Ep 251. - Centuries Ahead: Islam’s Mental Health Revolution with Dr Rania Awaad
How can we manage life’s hardships and pain, and does our modern way of living explain why so many people find themselves in therapy today? Dr Rania Awaad is the Co-Founder and President of Maristan and a Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Stanford University. She draws on both Islamic tradition and medical science to revive a legacy of holistic healing in which the psyche is understood through the ruh, qalb and nafs, offering a spiritually grounded alternative to Western approaches that often pathologise struggle while overlooking faith and growth.
You can find Dr Rania Awaad here:
X: https://x.com/drraniaawaad
IG: https://www.instagram.com/dr.raniaawaad
Maristan Project: https://maristan.org/
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Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-thinking-muslim/id1471798762
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Transcript- This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
The modern psychiatric system is a fragmented and broken system. Muslims were the first to
0:05
bring medicalized psychiatric treatment into their hospital systems. These were institutions of healing that were the center of town. The fountains that were in these mistans, every one of
0:15
them is trademarked because it was purposeful. You start with the Quran and the Sunnah and then you build the psychology up. How do we manage life's hardships and does our way of living explain why
0:25
so many of us are in therapy? Dr. Arrania Aad is a clinical professor of psychiatry at Stanford
0:32
University School of Medicine where she is the director of Stanford Muslim mental health and
0:38
Islamic psychology that's uh experienced a death recently. And then I spoke to a brother from Gaza
0:44
who said 82 members of his family had passed away in the last 6 months or so. You know how
0:50
does one process that level of trauma? They have this word called a kind of resilience of knowing
0:57
and understanding why I was created. You look at the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam who
1:03
experienced death and loss in his life. He says the eyes will shed tears. The heart will feel
1:08
sorrow if you do not treat the soul. All you're really doing is symptom reduction. We are here at
1:16
the uh Koala Lumpa Prophetic Strategy Summit and uh I'm honored really to have our guest today Dr.
1:23
Rana Aad psychiatrist who's joining us uh today uh to discuss Islamic psychiatry and psychology.
1:31
Dr. Rana Aadalam allaykumah and welcome to the thinking Muslim. My pleasure to be here. Well,
1:38
I'm really interested in today's conversation. And we've had a couple of conversations now about psychology and psychiatry on our podcast and we've looked at the Islamic paradigm,
1:48
the Maristan model. Uh we've looked at some of the critiques of modern psychiatry and psychology.
1:56
Uh but I know you've done you've really put together some extensive work. You've got a book, a number of books on uh the Maristan model, the Islamic psychology paradigm, uh some critiques
2:07
of of modern psychology and psychiatry. So I want to explore all of that today and and and try to
2:14
understand uh really what Islam has to offer or what Muslims can offer. Uh what some would
2:20
describe a a modern world which is pretty ill. uh in a modern world that that's suffering um uh with
2:27
with an epidemic of mental illness. I don't know if that's a an exaggeration or not. Um so let's
2:34
really start with some very basic questions here. Um is it possible to treat the psyche without
Soul and psyche
2:41
treating the soul? Wonderful. No, it is not possible from an Islamic psychology point of view.
2:49
And the reason I say that is because if you look at what makes up the human psyche, the soul is a
2:56
core component. If you do not treat the soul, all you're really doing is symptom reduction. You're
3:02
treating the surface level, maybe cognition, maybe behavior. That's really about it,
3:08
which is so much of what modern psychology and psychiatry does today. But it doesn't really
3:13
treat the person from the inside out. it doesn't really treat them fully in an Islamic psychology
3:19
discussion. We would say aligning them back to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala back to their state.
3:24
You cannot do so without treating the which is the soul. Right? Okay. So let's let's try to unpack
Psyche in Islam
3:30
that and and work out what those different terms mean. I mean psy the psyche. What is the psyche
3:36
according to the Islamic paradigm? Yes, there are many people who've been writing recently about
3:43
Islamic psychology and what is the human psyche, what are the components that make that up. Um,
3:49
my colleagues and I that have written some of this uh work together, we've largely taken this from the works of Imam and Gazali. He has a wonderful model of explaining the human psyche.
