Ep 229. - Al-Sharaa and the New Syria with Dr Diana Darke
The new Syrian government has had to deal with a bewildering array of internal and external challenges. How it deals with these will determine the future integrity and progress of the country. Today we welcome back onto the show historian Dr Diana Darke who told us previously that she will return back to the country and her house in the old city of Damascus after a period of being barred from entering. She tells us about the new Syria, its hopes and challenges.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
we're speaking on the day where Ahmed Sharah has met with Donald Trump in Saudi Arabia You
0:06
were of course blacklisted by the Assad regime because you were quite critical You entered this this new Syria No credit cards work in the whole of Syria Israel has
0:15
taken Mount Hermmon knowing full well that it controls about a third of all Syria's
0:21
water resources in the south It's why I've returned so optimistic and so so positive
0:30
The new Syrian government has had to deal with a bewildering array of internal and external
0:36
challenges How it deals with these will determine the future integrity and progress of the country
0:43
Today we welcome back onto the show historian Dr Diana Dark who told us previously that she
0:48
will return back to the country and her house in the old city of Damascus after a period of being
0:54
barred from entering the country She tells us about the new Syria its hopes and its challenges
1:02
Diana Duck welcome back to The Thinking Muslim Thank you Really wonderful to have you with us
1:07
And I know since we spoke last time uh you've returned back to Syria and I've invited you back on the show uh to really get your firsthand experience of the new Syria um what you saw your
1:20
observations the Syrian people their psychology at this stage you know how they're thinking about uh
1:27
the future We're speaking on the day where Ahmed Shar has met with um uh with Donald Trump in Saudi
1:36
Arabia and uh there's hope that the Americans will lift sanctions In fact there is a very clear
1:43
uh statement that they will lift sanctions on on Syria So I want to ask you a little bit about that
1:48
but also about your passion I suppose which is you know the architectural sites the cultural sites of
1:54
of uh of Syria and uh some of your observations of of uh and updates possibly in terms of your
2:03
Islamesque um um the conversation we had about the uh the architectural uh qualities of a lot of
2:11
the buildings in in in in Syria So let let's start really with uh where we left our last conversation
2:19
I think I asked you about whether you had any apprehensions about returning back to Syria and
Return to Syria after blacklisting
2:26
um you were of course blacklisted by the Assad regime because you were quite critical of the
2:33
uh Assad government Um so just tell us give us an like you know when you entered Syria this
2:39
time round did did that hinder your u your entry in in in into the country Yeah I mean what a day
2:46
to be having this interview as you say the day that Trump has lifted sanctions I mean a dre a day we've been praying for My goodness you know so incredible And uh yes uh since we last spoke I
2:58
have been able to go back to Syria and I'm so glad I went I've was such an uplifting and inspiring
3:05
trip and and despite you know subsequent there have been hiccups of course you know sectarian
3:10
killings things with the Drews Israel I mean so many problems which of course is what the
3:16
media so often highlights that then distorts the overall picture but I can honestly say
3:23
uh based on my trip that I did return very very optimistic and so glad I took the risk if you
3:31
like of going as you mentioned the the whole blacklisting thing I I mean I was nearly not
3:38
let on the plane at Heath Row Turkish Airlines You know I was flying via um Istanbul direct into
3:46
um Damascus airport Yes And they said to me uh why haven't you got a visa and I said well I'm going
3:52
to buy it on arrival And they said no no no You should have an you should have an e visa So I had
3:57
this great argument with them Um and they had to take it right up to their superiors to eventually
4:03
uh reluctantly let me on the plane And I thought my goodness am I not even going to be allowed to
4:09
board the plane here in London but but thank goodness having having got to Istanbul there
4:14
were no further questions But when I landed at Damascus I I was prepared I'd researched it I
4:20
knew that you could buy a cash visa in dollars American dollars had to be cash because of the
4:27
sanctions of course No credit cards work in the whole of Syria Oh really so no no no absolutely nothing You know no ATMs no nothing Nothing with a foreign credit card You know forget it Everything
4:37
is cash and dollars are the most loved form of cash So so I went prepared with all my dollars
4:45
cash And I I um I bought you know I paid for the visa on arrival And then at immigration
4:53
uh they said to me "There's a problem." Everyone else was allowed through getting their visas
4:58
stamped and I was held back And they telephoned their superiors who telephoned their superiors
5:04
It went all the way up I was taken off to a separate part of the airport to be interviewed
5:10
by the colonel from HTS in charge of the airport right and he said "Look you know your blacklisting
5:18
is coming up on the system Uh but we don't know the reason We just know that you're blacklisted
5:23
You might be wanted by Interpol." At which point I just burst out laughing and I said "What you
5:28
you think I'm some international criminal with a arrest warrant?" So I explained the reason for my
5:34
blacklisting and I was able to show him my books and say "Look I've consistently been anti-Assad
5:41
and that's the reason for it." So he agreed to let me in but he said I shouldn't really
5:47
be doing this because we haven't had the all clear from Interpol yet but I'm going to override that
5:52
and let you into the country but when you come back pass by my office and then we'll you know
5:58
in the hope that Interpol have responded by then we'll um we'll settle the matter for once and for all So thank goodness I did do that Interol had confirmed I wasn't an international criminal So he
6:09
said "Fine your blacklisting is lifted and you're you're welcome back at any time." So alhamdulillah
6:16
it was a it was definitely worth taking the risk but I I wasn't expecting to be detained like that
6:23
at the airport On the other hand it shows they're doing their job you know because they didn't know maybe I was some international drug smuggler or whatever you know So it shows the systems working
Donate to Baitulmaal
6:35
This is your brother Mean Muttar CEO of the month of is right around the corner with
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so that your gift can reach the beneficiaries in time for aid May Allah accept your generous
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donation and and you know you've so once you you you went through this bureaucratic
Sense of freedom?
