Ep 283. - Epstein, Israel and War with Iran | Curt Mills
In today’s episode, Imam Tom is joined by Curtis Mills for a wide-ranging conversation exploring the alleged connections between Epstein, Israel, and Iran. The discussion also examines regional U.S. politics, the proposed ceasefire in Gaza, and claims surrounding coordinated Israeli propaganda efforts. Keep watching for a thoughtful and in-depth discussion of some of the most pressing and controversial issues shaping the current geopolitical landscape.
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
It's really not about left versus right anymore. It's really about there's this Epstein class over here. He was um
0:08
extraordinary person. I think it's important to level set his strengths, right? Like this wasn't just like an idiot. Uh this wasn't someone without
0:14
charisma. This wasn't someone without intelligence. This wasn't someone without um extreme canny. I think if you
0:20
bet on one party, you'll eventually lose both parties. And I think you're seeing that in real time with the ultra Zionist perspective.
0:25
It is the intelligence angle and the aspect of the the level of involvement with either CIA or the MSAD.
0:31
Invading countries will try to do it through CIA covert ops special forces. When a ceasefire was made in January
0:38
optimistic that there would have been more enforcement mechanisms and that you know broke it in March and there was and
0:44
there wasn't punishment. A lot of the what we do abroad actually ends up coming home. Rabbi in Minnesota recently spoke to
0:51
Christians. He said quote you guys are worshiping one Jew. He's talking about Jesus. That's the mistake because you
0:57
should be worshiping us all. And these things that are are now coming to light, every accusation made against us is like
1:02
a confession on their part. The way we treat foreigners is increasingly the way we we treat Americans sometimes. Absolutely.
1:08
A great deal of the anti-Muslim and anti-Islamic sentiment is actually a coordinated propaganda campaign by
1:14
Israel and its allies UAE in order to justify violence.
1:23
This is Hats Off. Welcome. We have elevated conversations across the aisle. Not debate, not interview, not kumbaya,
1:30
but not gotcha either. We have very special guest today, Kurt Mills, the editor, sorry, executive director of the
1:35
American Conservative. Um, all over the place with the news, uh, contributor to the New York Times. Thanks so much for
1:41
joining us today. Thank you for having me. Yep. So, we recently had your colleague Andrew Day on the podcast and even
1:48
though it's been only a few weeks, a lot has happened. So, I want to give you an option. I've got three cards in my hand
1:54
and you get to choose what we talk about first. One, something that's happened since our conversation with Andrew,
2:00
Epstein files have dropped, even more of them. A lot of juicy information there. Two, we have a deal with Iran on the
2:06
table. Netanyahu is currently coming to the US presumably to to sabotage that
2:13
deal in some way. Uh three, we have Alex Prey was uh was killed by ICE in a very
2:20
very disturbing fashion. Um which would you like to start with? I think Epste.
2:26
Okay, let's go to the Epstein files. What's Let's just open-ended main takeaways from this latest batch that
Unpacking The Epstein Files
2:31
dropped. These were the most uh visceral
2:36
in the sense of uh of putting a like because like this was a human being. Uh
2:42
this is a real guy. I mean I don't think there had been there had been a few depositions but depositions are
2:47
obviously like you're trying not to say anything to get you incarcerated, right? Um there had been very little video of him
2:53
and then you know the even the emails before these were just of a different flavor of
2:58
uh well a obviously the connectiveness but b his he was relaxed. This is this
3:04
is how he this is how he was and uh he was um I mean please don't like aggregate this
3:10
but he was like a extraordinary person just like just highly unusual
3:15
of energy ability activity it's like this guy was everywhere I think it's important to level set like
3:22
um his strengths because um it explains how
3:27
the conspiracy and uh the crimes uh came to be right like this wasn't just like
3:33
an idiot, right? This wasn't someone without charisma. This wasn't someone without intelligence. This wasn't
3:39
someone without um extreme canny. And I think that kind of comes through. Other parts of it are bizarre like his seeming
3:45
inability to like write in the English language in a traditional way. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean also like it is
3:51
that just like a is that itself like a bit to like increase the mystique? He's just too rich and too too busy to even
3:58
to bother. You know, you got to decipher the Morse code I'm sending across or else you can't work with me. that kind of thing.
4:03
And so, yeah, it was it was it was a lot to see that. Um, and it was it was a lot to see his level of connectedness, um,
4:10
long after he had been jailed the first time and, um, you know, uh, you know,
4:15
well into his 60s, I guess. And so, um, yeah, it was it was a lot. Yeah, I see two polls emerging. So I I see in
4:22
the way that it's covered in in the media, one probably the loudest uh poll is that you
4:29
know obviously the sexual crimes and and everything the trafficking that's going on and all of that heinous stuff
4:34
and the second which seems to be somewhat downplayed is the intelligence angle and the aspect of the the level of
4:39
involvement with either CIA or the Mossad or different intelligence agencies.
4:44
Um why do you think that is? Do you think I mean some people are very sensitive obviously as we should all be to cover
4:50
ups um to uh people trying to scapegoat or protect certain assets. Um what's
4:56
your your take on that? What does this mean for the intelligence community and
Media Coverage of The Epstein Files
5:02
how dirty their hands are behind things? I think that the emails themselves um
5:08
it's it's very unlikely that an intelligence asset back then and especially now would put I'm an
5:14
intelligence asset over email of course. Um, and especially because again, like you can barely write that in a sentence.
5:20
Um, and so I don't think it disproves anything. Of course, uh, uh, there's been a ton of reporting uh, before uh,
5:28
the sort of emails that came out um, that have shown his clear ties. I mean, uh, TAC and Drop Site News did a long
5:36
piece about uh, Epstein's ties uh, to likely CIA in the 80s. uh these are just
5:42
not normal things that uh most people are involved in and they're long-standing. I mean uh he was involved
5:47
in this uh by the time uh he was in his 30s. And then additionally what's also
5:53
striking um and I always think this is the key element uh of the whole Epstein story. What is he actually spending uh
6:00
very little amount of time doing it seems? Handling money, investing money, right? I mean this I mean
6:06
he's supposedly the tax guy. He's supposed Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think I mean there was a a fairly strong New York
6:13
Times piece about his career, his rise um from the early days from basically, you know, falsifying his academic
6:19
credentials to uh dating boss's daughters, you know, uh being the sort
6:24
of rising star in the the the whirl of 80s and late '7s New York finance.
6:29
Um, and you know, I'm not saying that he doesn't didn't have any command of the financial markets. He didn't know what
6:34
he was doing. he just wasn't that there's not a serious paper trail of him
6:40
uh being the kind of financial innovator who would who would have billions of dollars. And for me that's always been
6:46
the key story. So like there there's, you know, two main theories. Number one, he didn't have it, but I don't really
6:51
believe it given like the properties that he had. Those are like real things that he had. Not just like nice houses in New York, like the nicest house in
6:59
New York. um not just uh places in uh uh you know the Caribbean, the nicest uh
7:06
island in that uh neck of the woods. And so, you know, I think the fact that he wasn't really doing that day-to-day as
7:12
by evidenced by his emails leaked um I think is extremely telling and begs the question is where was he getting the
7:18
funding? Because he was moving funding to pretty powerful people. I mean, it seemed like if he was if someone was in
7:25
a bind um or if somebody wanted the luxury gift thing is very conspicuous like uh uh the I believe the current
7:32
general counsel uh from Goldman Sachs who was the White House counsel for Barack Obama, Kathy Rumler. We'll see if
7:38
she makes it because of this scandal. I mean, he's like giving her like, you know, luxury goods. I mean, that's an
7:43
unusual I mean, that's that's a I mean, that's a
7:49
almost like of a personal nature. I don't know if they were having an affair or something, but like no idea. Probably not. It just seems like it was a matter of course that he
7:55
was bestowing these types of um of these rewards on his contacts, right? Yeah. And that's something Tucker
8:01
Carlson has drawn attention to, too. It's like if you have some people and their meteoric rise seems to defy our
8:07
expectations of arithmetic and how that should happen, then there usually is something fishy going on behind.
8:13
Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't mean to indicate like fraud, although I mean, n can't rule it out with someone like this, but I mean to indicate that he was
8:20
probably had a slight number of clients and what he was doing for his clients wasn't maybe strictly speaking all financial, that it was
8:27
intelligence uh or Yeah. Recently, I met a viewer who told me something that stopped me in my tracks.
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10:29
Uh, one of the things that's come well you you mentioned some of the people who are caught up in the scandal and that's another obvious angle from everything.