3:58
Others have contributed as well. And in most of these models, particularly the Gazalian model, the or the heart, but not the heart that beats in one's chest, but rather the metaphysical heart,
4:08
right, is at the core of this model. And if you imagine birectional arrows connecting one thing
4:14
to another connected to that, the metaphysical heart is the the soul. Also, the nef which some
4:22
people have defined as the self, but really I prefer behavioral inclinations, the behavior. From
4:29
there you also have an attachment to the body the an attachment to theas or the emotions and which
4:38
is the cognition. All of these are interconnected. So you think of an interconnected model and all of
4:43
which have to be looked at and treated when one is ill. Okay. That's interesting. So there's an
Death and trauma
4:48
interplay between a number of metaphysical yes ideas here or or um assets that the human being
4:55
holds. uh when and so when someone like you you know someone trained in in understanding
5:01
the human being and treating the human being comprehensively um you would be looking at the
5:07
interplay between between those. It's like let's just think about that in practice. You know,
5:12
someone I don't know uh um experiences a trauma, a death, you know, someone dies in their family
5:19
um and they feel the pain of of that trauma. Um how would Islamic psychology or psychiatry deal
5:28
with that from utilizing those terms that you've you've just outlined? Right. Yes. We understand
5:34
a trauma to be something that is an event that then causes a person intense emotion whatever it
5:41
may be. In this example, you gave the example of death which is hard for many people. Loss
5:46
is hard. There's grief. Um and there are stages that happen with this grief. We understand this
5:51
in the modern psychology sense but definitely also from an Islamic psychology paradigm. Yeah.
5:56
What's different is that you would pull in the discussions really coming directly from the core sources that we take. We take everything that's empirical meaning scientific evidence and research
6:07
that we've done. We take the rational discussions as well logically what does this all mean?
6:13
But what really differs here is the uh revelatory sciences meaning for us the Quran and the sunnah
6:19
right you look at the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam who experienced death and loss in his life and grief in his life and you see that there is layers of healing that happen right from the
6:31
Islamic psychology paradigm you would say well what he says as his young son infant son Ibraim
6:39
is dying in his lap is powerful and it kind of sets the stage of how we would treat something like this in Islamic psychology. He says the eyes will shed tears, the heart will feel sorrow. Both
6:50
of these he normalizes. This is absolutely normative human behavior. Right? And it's not bad. Not at all. Not even for a man and not even for a m a believer. Yes. But then he also says,
7:03
but we do not say other than that pleases Allah subhana wa ta'ala. Meaning we don't push on the of
7:08
what the fate Allah has given us. The combination of these three things are very important. You may
7:14
cry and this is an emotional emotive experience that you then uh from internally emotionally
7:21
comes out. There's a psychossematic expression as we explain this to be there is a emotional
7:29
expression in terms of the pain in the heart that's felt. There is loss. There's grief. But we also as believers know that Allah subhana t has determined our lives, determined the life
7:38
of the person who's passed now. And we make dua and pray for them. But we don't shame or
7:44
suppress anyone's emotions that are grieving. Right? So what's the role of the mind in that process? because the latter part of your of that processing of that healing is sort of to recognize
Rationality
7:56
um Allah subhana wa ta'ala has set a lifespan and to understand that Allahh will reunite you in
8:03
Jenna and to have the so am I am I oversimplifying it when I'm when I said when I think that uh the
8:11
rational the rational solution or way that the rationality interacts with these emotional sides
8:19
is actually quite key to healing. Not at all. I think it's important to understand that they are all again the model of interplaying. All of these different aspects are interplaying. Right? When we
8:30
think about healing, this is important because I mentioned now grief. Yes. Different than trauma.
8:36
Trauma is a more complex uh condition. Yeah. in which a person is often triggered by the
8:42
very things that have happened and incidents happen but as time has gone on they continue to be feeling the triggers that can that hurt them yes again and again grief is not this way it lasts
8:54
for a period of time it eventually diminishes different processes right okay so let's can I
Trauma
9:00
ask about trauma because of course everyone today seems to have a trauma and um again maybe this is
9:06
an oversimplification but modern psychology ology tends to focus in on I don't know Freudian sort of
9:12
ideas that we need to uh reset our or recalibrate our our present by looking back at those traumas.