7:43
uh challenge you entered this this new Syria Now I I uh I've been told by many uh Syrians
7:49
many friends that there is sort of a palpable sense of freedom in the air People feel that
7:54
freedom Is that what you've experienced in on your visit yes Uh definitely everybody
8:01
talks about everything I mean after all all the world's media are allowed in to travel everywhere
8:08
right say whatever they like You know there is no censorship There is no nobody listening really So
8:15
so no it is so different I can't begin to tell you in terms of everybody wants to talk about politics
8:21
Everybody has a view about everything They're not afraid to voice it And it's most definitely
8:28
uh um a clear sense of of that that kind of you know openness and and freedom that people can
8:37
express themselves Now of course that said that's only one set of freedoms you know inevitably and
8:45
uh you know bound to be the case given what Syria has been through in this in this civil war that's
8:53
lasted you know nearly 14 years Um there is also a um a massive tiredness and worn outness about
9:04
Damascus Damascus is tired It's exhausted It's it needs TLC you know there's been no money to look
9:12
after things to repair things So uh and of course money doesn't miraculously pop out of trees just
9:21
because Bashar al-Assad has gone You know in in fact a lot of Syrian charities um uh have
9:28
said that they're really struggling because so many people in the West who used to donate money
9:33
think "Oh well Assad's gone now That's the end of the problem I'll stop donating money." Oh wow So
9:38
a lot of a lot of uh Syrian charities have found themselves in in difficulties but but economically
9:46
things have not improved You know people people are living handtomouth You know 90% of the
9:52
population remains below um the poverty line So economically so so it's this curious mix of
10:00
yes politically there's freedom but economically there's huge hardship and and just on the physical
10:07
level you know the the electricity infrastructure is shot to pieces from the war Um and while I was
10:15
even there they managed to increase the power of the grid to get it from 4 hours of electricity
10:20
a day up to 6 hours which seems like a miracle It seems like a a real blessing back in December and
10:27
under the acid regime it was still only two hours a day Um so you know and I have a I have a friend
10:34
who works as a senior engineer in the Ministry of Electricity and he told me that by the summer
10:39
they're hoping to get it up to 12 hours So that's 12 out of 24 hours I mean that will
10:45
seem like heaven You know nobody has been used to that for all these years people have had to you
10:51
know uh not rely on on the state for all of this all installed you know solar power lighting and
10:58
and they live differently as a result So um you know I was able to to stay in my own house again
11:06
Wonderful you know alongside the the family who've been living there for for the last um 10 years who who are close friends of mine And uh you know they've learned for example um well they
11:20
can't have hot showers really Um so you you wash in cold water You take that as a matter of course
11:26
um you only uh do your your washing you know in the washing machine type stuff that we might over
11:32
here you know run the washing machine you know two or three times a week there you know you save it
11:37
up and you take it somewhere where where it can be done you know with somebody you know who's got a
11:43
bit more power or who's got access to a generator you know you adjust your life to fit in with the
11:49
local circumstances so in a way that to us seems extraordinary but but to most Syrians has become
11:55
normal normal Now journalists going and staying in hotels of course won't be aware of any of that
12:01
because the all the hotels have got generators everything seems to be functioning all the time but you know living like an ordinary Syrians in my own house I can experience that the daily struggle
12:13
if you like just to get the basics like like power and water water incidentally is key you know when
12:21
I when I can't stress that enough the poor old bara river that comes down you know from the
12:28
snow melt in runs through the center of Damascus It's in a bad way It's filthy It's polluted It
12:35
really needs attention Um and there's been no rain Absolutely no rain They've never had such a dry
12:42
spring Desperate for rain So water going forward is something that's going to require a lot of a
12:48
lot of management and care You know with climate change of course you know there's less snow melt
12:54
coming off the anti-Lban range Israel's taken over Mount Hermon which is all of these issues politics
13:02
and geopolitics and and climate unfortunately all play into the same game Israel has taken
13:10
Mount Hermon knowing full well that it actually has access to has controls about a third of all
13:18
Syria's water resources in the south I mean that's massive Massive Yeah um HDS were a revolutionary
HTS bureaucracy?