10:36
Everybody is um maybe tongue and cheek saying uh I I was declared safe the
10:41
latest Epstein release. It's like I was marked safe, you know, like I didn't my name didn't
10:46
feel people doing that. I saw I saw someone said that that that no one Joe Biden wasn't in this another vindication
10:52
for right for the 46 president something. So there's something you know humorous but also not
10:58
humorous. Um what well considering the breadth of his context it actually is interesting who
11:03
wasn't in it. That is that is funny you know but then again he's probably not the only operative doing what he's doing even if
11:08
he's maybe the biggest fish in the in the pond or seems like he was pretty good at it. Yes. Yeah. Um, but what does that say
11:15
about I think the way, and this is something I got into with Andrew, the way in which that we're used to
Diving up the Political Pie in the U.S.
11:21
thinking about dividing up the political pie or the political spectrum here in the United States. Like, so some people
11:26
are trying to say, um, it's really not about left versus right anymore. It's really about there's
11:33
this Epstein class over here. They're all involved in very, very ungodly acts
11:39
of all types and illegal acts as well. in addal.
11:44
And then there's the common people that are getting screwed over through inflation, through the affordability
11:50
crisis and all of our money going to Israel and everything else that's going on. What are the potentialities of that? Is
11:57
this something that actually represents a potential shift in American politics? My suspicion and my fear is that we are
12:05
sold and I'm not trying to say that the the flashoint issues in the culture wars are not relevant. They have relevance
12:11
obviously, but my concern is that they're being instrumentalized to
12:17
prevent us from a more deep and structural conversation about what the elites are doing versus what the average
12:23
person left or right uh cares about. What do you think about this? Instrumentaliz implies somebody is in
12:29
instrumentalizing the culture war like getting us, you know, hung up on I'll give it an example. Um, I'm not saying
12:36
that that, you know, abortion rights are not a serious issue or that gun control and I'm, you know, I want to talk about
12:41
2A when we get to to ICE as well. I'm a gun rights advocate, you know, but the
12:47
way in which it's wielded in the culture, there's a suspicion and from me
12:52
and from other folks that these things are fairly downstream to a more serious
12:59
problem upstream, which is that right now society, our society, our government
13:04
is being run by very immoral crooks on both sides of the spectrum, left and right. and that the more that they push
13:11
conversation into these downstream issues, it benefits them because it
13:17
takes the spotlight off of them and all the things that they are are doing. So my one of my interests is how does do
13:25
you what's your take on that analysis first of all. Second of all, is there a way to recalibrate or reorganize
13:31
American political life where maybe within the culture war people or sides that would seem strange bedfellows need
13:38
to get together in a certain way to deal with very deep structural issues that are making this country very very sick.
13:45
Yeah, I'm very torn by the framing. So, I'll say I'll say the I'll say the positive. Um, and number one,
13:50
hypothetically, the the the bifurcation that you propose I think is very positive and would be better than
13:55
partisan warfare. I mean, I think something that strikes me about the promise of the moment, and I think there's been moments of like this in the
14:01
past, is a sort of bipartisan populist revolt uh towards a corrupt elite. These
14:07
are things that I support. These are things that I think would make the country better. I think the I think uh in a lot of ways our discourse is far
14:13
healthier than it was say 6 years ago when seemingly uh it was uh a weaponized
14:19
culture war uh co woke uh all of those uh topics. um and who
14:25
was who was benefiting. I mean I mean I don't want to debate BLM etc etc but it's pretty obvious uh you know when JP
14:32
Morgan and Goldman Sachs and you know Silicon Valley are all supporting something uh that they're not that
14:38
worried about Americans having it out um over cultural issues right in fact they kind of want that so they don't have
14:45
geopolitics or economics everybody had rainbow flags Coca-Cola and everybody had now where'd they go
14:51
exactly you know absolutely no and nothing really changed right I mean yeah so or got worse in some ways and
14:56
So, um I think that's I think that is um an improvement and I think um my only
15:01
hesitancy uh to the framing is I do think the Epstein uh story shows the
15:07
other end of the world which is that in some ways nobody's in charge. Right. And I think I think this is a disturbing
15:13
answer that people kind of don't like to hear because the problem with conspiracy theories is implies this hypercompetent
15:18
elite. Sure. And I think in some ways you see the incompetence of the elite in the emails. Yes. Uh and and you also see
15:24
that they kind of don't know each other. Thus the uh thus the importance of a of a social broker uh uh like Epstein. I
15:33
mean there's this I mean it's occasionally memeified, but there's the the old George Carlin joke that it's a
15:38
it's all a big club and you're not in it. I think is false. I think that that that that's actually not my experience
15:44
uh knowing some of these people reporting on them. Um they're often quite apprehensive and suspicious of each other. They're very paranoid and I
15:51
think uh Epstein and he abused this opportunity but he also leveraged it uh created a safe space uh for uh financial
16:00
uh transactions for lensiousness um uh for an almost body uh humor uh and
16:08
ultimate darkness ultimately darkness but I but I think uh Epste himself is is shows that there is a space for
16:14
entrepreneurs within the elite to do this type of thing that's fascin Um yeah, I think put it I I would just
16:20
hesitate uh you know you you you don't want uh the populist energy to be
16:25
co-opted uh you know in for the energy of a mob. Yes. That uh merely uh replaces certain
16:32
members of a corrupt elite and replaces it with something even worse. Absolutely. No, that's that's a very very uh valid perspective and I want to
16:38
pick on that a little bit and and try to push it even further. So um yeah, that's interesting. I haven't heard too many
16:44
people give that take, but it does ring true. uh the incompetence especially as I think more and more people are paying
16:50
attention. So the first question that comes to my mind to what do we attribute that vacuum if uh let's say that our our
16:57
level of civics Andrew and I got into a conversation about civics and what civics in America should look like especially with immigration and whatnot.
17:04
Um, if we assume that civic participation is at an all-time low, which perhaps it is, um, something is
17:11
something is responsible for a vacuum in which the Epsteines of the world crawled in and whatever.
17:17
What should displace that vacuum? Um, what should exist and do people need to
17:23
take a more proactive role, average citizens, in order to make
17:30
sure that that vacuum doesn't exist in the first place? Do things like our entertainment culture and being
17:36
entertained to death and do these take away from uh the ability for the average citizen to actually participate, we're
17:42
talking affordability crisis as well. What are all the factors that are involved in preventing something that
17:48
would displace that void that then is filled by by an Epstein type? I I think
17:55
that I I'm not sure we're in a civic recession by the traditional definitions because I think voting is higher than it
18:01
was 20 years ago and I think and I think people are paying attention to politics more than they were 20 years ago. Yeah.
18:07
Somewhat uh negatively unfortunately because it's just dividing us. Um on the other hand uh there is a sense and I
18:14
think you see this and I I I'm very hesitant to use this language because we don't often understand these societies
18:20
and we're not so different in a lot of ways ourselves but there is this tendency um I think in the US
18:26
increasingly and as exemplified by the Epstein files where there's a sense that
18:31
major decisionm in the US is privatized uh that it's not democratized that and
18:38
that uh it's actually just the opinions of a very select few group of people that move money, make policies, um,
18:45
etc., etc. So, like on the one hand, uh, Donald Trump, uh, you know, it's really
18:51
hard to say for someone so connected and for someone who was born into and made
18:56
such spectacular wealth. Um, I mean, odd career, but I mean, he definitely made a lot of money. Um,
19:02
it's he obviously, I think, before became president though, was somewhat outside of the elite, right? He was he
19:08
was hated by them. he was he was a he was either kicked out or an outcast or betrayed them or some combination
19:13
thereof and that's how he sort of um exploited the populist energy and and has been the defining political story of
19:20
the century in a lot of ways. Um but there's also a sense with him uh that the policies haven't really changed uh
19:27
were not changed enough or not changed as much as he uh portended or his rise portended. Um, and
19:33
I think uh with that is like actually a civic uh uh recession because I think people aren't actually paying attention
19:40
to the details of what's going on in Washington DC. And I'm very torn on that because on the one hand I think you know
19:45
I'm someone who's from here. I think you know a lot of people who who are from here or live here now don't aren't
19:51
actually from here originally. It's a very strange town in that way. Um and I think they they really don't get the rest of the country. Um on the other
19:58
hand, Americans are allowing this uh dynamic uh to continue and at the end of
20:03
the day who's more and give. So that's and this is a very uh exploratory question. Um so what's the
20:08
way out of that? Like is it about refining a sense of politics and
20:13
understanding of politics again it comes back to maybe like redefining civics like how how does policy work? like most
20:19
people their sense of political participation is watching the news, voting, caring about like one or two
20:25
particular like pet issues that really matter to them. Um has that configuration just does it not work
20:32
anymore? Do we need a different configuration? My answer is simultaneously uh cynical and optimistic. I think a lot of this stuff
20:39
is actually uh geranttocratic and uh the very slow turnover in power, money,
20:48
fame. um that is sort of unprecedented in human history that's going on right
20:53
now for a ver and and some of it's you know look I I want people to live as long as they can or as long as they want
20:59
to um all these sorts of things but it is it is um putting in amber a
21:05
generation the baby boomers uh that uh you know I don't think it was by design but it was by happen stance that they
21:11
they've really had like a 50-year run. Yeah. And uh and that's not healthy. And I think when
21:18
uh that changes, I think a lot of these problems actually will be solved. And and what there's a lot of stories on
21:23
Epstein. Um but like the the the big story I feel like is uh a baby boomer
Is is time for Post Boomer Politics
21:29
elite and a very baby boomer story sort of, you know, workingass uh New York background, made a ton of money in
21:36
finance, had a number of connections, uh American dream in a lot of ways. Um but
21:41
then you see with him also the dark side of the American dream. And uh I think that's why it's a fascinating story.