9:20
So a lot of our uh our uh present lives and and maybe the malfunction in our present lives
9:28
uh owe a lot to historical traumas. Is that basic paradigm correct from an Islamic perspective? Um,
9:36
if I may rephrase, um, please, the modern field still is affected, if you will, the modern field
9:44
of psychology is still affected by by Freud. Yes. But he's largely debunked at this point. Um, most
9:51
modern psychologists really don't even consider his theories and concepts to be reality. It's
9:57
been debunked over and over again. Um I would say though um the first part of the discussion around
10:03
trauma and people really holding on to this you know somehow this is um these everything becoming
10:09
a trauma in their life is also incorrect. It's not quite the way trauma works either. Um and this is
10:17
very important that we do not belittle people that have actually gone through real trauma. Um and
10:22
it continues to trigger them and affect them in their life. Often when people don't process their
10:27
trauma, go through the steps of healing and they push it under the surface, what ends up happening
10:32
inadvertently is that as time goes on, out of the blue, it comes back up in the most unexpected
10:38
times. And they feel that wave of um as though they were reliving that very moment again. And
10:44
that's these are all signs of not being treated or healed. So if that's not happening to people
10:50
that in in their traumas, then it's probably not actually defined as a trauma, but maybe some difficulty they've gone through, right? So okay, so we're we're separating real traumas that
11:01
people face, you know, war, famine, abuse. These are real traumas that people face often in their
11:09
early lives from um maybe more superficial is the wrong word but but uh areas of life that are that
11:17
are difficult and challenging and you in your field you would want to separate these two out.
11:23
Is that right? That's yes it would be important to do so. In fact, in in in therapeutic processes,
11:29
we do this very often, right? What actually is a complex trauma that requires more than just talk
11:36
therapy and what is something that is um some that a trauma or what somebody might think is
11:43
a trauma, but it's perhaps not as complex and may actually benefit from the work related to trauma
11:49
in therapy. It's very useful and it could be something that we don't have to keep revisiting.
11:55
Whereas complex trauma often lingers for a good bit of time, right? So how does one treat complex
12:01
trauma? Usually it's a combination. We usually the gold standard in the field is we say that there needs and by the way it will come to this I'm sure but this matches actually what Islamic
12:10
psychology says as well. Okay. Um, and I say that because what I'll say next, people might think
12:15
I'm just speaking as a psychiatrist, but actually matches the work of Islamic psychology in that um,
12:20
there's usually a combination related to the talk therapies and medication. Right? And the reason
12:26
for that is sometimes it is too overwhelming in order to even deal with therapy to even
12:32
have a conversation like this about the very thing a person is re-triggered, is reliving.
12:38
um they cannot actually calm those you know the sympathetic and parasympathetic
12:43
systems down without the help of medication. M it's unfortunate but it's also the reality
12:49
of some people right so so can we entertain the conversation about med medication and the role
Over-medicalisation
12:56
of medication because of course there are some in our community that argue that medication is
13:01
should never be used and we have enough within Quran and sunnah to deal with any form of mental
13:10
illness that we face uh but at the same time we do see studies and and conversations in modern
13:17
society, non-Muslims who talk about this quite readily, that we're overmedicalizing u mental
13:23
health. So where do you stand on on sort of the use of medication? Yes, there's I believe either
13:29
extreme is problematic, right? And the reason I say that is because it's not in line with our sunnah. If you look even directly to the prophet, I'll start there. Sallallahu alaihi wasallam,
13:39
he's asked very directly around treatment when one is ill. This is a question that happens in
13:46
his lifetime and he um responds very beautifully. Badawin came to him and said Allah shall shall I
13:53
seek out treatments if I were to be ill. Right? And embedded in this question you can imagine
14:00
because the prophet is not a physician. Why is this person asking him this question? Embedded
14:05
in it you might think it maybe he's asking to say is it enough to just pray? Is it enough to
14:11
just have iman? Is it enough to you know will this away and be strong enough myself? But the prophet
14:17
sallallahu alaihi wasallam answers the question. He says yes. And then he talks to all of us. He
14:23
says, "Oh servants of Allah, seek out treatments." For Allah subhana t does not send down an illness
14:32
unless he sends down a treatment or in some narrations it reads a cure. That's powerful
14:38
because it's a direct answer to a question we're all asking. Do I just pray this away? Shall I have
14:43
