Oh, we we had a 10-minute meeting and it was so fruitful." So, there's a level of care and attention that's given to Israel that's not given to anyone else. Even
14:31
from employees at Microsoft who work in support engineering, meaning any incidents and tickets,
14:37
Microsoft has a dedicated team or multiple teams actually that are only for engineering support
14:44
for these Israeli clients. So overall like we have a lot of evidence that Microsoft is
14:50
you know treated them treating them with the utmost utmost care like it's not it's not an unintended misuse of the technology. I mean of course Microsoft is an American company.
Other tech companies
15:00
I mean is it the most egregious American company technology company when it comes to
15:06
uh collusion and and complicity in this genocide in with Israel and and Israel's actions? I mean,
15:11
are there worst offenders out there from your knowledge? In terms of tech companies, um, in
15:17
the words of actual Israeli officials, Microsoft is is like the most helpful to them, which means
15:23
like the most complicit. Uh, like a lot of people will point to Amazon and Google and how they have
15:28
uh, project Nimbus, which is also a cloud, like a storage contract uh, with Israel. Uh but what
15:35
is less talked about is sure this contract exists but that's in theory but in reality um a lot of
15:42
these um IOF soldiers and like Israeli officials still use Microsoft Azure instead because that was
15:49
the previous contract and they're not willing to fully switch to Amazon or Google. So in practice,
15:56
Microsoft is still the most embedded technological company in in this genocide. Like and as we as we
16:03
talked about it, it's in the surveillance, it's in the targeting, it's in the prison system, it's in the water theft, like every layer of oppression uh of Israel. Microsoft is in is
16:14
powering somehow. So it's it's not just, you know, like one one aspect of of the occupation of the
16:20
apartheid. It's really just powering every every aspect of the system thinking Muslim.
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17:05
Ital in your action you you spoke to uh a man called Mustafa Mustafa Slemani who's
Why disrupt Mustafa?
17:12
uh uh head of AI or at at Microsoft. Um tell me a little bit about Mustafa like why did you
17:20
decide to focus in on Mustafa? Was it because he's got a Muslim sounding name? You know,
17:25
um what's what is it about Mustafa that uh is, you know, is challenging when it comes to when
17:32
it comes to Microsoft and its its uh use of technology in Israel. Yeah, there's multiple
17:38
reasons that went behind, you know, um disrupting Mustafa specifically. Um a big one is out of all
17:45
executives at Microsoft, he's the one that likes to preach preach the most about AI can be used for
17:51
good. like just like whitewashing this image of Microsoft AI as a tool for you know social impact
17:58
and and empowering humans. That is his favorite thing to talk about. And as a matter of fact, like
18:04
during the talk that I disrupted, he was going on on that whole, you know, Microsoft AI is changing
18:10
lives. And so like just that level of um I would say like hypocrisy, you know, and whitewashing
18:16
of of Microsoft's crimes made him like someone that that I wanted to call out. Um the second
18:22
thing like as you mentioned um like Mustafa is part Syrian part Syrian um always talks in every
18:30
like occasion about uh my dad is a refugee who moved to the UK this this that and it's so it is
18:36
someone who is familiar with with you know with with the oppression of the west it's someone who
18:42
is familiar with you know having refugee family members so just calling out like a point that I
18:48
specifically like told him is what would your family say about this like you you know this like you know oppression you know war so why are you enabling it you know within within a separate
18:58
country um and another thing is I did work at Microsoft AI like that was my division within
19:04
Microsoft which ironically was sold to me as like it's for same thing like it's an accessibility
19:10
product it helps people with disabilities access Windows tools etc and then come to find out like
19:16
it's it's the opposite usage without our consent That's so young. I felt that uh when you did that
Ethical career responsibilities
19:23
action, it really sent a signal to large numbers of conscientious but also Muslims, young Muslims
19:30
who are working in tech. Um I get often get questions when we do a show on finance, you know,
19:36
and and sort of how close some of the Islamic finance scene is with, you know, capitalist companies that are very close to Israel. And I get, you know, a barrage of questions from
19:45
young Muslims who ask, you know, how complicit am I? I'm working for company X and company X has a
19:51
contract with Palunteer for example. Um you know how complicit am I? Should I leave the company?