21:47
That is very interesting. Um so I there's lots of other things to talk about. I don't want to beat a dead horse
21:53
here, but what if you could give us one characteristic that would differentiate
21:59
or distinguish a postmer politics? Like what what are some of the you say that you you anticipate or let's say hope we
22:06
can hope that some of the issues get resolved. Uh what's the difference between a Gen X or a millennial or a Gen
22:11
Z? super typ I think the the impulse towards militarism is going away and I
22:17
think and I think this is a big deal and uh and I know a lot of people don't want to talk about foreign policy don't pay attention to it but I think our
22:23
posture um you know towards the rest of the world uh is a big deal uh for for uh
22:29
the reputations of people who travel abroad for our image abroad for and for our self-image and I think a lot of the
22:35
what we do abroad actually ends up coming home I mean uh you know the way we treat foreigners is increasingly the
22:42
we we treat Americans sometimes and I think that's that's a negative tendency and I think if that's I think if that
22:48
impulse if that instinct is at least dulled uh and improved upon I think that's a major change and then
22:53
additionally just the reality of governing the United States uh you know a lot of people can talk about game if
22:59
if if a uh you know if a governor becomes the next president you know someone like uh Nome or whatever you
23:06
know they they can say they want to do all these different things but the reality is the United States is really hard to govern domestically uh its
23:11
problems are are really entrenched. Uh the uh uh you know, ask Barack Obama. I
23:17
mean, he basically put through a mediocre healthcare plan and it took most of his political capital to do so.
23:22
And in a lot of ways, it hasn't solved the problem. I think most people would concede. uh you know it's it's sure a hell lot
23:28
easier to just focus on foreign affairs because the president has imperial uh cartplunch and more or less and uh I
23:36
think in within that system if there's a commander-in-chief that wanted to uh
23:42
that had more realistic appraisal of what the US can and cannot do abroad um and is more uh focused on the medium to
23:49
long term uh like I think our rivals the Chinese are uh I think we we would see
23:55
um improvements and I do think it is really just a baby boomer thing to do this militarism and I and I think it's
24:00
it's very tied into you know I mean it's just I mean in a lot of ways people's political uh not all people but I think
24:07
most people's political senses are are kind of um made in their teens 20s and
24:12
30s and that their story was you know what like Carteresque weakness uh Reagan
24:17
comes in the Soviet Union dissolves kumbaya never mind like you know the debt that we started attacking on the
24:25
the the financialization that we started using in the 80s. Uh never mind what it actually is like to live in Eastern
24:30
Europe today and in some ways is worse than it was before the fall of the Berlin wall. Um but there's this mind that uh that force and uh a muscular uh
24:39
foreign policy uh solves all these problems and and it's very embedded I think in the people whose politics were
24:46
um uh marinated in the 80s. Yeah, that's fascinating. Now, I'm not
24:51
used to hearing the intergenerational angle and uh that I can go all day on that. Unfortunately, there's limits to any any any lens,
24:57
of course, but it's an it's an important additional lens. Uh and since you've opened up, I think the door to segue to
25:03
foreign policy. Uh let's talk about Iran. Yeah. Uh so, what's at stake here? What's
25:08
what's real and what's fake? What's uh what's going on? It seems like there's a potential deal on the horizon.
25:14
Netanyahu, we're shooting this on a Monday, 2 days from now. Netanyahu is supposed to come to town presumably to
25:20
try to sabotage a deal just cuz as a very long-standing politician that it's kind of like his pattern of behavior. We
25:26
know him and it's it's it's cartoonishly brazen. Yeah. Yeah. And he is cartoonishly brazen and so yeah, he's one thing he is
25:34
is predictable. Um and that's what we expect. So, I know um I believe some other folks from the American Conserv
25:40
talking about the Iran test and how this puts Trump in a situation where he basically is going to have to make a
25:46
choice where it's going to be US interests or Israeli interests and um do
25:53
you have predictions what's what is at stake here? Well, I have been uh I have
25:59
probably been a little more optimistic on this than
26:05
the felt sense. Uh the felt sense, I think, has been, you know, really since
Netanyahu in town - Predictions on Iran
26:11
the Maduro raid. Um really since the Iran protests, uh that Trump was going to hit them
26:17
again. It hit them pretty hard and that the Iranians were going to respond with all of their force this time and it
26:23
could get really, really bad. Um I have been a little I think it's very useful
26:31
to to to make that the level set base case scenario at this point considering what happened last June the failures of
26:36
the previous negotiations. I think it is extremely incumbent on people who who advocate realism and restraint here um
26:44
to not get their hopes up too much. Uh that said this has been a strange process. uh Trump uh has been I mean
26:53
Trump set a red line uh you know you know any protesters killed well I think whatever you think of the numbers
26:59
I think some of the numbers coming out of that country are pretty funny uh but like let's say it's above zero that were killed in the Iran
27:04
he has a very interesting line to draw yeah I think above zero were killed in the violence and and the Iranian state I
27:10
think conceds that 3 to 4,000 people were killed and I'm sure they would say that these people are terrorists etc
27:16
let's not get into it so people were killed in theory the red line was was breached. Not much noise on that.
27:22
Although if we do strike, I do think we will see like well that proves Trump is not all like Obama, you know, for not
27:27
even cross red line. But uh there's been assets moving into the region for a while. Uh there was a huge
27:33
felt sense I think a weekend or two ago that they're going to strike. They didn't do it. Uh new negotiations uh
27:39
opened. Uh a lot more players are involved this time. I mean the Russians have been making noise. The Turks have
27:44
been making noise. The Qataris have been making have been making noise. The Saudis have been making noise, although slightly mixed signals uh out of Saudi
27:51
Arabia, although I think that might be weaponized by the Israeli frankly, but uh I I think there is promise that there
27:59
could be an 11th hour deal. Um and there is uh there are inklings
28:05
that Trump really doesn't really want to do this. And I I think, you know, I mean,
28:10
the man ordered uh the strikes on Iran in June and uh I think that was a
28:15
mistake. And you know, I don't think he should get unending sympathy. Uh but I
28:20
think this is still base case someone who doesn't really believe in an Iran
28:26
war and is surrounded by people and again he's grown man. He's president of
28:31
the United States. He made these choices. He's surrounded by people who who do want it for a variety of reasons.