enough? And you hear people say this every time in the Arab world I turn on something and I hear
14:48
somebody saying I'll translate. A believer is not afflicted with depression. And I think to myself,
14:57
how far are we from the sun of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and from scientific understandings? This is very shortsighted to think this way and it's not in line with our tradition
15:06
either. Right. So you've talked about depression there. Yeah. because I hear this a lot. Um, uh,
Depression
15:13
you know, imams sometimes say this that if you're a believer, as you just said there, if you're a believer, uh, then there's nothing to be depressed about. Even if you have the most acute form of of
15:23
trauma in your lives, uh, there is a way to, uh, to address that uh, within an Islamic context. Uh
15:32
but depression is is a real thing in your eyes and and something that Islamic psychology has treated
15:40
in the past. Absolutely. Right. The example I'll give here to make it for anybody who may be
15:45
listening watching and think that this may maybe whether they think of themselves as a naysayer
15:50
or not. I think if we just look at a scientific perspective of this we understand depression and
15:56
many mental illnesses are actually multiffactorial meaning there are multiple reasons and causes as
16:01
to why they may happen. When you look at and when you take it just from a spiritual perspective,
16:07
you're pigeonholing just one aspect of why that depression, let's say, may have happened.
16:13
It could be a spiritual crisis, an existential crisis perhaps, but it could also be biological,
16:19
hormonal, genetic, environmental. Are we excluding scientifically speaking now as people who have
16:25
studied science and understand the modern uh world in this way, are we excluding genetics?
16:30
Are we excluding hormones? So when a woman goes through postpartum depression, one in five women
16:36
have this happen. It is not a fault of her own. Nor is it that she's weak or it doesn't have good
16:41
iman or she is un feeling unworth unworthy of this this new blessing Allah has given her as a child
16:48
when the vast majority scientifically speaking of postpartum depression is actually hormonal. Right.
16:54
It's a sharp and stark cr uh crash of the hormones not in our hands. Yeah. When you look at it and
17:01
you we say to her, "Shame on you, you shouldn't be depressed. Have eman, go pray." What are we saying
17:07
to her when it's not a spiritual crisis and it's a hormonal issue that needs actual treatments, right? Yeah. I think that I think that's really really interesting. So those treatments can
Therapy
17:17
often lead to therapy and we know that in in modern life in western societies and in eastern
17:24
societies therapy is is a very big thing and and and people often spend their entire lives or a
17:30
large part of their lives in therapy. Now I want to understand just the idea of therapy and and
17:35
from your side like where does it fit in from an Islamic paradigm where does it fit in and whether
17:41
the idea of having therapy for life whether that indicates that um uh therapy is failing
17:50
uh or does that indicate is that just the the normality of of modern life you just Oh this is
17:56
a an extreme as well really absolutely we define therapy as a period of time in which a person
18:04
receives assistance, right? Tools, techniques to figure out how it is that they can help themselves
18:10
through the issues that they're going through. We think about it as for whatever reason most
18:17
people don't have all the tools they need in their toolbox. Maybe their parents didn't have those tools themselves to give them, right? Maybe they went through war and experienced starvation,
18:28
famine, something in which again the tools were not in the toolbox. that happen suddenly. Yeah. So you build tools and techniques. You add tools to this toolbox. And the best form of therapy we
18:38
say it's successful when the person can then use those tools and techniques to become their own
18:44
therapist. Yeah. They should not be in therapy for life unless another issue happens in life. Maybe
18:50
they went through therapy because of some car accident that happened. They kept reliving that uh
18:56
trauma for example and they needed therapy through that. They got through that issue. Later in life, they end up having a crisis in their marriage. So they need marriage therapy. There's no issue in
19:06
having multiple modalities of therapy over time. But it's not one therapist and one therapy for
19:12
life. This is not the definition of therapy. This is exploitation of the system. It's exploitation
19:18
of a system. Yes. From the therapist side and from the patient who is not learning the real tools to then help themselves. Right. So we should all possess the tools to deal with our own mental
Mental health crisis
19:29
health. And if we don't possess those tools, what we can't naturally possess those tools, we we will find others to help us to acquire those tools so that we can deal with our lives. Um okay,
19:40
that that's interesting. So um uh often I think about um uh a society where everyone is
19:49
identifying with their mental health and we're pathizing very basic sort of
19:56