13:26
group and there was some concerns initially in December whether the group could transition into
13:32
an effective bureaucratic state Um you know did you observe um I mean you you've suggested there
13:40
that the electricity has improved and but did you observe you know a an effective bureaucracy at play in in Damascus and beyond well yes It's interesting because uh one of the things I was
13:51
told on arrival was that the traffic was utterly chaotic which which it is Um because there there
13:56
were no traffic police at all and so everybody just was complete free-for-all and because so many people then suddenly came into Damascus from other parts of the country who of course had not been
14:06
able to travel there beforehand So there was this huge number influx of of cars in into Damascus
14:13
These were returnees Return Exactly returnees um who were able to visit their families and
14:18
everything for the first time So um there were and the traffic police were had been sort of disbanded
14:24
I gather initially but but even in the time I was there um you could see it starting to come
14:30
back and there were these very smart young uh men in uniform wearing a sort of black black uniform
14:37
with white ties um proudly directing the traffic very efficiently in in in the center of Damascus
14:44
Um I went back to the Ministry of Tourism where I had um many contacts 20 years ago
14:50
you know when I first wrote my my initial guide book to Syria You know I kn I knew I knew the people there well One of them is now the deputy minister He's in the intervening time he's
15:02
um you know he's he's risen up the top And these are all people who who obviously care deeply
15:07
about about Syria they've they've struggled you know through the chaos of the last 14 years and
15:14
are just a bit overwhelmed now And again you know so if you go to the Ministry of
15:21
um of tourism and it's still in the same building but you can't go in there things like you can't go
15:26
into the main entrance because it's all kind of blocked off because they're working on something or other you know something's malfunctioned and so you have to go in this curious way around the
15:35
back Um and having said that when I finally did get into the building with no appointment at all
15:43
I just showed up and said "Hello I'm here in the country you know I I used to know these people
15:48
and this and I showed my guide book and I said you know can I talk to anybody?" And so they ring up on their walkie-talkie and say you know I've got this this woman Dr Diana they call me you know do
16:00
you know anything about her can we send her up and so the word comes down yes yes send her up
16:06
So I just take myself up into the building and uh and of course I then start to recognize people
16:11
sitting there Um anyway it was wonderful just to sort of catch up with all these people and
16:16
to hear about their stories Yeah Um and they said you know they face of course a huge challenge in
16:23
terms of what Syria's got to do now to get its infrastructure back ready for tourism but and
16:29
and they said that they're initially going to be focusing on Gulf tourism trying to encourage Arabs
16:35
from the Gulf and neighboring countries to come Okay They said Europeans they reckon it's going
16:40
to take another five years until it will be ready for Europeans to come But who knows that this was
16:46
before the announcement about uh about lifting of the sanctions of course So so things may be
16:51
a bit faster than you I mean the will is the this is the thing This is what was so wonderful That's why I've returned so optimistic and so so positive It's that you get this real sense of this
17:02
collective will make it work to overcome you the obvious challenges but everybody and this is the
17:10
thing if the will is there it it will happen It it really will I mean one very positive story
17:17
actually I want to mention before I forget about it So my my architect um when I did the
17:23
restoration project on the house I bought 20 years ago we did this three-year restoration project
17:29
um together And so I got to know him very well during that time you know in the Syrian craftsman
17:35
when the revolution broke out um he left the country in 2012 with his family and went to
17:43
Istanbul He said to me "Syria is finished That's it It's finished." I hated that a lot Yeah And
17:48
and so he said "I've got to make a new life in a new country and I've just got to get on with it." And that's precisely what he did He he went right back to the bottom of the of the heap Had to
17:58
learn Turkish gradually worked his way up By the end of the the the period um he had actually set
18:05
up his own business as a Syrian entrepreneur as an architect Um now amazingly he was there the same
18:14
time as me by pure fluke We were both there at the same time So we met again in my house and he said
18:20
to me I'm bringing back my family this summer He said um the children he said are like little Turks
18:27
now because that's they've grown up entirely in a Turkish education system They they've lost their
18:33
Arabic pretty much and they're going to have to lose a year of schooling to get it back But he said better that than to you know at least they in return they're going to get a chance to come
18:43
back to their own country I mean how often does that happen and and this is a guy whose instincts
18:49
I really trust and he has a nose for these things and he sees all the opportunities He's been he's
18:56
been three times since December scouting out opportunities trying to get a sense for what
19:02
what the mood is where where the opportunities are and he's very positive And so the fact that
19:07
he's talking like that and again this was before the lifting of the sanctions Um he he said to me
19:12
then even if they don't lift the sanctions there are going to be so many Syrians like me who want
19:17
to go back and who will bring their money with them and bring their expertise and we will we
19:23
will help rebuild the country We feel it as a duty and so the numbers of people coming back
19:29
are impressive now I mean the the latest ones I saw was 1.7 million Wow Have now returned from
19:36
Turkey from from Turkey from Europe from from many places And that number will will increase
19:43
uh as the country gradually gets itself back onto its feet as as the electricity returns You know
19:50
you've got to have the basics in in place before people will come back And but for those who've
19:56
still got homes to come back to there they've already made little sort of wrecky trips if you
20:02
like to sort of see to check you know um to make sure that they could bring their families back
20:09
safely and start up a new life But um in humps I'll just tell you this too while while it's in
20:14
my mind So on one day I went out of uh Damascus with friends to visit other friends in Humps
20:22
I'd seen the um you know Humpt was the capital of the revolution It was pulverized by Assad
20:28
um by Assad's air force It was the first place from which the famous green buses took the rebels
20:35
into Idlib from from there Yeah Um it was it was a complete writeoff you know really shocking
20:42
destruction Um and and now so so the souks in particular were utterly destroyed and I was there
20:52
when I was last there in 2018 I also went to HS the souks were there kind of semi- restored but
20:59
empty absolutely empty nothing going on hardly now I went back the souks are busy and bustling and
21:07
I said to my friends this is incredible what's happened to you and they said these are people
21:13
from Idlib who've now been able to come back and re you know go back to their homes reopen their
21:20
shops and staggering this is you know this is just what people do from their collective will to
21:26
return and make it all happen and and I was just blown away by that I thought wow you know this is
21:33
just a snapshot of what is happening where where people are coming back you know to where from
21:40
where they were displaced and haven't been able to go for you know for for over a decade So it's a
21:46
remarkable site Honestly I it it's so um inspiring to see this I mean how often does it happen that
21:54
refugees can go back Yeah to their own homes it's almost never you know so it's it's terrific to see
Secure to visit Damascus?