28:37
And it is a story of are they going to overpower him and his instincts or will his
28:44
instincts override it? And that is still fundamentally distinct and maybe a distinction about a difference than an
28:51
ideological neoonservative like you know I I I'm still more comfortable with Trump being the president than say
28:58
Rubio. Sure. Or George W. Bush. Absolutely. Or Mike Pompeo or John Bolton. This is
29:03
this is someone who's like ah maybe we shouldn't do it and he's got a bunch of I think fanatics surrounding him who
29:08
want him to do it. Um and it is different. And so I look the if for for
29:14
Trump's actual stated goals, which are no nuclear weapon and the vanity, uh the
29:20
prestige of getting a better deal than Obama, he's got it. And he's had it since last spring. The Iranians opening
29:26
bid was a lower enrichment level uh than JCPOA. Uh I think they're talking about even
29:32
lower than they were talked about last spring. Uh they're talking about all types of of of things. is not going to
29:38
be I don't think you know the full zero enrichment uh you know complete geling
29:44
of the regime I mean I mean like the what the Israelis are are are putting forward what the neoconservatives are putting forward is if ham uh just you
29:53
know dismantles the regime himself basically ask wave the white flag if he gives everything that we want
29:58
without us doing a war then fine we accept that and then obviously his people will eat him yes like which would
30:03
be true of any government right if the US disan dismantles its military then we can have a deal with the US. That's the
30:08
ask. Um, but I think a fair deal that achieves number one uh avoiding a war
30:15
and number two uh preventing the Iranians from getting a nuclear weapon is on the table. And you know the
30:20
nuclear issue itself I think is obviously historically a stalking horse uh and a invention for pretext towards
30:27
military options. The Iranians I mean say what you will uh are not as committed to getting a nuclear weapon. I
30:33
mean of course I mean Jame has a fatwa against nuclear weapons. I mean this is not Kim Jong-un Kim Jong-un did not or
30:39
Kim Jong- and his the Kim family did not have a fuel against nuclear weapons this
30:44
government does we do not want to put a scenario where the only options are the Iranians lunch for a crude weapon
30:52
uh or uh war. Yeah. No, that's fair. And I think you know it's interesting that you you put it in those terms with um
30:58
Trump's instincts versus the influences around him. And I mentioned briefly, you know, before we we started rolling uh
31:05
our involvement here in the Punish Democrat campaign in 2024. And that was precisely our argument, you know, uh to
31:11
the Muslim community is that we don't pretend to um you know agree with many
31:17
of of the policies and attitudes and rhetoric, but under Biden and under
31:22
Harris, we have 100% certainty of fullthroated support of the Israeli
31:29
genocide in Gaza. And with Trump, we have maybe like 99.5% or 99% or whatever
31:36
percent a little better than that at that point. I mean I mean it has I mean in defense of the administration it has been
31:42
I believe less lethal under Trump the Israel thing. Granted the other argument is that you know they did most of the
31:47
killing that they could could do in the Biden years. I think I think folks within the community hoped that when uh
31:53
when a ceasefire was made in January optimistic that there would have been more enforcement mechanisms and that you
Biden, Harris and Trumps Policies on Israel
31:59
know they always broke it in March as they always have and there wasn't and there wasn't punishment. Exactly. Because we know how again like
32:05
Israel is a very predictable actor like they they they break their agreements they they do these things. They're
32:10
constantly pushing the envelope um to get the maximum that they can always get in every single deal. they will I mean
32:16
they attempted to assassinate you know members of Hamas when they were coming to sign a deal that they didn't like
32:22
right so that's just how they operate um so no I mean we but but but I agree with
32:28
that I agree with that that there's that's the whatever percentage number that is that
32:33
was the that was the bet that was the hope that we at least have that because um the alternative is is just absolutely
32:40
scary so then that's really interesting so one of the things so there's There's
32:46
two directions to take this. So, one of the things and you know I I'm I'm still I'm still percolating on on the
32:52
intergenerational lens which is really useful because what one of my observations historically
32:57
is that things continue to spiral back not quite circle but spiral back but they they
33:03
they're not as effective every time that they happen. Right? So, we see 9/11 happens and all of the hysteria and now
33:08
we're, you know, we're invading Iraq and, you know, 25 years on, people are looking back on that saying, "Wow, what
33:14
a terrible mistake that was." Um, it seems like that generation almost
33:19
expects to be able to get the band back together again and and do the same stuff. Whereas, people have become weary, people have become smarter, you
33:25
know, the world is more connected. Um, people aren't buying it uh as much.
33:30
That's at least my observation. Agreed. Although in some ways it's it can be darker because uh as you
33:36
mentioned the sort of civic recession that you're talking about it's like they're trying to do a war with Iran right now which in some ways is a bigger
33:41
enterprise than a war with Iraq. Um it's a bigger country. Uh and uh it seems
33:47
like they're pretty close even though even though there's no cause of belly uh even though no one wants it.
33:52
Yeah. And or or a minority of a faction wants it. And so they're they're getting close to it even without any of this stuff.
33:58
And that was part of the experience, you know, um, as someone who's politicized by 9/11 and and even as a teenager
34:05
opposed the Iraq war and then, you know, seeing all the energy that was put into it. And again, this is why at least for
34:10
me, I come back to like what's the sophistication of our understanding of physics because how many hundreds of
34:15
thousands or millions of people took to the street, but that's not necessarily going to get you a policy change, right? Like we have yet to become sophisticated
34:23
enough to actually put the sequencing of actions that are actually going to obtain what we want. I I will say in
34:28
defense of the 2000's moment, I think there was there was a real chance that was that was um I think it was somehat
34:35
it was squandered by Obama, I really have to say. So like I mean if you if you examine the the sort of ' 06
34:42
uh to let's say like
34:48
2012 early 20 2010 sort of experience. Uh
34:54
Obama clearly I I don't think he wins the primary without having had opposed the Iraq war.
35:00
Yeah. Um and then additionally, I mean it's forgotten, but it's something the magazine has a history of being involved
35:05
with. Um you know, the Ron Paul movement, which became the Sons movement, Rand Paul, uh in the
35:11
Republican party. I mean, there all the energy was actually on the anti-war thing. Yeah. And you know, I think in
35:17
some ways it's more obvious in retrospect, but the the the lesson uh that the Democrats, I think, took um was
35:25
well, Iraq was the bad war. Afghanistan was the good war, right? So Obama expanded in Afghanistan. Um I think I've
35:33
heard mixed things on this. I've heard that he himself, someone who would know, didn't really believe in it, but kind of felt like he had to. Um Biden per some
35:40
of the reporting back then actually threatened to resign as vice president which is extraordinary over the surge. Um but in any in any case by by 2012 you
35:49
know the nominee on the Republican side was was Romney and uh Obama had kind of kept um a lot
35:56
of the more sophisticated elements of the military
36:02
machine um and discarded the ones that were politically risky. So instead of
36:07
mass occupations of most countries with the exception Afghan of Afghanistan, uh we'll use drones. Yeah.
36:13
Invading countries, we'll try to do it through CIA, covert ops, special forces. And we see this today. I think I think I
36:19
think that the the the hawks and the neocons, you know, know and they in fact they they insist with pride um in
36:26
arguments against people like, you know, our magazine uh that this isn't the 2000s. Why is this not the 2000s? Oh,
36:31
because we're using special ops. Oh, because we're not doing uh um uh
36:37
occupations. And uh you know, I just think it's a distinction about a difference. Yeah. Yeah. And for the record, I mean,
36:42
I think collectively the the Muslim American community, um looks back and
36:47
realizes how bleak the bipartisan consensus has been when it comes to our community. We have no illusions. At the
36:54
time, we were very deluded, I think, by the Obama years. But in retrospect, I mean, he's the one who brought us CVE,
37:00
you know, the the countering violent extremism programs and the the spying, and he's the the one who assassinated
37:07
American citizens abroad with with drones. And so, um, and so there's this
37:12
kind of resurgent or maybe emerging is a better word, uh, political consciousness
37:18
that drove the Muslim community to, I think, a crisis in 2024 is like we are between a rock and a hard place here. Um
37:25
whereas the post 911 logic uh with the type of rhetoric coming out of the
37:30
neocons was it drove a lot of people to the left I think understandably but um
37:36
that honeymoon is is long over and so we kind of faced down that that prospect uh
37:42
in the 2024 election. So now it's looking at where do we go? Um and the primaries are
37:49
are going to be really really interesting test case to see. We've got a lot more people working on both sides of the aisle. Both parties, it's going
37:55
to be Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Um, and for us, keeping uh keeping Palestine and Israel
38:01
in the news and and making the elections about them are very very important to that continuity of those lessons. Um,
38:09
one of the things that comes up with Iran and war with Iran on the table and and Netanyahu coming and the things that
38:16
we imagine that Netanyahu is going to say, the same things he said since the '9s about, you know, they're this many
38:21
weeks away and we're the cutting edge. We're defending Western civilization against Islamist terrorism. Um, all of
38:27
these things I want to double back real quick to the Epstein files. some of the some of the
38:32
things that that we saw in the Epstein files, the ways in which Zionists talk about
38:39
non-Zionists go this and going we're supposed to rule over. And there was not sure if you saw this, but there was a um
38:46
rabbi in Minnesota um recently spoke to Christians. He said, quote, "You guys
38:52
are worshiping one Jew." He's talking about Jesus. uh that's the mistake because you should be worshiping us all
38:58
and these things that are that are now coming to light and for us in the Muslim
39:04
community we have this sense there's been this phrase that's come about in the last two years after October 7th where every accusation made against us
39:11
is like a confession on their part so when he has a a tattoo of Cather right
39:17
uh and this is supposed to mean within the imaginary of western civilization this sort of the crusader tattoo
39:23
yeah crusader tattoo with some sort civilizational conflict between Christianity and Islam.
39:30
Um, where's the Goyam tattoo? That's the question that we like where
39:35
is that energy for that type of because in our closed circles when we talk about
39:40
even if we talk about a non-Muslim or a Cath this we're not talking about we're going to enslave everybody and they
39:45
should be worshiping us. we're not having but that's what we're accused of and that's what provides the the Iran
39:51
and the Iran connection is that that's what provides the um the legitimizing discourse or the excuse the pretext
39:58
for a lot of this military uh intervention no I mean I think Iran and the sort of I mean
Is Every Accusation is a Confession?