uh human challenges to talk to that for me. I mean you know there is this sort of idea that everyone
20:03
seems to have a mental health crisis at the moment and and again I I I used to teach young adults and
20:09
I would find that very much. I mean, especially over the last 15 years, the the number of young
20:15
adults who are now in treatment or in therapy uh has has grown exponentially. I mean, explain that
20:23
and the problem with that for me, please. I'd like to separate those two things. Um, on one hand,
20:29
we just went through a global pandemic. The rates of mental health c rates of mental health issues
20:35
have gone exponentially higher than they used to be. And there was definitely um a what I
20:42
call the ripping off of the lid of something that had probably been festering for a very long time,
20:47
especially in communities in which mental health had been stigmatized. The depression, anxiety,
20:54
attention issues probably were all there to begin with, but it was not identified or permitted maybe
21:00
to go and seek that help or to even say I have a condition such as and name what it is. Yeah. On
21:07
one hand, there's a relief from mental health providers, clinicians to say, "Alhamdulillah,
21:12
we finally have gotten to a point where people are able and willing to say,"Yes, I think I'm dealing with something more than just grief. It may be depression. Let me get that actual professional
21:21
care and assistance." Yeah. And not just talk to my friends and family who are not clinicians, right? On the other hand, you're right. There is a concern about everybody saying,
21:29
"I have this and I have this," and starting to make it part of their identity. Why would
21:34
depression or anxiety be part of your identity? It's a condition you have in which we are then treating. Is that right? Yeah. It's a it's problematic. You're seeing this happen with young
21:45
people in all different kinds of things. Part of it is a phase that they may grow out of and part
21:50
of it too is a lack of really understanding the condition and what it means. A person isn't meant
21:56
to have depression for the entirety of their life in every moment. They may have a chronic condition. Yeah. But it's something that we hope to treat and bring them to a place of healing.
22:05
Right. Fantastic. Okay. Is there a problem with the way we live? Is capitalism harming our mental
22:14
health? Uh for sure. Really? Absolutely. any I believe that anything that's not in line with
22:20
the way Allah subhana ta created us and intended for us to live and gave us the guidelines in our
22:26
Quran and sunnah will absolutely cause a person to their heart their mind their self to be to go
22:32
haywire capitalism was not intended you know to be a way of life as it is the chasing of the dunya is
22:39
exactly the opposite of how we are actually meant to live our lives so how are we meant to live our lives paint a picture of I don't know a Muslim who lives in New York. I was in New York recently and
How to balance your life?
22:50
it's it's a it's you know it's a a feverish city. There's a lot going on and uh it's sort of the hub
22:57
of capitalism. So a Muslim lives in that city and sort of acquires uh these traits of chasing the
23:03
dunya. How does one release themselves from from the rat race and and have a balanced life such
23:10
that their mental health remains in equilibrium? Yes, it's true. Or you can do what my parents did
23:15
who instead of raising us in New York, they both worked in New York. Yeah. Um raised us across
23:20
the way in New Jersey so that we had a little bit of relief from the rat race and greenery and yes
23:27
backyards. Yes. Um but it's but I have to also say for somebody who's actually listening to this in
23:34
New York or in any I'm from San Francisco. When you're in a major city, it's um you absolutely
23:41
can take pause. You absolutely can decide to live your life in a way that's not part of the rat race. You may still be going up the ladder in your career, figuring out your education,
23:51
um, gaining and earning material things. None of these things are against the rules of Islam or the
23:57
way of living our life according to the way Allahh intended. However, it's the we say this because
24:02
it's not about what's in your hand, but rather what's in your heart. And if the dunya literally
24:07
and the race of it all is in the heart, then we see people actually are uh it's maladaptive to
24:13
the way Allahh meant for us to live this life right yeah okay so that that's interesting so acquiring wealth in itself isn't a problem isn't a problem um it's how you balance out your life with
24:23
other things with salah with community and what you do with this wealth right where do you put it how do you invest it is it endowed in some way that can then be your ongoing legacy and charity
24:35
after you've left the is giving charity good for your mental health absolutely really because in so
24:41
many levels. On a spiritual level, it's literally, we know, to be the erasing of sins, the expeation
24:46
of sins. Yeah. The people of old would say, "What would I have done with my sins had I not been able
24:51
to find someone to give my charity to?" Really, of course, it's a a lifting. And when you lift that
24:57