19:58
That just explain uh the ethical responsibilities I suppose we have or young Muslims or Muslims have
20:04
or anyone has really when it comes to uh becoming engineers and developers and tech workers within
20:11
these platforms like Azure. um you know are you saying that there should be zero no one with a
20:17
conscience uh should be working for for Microsoft at this stage I think ultimately um like I would
20:25
say in my opinion like Muslims have two options it's either you do not uh stay in this space
20:32
like once you find out about this complicity or you stay but for the sake of of organizing of of
20:38
making a change if if you feel like you have that power uh especially for example if someone is like
20:43
a manager or like at a at a higher level in that company and you think you can have an influence,
20:49
then it might be better to be in that position. But I don't think there's a third option where
20:55
you stay at the company and you're just, you know, profiting off of like blood paychecks,
21:00
which they ultimately are, because you don't know how much of your paycheck is coming from Israeli contracts. Just taking that paycheck and and staying silent on on everything that's going on.
21:10
Yeah. uh how transparent is Microsoft like you've I know that you and your colleagues have tried to
How Transparent is Microsoft?
21:16
unear uh those links between the technology the company and countries like or states like is or
21:24
regimes like Israel in the way they function uh in Palestinian occupied territories Gaza etc.
21:30
But uh do we know really the full extent of their um uh of this web of these connections
21:38
uh with Israel? Unfortunately, no. Uh every like couple of months uh we get some new like bombshell
21:47
that's dropped. Like for me personally like the trigger that made me want to leave is when um after like a year and a half there like we got more news about the involvement of Microsoft AI
21:58
because we initially thought it was just storage and the AI side of things is done separately.
22:04
Uh but every couple of months essentially the complicity facts just get worse because Microsoft is not disclosing these these ties is not disclosing these customized contracts. So it's
22:16
it ends up being like investigative journalists and whistleblowers who have to dig and dig and
22:21
then find something more horrible as as time goes by. I should have asked you this at the beginning,
22:26
but what what were what did you do for Microsoft? Like what was your position in Microsoft when you
22:32
when you committed yourself to this action? So I was a software engineer um at Microsoft AI on the
22:39
like speech and and translation side of things, right? Yeah. So you were a software engineer. So
Future careers in tech
22:44
of course there tons of you know Muslim community are full of software engineers and we're here in Canada at the moment and uh there's a brother here in you know who's who's looking on who's currently
22:53
studying uh computer science and it's very very possible that he'll become a software engineer. Um
23:01
um that really does create a dilemma I think for young Muslims. Um, just talk us through that
23:07
dilemma. Like a young Muslim who's conscientious, who wants to do good for his ummah, who doesn't
23:13
want his work, his handiwork or her handiwork to contribute to to genocide. Like talk us through
23:21
that dilemma and how one should go about making a decision when it comes to future careers in tech.