40:05
cons even though it's it's comical for anyone who knows any details of the region but I think Iran in the in the
40:10
conception for for too many Americans is you know basically the the the final
40:16
boss of radical Islam, right? And uh uh yeah, and I I think that's how they are
40:22
able to marshall the support that they are in in the public. So the question is how much of
40:28
anti-muslim or anti-Islamic sentiment and I purposely avoid the term Islamophobia because I don't I don't
40:33
like the term. I don't think it's um I don't think it was well thought through on our part. First of all, because it
40:38
copies homophobia and I I disagree with with that framing. And second, because uh it it doesn't do the exact work that
40:46
we're looking at doing. It's not a phobia. We're not afraid or we're not trying to criticize people who don't
40:51
like us. Yeah. Right. But what the concern is is that
40:57
a great deal of the anti-Muslim and anti-Islamic sentiment is actually a coordinated propaganda campaign by
41:03
Israel and its allies UAE in order to justify violence. So the question is
41:10
like how much is uh Israel and these other forces behind that? How much of
41:16
this is just complete propaganda? And what do you think is and should be the
41:22
role of Muslims in the United States politically at all these I know it's kind of a curveball question but
41:29
all of what we've been through as a community and being the scapegoat and being the bad guy uh and how and being
41:36
the number one sort of public enemy that serves as this endless justification for forever wars and and whatnot. Um we're
41:44
we're we seem to me on a precipice. It seems to me that we're almost at an era that is post that and people are waking
41:51
up to. So some people have talked about team God, unity of the monotheistic faiths
41:57
and practitioners. Like what do you see as a role for Muslims to play either on
42:02
the left, on the right in American political culture, period? Yeah. Well, look, I I would I would say
42:08
for uh any interest group, uh it is always a mistake uh to bet on one party.
42:14
Yeah. And I and I think in in some ways you're seeing uh uh the Israel lobby actually uh experience this in real time
42:22
and not just because uh it's not hedging your bets. I think if you bet on one party, you'll eventually lose both parties. And I think you're seeing that
42:27
in real time um with the ultra Zionist perspective in America. And I think I think it's been a it's it's been a
42:34
levered up way for Netanyahu uh to get a lot of policy gains very quickly. And it
42:40
may work for Netanyahu's political career, but I'm not sure it's going to work well for Israel in the long run. Yeah. Um, so that would be um council
42:47
number one uh to the American Muslim community um or or everybody. I I think
42:52
when I think when Muslims were were basically monolithically democratic,
42:57
they were assumed they have nowhere else to go. Yeah. And uh I think that was a major mistake
43:04
of of the Biden and then Harris campaigns. Um and they paid for it in 2024. I think it was decisive
43:10
and it was our job to make them pay for it because what we saw as the alternative was that they would continue
43:16
to take us for granted we would just be a dormat and so you
43:21
know as difficult as it was and knowing what we were going to face and knowing you know potential u backlash or
43:26
whatever he said well it's either complete political irrelevance and disempowerment or proving that if we
43:33
actually are able to um draw red lines because that was the thing that was coming back and there's actually I think in future episodes we're going to have
43:39
some of these Democratic Party operatives that have infiltrated the Muslim American community quite deeply
43:45
uh for the last 20 25 years, some of which have been collaborators with CVE
43:50
programs and FBI enttrapment programs and and whatnot. The question we kept on asking them was just tell me the point
43:58
at which you're going to walk away from the Democratic party. I just want to know like what has to happen in which
44:04
you would not suggest or dictate that the the community go that way. And the
44:10
people who were either through grant money or
44:15
interests or careers that were aligned with the Democratic party, they never had an answer. They never had an answer. And so the the very clear takeaway is,
44:21
okay, well, with all due respect, you don't have the community's interest in mind. You have your own either personal
44:26
interest or you have your group's interest, but it's not in the community's interest to be married uh to
44:33
any one particular ship or let alone a sinking ship that doesn't go into as Malcolm X said, he said, you put them
44:38
first and they put you last, right? And that's the situation that we we found ourselves in. Um any other I mean I feel like um one
44:46
of the things Okay, so this is another sort of curveball. It was a conversation I got into with Andrew um about foreign
44:52
policy in particular because one of the things that alarms me as a person of faith and thinking about the role I do
44:58
believe that um there is a lot of potential for common cause in America
45:03
between Muslims and Christians and Jews, people of faith especially in a time where we see immorality
45:10
uh at an alarming level. If you want to take some cultural stuff about you know the proliferation of sports betting,
45:15
sports betting is everywhere now. betting is gambling has become so normalized um that a lot of people are
45:23
right to suspect whether we can trust whether the sports that they're watching are not all fixed and and scandals keep
45:28
on coming. um the proliferation of pornography, the prol of these things that have come about that I think people
45:35
of faith across all communities uh oppose that there is potential there's
45:44
potential for I think common cause or for collaboration uh along these lines
45:49
that that needs to be explored. But the difficulty is that as long as these things remain in place so there's one
45:56
thing as long as the Muslims are the boogeyman. Okay, that's an obstacle to this sort of thing happening. The second
46:02
is that I'm concerned that there's that the the assumption of realism within politics that we talk about and even
46:08
foreign policy, we talk a lot about scenarios, talk a lot about power, talk
46:14
about interests, but I don't hear anyone talking about God. And I don't mean in a
46:19
Bush Jr. type of way where, you know, we're the Crusaders and we're going to go in, you know, with cowboy boots and
46:24
just shoot everybody. But actually, where is morality in foreign policy? Where does the moral calculus come from?
46:31
I'm very concerned that we've become so secularized in how we talk about
46:36
politics and foreign policy that it's almost like a language that we've lost.
46:42
Would God approve of what we're doing? Like, that's like a fundamental question to me that I think people of all faith have to ask themselves. Would God
46:49
approve of what America is doing at a foreign policy level? What do you think is the role of faith and the role of God
46:57
when in foreign policy, in domestic policy, in in politics? I think there's a lot of negative
Secularisation of Politics
47:02
examples of it being weaponized. Yes. So, my my default is uh that the
47:10
founders were actually pretty smart and that uh religious freedom for all uh I mean, it's Thomas Jefferson put it on
47:17
his grave. Yeah. Right. And I think uh you know, as one
47:23
of our co-ounders said, Jefferson's the greatest American. And uh Washington's greatest president, Jefferson's the greatest American. And I I think that
47:31
should be a pretty pretty high bar because I think uh uh the chances of it
47:36
weaponization are potentially greater than its chances of um intelligent
47:44
uh synthesis put into policy. That all being said, um I do think uh America
47:52
obviously has this enormous Christian heritage and inheritance and uh very
47:59
plainly our foreign policy and the way we talk about it is pretty uncristian.