on a spiritual level, all the burdens spiritually, you elevate yourself also. Yeah. Emotionally and
25:02
mentally. Can I ask you about the the people of Gaza? Um, it's traumatic what we see. I mean,
Gazans
25:08
we feel the trauma, but of course, these these um uh Palestinians are feeling trauma every day and
25:14
and they they've there is a I I I presume there is this idea of collective trauma. There is sort
25:19
of you know I I uh experienced a death recently and then I spoke to a brother from Gaza who said
25:26
82 members of his family had passed away in the last six months or so. Yeah. Uh you know how does
25:32
one process that level of trauma us or them? Sorry. Us. Oh, yes. Uh or the lessons? Both.
25:43
Yeah. We have so much to learn from the lessons. Yeah. I have learned so much in these last few
25:50
years. Yeah. Because every time you feel like I cannot take this anymore. This is too much. This is too overwhelming. And it is. And it is. It's horrific. Beyond even words can explain.
26:02
Yes. You see a cousin or speak to one and they have this yes it's immense pain for them too. Of
26:10
course they're only human as we are. But there's something in the they have this word called a kind
26:18
of resilience of knowing and understanding why I was created. Yeah. I'm here for a purpose. I know
26:26
where I'm going. And so I don't fear death. Yeah. As they mo many of them will tell you. But this
26:31
purpose that I'm here for allows me to continue pushing forward even after I've been pulled out
26:37
of the rubble as I've met psychologists recently. Yeah. Pulled out of the rubble twice. Twice. All
26:43
members of the family have died. Wow. And she was crying not because everyone died but because she
26:52
wondered what she didn't do to take to be given martyrdom as well. What is this mindset? Yeah. I
26:59
can't recreate this mindset. Yes, it's something incredibly powerful and we have so much to learn
Building resilience
27:04
from. So that brings me to the idea of resilience. I mean we all want to be resilient and um actually
27:11
there's two two parts to this question. Are some people hardwired to be less resilient than others?
27:18
And how do we develop resilience in ourselves? We take step by step, right? H sometimes we're so
27:26
um we take leaps and then we crash and we fail. Resilience is something in which you wake up
27:32
every day and you push yourself a little bit further, right? It also requires a certain level
27:38
of mentorship, a certain amount of um helping you with the checks and balances system. For so many
27:45
people that doesn't even exist really. uh the idea of mentorship, spiritual mentorship, the idea of
27:52
even I would say a coach, somebody who's able to you think of an athlete, a world start athlete,
27:57
right? Olympian. And I always say this, every Olympian we know, every gold medalist we know
28:03
has a coach. Yeah. Even if that coach themselves doesn't hold a gold medal, but they have a coach because why else would they get up at 5:00 in the morning to train and continue training four
28:13
years for a 10-second race? It's the same thing spiritually, but many of us don't quite understand
28:20
it that way. Yeah. So, we need mentors. We need people. How important is it for a Muslim to have
28:27
for this mentor to be a Muslim? And this generally in the sort of therapy field, how important is it
28:33
for therapists to share your religious beliefs? Very important. I was once part of a a a clinic
28:40
that focuses on Muslim mental health specifically. Yeah. And on intake they would ask everybody um
28:46
a few questions four questions in particular but one of them was this question exactly what's the
28:52
likelihood that you would have come to therapy right mental health care had your therapist not
28:58
been Muslim the answer was between somewhat agree and fully agree it was over 90%. Yeah, which is
29:07
powerful. Which means that you have all of these Muslims that have come forward. They actually are patients in that clinic. They would not have come forward had there not been that same background
29:17
and understanding. Right. Okay. Um, so let's let's move on to because it it just seems to me
Maristan model
29:24
after looking at reading some of your papers and and you've obviously you've written most recently
29:29
a book about the Maristan idea. It seemed to me that you're not just uh proposing that Islamic
29:37
psychology is an add-on to what we have already. You're you're calling for a comprehensive,
29:44
you know, reook. You're looking under the hood. You're looking at, you know, rewiring
29:49
uh how psychologists and psychiatrists look at human beings. Like explain that to me that there
29:56
is a model a system you're trying to develop here. um explain the sort of the the extent to which you
30:04
you and other psychologists aspire to change and rewire uh this system. Absolutely. I this many
30:13
people have tried to explain or define Islamic psychology in in different ways and they said it
30:19
could be this and could be this. I don't agree. I actually believe that there is a clear paradigm in
30:25
which we build Islamic psychology from the bottom up. You start with the Quran and the Sunnah and
30:31