22:01
You said in in in your answer there that um there is a a recognition that Syria needs to rebuild and
22:08
part of that process is to encourage tourism to the country and there is you know they're
22:14
encouraging Arabs and Gulf tourism to to to Syria um uh many European Muslims many American Muslims
22:22
you know viewers of this show uh would want to visit visit Damascus from from your perspective
22:30
is this the right time to do so and from a sort of security and safety perspective are there
22:36
any challenges one needs to be aware of to to be perfectly honest um no I think if people wanted
22:42
to go now um they absolutely could Um and if then if if they're Syrian then they'll probably have a
22:48
Syrian passport no problem at all If they're not then as I said you you buy a visa on arrival Um
22:55
it's interesting Uh so they charge EU citizens $75 American for for the visa If you're a Brit or an
23:05
American then it's 250 uh US dollars And that is apparently based on a reciprocity right so it's as
23:13
straightforward as that Yeah Um so but once you're in I mean obviously I was staying in my own house
23:19
but I did go round and look at the hotels I was amazed actually that the hotels uh all the hotels
23:29
that were there before most of those are still functioning they're being run extremely well
23:36
um they're nearly at capacity so you've got that sense of of you know foreign people coming in um
23:45
Arab people coming in I mean businessmen coming in visiting delegations all the time so you can stay
23:53
in a boutique hotel in the old city um for about something between $100 and $150 a day You know
24:02
it's not it's it's it's considering what they're offering which are beautiful surroundings you know
24:08
in a lovely courtyard house with everything fully functioning you know no power cuts cuz they're all
24:14
they've all backed up with their generators and everything So beautiful food My goodness the food
24:19
I must I must diverge a bit there because again the souks are full of beautiful produce the
24:27
quality the freshness I mean forget Waitros and MS MS and Spencers you know it it's just unbelievable
24:36
the quality of the produce Um it was the walnut season when I was there So fresh the fresh walnuts
24:42
honestly straight straight from the tree I mean uh the quality of the of the fruit and vegetables
24:49
it's just amazing And I marveled at it to my Syrian friends I said "How is this even possible
24:55
you know you're in a drought You've had all these terrible conditions You know how do people manage
25:01
this?" And and Syria has leared to um to adapt basically to its position So the farmers have
25:09
leared to grow what will flourish in these circumstances Syria is self-sufficient in food
25:15
It does not need to import things I mean there's a bit of imported stuff So for example I bought some
25:22
uh dates uh in they had a range of dates all from different sacks and I asked where they were all
25:29
from Um and they were from all over the place basically but but and uh some of them were from
25:36
Medina So I recognized them because when I was in Saudi Arabia last year it was the first time I'd
25:41
I'd eaten Medina dates which are very distinctive So I immediately recognized them and said "Those
25:46
from Medina?" And he said "Yes yes you know from El Medina." I was flabbergasted So they do import
25:53
a few things Yes Um but prices really not too bad I mean things like you know tomatoes you
26:01
can buy in in large quantities Um and the farmers have leared to to adapt and and so Syria has been
26:11
kind of insulated from the world economy So the fact that Trump initially put sanctions on Syria
26:17
I was a complete nonsense made no no impression at all because Syria didn't have any interactions
26:25
with with America Yeah I mean this this obviously we're in a very fastm moving world now Things will
26:31
change But I'm just telling you that from the outside you might imagine that there's nothing
26:38
and that people are really uh you know struggling to get to even get the basics but the the quality
26:44
of fresh fruit and vegetables is phenomenal Now it's true not many people can afford meat Meat
26:52
is a total luxury So but people have learned to do without meat Fine You know you can do without
26:58
meat it it so that's what I'm explaining that people have adapted and and and and got used to
27:05
uh the circumstances in which they find themselves As we we said earlier we're talking on the day
Sanctions lifted
27:11
where sanctions have been officially lifted and and Trump is visiting or or Amad Shara is visiting
27:17
Trump in in Riyad Um there's a actually before I ask about the the sort of the impact of that
27:25
um let's talk about those sanctions I mean a lot of what you describe of Syria at this moment you
27:32
know it's it precarious position economically I suppose is down to those sanctions Um what does
27:39
it mean for Syria now that these sanctions have been have been hopefully lifted it means that
27:45
that largecale investment by foreign companies can come in Okay and it means that um well for example
27:54
um things like the the aircraft fleet can be um renovated One of one of the things that's quite
28:02
striking on landing at Damascus uh airport you come in on the runway and there are all these sort
28:09
of dead air airplanes like sort of like decaying carcasses along the side of the runway just
28:16
sitting there you know covered in dust absolutely falling apart You then get to the airport and the
28:24
um the jetways or whatever they're called the things that used to connect you know directly to the aircraft so you could walk from that straight into the terminal building Those which used to
28:34
function you know back in the day when I last flew into Damascus but they're just sort of hanging there lifelessly Clearly they haven't got you know the spare parts or or whatever it needs you know
28:46
to to to invest to get all this working again So even though the distance from where the from where
28:52
the plane uh parked to the terminal building was something ridiculous like 150 m they had to bring
28:59
a bus you know to take us that tiny distance because the stuff's not working I mean this is just one example um of of of the many things that don't work in in Syria Um the road networks Uh I
29:14
mean I I traveled on the main the main Damascus hamps highway um is pretty good actually It's not
29:21
not too bad at all But there are other areas where where they will be in need of infrastructure The
29:27
train the train networks will will need um a lot of investment to get going again So so it will it
29:35
will transform things and once the whole banking system is open to um to uh to Syria and and the