48:04
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And uh I think that is worth u
48:09
observing and um being called out for. Yeah. No, that's that's fair. And I
48:15
think the only, you know, the I I take the first uh point seriously. Um there's
48:20
an argument to be said that, you know, there's no such thing as no philosophy. It's either good philosophy or bad
48:25
philosophy. And I I think that that also rings true for moral concerns and even even religion. So I agree that there has to
48:33
be obviously and this country is founded, you could say, on on attempting to establish those guardrails as to to
48:40
what can enter and what can't enter and how does it not become supremacist. I think they were pretty smart guys. I I
48:45
it's it's it's boring. It's not voggish. Uh I but I think the I think the
48:51
template put by the founders and you know uh boring bog standard observation
48:56
famously Jefferson known to Quran um you know Washington's letter to the Hebong congregation. I think that that's all
49:02
very smart stuff and should be remembered and you know most countries don't have that inheritance and we do and um this is this is why I think it's
49:10
curious if I may answer question that you raised before we can get to um the sort of imported fake artificial um
49:19
alleged conflicts that we have to be involved in that actually have that are basically very ahistoric the crusader
49:25
stuff I mean this country was founded by people fleeing the insane Christian religious wars in Europe Right. Uh this
49:32
the people in the 18th and 19th century weren't thinking about classes of civilizations with Islam. They probably
49:38
weren't thinking about Islam at all. Probably not. Right. And uh you know the idea that there that there's this massive grudge match that
49:45
uh the US needs to settle with the Arab or the Muslim world um the Arab and Muslim worlds uh I think
49:51
is is totally artificial. And I know you wanted to talk about uh you know the ICE thing and uh we may not agree on
49:58
everything on it but it's something that is I I think you know pretty fascinating um and I observed it um I observed it uh
50:05
on another podcast um is look I mean the country obviously has an illegal immigration problem uh no one really
50:12
knows but estimates range from 10 15 to 40 million illegal immigrants in this
50:17
country. uh why all the emphasis on Somalians in Minnesota,
50:24
right? Uh and what percentage of uh uh illegal immigrants in the United States are
50:30
Muslim? I'm going to guess very very small, right? Um our immigration issues actually
50:35
aren't the same as Europe's. Yeah. Our uh cultural issues are different than Europe's. Um and the idea is to make it
50:42
um some sort of uh artificial one civilization the west from San Francisco
50:48
to Jerusalem. I mean a would have been very curious to people dying in European wars uh be told that they were part of
50:54
one civilization b curious to the founders who had fled Europe uh or the families had fled Europe. Uh but C it's
51:01
just it's just fake. It's false. Yeah. No most pe people writing history they're actually writing about the present but they're using the past to
51:07
forge it. Um I actually had co-authored an Islamic history book this past year. Um that's actually one of the things we
51:14
go into many of the you know people like um you know Edward Gibb and these these
51:19
historians that were kind of the high watermark of the civilizational recasting of the west versus Islam. Um
51:26
there's a lot of interesting things that are left out. you know, um, the Ottoman Empire had very interesting relationships with the queen of of
51:32
England and the German Protestant states and they were actually, it's really funny because Vienna, right, is supposed
51:40
to be, you know, the the last advance of the Ottomans and where Christian Europe fended them off. But the Ottomans were
51:47
actually invited to intervene by Protestants in Eastern Europe that were afraid that if the Habsburgs took over
51:52
that it would be no more religious tolerance, which is what I wanted to say about the interesting thing. And I do take your point very well about you know
51:59
the way in which this country is set up and and the inheritance of it ideologically and trying to create space
52:05
for uh for different faiths. U you know the first amendment is is the cornerstone of the constitution and um
52:12
we live in a time where we see the importance of that the essential nature of the first amendment and also the
52:18
first amendment under attack for sure. Um, but also it's not I wouldn't say it's an exclusive heritage
52:25
of the US though there's particularities to the US that if you go before and there's another interesting part of the
52:30
conversation I have with Andrew um where I don't pretend to defend uh the nation
52:36
states that are across the Muslim world today but pre-modernity
52:41
when you go back to let's say the Ottoman millet system and different there were other ways of ordering
52:46
society that did extend um dignity and and for sure that's why I'm not a neocon. I
52:53
don't I think I think I think two things are going to be true once. Uh you can be pro America and I
52:58
think it's uh a a good project on balance. Uh and also think that uh we should not
53:05
try to be export our way of life at the point of the gun. Right. Yeah. And so I'm I'm actually
53:11
interested in mutual learning that can happen because that you almost have two different models. Agreed. that have uh
53:17
achieved something similar right when it comes to how do you because the open-ended question I think for all
53:23
thinkers open-ended questions are more uh productive than yes or no questions or either or questions so if the
53:30
open-ended question is how do you manage multiple faith commitments in a society and keep that society cohesive then
53:37
anybody who's serious about that question would want to look at different models and see the pros and cons and see maybe oh we set it up this way and it
53:44
worked as intended up until this point, but now we're dealing with this dilemma. How do we continue to uh to protect that
53:52
that overall ethic? And that's also why again it's like, you know, some people could say, well, one of the my favorite
53:58
comments on videos I do is, well, why don't you go to the Muslim world is I'm I'm American. I am a Muslim, but I'm
54:04
American. This is this is my home. I don't know any other home. And there are things about this is society that I
54:10
cherish. and the the balance that we at least attempt to strike on uh supporting
54:17
the practice of multiple faiths is is one of them, right? In addition to free speech and you know they would lock me up if I lived in the Middle East for a
54:23
week because I can't can't shut my mouth. I just if I see something that I think is wrong I have to talk about it.
54:30
Um we did say okay so we we segueed on to ICE and that was I think the the last major thing that we want to talk about.
54:36
It was interesting. So here's my observations. You know, when the when the first shooting uh Renee Good
54:43
happened, there was a lot of contention around it because of the vehicle and which way was the vehicle going and
54:48
there's, you know, like split second decisions have to be made. Um the second
54:53
shooting seemed different. Okay. The the shooting of of Alex Prey was bit
54:58
different. He was surrounded by officers. He was on the ground face down. He had been disarmed. Um, it
Calculated Brutality of U.S. Politics - The Chilling Effects of ICE
55:07
seemed that some of the typical law and order arguments didn't necessarily hold as much water as they could have in in
55:13
the previous uh in the previous scenario. When I look across the 2A
55:18
online community at least, and I am, you know, a gun rights advocate, like I don't make any bones about that. Um, I
55:25
get a lot of mixed messages. Some people are saying, well, you know, don't Trump
55:30
said a lot of problematic things like you can't like it's an open carry state. Minnesota has certain laws, but if you
55:37
show up in this way, then you're fair game. A lot of people are saying the things that Trump said are problematic,
55:43
but his actions on gun laws are actually really good. There just seems to be a
55:48
people don't really know how to say it. It's very conficting. Um, my concern is that
55:56
this looks like an execution. I mean, if you play back the video, six shots were
56:01
fired at him. There's no like the law the way that my understanding of the law
56:07
you have to justify every pull of the trigger. So even in a in a scenario
56:12
where you could justify the pull of the trigger number one. What about two through five two through six rather? Um
56:19
what does this say? I think and some of the the comments from uh your colleagues were were mentioning about how untrained
56:26
how hamfisted a lot of these agents are. Why are they dealing with citizens? Okay. The counterargument is that
56:31
citizens are getting in the way. All right. There's so many levels to talk about this. One, as you said, we do have
56:38
Okay. Yes. I think it's it's a fact we have an immigration problem or at least like a documentation problem. But one of
56:46
the things I tried to push Andrew on, what are the root causes of that? Are we just dealing with symptoms or are we dealing with causes? Like let's talk
56:51
about NAFTA. Let's talk about the foreign policy. Let's talk about all the things that bring people here. I know I
56:58
put a lot I opened a lot of things and put a lot on the table. How do we actually deal with things in a
57:04
humane way? Again, maybe something that God would approve of. Uh that respects
57:10
law, does not intimidate and terrify citizens so that little kids are wearing
57:15
their passports around their necks going to school. What should this actually look like compared to the kind of
57:22
Keystone COP situation that seems to be unfolding now? Yeah, look, I mean, so,
57:27
uh, I feel like my comments should be where they're most useful. I'm not a I'm not a police expert, so I I I it it
57:35
obviously looked controversial enough to the American people that the administration is pivoting. Uh, it
57:40
obviously caused uh a major political firestorm. Um, I think this person is
57:45
going to be investigated or the all the officers being investigated um will be subject to whatever review is going to
57:52
happen. Um, I think you can say two things at once. Number one, uh, based on
57:59
the evidence we have, this person behaved in a manner that I think is not
58:04
recommended. you know, the video of him kicking the tail light in or whatever, kind of getting in these guys' face,
58:10
obviously getting on a list, and we can talk about should the government be keeping lists, and I'm not super
58:15
comfortable with that, but you know, if you just have if you if you watch this podcast, if you have friends who are involved in the kind of
58:21
protest, I would urge you to to not rise to that level. It's your life is not is not worth this. This is not going to
58:28
change uh much of anything, honestly. He's his life will just be lost in a tragedy. And
58:34
then I think additionally I think it that it needs to be said that uh you
58:40
know I think democrat control democratically controlled states capital T have engaged in um
58:49
the type of maneuvers which are I think basically extraleal sanctuary cities. the argument for it is is nearly
58:57
identical as um Calhounian nullification in the 1840s and 1830s that that states
59:03
can nullify federal law and just can be non-ooperation and yeah I think you you saw elements of this in the 60s too the
59:10
south just would do massive resistance it it is actually you know again they
59:17
may think they're on the side of angels this time as opposed to the yeah comic enslavement of people mechanism comically evil enslavement of people I
59:23
meant to Yes, like but like um it is functionally the same tactic. That all
59:28
being said, I think the administration is not doing itself any favors. Number one, the V of ICE generally speaking, I
59:37
really would I mean maybe maybe someone will comment on this and and tell me cuz I've asked around about this. How long
59:42
have they presented and looked like that? Because it it it does it does
59:47
smack of the paramilitary. It does. It does. It does. Even though this person I believe the trigger I believe
59:53
the trigger man was an eight-year man. So unless that person joined in Trump's first year because of
59:58
Trump I don't it's smacks of of Trump's soldiers even though that's not I think
1:00:04
point of fact true. I think that is not helpful. Um and I think obviously this
1:00:11
has to be done in a way where the administration um can get its goals. And then uh zooming out, I actually think
1:00:18
this is the most maddening part of this is my question is this. How many people have they actually deported in
1:00:24
Minnesota? Right. And so I think it's very very very very small.