then you build the psychology up, right? As opposed to what we call the top down approach, which is you take whatever is already in the field of psychology and you Islamicize it,
30:40
right? You add and sprinkle a little Quran here, a little hadith here, you make it Arabize the words a little bit. Yes. Yeah. Not useful, right? Maybe there's some use for some people,
30:51
but this is not actually the way I define and many of my colleagues define Islamic psychology, which is a much more complicated situation here where you're literally building a new science.
31:01
It's actually not fully new. It's a revival of a science we've had traditionally. But it's been in
31:07
the dust of time, lost in the dust of time at this point. Yeah. And so many of us are doing a revival
31:13
at this point and building or rebuilding from the bottom up an entire field of Islamic psychology.
31:20
It it looks very different actually from modern western psychology. Yeah. There are some elements
31:25
that are recognizable again cognition behavior. But when you think about the whole point of this
31:31
is to realign you back to your fitra that primordial essence that Allah has created you in and also realign you back to what is your purpose here in this world in this duny and we
31:42
all know from the the verse in the Quran that it's none other than to worship Allah subhana
31:47
wa tala not merely on the prayer rug but worship in all of the facets of our life so that our dunya
31:54
is meant to actually have a purpose in this way and it leads to an that is Jenna. That is Islamic
32:01
psychology. If it's not doing that, I don't define it as Islamic psychology. Wow. Okay. So then does
Islamic psychology for all
32:08
that mean that Islamic psychology is exclusively just for Muslims? Absolutely not. Right. Islamic
32:13
psychology is for all. Here's why. Yeah. The essence, as we talked about, the model of the
32:19
human psyche is the soul, the self, the heart, the mind, and the emotions. All humans possess this.
32:27
If I'm speaking to you and hoping to realign you to your futra, your primordial essence, your soul,
32:33
as long as you have a soul, Islamic psychology works. I may not use the same Arabic terminology
32:39
or terminology that sounds foreign to someone, but the essence of it is recognizable to all human
32:44
beings. Yeah. So, those of us who have been in the field for some time will tell you, and I have both Muslim and non-Muslim patients at Stanford University, us, I do Islamic psychology with
32:53
everyone because it's the core principles Right. Um your most recent book looks at the Marisan
33:00
model, this historical model of treating um uh the mentally ill. Just expl you know give us a picture
Maristan project
33:09
of the contours of this system, please. This is something I'm very excited about. Mashallah. Um
33:15
let me back up a few steps and explain how we got here. Yeah. Um my work initially had been
33:21
looking at I was to be very honest in my personal story here that I've shared you know on some uh
33:27
discussions before is that I was very suspicious of this field. I had no intention to come into psychiatry very much an accidental psychiatrist if you will. Yeah. Um very last minute came into
33:37
the field and because of that suspicion I spent a lot of time actually looking at the origins and
33:43
understanding what the early Muslim predecessors and scholars had written about this topic. I was
33:48
trained in Sharia originally had the ability to read the early texts went back to the early texts. A lot of my early publications are actually on figures such as Abu Zali Arazzi others really
34:00
giving them credit back that have been taken away from them or had been misappropriated
34:06
um and actually saying no these are actually the pioneers of the field that's usually written from a euroentric lens that leaves out the Muslims and looks at things from a very behavioralist point
34:17
of view. Right. In the process of doing so then discovered these great individuals Razi and others
34:24
did not work in silos. They worked in institutions institutions of healing. The early Muslims didn't
34:30
call their hospitals hospitals. They called them bimistan where in fari the which is the original
34:38
word here is the place where one goes when they're ill in Arabic difa which is the uh center or house
34:46
or abode of healing healing centers. Yeah I was really inspired by this concept and felt um as
34:54
I looked around me to everybody around me nobody seemed to know anything about this. I would say did you know about this? Yeah. Did you know that the early Muslims were the first, not the first
35:02
to create hospitals cuz all civilizations had some form of hospital, but they were the first to bring medicalized psychiatric mental health care into their hospital systems side by side
35:14
with all the other types of medical treatment, surgery, obstetrics, pediatrics, opthalmology,
35:20
psychiatry. This doesn't happen to our research and our knowledge and the work we've done in you
35:25
know writing this book. It doesn't happen before the Muslims, right? So then the question became
35:31
why? Yeah. Why were the Muslims why were they the first to do this? And it goes back to it. If you look at the writings of the early greats, it goes back to the very hadith that I had quoted before.