23:27
I think there are so many aspects to that decision that end up pushing um many people including
23:33
myself when I like 2021 when I left college. Um there are a lot of factors that push folks towards
23:40
big tech specifically. One of them is just career safety like knowing you're somewhere that has like
23:46
a lot of roles that where you can have like career growth become like a VP become this this that um
23:52
that makes these like safer companies attractive. Um there's also frankly just the prestige which
23:59
I think and like fortunately is starting to fade away like just the image of like Amazon, Google,
24:05
Microsoft is like the best uh most prestigious places you can work which now given their complicity is fading away but so it's not just the students themselves that go and decide like okay I
24:16
love Windows and I want to work at Microsoft it's also like these societal aspects. Um I would say
24:24
ultimately like there are two um there are two alternatives to to just you know going for for
24:30
these routes. One is when we talk about the complicity of these companies, a lot of people will say, well, like what's the alternative, right? Like for example, at my job, we use one
24:40
of these three for like our our documents, for our like uh drive. Um because like it there's just a
24:47
question of what else can we can we use? And so I think now is a perfect time for you know like
24:53
talented enthusiastic people in tech to actually build these alternatives. like we cannot have a
24:59
reliance on these genocide enabling companies for life and just beg for them to you know be on on on
25:06
the good side of history. We have so many folks that are disillusioned with with the state of of
25:12
these companies and it is it is a prime time to find collaborators and and find alternatives. Uh
25:17
the other way is like quite frankly like a lot of people will be like well if you're ruling
25:22
out Google, Amazon, Palanteer, Meta like where am I going to go? But these are not even like
25:28
10% of of like tech companies like globally like there are a lot of alternatives. Sure like with
25:34
lesser known names. Uh but there's just a myth that oh everywhere is complicit so let me just
25:41
go to Microsoft but there are so many places that need tech talent that are not disemboded
25:46
in the genocide. Right. Um I'm interested in that finding alternatives because of course
Alternatives
25:52
um what I've noticed is in particular amongst younger generations, younger Muslims, uh Gaza
25:57
has become a you know a way of bringing people together and we've seen amazing collaboration
26:04
within the tech community and beyond uh to try to find solutions to uh these intractable problems,
26:10
these major problems that the UMA faces. Um are you arguing that we need to really think seriously
26:17
about creating our own ecosystems, our own tech tech ecosystems which are away from uh these big
26:24
tech companies. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Um and that's not just on you know like recent graduates to go
26:32
and like start their ventures. It's also on our institutions to help with funding, help with incubators, help with mentorship. Like it's not I'm like I'm I'm not saying it's
26:41
just going to be like you know five people come together and they uh like change it all. It's also
26:47
I guess like a mindset change where instead of you know just hoping that things will get better in
26:52
these companies that instead like our our massagid our big donors also like put put their money and
26:59
their support behind creating these alternative ecosystems. for sure if to I'm pretty old school
Boycott Microsoft?
27:05
when it comes to uh software and I I'm relying on Word and Excel and you know PowerPoint and these
27:12
sorts of Microsoft products should I really be using you know office in my day-to-day life based
27:18
you know after what you've just said about this complicity this connection between Microsoft and
27:24
and Israel actually in the BDS list um like Google Google Amazon Microsoft are a pressure target and
27:33
what's a priority target meaning like top level of boycott is just Xbox like the gaming suite for
27:40
Microsoft and the reason for that is even like the the BDS like national committee realized
27:46
because again we don't have these alternatives um and we've fallen behind in terms of creating our
27:52
own tools it is easier to just it it is more not easier like more possible for people to boycott uh
27:59
like the gaming suite or like co-pilot like these things that are optional and used in your personal
28:04
life versus uh like Google Drive and Microsoft Word which a lot of the times you know that's
28:10
set by like your employer and there's no like it's it's either you use this one or this one otherwise
28:16
like you can't have a functioning like company. Um, so even in our calls for boycott like we're