1:00:29
Right. And what are you really going after? Exactly. As somebody who wants um you
1:00:35
know I think we've had too much immigration too fast. Okay. I think that that there is a limit to much to how much immigration the
1:00:41
United States should should have. I think yes there has an uneven history but if when you look when the admin when
1:00:47
the America took an immigration pause from 1924 to 1964 I know flawed
1:00:52
legislation there were some racist intents in it I understand the country uh united around itself it it it formed
1:01:00
a new polity uh a lot of these racial differences and and religious differences were smoothed over much less
1:01:06
emphasis on you know Irish versus English or Catholics versus Protestants by the early 60s that was all good um if
1:01:12
you want to have that sort of arrangement um I think there's a series of steps
1:01:18
that you can do and maintain the political will for it. My concern and I've articulated this elsewhere is that
1:01:24
elements of the administration effectively want to run a theater state. Now it's not a theater state for Mr. uh
1:01:31
for Mr. Freddy and for Miss Good not even but they want to rile up the
1:01:36
culture war and have a debate about it and it's actually kind of a simulacum of a debate about immigration because we're not
1:01:43
actually and I know I know I have friends in Southern California and they when I bring this up they get very upset because people have been deported you
1:01:49
know and it's it's a real thing I mean that we running pretty rough prisons in parts of Latin America it's a real thing
1:01:54
but the level of deportations is not significantly more than it was under Obama too. Yeah. Okay. So like my point
1:02:01
is I think it would be very unhelpful if we're having this kind of fake debate
1:02:06
about our cultural and religious differences when nothing is even being achieved on the policy. You can disagree
1:02:11
with the policy. Uh but like if it's fundamentally not even about trying to do a political
1:02:16
program, it's a very postmodern um nightmare. Yeah. No, I that's that's a good point
1:02:22
and I'm very sympathetic to that to that take as well. um how much of what's going on is is theater.
1:02:27
And again, yes, as you said, like no disrespect to the to the brutality because it is brutal, but it's brutal
1:02:34
towards what end. It's it's it's affecting a certain chilling effect or a cause and people have recorded ICE
1:02:40
agents saying, "Haven't you learned from what's happened?" And they're clearly actually calculating that some of the
1:02:45
brutality that they're exercising. Uh you think there's a clear calculation on that or do you think it's just it's just sort of like
1:02:51
it's post talk? I think it's post talk. I don't think that that's like that's their justification going into it. But I
1:02:56
think after it's happening, they're expecting a certain effect. They're expecting a chilling effect. They don't
1:03:01
want protest. You think that's the plan? I think that is part of it. I don't think that's exclusively what's going on, but I definitely think that that's
1:03:07
part of it. Um, and just I mean it's it's the it's more than optics to see
1:03:14
masked agents with no badge numbers just beating up citizens like in again in a
1:03:22
bubble theoretically if they're supposed to be going after undocumented uh immigrants like that would be one thing
1:03:28
but it is very very alarming and I think as you said I think the the administration has realized how bad it
1:03:34
actually looks. I wonder if there was almost a miscalculation of how they thought maybe they thought there was
1:03:40
going to be like a a BLM uh type of opposition.
1:03:45
Yeah, I I mean I think there wasn't especially in the the early days, you know, there there is there and this is
1:03:50
my criticism and and look, I think 2020 was was the worst year that I've ever experienced personally. and um you know,
1:03:57
but there is this element of I would say center-right media and right-wing media that just wants to endlessly relitigate
1:04:04
2020 cuz they they feel as if they they'll actually win this time, right? And uh you know and they they'd rather
1:04:10
talk about that than new issues. Um and look, my actual view is I think you know
1:04:15
authorities in this country I think Fouchy is basically a criminal. Um I think uh uh a lot of the the the
1:04:23
clampdowns on speech um you know while maybe not criminal very anti very unamerican. Um that all being said I
1:04:30
think to a certain extent better to move on um from a lot of these issues and not
1:04:35
be obsessed uh with the tragedy of six years ago. I think that's I think that's a very human uh that that's how humans
1:04:42
improve and move through history. There have been tragedies throughout history and I there was a sense were they trying
1:04:48
to reignite riots because they think the riots are unpopular for the Democrats and they will actually win this time. A
1:04:54
what a gamble but B uh cuz it didn't work in 2020. Democrats won.
1:04:59
Um and the left ruled culture until 22 23. Um but B I mean it's not a way to
1:05:05
govern. Yeah. No, I I agree with that and I this is one of my reflections of both the deadlock that I see that both the left
1:05:11
and the right is in u you know loosely defined which is that there's almost they're almost assuming a future in
1:05:17
which they just win and they and they just outmaneuver both sides both sides right I'm talking about the
1:05:23
center right the same right I'm not sure the left assumes it's going to win which makes me nervous I I I think the right is too confident
1:05:30
and the left is too what do you think the left sees well the left isn't one thing but like
1:05:36
uh yeah, of course my sense is uh the left currently, which may be just totally not voggish by the
1:05:42
time the Republicans get run out of town here in the midterms, but I think the left thinks the Biden
1:05:49
center left thing was the aberration Trump is history. I think they think that they don't have really charismatic
1:05:56
frontmen and like that's the the way of the future. I think they think uh that
1:06:01
they are I think they've actually actually embied some of the criticisms of the way they roll which is that they
1:06:07
actually are managerial and bureaucratic and overly politically correct and inauthentic.
1:06:12
Inauthentic. Yeah. Yeah. And I think they think that that is actually a handicapped even if they believe in that's the right thing to do.
1:06:18
Right. Right. And so yeah I mean center left I agree like the I'll say like democratic establishment.
1:06:23
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that they and that's actually from our strategic perspective in the Muslim community
1:06:29
approaching these midterms. Uh what we have to not let happen is that we understand and we've seen it already in
The Right is too Confident - The Left is too Nervous?
1:06:35
Pennsylvania and in New Jersey and other places. We've seen that they will get away with whatever we let
1:06:41
them get away with. Um when it comes to the level of depth that the restructuring is going to they know that
1:06:47
they're going to surge because of the oppositional force. They've been out of power just the way the history works.
1:06:53
They're they're going to have a blue wave. What's the character of the blue wave? Is it going to be one that is
1:06:58
really just, you know, Harris rebooted, the Harris, Hillary Clinton, whatever access nightmare that that was. Um, or
1:07:06
is it going to be something that she could run again? She could. She thinks now we're really ready for Hillary or whatever her her
1:07:12
slogan will be. Um, though she was in the Epste email, so who knows? Maybe that's finally.
1:07:18
No, I'm sorry. Hillary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But um so there's that. So our our
1:07:23
kind of mission from our perspective is to not let them get away with that. That if there's going to be a blue wave, the
1:07:29
fight is in the primaries and the fight is to make uh to push them and punish them, continue to punish them as much as
1:07:36
possible until they're going to actually practice good governance, get
1:07:41
off of this marriage. You know, divorce is real, all these sorts of things. Um I guess what I was thinking when I was
1:07:46
referring to the sense of history is maybe more of the radical or activist left. um in the sense that they when
1:07:54
they think about imag like the sense of history and and social change is you're going to find the other oppressed
1:08:00
classes you're going to make coalition with them you're going to march and then eventually it's like a future where there's no one on the right anymore
1:08:06
like I think that there's a lack of imagination that I observe in in people like that that keeps them deadlocked in
1:08:15
this type of thing where I think you you put it very powerfully relitigating the past over and over again. Well, this is going to be like the 60s over and over
1:08:21
again. we're fighting fascism over and over again, whatever it is symbolically within that community versus trying to actually
1:08:28
forge a creative path forward that maybe reorganizes some of the political
1:08:34
spectrum. Maybe it grabs people from uh maybe it for it forms a more articulate
1:08:40
floor of of common points that people haven't really shared before. Um I'm
1:08:46
concerned that we're getting we're losing the forest through the trees and that this is comes back to my comment
1:08:52
earlier about what's downstream and what's upstream. Some of the culture war I don't want to say relics but the flash
1:08:58
points that are dangled in front of our faces that are baiting us to react that are consequential do have meaning but
1:09:03
are fairly downstream compared to some of the upstream things of let's have people that aren't pedophiles running
1:09:08
society like let's have people who aren't you know I guess this my hesitation and I really don't want to seem
1:09:15
I don't want I don't want to gloss over it. I I think if wrongdoing is clearly
1:09:21
established by by law to have occurred in these cases in Minnesota that the people responsible should be held to
1:09:27
justice. Yeah. Um I think the social media age of taking social media age tactic of taking
1:09:35
one death in isolation in a country of 330 million and then rationing up the culture because we just you can see how
1:09:42
it happens right now, right? like if you don't support uh you know this then that
1:09:47
means you support ICE and then if you don't support ICE you're you know you're with Israel I mean like it's not that to
1:09:53
see like a world in which you know it's actually not about this person's death right and then to a certain extent you
Culture Wars as Baits to Society
1:09:58
know it wasn't about George Floyd's death you know he's dead uh you know there wasn't major policing reform in
1:10:04
this country there were some yeah but there wasn't uh u enormous e
1:10:09