29:46
world can come in uh it will it will mean that for example as I mentioned you at the beginning that
29:54
um credit cards will will work within uh within the system um ATMs will start to function with a
30:02
foreign card Yeah All all of these things uh will will come back to to bring Syria into you know the
30:10
fold of of a normal functioning country because you you do get the sense because there just isn't
30:16
any of that at the moment that this is a country which is semifunctioning You know it's sort of
30:21
it's ekking out an existence on on the on the sidelines of the world's economy and that that's
30:28
the position it's been being been relegated to So all of that will will gradually change It's not
30:34
going to suddenly automatically change overnight It will take time But they've got some very good
30:41
people some really top people Um Abdullah al Dardi for example he used to be the minister
30:47
of of economy I'm pretty sure at one point He's a and in during the revolution he he he worked in uh
30:54
in in Beirut on a sort of a plan to sort of bring Syria back So all that work has not been wasted
31:02
You know he he he and other people like him have been brought in to the new administration Just the
31:09
other day Sammy Almy who used to be the ambassador here in London for many years they've brought
31:15
him back in as an advisor um into I think the Ministry of Industry or something But I mean so
31:22
where they can find people who are highly skilled technocratic people they're bringing them in to
31:28
help because they know they need this help So this is not a parochial sort of a a a cronyistic type
31:34
of government Absolutely not Absolutely not No no no no they are very clearly bringing in
31:40
experts from you know from wherever they can get them and there and there are lots of people yeah
31:46
um offering this expertise um Karam Sha is another one you know who's now gone you know he's he's now
31:52
working full-time um for for you know for the new Syria if you like it's terrific you know I
31:58
mean there there are so many people who are only too happy to offer their expertise and the new
32:05
government is open to that so it It's saying you know yes come We need you Yeah Madina you know as
Experience under Assad
32:12
well as I do that we're going to get a barrage of comments in the comment section suggesting that
32:19
you know we've capitulated to we've accepted you know a a Syria which is um which is now in the pay
32:28
of of the Americans and the Zionists and and and you know all sorts of other conspiracy theories
32:34
Um and there is this sort of non-acceptance I suppose uh out there of of just how cruel the
32:41
Assad regime was You met with ordinary Syrians Um just tell us a little bit about their experience
32:48
of his last decade under under Assad Well heavens I mean I don't see how anybody can argue in favor
32:56
of the Assad regime when it became so clear as all the prisons were opened in SA above all when it
33:06
became so clear all these hundreds of thousands of Syrians who were detained there simply for voicing
33:13
opposition or sometimes with no charge at all they simply you know disappeared lost their lives went
33:20
through extraordinary torture right um this was well known but people didn't dare talk about it So
33:27
uh I've never been in the slightest doubt about the sheer brutality of the regime but of course it
33:33
was always very good at putting a face on to the West of there was always this argument well it's
33:40
us or the terrorists you know this everybody who opposed them was automatically labeled a terrorist
33:47
which was an absurd narrative you know re really ridiculous and uh so and it particularly annoyed
33:54
me as well the way Assad always presented himself as the defender of the minorities Yeah And a lot
34:00
of people fell for that line I I never accepted that line I mean it was simply not true you know
34:07
he he he I mean there are so many things you know that that he he he did uh to project that image
34:15
So he liked to be photographed alongside you know church leaders and this kind of thing But again
34:21
it was it was it was fake It was fake It was all um was all uh not not the true story at all
Al-Sharaa’s statecraft
34:29
How do you respond to those who are a little bit uneasy about you know Ahmed Shara uh making overs
34:38
to the west and and meeting with Donald Trump and the optics of that i mean like explain to me
34:46
um how you would you would ex express or explain you know his predicament but also what what his
34:56
form of statecraft is about Yeah Now this is such a fascinating question Um he he is a very complex
35:06
man clearly with a with an extremely interesting past Yeah Uh and again the western media focuses
35:14
exclusively on his jihadi past The fact that he had links with al-Qaeda Um um they they try to
35:22
say he had links with with with with ISIS And it's true that originally at one point he was
35:28
allied with al-Bakdadi but then he changed and he actually fought fought against ISIS Um my own
35:35
view and this is based on having watched him very carefully listened to his speeches Yeah
35:42
Um and rather unorthodoxly perhaps um I I have seen because it appeared online um a sample of
35:51
his handwriting and I'm I'm a trained graphologist and I've done um I've done work you know for the
35:58
British government in the past on um Arabic script because the principles of graphology apply to no
36:04
matter what the language what what you're looking at are um are things which are unconscious in the
36:10
language So continuity stroke spacing pressure speed um all these things which which show in
36:19
in the in which you cannot disguise in your own writing you know no matter how hard you try So
36:26
um I I was watching him very closely wanting to see for precisely this reason you know I mean
36:33
for for the same reason you know oh what is he what is he going to do what what how is he going
36:39
to present himself now and I can honestly say that I've been very reassured um by the way he
36:47
has conducted himself by the things he's done by the things he's said by the things he has openly
36:54
addressed He hasn't ever tried to um paper over anything or deny anything He he um he he is and
37:03
this is what I see in in in his writing Um and I actually last night on my own website wrote
37:10
an analysis of his handwriting because I just thought I'm taking a different view on this man
37:16
You know a lot of people have written profiles on him and have kind of condemned him a bit as a a man who's thirsty for power Um you know yes duplicitus All of this I I I'm absolutely not of
37:30