28:22
not trying to make this overwhelming and like you have to get rid of all these three like like
28:28
for once for once and for all like especially right now as I mentioned since we don't have alternatives so it's more a focus on when you can when it's your personal leisure or your personal
28:39
um like side activities that's where we encourage people to use less developed but
28:45
existing alternatives. Yeah. So let's talk a bit about your motivation because of course you know I
Motivation for Action
28:51
think subhan Allah I mean everyone I speak to in in England I know I know that's not why you did it but everyone I speak to in this industry they cite you and your action as a model uh that they
29:02
aspire to alhamdulillah. So there is a a a ground swell of opinion amongst mus the Muslim community
29:08
amongst young Muslims that we need to be a little bit more stronger when it comes to uh challenging
29:15
these complicit companies. Um uh how how much does Islam your faith play in uh in the decision you
29:26
made but also in in the the continuous or pursuit for justice uh that alhamdulillah seems to be uh
29:35
um really a strong part of your life like what's what's the role of Islam here? Yeah. Uh definitely
29:41
like a fundamental role like I think it's not like secular ethics that drives me to feel like oh no I
29:49
have to do XYZ. It's it's essentially knowing that in Islam it's not it's not like a bonus thing to
29:56
you know fight against oppression to speak up when you're in a complicit environment. It's a full-on obligation, right? And we have multiple examples from from the Quran and and and had about
30:07
how fundamental it is to change evil with your own hands. Um, and so I would say can't I can't
30:14
decouple the two. Like to me, even like losing my job at Microsoft like is not something that oh,
30:21
I did and it's great and it's I I don't want to have this culture of like exceptionalism around it. I think it's just like the the the lowest bar we should have like the bare minimum is yeah
30:31
you worked somewhere that was complicit. You made change essentially. So I think Islam just hammers
30:37
down that it's it's a fundamental aspect of our religion. It's not an optional nice losing your
30:43
job. I mean there will be people who say I'm going to lose my job like if I if I took this down you
Losing a Job
30:49
know I know people who still work with Palanteer you know they're not working in the company but they've got a contract with Palanteer and Palanteer is a very egregious company of course
30:59
um but they would say or or worse still they work with tech companies that are linked very directly
31:05
to the defense industry in Britain or Germany or in in America and again they would argue that
31:11
um there is an obligation to look after their families and and so there's a personal sacrifice
31:19
that may be too hard to bear. Like talk me through that thinking process like if you
31:25
uh came across a Muslim who worked in the defense industry which I think is very problematic like
31:31
how what would you how would you advise them about from an Islamic ethics perspective about
31:37
how they should proceed with with those decisions? Yeah, I think first of all like just to like sort
31:43
of ground all this like to me when we talk about like these sacrifices and like prestigious job or
31:49
uh visa is at risk um like none of this compares even by like 1% to the sacrifices done in like
31:57
made in Gaza by like people are losing their family members losing their lives losing their
32:02
homes to resist occupation. Um and so like just like framing it in this in this context
32:09
of it might seem to people like oh I'm like shattering my life and uh this and that but
32:16
like in in comparison like this is really like a really really really tiny price to pay um to
32:23
like fight against oppression does not compare at all to sacrifices in Gaza. Um the second thing is
32:31
uh and I'll I'll quote like Imm in in one of his videos mentions like gives an example of
32:37
um you know we know how Islam obligates us to have and and have trust that Allahh will not let you
32:44
down but if aliens came down to earth right now and saw the state of Muslims they would not like
32:50
believe that that is something that we're we're commanded to do. So and and if you think about it, it is really true like we have such fear of you know like dunia consequences um without realizing
33:02
that you know if if this job or this risk is not meant for you Allahhana will not let it reach
33:07
you versus if this risk is meant for you it will reach you. Now the question is just is it going to
33:12
be in a halal way or a problematic genocide tied way. Um, so I think to me like it was just like I
33:21
did not have my like current job lined up before getting fired from Microsoft. It came afterwards.