economic programs for African-Americans uh nothing much changed It was it was it was a kayfave fight that entrenched a
1:10:15
lot of the powerful people uh that you were just alluding to and that is that's always I think historically the trick is that and you
1:10:22
mentioned co-optation earlier and that a lot of the symbolic energy that gets mobilized gets co-opted very very
1:10:27
easily. So I guess I mean this is not anything that really has an end. It's just you know my my frustration with
1:10:35
getting caught in these culde-sacs and and hoping that we can break free from it. Um the last thing, okay, on on the
1:10:42
ice and on the immigration issue, um I I do my observation is I do see a lot of people paying I would say
1:10:48
disproportionate attention to the symptoms as opposed to the causes. Like
1:10:53
I see people like again it's like yes, we do have a ton of undocumented immigrants that are here. Um there's I
1:10:59
think that's there's valid concerns about that. I think there's valid concerns about you know I'm not like necessarily an open borders person. And
1:11:05
I think like yeah, it makes sense that you want to have some coherent policy on that, but I don't see hardly anything
1:11:12
being done about the root causes of the immigration that now again has become so
1:11:17
entrenched in the culture war when it comes to like I mean you'll talk to people about NAFTA and they look at you
1:11:23
like you have two heads you know like or the very intentional and I appreciate your point distinguishing between uh the
1:11:30
US and Europe. It is very very different. um the way in which the US destabilizes society, the way in which
1:11:36
we destabilized Iraq, the way in which we destabilize Syria and and places in North Africa, my maybe naive
1:11:44
uh assumption is that people want to stay in their homes. Yeah. That people all else being equal base level security, they would not actually
1:11:50
want to move across the world and go to the US, Canada or or Europe. But if
1:11:56
we're going to be funding this extremist group and then you know tearing down this regime or whatever and then there's
1:12:03
very few choices for those people then it becomes a very appealing option. So
1:12:08
am I is this an accurate observation? Are people paying sufficient attention to the root causes of what is really
1:12:16
stressing our our immigration or I mean I have a I have a I mean my view is is basically um a conservative
1:12:24
anti-globalism or or a center center right anti-globalism. I globalism I think globalization
1:12:30
um is both process and project. So I'm not
1:12:35
opposed to it as a process. I think that there's going to be greater exchanges between societies. I think that's
1:12:42
history. Yeah. Um but I think as a grand project of
1:12:47
unlimited immigration and um unaccountable financialization of everything um I think it
1:12:54
I don't think it's been this panacea. I I think I think in 2025 when you we're sorry 226 when Americans say you know
1:13:01
super Americans think the country is going the wrong direction have been saying it for decades and that corresponds with the era of
1:13:06
globalization. I think we should take that seriously as as as Americans, as small D Democrats, um as as small R Rep
1:13:13
Republicans. Um I think it's it's an unamerican uh um phenomenon. I I think
1:13:20
you know you on the other hand, I think you can't um you know, you can't put spilled milk back in the glass. You you
1:13:27
can't uh it is water under the bridge. We got to move forward. And I do think you know there's some constructive ways
1:13:33
of doing it. Number one, and I think it's both the most important and relatively easiest,
1:13:39
we've got to stop these wars. Yeah. And uh you know, I I'll take something a miniature
1:13:45
um something that I think the administration's done pretty well um has
1:13:50
been Syria policy for instance. Um I, you know, I'm sure Akan al- Shar is a
1:13:58
complicated human being. Uh but he's the head of Syria and the administration working
1:14:04
pragmatically with him actually faster than I think a democratic administration would have. Yeah. Uh you want to talk about remigration.
1:14:10
You want to talk about the US not intervening. Uh I think that is a again Syria is a small country. It's a small
1:14:16
economy. Um it's a tragic part of the world. Um at least the last 15 years. Uh
1:14:23
I think that is a great example of how the US can roll. Um there's people who don't want to see us do that. uh the
1:14:29
Israeli state who routinely are trying to dissect the the place still. Um but I
1:14:34
think that there there is hope for that and I think if we can engage with different societies in the world, I mean
1:14:39
look uh I don't think we can run pretty much any other society better than they can run themselves. I mean there there's
1:14:45
there's uh exceptions. I mean I mean North Korea strikes me as fairly scary based on the reports. Um but I
1:14:51
don't think we can re I don't think we can reform North Korea for North Koreans. Um I don't think we actually
1:14:57
know that much about Russia or Iran or China and uh you know going towards it from a
1:15:03
position of these are illegitimate regimes. I think there's borderline no such thing
1:15:09
as an illegitimate regime and I and I think what what Trump said himself when he first running for president are we so
1:15:15
innocent I think is also a a humbling and uh good uh selfch check. And so I
1:15:21
think if we if we just engage with the rest of the world not trying to
1:15:27
bring a messionic uh converting crusading energy uh towards every
1:15:33
interaction I think that goes a long way to improving things. Yeah. No, I actually completely agree with that. Um, and I think that with
1:15:41
globalization, you know, I think, uh, definitely, um, one of the things that Andrew and I talked about was how this
1:15:47
is something also that that plays into the hands of elites or whatever you want to call the Epstein class, that the
1:15:54
constant flow of free undocumented labor or lowcost undocumented labor, it messes
1:16:00
with wages here. It messes with affordability here. It causes all sorts of problems. So, you know, my my hope is
1:16:07
that um your perspective will take on much more with other people because I
1:16:13
just see a lot of attention paid to trying to put spilled milk back in the bottle that just cleaning up the the
1:16:19
immigrants that are here. And I'm not saying that, okay, if people have committed crimes, of course, but I'm a systems guy. I want to fix the
1:16:26
problem, right? If there's a huge hole torn in the bottom of the boat before I worry about what's going on with the
1:16:32
window, I want to fix the hole in the bottom of the boat. Um, that I mean, so I've got one last
1:16:37
question for you. Uh, just so you can offer thoughts. We've got midterms this year, 2026. It's going to be a very,
1:16:44
very important. It feels like a very momentous. I don't want to fall into the cliche of saying it's most important election year of your life because
1:16:50
everybody says that, but it does seem that some really, really important things are at stake.
1:16:56
What are some of the big things to keep our eyes on that you see taking shape for?
The Big Things to Keep our eye on in U.S. Politics
1:17:01
The big macro thing is if if the Republicans actually were to lose the Senate, I think that would actually change a lot of things. I think that is
1:17:07
highly unlikely. I'll say highly unlikely. Uh and uh but
1:17:12
I think base case they're going to lose the House. I think the House is pretty gone. Um but I will take the the other
1:17:19
side of it that I'm not entirely sure how important it is. I mean, if you recall, uh, the midterms of 2022 were
1:17:27
supposed to be this massive red wave. Uh, the conventional wisdom is that they weren't. Although, I think people
1:17:32
actually have a they struggle to read the elections. So, like, uh, the Republicans uh, underperformed in the
1:17:38
Senate and like that was very disappointing, especially Republican e efforts in places like Pennsylvania and Georgia and Arizona. Um, but in the fine
1:17:46
print, the Republicans won the popular vote. Yeah. and uh the Republicans then won the popular
1:17:52
vote in 2024 for the first time in two decades. So, and the first time winning
1:17:58
the non-popular vote as a non-incumbent president since 1988. So, it had been a
1:18:04
generation at that point by far. Um, so I I would just basically look at the popular vote in 26 as the most revealing
1:18:11
thing. In a lot of ways, it's sort of depressing. I don't think there's going to be these massive swings in the House.
1:18:17
I think the Democrats will take it. Uh but we are very accustomed to the sort of 94 2006 2010 huge waves. The
1:18:24
gerrymanders are are so much more intense. Um and you know pox on both
1:18:29
houses. I mean I mean as part of his asart as as part of his uh um uh machine
1:18:36
run for president, his his gear for president. I think Newsome just got the Democrats five seats in California with
1:18:41
this uh with this referendum in 25. And like look the Californians can vote where they want to. I I want to I used to live
1:18:48
there. Love the state. My favorite state. Um there are tens of millions of
1:18:53
Trump voters in California and I don't think what California needs is more one party receive
1:19:02
Democratic representatives as opposed to 35 or whatever they have. And so I think that's a pretty ominous uh maneuver they
1:19:07
did. I think Nome was very savvy. I think uh it was politically impressive, but I think it was yet again a sort of
1:19:15
negative political or policy dynamic for the for the republic. Anyone to keep to keep our eyes on when
1:19:20
it comes to presidential showdown in 28? Too early cuz Vance is now I mean with
1:19:26
with Peter Teal coming out, you know, heavy in the Epstein files. A lot of people are saying now, oh, like how's
1:19:31
that going to tie to Vance? Um is it still Vance's to lose? I think I think JD is the front runner.
1:19:37
So, I think I think two I think too much bullishness and too much bearishness are are wrong uh for for him. I think he is
1:19:45
I think he's the front runner. I don't think he's the overwhelming front runner. Um I think uh I I think Newsome
1:19:51
and Vance are the front runners and I I think you know gun to my head that would probably be the net matchup. But I think we're a long way away from it. And uh um
1:19:58
I would not underestimate dark horses on either side. I would not I would not I
1:20:04
would not underestimate a dark horse on the right. and um and uh I think uh it'll be very interesting.
1:20:10
Okay, Kurt Mills, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate the conversation. Thank you. Y take care. Asalam alalaykum. Now, you've reached
1:20:16
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1:20:22
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1:20:29
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