that view What I see is a very uh complex man who has been on a journey you know to use that awful
37:39
phrase but he really has learned through what he's experienced and what he has um lived through He
37:48
has learned how to adapt very quickly to changing new situations He thinks outside the box His very
37:55
original mind with with um great flare and um he will bring innovative in innovative
38:04
solutions to an evolving problem So that's way more than pragmatism You know pragmatism there's
38:11
something rather passive about pragmatism There is nothing passive about Ahmed Ashara He he sees what the future uh he sees the changing things and he he's sufficiently nimble mentally to
38:25
adapt to it and read the situation and find a way through it find an innovative innovative way to
38:33
to arrive at a at a at a solution and and I think you know you couldn't find a better person frankly
38:38
for all the challenges that that Syria undoubtedly will face you know he they're extremely fortunate
38:46
to um to have a man like that who who also of course really understands Syrian society He
38:53
is a Syrian through and through Um you know his family originally was from the from the Jolan Um
39:02
he you know he he's highly educated Um but above all as I said his it's his approach that I think
39:10
is is unique and uniquely relevant for today when you you'd have to be fasting You have to
39:19
um be able to bring in all sides So people criticize him for not getting rid of his
39:25
um his perhaps more extreme more militant jihadi elements in his entourage I think he's made the
39:34
calculation that he can't get rid of them just yet Um but he will do when the time is right but
39:39
it's too soon for the time being he has to just weather the criticism and read the situation and
39:45
and then you know move them to into the sidelines you know when when he can do so And I think he's
39:53
he's steering um a very difficult path Yeah But I I honestly don't think um there's going
40:03
to be anyone else who can do it better I I'm not saying it's not going to be difficult Of course it will be difficult It will be very difficult And there'll be more setbacks like these sectarian
40:12
killings You know after everything that Syria has been through there are bound to be outbreaks of
40:18
sectarian killings There will be but I actually take the view that it's been suppressed um and
40:25
dealt with remarkably quickly and there will be uh they're trying their best to set up a form of
40:31
um transitional justice on all this They're short of manpower They need people to come back and help
40:37
them with all these processes And they they want that They they want help from from from Europe
40:42
from America from everywhere who's got expertise And above all from the Syrians who can come back
40:48
and help them to to rebuild the country to to put back this this sort of shredded society that's
40:55
um that's gone through so many terrible things But how popular is is he's incredibly popular I mean I
41:02
I spoke at length you know when I was there to to all my suran friends you know who are from a range of professions different levels of society they they all respect him and and and think he's he's a
41:14
he's a good thing they like the fact that he's an observant Muslim that's the other thing actually I
41:19
will say that um a lot of people have become more religious during the war in a way that's actually
41:26
quite normal you know same thing happened here in World War II the churches were full
41:32
People find you know need faith more when they're going through a difficult situation like war So
41:39
um a lot of people are are more religious Yeah In a way that I find you know there's nothing
Muslims and Christians
41:46
wrong with that There's nothing nothing extremist about that That's simply a normal human response
41:52
to to danger and to um to being in the midst of a war zone Yeah So so again I don't I don't I don't
42:01
feel that's that's an issue I mean after all Syria is at least 70% Sunni Muslim Yeah And um a lot of
42:10
a lot of the rest of the population is also Muslim but from different sects So um you know and again
42:17
the the Christians have become more religious So so um I was able to attend a couple of church
42:22
services while I was there I visited Sa Monastery on the way up to HS That was Palm Sunday It was
42:29
wonderful Um I've still got the ri the string attached to my wrist here that was put on it by
42:35
um the lady as I entered the church Uh she said this will this will keep the evil spirits away
42:42
and it will channel the positive energy through your left wrist You know so helped you in the
42:48
underground today These you know these are things which are shared with with Christians and Muslims
42:55
So I mean I was traveling with Muslim friends We all went into SA together We all went into the
43:02
church service They were welcome there That's fine You know they've they've always always been like that Um in HS we visited Omar Zanar church which was heavily damaged but has now been rebuilt and
43:14
restored There's a a a well with holy water that gives you extra baraka you know if you drink it
43:20
So you know we all drank it Christian and Muslim alike you know I mean that's what's the problem i mean it's a there's so many shared shared beliefs and and values This is what I what I always loved
43:32
about Syria this this blend where everybody accepts the other Let's talk about the cultural
43:38
sites of Syria I mean how intact how um uh damaged I suppose are these cultural sites since
43:45
um since December Bernie you know since the civil war um you know that's a particular interest of of
43:51
yours of course you went to Sedaya you went to the mosque Khaled bin wed mosque you know some
43:57
of these are very important cultural sites just give us a a picture of the state of these sites
44:03
at the moment yes well I I revisited all the cultural sites in in Damascus in in uh and of
44:10
course people don't uh often don't realize that old Damascus was not damaged at all in the war It
44:18
didn't suffer any bombing damage at all It was simp it was the suburbs of Damascus that were
44:24
pulverized by Assad and Putin's air force right um for for being rebellious but but the old city was
44:31
never bombed because it was never uh taken over by the terrorists as uh as I said always called them
44:38
Um so yes they're worn out these cultural sites but I I went to the mall Uh they're functioning
44:44
they're staffed they're selling tickets just the same as before Um they need they need a lick of
44:52
paint They need some attention Yeah Um but they're they're doing remarkably well The the Azam Palace
45:00