33:27
But just the conviction that okay I yes I I might get fired but Allah subhana wa ta'ala has is the
33:36
one that controls what will happen afterwards. and and just having the intention that you're leaving this defense job or speaking up at this defense job with like the intention of of fighting
33:46
against oppression in in Palestine. Um I think we shouldn't h we shouldn't have as many fears
33:52
as we do about the consequences when when that's present. And what has been the consequences for
Ibtihal’s experience of losing job
33:58
you? Like uh you've left your you've lost your job. Uh you were based in America. You're based
34:04
in the States. Uh no I was you're basically based in Canada, right? So you lost your job. Um has it
34:09
shattered your life, you know, um leaving leaving Microsoft? Like what's what's what's your life
34:15
been like since? No, like alhamdulillah. Um I it's been like quite the opposite. Like truly
34:22
like I saw the embodiment, alhamdulillah, of like the the hadith that no one will leave something for the sake of Allahh except that it will be replaced with better and that so many
34:32
like organizing doors have opened up for me in terms of you know like getting more involved in
34:37
in like the fight for liberation that I did not have access to prior to this viral moment. Like
34:42
that's been that's been a huge uh life change. And honestly like within what was it two weeks
34:48
of getting fired like I started the position at Yakin Institute which to me is like the opposite
34:55
like pro Palestine environment you know doing work for the um um it's somewhere that if you made me
35:01
like build like a 20 year like life plan career plan like maybe I would have put that at like
35:06
year 20 like it's not something I aspired to be able to join and Allahh facilitated it so quickly
35:14
uh and and so smoothly So, um I think and and this is not to say like everyone who gets fired,
35:20
you know, like finds a job within two weeks and whatnot, like the the the consequences and the
35:25
timelines are different, but just knowing that ultimately Allahh has got your back. And for me,
35:31
like it's like half my time now is spent, you know, working with like-minded people that are
35:37
fighting for Palestine, fighting for for the um benefit, and the other half is is direct organizing for to to end the genocide. So, it's been transformative. Alhamdulillah. Wait, wait,
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36:24
show. Tell me about the um the group no Azure for a partite. Explain that to me, please. Yeah. So,
No Azure for Apartheid
36:32
it's a group that started uh a little over a year ago uh by Microsoft workers that um were
36:39
essentially working to end the contracts between Microsoft and Israel. So, these are individuals
36:45
that tried individually um to go through those avenues I mentioned like petitions, questions
36:52
um and that was to no avail. So this group formed to have like a structured group that is directly
36:59
working um to to add pressure on Microsoft to drop these contracts. And since then like it has really
37:06
expanded uh and currently has current workers and former workers. Many people have been fired since
37:12
the beginning of of this year or even since October of last year. Um and so yeah, we just
37:17
organize in different ways to just add pressure on Microsoft in multiple areas for them to realize
37:25
uh not just that it's ethically wrong to maintain these contracts, but also that it is costly like
37:31
you're losing employees. You're getting all your events like embarrassingly disrupted. Uh just
37:37
pulling all the levers to make it more costly for Microsoft to keep this complicity than to just,
37:43
you know, disclose and divest. you're working for Yaken and um I understand I mean I' I've been sort
37:49
of mildly involved in this but I understand that Yaken together with a number of other organizations are are committing themselves to building collaboratives I think they call it the
37:59
GEMS uh summit um do you know anything about that can you tell me more about uh that initiative and
38:06
uh because it seems like it's very much bringing together not just tech people but people from around the world uh in in various sectors I think they've design they've defined and eight sectors
38:16
uh of collaboration. Uh can you tell us a little bit more about gems please? Yeah. Uh so Yakin uh
38:24
like many other organizations including omatics has identified what we were discussing of we
38:30
really like are behind in terms of structures and and institutional support like we're so scattered
38:36
uh that we don't we don't have we're so many Muslims um with so much talent with so many
38:44
resources but we're not putting it all together to build alternative ecosystems to have like our own
38:51
um like our our own talent dedicated to resolving um issues. So, it's essentially like trying to
38:56
bridge this this very um honestly like sad issue that we're two billion Muslims that could have so
39:03
much power but we're not united. So, it's it's all about like unity and and you know bridging different institutions together. And so the idea is to bring uh to coordinate um uh members uh
39:16
experts uh those who are probably at the start of their career to coordinate those energies so that
39:23
we start building alternatives to what western systems that are out there or or complicit systems
39:30
that are out there. I mean that's that's the idea behind gems I would imagine. I understand. Yeah. and not just in tech like overall like having like a yeah a united like OMA framework for I mean how
39:41
important is that because I I've noticed I didn't quite understand this until actually until gems
39:47
but I I've it's become it's dawned on me that probably one of the biggest problems we face is
39:52
that we just don't collaborate as an I think you probably noticed that in in the tech field like
39:58
speak to that please our lack of collaboration this is something that like Zionists do really
40:03
well that we phone is uh there's a clear set of you know target goals that everyone
40:11
um comes together to achieve and everyone is like dedicated to like one aspect of those like
40:16
success goals. uh whereas I feel like for us um I think one big issue is is a lot of I guess sectors
40:25
um that that have Muslims um are still um I guess still have this perception that we have no way out
40:33
of working with western tools of working within western systems um like we've just accepted that
40:41
oh like uh for example like in in in the finance sector like yeah we have to go with like these
40:48
like western like banks and within them try to have like loopholes so that there's like Islamically okay um solutions. So I think a a big problem uh for the lack of collaboration is just
41:01
that everyone is focused on collaborating with these like oppressive non-Muslimowned
41:08
um like organizations and and we we don't see a way out of that which is we can just detach
41:15
ourselves from from yeah all all those complicit works and I suppose what does success look like
Objectives
41:21
you know if um in relation to Microsoft if um if you were able to achieve and meet your objectives
41:30
like what would that look like? Our our first objective is just for Microsoft to just end the
41:36
current contracts with with Israel. Uh and we know that like the pressure is at an all-time high,
41:41
especially because we're talking now in September, just uh less than a month ago, we had like an
41:46
encampment on campus. We had the sit in like and we got word that executives are really
41:53
um for a lack of a better word like panicking about it and trying for the first time uh they
41:59
like the the Microsoft president reached out to the group Palestinians and allies at Microsoft to sit down with them and it's been 2 years or more of them trying to even get that meeting. Um,
42:10
so we know the pressure is at an all-time high and for us we want this to end with uh them just n
42:17
like nullifying those contracts. That's step one. Uh, but then beyond that like Microsoft is still
42:22
invested in Israel in other ways and they have data centers in Israel and offices in Israel. So I
42:28
guess it would I would say it's like tiers but the current urgent priority is just ending all all all
42:35
current contracts. U maybe one final question for you. Um you know today we've talked a lot about
Advice to software engineers
42:43
um the complicity of Microsoft but also I suppose the complicity of Muslims. You know we we sometimes are our worst enemy when it comes to not collaborating and working for
42:52
these companies and not putting our um first. Um, you know, I I suspect there are a lot of Muslims
42:59
who feel uneasy about their jobs and uneasy about how they're not in doing enough for for Palestine,
43:07
doing enough for the UMA, doing enough um when it comes to engaging their talents and expertise for
43:13
the purpose for the sake of this um like what's your advice to a a software developer in Karachi
43:19
or a software developer, you know, in Islamabad or these are Pakistani country, you know, software
43:24
developer Niger area, you know, in Lagos. Um, how should um, like what's your advice to them? How
43:32
should they be thinking? What's your worldview? Maybe that's the best word. Like how should they be thinking about um, not just their own careers, but how should should they be thinking about the
43:43
ummah at uh, at a broader level and and uh, their contribution to this um, I suppose. Yeah. first to
43:51
address something you said which is like a lot of people feel like they're not doing enough. Um like I don't think I'm doing enough. I don't think any of us are are doing enough unless like the
44:01
genocide and apartheid end. But I think instead of letting that um that thought like paralyze us into
44:09
like defeatism and like no matter what we do like this is just how things are in um like I tried to
44:15
channel it more into just pushing myself more like with time um into organizing more into sacrificing
44:21