actually was particularly uh particularly good in that they they they've got staff there in all all
45:09
the areas of the of the different courtyards Um the gardens are beautifully maintained and being
45:16
watered So I mean there are pockets like that I think they must have started on that one because that is the most visited museum in the whole of Syria the Azam Palace which was the governor's
45:26
palace It is the a fabulous example of Ottoman architecture built in the in the mid 1700s It's
45:33
absolutely stunningly beautiful and they they've got excellent um explanatory panels outside each
45:40
room explaining you know exactly what each room was for what how it was used It's very very
45:47
well done It really is better than the British Museum which I've just come from So uh but yes so
45:55
uh all the sites there um the National Museum the Damascus National Museum is only partly open at
46:03
the moment Um only the Hellenistic areas are open They're still working on sections in the Islamic
46:10
um and the Bronze Age section about Mari All of that is is currently closed but I was assured it
46:16
will be opening in the coming weeks and it's clear that they're working on it Um the Dura
46:21
Europa Synagogue is still closed there That the reconstruction within the Damascus National Museum
46:27
that's still closed but again it it's intact It's not damaged Um and it will be reopened
46:33
um in in the coming in the coming months So uh I was very encouraged by this I mean it's not
46:39
going to take that much to clean these places up a little the the Museum of Epigraphy for example
46:47
um which is a much smaller museum just tucked behind the Amayad Mosque all its valuable Qurans
46:56
um are still in the basement of the Damascus National Museum for safekeeping They haven't
47:01
come back yet So it looks a bit of a mess You know the the sort of showcases are all a bit higgled piggledy and but but it's it's basically there and it's staffed by a very charming and helpful
47:12
lady Um and so um that that side of things is um is all is all working While I just remember can I
Banks in Syria
47:23
just mention about the banks because I' I've got two bank accounts in in in Syria Um one in Syrian
47:30
currency and one in foreign currency back from the days when I did my restoration And so I've
47:35
still got the little booklet you know because it all predated computerization Um so I thought right
47:42
I'm going to go into the Commercial Bank of Syria and with my little booklet and see whether they
47:48
can you know just get a sense of how everything's working in there and ask to see my account and
47:53
what's in it and everything So I went in there The building I can't begin to tell you is falling down
48:00
It's a the sign on the street is sort of dangling at an angle You know you're going into what looks
48:05
like a semi- ruined building instead of which this is the commercial bank of Syria opposite the
48:10
main courthouse bang in the center You know this ought to be [ __ ] and span but it's actually once
48:16
you're inside it's the same as it ever was A bit chaotic I went into the um the manager's office um
48:24
and it's being run by a lady in a hijab in front of a very efficient computer system I I came in
48:31
you know said hello and showed her my booklet and she she sort of looked with disdain at my booklet
48:37
and said "We don't use those anymore Give show me the number you know." So she looked up my account
48:43
number on her machine and and then turned the screen to me and said "Here's your account This is what this is the interest you've been earning They've been paying me 9% interest you know but
48:54
of course the Syrian pound has been crashing." So so what what um you know what what had been
49:01
worth I don't know $100 or something equivalent um all those years ago is now worth something like
49:08
uh $150 in spite of their 9% interest that they've been paying me Yeah So that that was reassuring to
49:16
know that again they're they're on top of it you know in spite of these decaying surroundings There they are with their computer system And I was in and out of there within 5 minutes I mentally I'd
49:26
set aside an hour for this process I thought well it's bound to take ages Then I went on to
49:31
um to the Bank of uh Syria and overseas um which is a much more [ __ ] and span more modern bank
49:39
you know for my dollar account Again I I went in I didn't even have a booklet for that I I never
49:47
opened anything proper there I just literally put some money in And so I said "Look I haven't got any evidence but this is my passport Can you find my account?" So again within no time
49:56
these extremely efficient um young women who were clearly Christian from the way they were dressed
50:02
you know in trousers and completely un unveiled Within 5 minutes they found my account printed
50:09
me off a sheet saying "Right here here's a record for you for future reference you know so that you
50:14
can come back anytime and you can put money into this account whenever you want." So it's all there
50:19
It's all functioning which again I found very reassuring Did you say earlier on that you've
Guidebook on Syria
50:25
written a a guide book on Syria Oh wow Okay And that's still available is he is it on Amazon or
50:31
it's it's you might find copies on Amazon still It was about to go into a third edition just when the
50:36
revolution broke out Any plans to update it oh yes The the the publishers want it to be updated Yes
50:42
Yes Um so I I will do that at some point you know in the coming year or two probably Can you give me
50:48
a flavor of I mean if if I plan to visit in the next month or two um where should I be visiting
50:55
what's what's what should be my itinerary if I may say well you going to stay just in Damascus or or or are you going to possibly venture out yeah Okay Um well if you're going to venture out
51:06
then I would definitely go to Save Na Monastery Um go up to HS and go across to Crackish Valley
51:13
the the Crusader Castle All all of that is is functioning and it will give you a sense of the changing landscapes as well in in Syria So that so that you get a a range of mountains
51:24
um bit of desert and and and and that also that you visit a complete a sort of more Christian area
51:31
so that you can just get a sense of of um you know whether you can see any differences for example
51:37
but obviously if you're only going for a week or so then really realistically you'll probably just
51:43
stay in Damascus and and all the main sites are within the old city which is a small area It's
51:49
a small area although you you walk a lot That's that's the beauty of Damascus It's it's it's flat
51:56
and and it's relatively um uh compact So you can walk everywhere within half an hour which is good