more like we have to shift from like I've seen in a lot of Muslim circles just a lot of yeah
44:27
what can we do like it's like it it is over it is like an overwhelming um fight, but that leads
44:35
people to just like, you know, throw it all out together versus how can we do even more. I'd say
44:40
like that's a first mindset shift that we need, which is um in one way or another, especially like
44:47
out here in the west, like we are all complicit by virtue of just living here. So, we don't have the option to say, you know, I'm just going to live my career and have my hobbies and someone
44:56
can figure out Palestine. like and even if we were not complicit, even for people in non-complicit
45:02
environments, it is still Islamically an obligation uh to to change this oppression with
45:08
your own hands. So I think we need this mindset shift first of all and then the second thing is
45:15
when Islam uh gave us these commands like fighting against injustice, doing good for the um like our
45:22
our stewardship, our um Allahh did not exclude our jobs from that. It's not like your 9 to5 is like,
45:30
you know, consider that a secular endeavor and then in your free time go to the masjid and
45:35
volunteer and do this and that. Like it ultimately our jobs are a majority of our waking hours uh or
45:41
near majority and so we can't afford for them to just be um detached from our duties towards
45:48
the um your job is several hours which on the day of judgment you will be questioned um you know on
45:55
how you used your time and so that is I I think a second mindset shift that we need globally is
46:01
even for me like growing up in a Muslim majority country um a lot of talks about like careers and
46:06
jobs like it's always like climbing up the ladder, maximizing your salary. It's never how can you
46:12
like switch your position or how can you have side projects to serve the um like that was never a a
46:18
criterion when when choosing career path. So we really need to to have that that mindset shift.
46:25
Um, and then lastly also realizing like people mobilize and organize in different ways. Like
46:31
sure a lot of people will say I can't I I can't afford to you know publicly like confront an
46:37
executive and have my name be doxed and on media. Well, like to that I'll say like Vana and I were
46:44
the like you know public faces for the disruption on April 4th, but behind it were a couple dozen,
46:50
you know, anonymous no for a parttheid organizers that helped with the logistics, the emails,
46:55
the speeches. So you don't have to be, you know, on press to do something for Palestine
47:02
is a misconception I I want to change because a lot of people are like, I'm not in a position to do that. That's fine. you know, behind the scenes, you can still organize with with different groups
47:11
to just center Palestine on on a day-to-day basis. You said something there actually I
Side Hustle for the Ummah
47:17
want to pick up on. Um, there are I mean I see this especially amongst young Muslim males that
47:24
everyone trying to have a side hustle and and that tends to come from I I suspect it comes from being
47:30
indoctrinated by this neoliberal world where you're you're not just satisfied with 9 to5 but
47:36
you need to have something on the side which will give you even more money and even more ability to
47:42
consume. I suppose your point there was I think quite profound. Your point is that you know our worldview should be the side hustle. Of course the the principal job as well has to accord with Islam
47:51
but the side hustle really has to be to serve our ummah. Um I like that. I mean explain that to me
47:58
please. It just stems from the very like simple knowledge that you know we will be questioned
48:05
on like how every hour was spent like during this dunya. And so sure like I could have you know just
48:10
stayed at Microsoft where I worked not even like 40 hours a week and then had a second job and made
48:16
you know became like a millionaire. How is that going to have any value you know after after my
48:22
my death? Like I think we have to break out as you said like I don't want to like fully blame
48:29
this on like us as individuals like there's a lot of media we consume that's pushing especially in
48:35
North America pushing pushing this narrative of like hustle hustle make as much money as possible
48:40
but the the more urgent hustle right now is like Palestine's liberation it's all the ailments in
48:46
the um like I think we we in the same way that I mentioned uh like these mindset shifts It's
48:53
also just having like these like a like tinted glasses of like how is this contributing to my
49:00
afterlife uh versus you know just more material pleasures and more comfort in in the studio.
49:09
Thank you so much for your time accept from you all the effort that you put in. Thank you
49:14
so much for having me. Asalam allayikum. Now, you've reached the end of this show, and the
49:20
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49:32
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