52:05
because you actually get quite fit as you walk around everywhere It's so much easier and nicer to just walk Um so you can walk from the old city Um I mean obviously the Amayad mosque is is in
52:17
uh is in the old city Yeah And um then you've got the Christian quarter You've got the Jewish
52:24
quarter so-called um which is where the Armenian churches are as well Um and then you've got the
52:31
old palaces B Nisam B Kati and B Si which have all been restored and the Azam Palace itself which is
52:40
obviously the most beautiful Ottoman palace just very long opening hours you know so you don't have
52:46
to worry about only being able to visit during a short window It's open from 9 until 6:00 you
52:51
know pretty much every day So very easy to to visit these places And and food is easy to find
52:59
everywhere Everywhere is always open There is no no sort of oh you can only get lunch between
53:06
1 and 2:00 like it's like in France you know where everything shuts uh otherwise But but so
53:12
everything is very easy It's such an easy place to visit and to be because there's no sense of
53:17
uh uh you know things being restricted as I said people people just life just flows and people are
53:27
are very free um you know to do what they want when they feel like it So I mean the family who
53:35
living in my house I mean the the their children leave the house at 7:00 in the morning to go to
53:41
school to catch a bus to go to school They're back by about sort of um 4:00 or something Yeah
53:47
While I was there we we um you know they insisted on taking me out a couple of times to a different
53:53
part of town so way out of the old city because for them because they live in the old city for them it's a treat to go out of the old city Yeah And uh and so that you then go to different parts
54:04
of of uh of Damascus like Kafir Susa for example which is a modern bit of of of Damascus where
54:11
there are couple of shopping malls and where you you almost get a sense of a sort of slight Dubai
54:17
type kind of feel with ice cream parlor These places are packed and busy you know So so I I I
54:25
was amazed to see how how um how varied you know life is and and and uh people have leed to enjoy
54:34
themselves I mean that's the other thing in in in war Yeah You you don't know what's coming tomorrow
54:39
So you make the most of now and and while you can and and you you get that sense of sort of
54:45
acceptance and sort of just joy to be alive really which here you know in this country you just sort
54:53
of take that for granted you know nobody thinks like that So one final question for you Dian I mean this has been fascinating It's really um it it seems like the country is is full of hope
How to help Syria?
55:03
and the people you meet and and the interactions you've had it's you know of course they've been through a horrid decade in a bit but but there is there's hope therein amongst ordinary Syrians Um
55:15
so I suppose from from our perspective how can we help Syria you know of course uh many Muslims in
55:24
his country give uh generously in charity and you know you've just suggested there that uh maybe uh
55:31
less is going to Syria and I think that's a that's a very um that's something that we need to be very
55:36
concerned about But beyond charity how can we help the country well um there are many ways I I think
55:44
I mean beyond the actual charity giving I again I would encourage people who perhaps used to give
55:49
money to Syria but have stopped doing so I would I would encourage them to continue to give right um
55:55
because it's very much needed You know nothing has miraculously got better overnight Um but then um
56:03
there are um uh uh there are just just giving the country a chance and and giving it a more positive
56:12
image actually and and um emphasizing the positive and not not always sort of jumping on the negative
56:24
aspects because uh I I think that's been unfair as I mentioned you know with Aframe Mashara himself
56:30
uh I think uh he's somebody who only looks forwards Yes he's had a difficult and complicated
56:36
past He he would be the first to admit that but but he's not interested That that that's happened That's that's finished You know now the important thing is the future and how to navigate it And
56:46
and this is what everybody needs to be focusing on And and um the Syrians I meet and talk to are are
56:55
very much of that mindset And it's my observation that Syrians are very um creative and innovative
57:07
people partly because of geographically where where Syria is that it's always been on this
57:12
crossroads of civilization So it's always been multicultural in that way and and a multicultural
57:18
environment is what stimulates new ideas you know different people coming in from all over all over
57:24
different parts of the world bringing their own knowledge and expertise and exchanging it with other people That that's how you get innovation And so Syrians are very innovative I'm always
57:36
astonished at how techsavvy they are Way better than I am you know you really they they've got the
57:42
latest of everything and and are right on the cut cutting edge of all the new developments and want
57:48
to be part of a new future So um for people who've never been to Syria they they're skeptical about
57:55
this They think "Oh that can't possibly be right." Anybody who's been there and experienced it for themselves knows that that's basically true And so they deserve a much better press than they get
58:09
and foreign investment And now that sanctions have been lifted hopefully there'll be um there'd be a
58:15
lot of investment opportunities I suppose for for for people in the new Yes Yes If I had any
58:21
money to spare yes I would invest it there like a shot I really I really would I mean I mean you
58:27
know I I invested a lot of money in my house um all those years ago but it was never about money
58:33
and making money at all for me I mean it was it was a it was a it was a conscious act you
58:39
know to save a chunk of Syria's cultural heritage And that house has been so useful during during
58:47
this period of the war You know it served as a refuge to so many different families So I'm so
58:52
pleased at the fact that against all the advice I bought it persevered with it fought for it kept it
59:00
you know got it back from the people who tried to steal it from me and that it's still there
59:06
Still there and it's still acting as as a as a refuge and I hope we'll we'll continue to do so
59:11
Dad this has been a really uplifting conversation Thank you so much for your time today Thank you
59:20
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