35:42
Allah doesn't send on an illness unless he sends on a treatment. They keep quoting this which meant they were compelled that if they saw conditions whether they be physical or mental health and
35:52
they did not discriminate between them. If they saw such conditions in the society around them,
35:57
Yeah. they were compelled to find treatments for them. Yeah. And they brought them into their healing centers. This is what inspired me in this way to say this must be revived. We must
36:09
bring this back. The modern psychiatric system is a fragmented and broken system. Right? I say
36:15
this as a practicing psychiatrist. Um, and it requires being able to bring back all aspects
36:23
of healing once again, mind, body, soul, right? Inside to out, outside to in. How will you do so
36:29
unless you have healing centers that are focused on all aspects of your healing? Truly. Yeah. So
36:37
if I lived in in medieval Islamic society where I had to enter uh for treatment for healing one
Bimaristan
36:46
of his bimarist stans what would I experience in a traditional Islamic society first of all you would
36:54
find them in the center of town right this is has its own beautiful reasoning as well for example in
36:59
Damascus the very door of the old city of Damascus is the door of the padistan and the reason for
37:05
this is in old city and if you think about getting from point A to point B, you must cross the center
37:11
of town. The sunnah of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is that you visit the sick,
37:16
you visit the ill. They must be accessible for you to fulfill the sunnah. Yeah, it's a communal
37:22
sunnah. And so when you think about it, these are not institutions that are asylums the way
37:28
we understood them to be in Europe or even now in modern sense at all. These were institutions of
37:33
healing that were the center of town and they were beautiful. Islamic architecture is incredible not
37:40
just because of its beauty and its geometric balance and things but there is a spiritual significance to everything that was designed architecturally. Yeah. Uh one of our mentors
37:50
and who actually wrote uh in the book here um uh Dr. Mustafi has an excellent book on the spiritual
37:59
significance of Islamic architecture. Every arch, every dome, every color that was used had a
38:05
spiritual significance for healing. This is a lost science that is almost never spoken about today.
38:11
I'm not interested in a regular building with four walls and a pretty coloring to it. No, it itself
38:16
has to have a spiritual element of healing. You walk in, the trademark are the fountains. Every
38:23
one of the Mastans had, and I I use the word Mastan because it's a Latiniz shortened word of beadan, right? Used in the Latin sense. So that's how we say it in English. Um and the
38:34
fountains that were in these mastans, every one of them, this trademark because it was purposeful. It
38:40
was beautiful. But the sound of water is healing. The use of hydrotherapy, water therapy is part of
38:46
the treatment. The greenery that's there, meaning the natural elements that are in the space too is
38:51
very important. I train at one of the world's premier hospitals, Stanford Hospital. Yet you
38:57
walk into Stanford Hospital or any hospital, it's jarring. Yeah. White walls, bright lights, beeping
39:04
sounds. Right. Even as the physician in the space, I'm anxious, right? Let alone the patient. These
39:10
institutions incorporated beauty, sound, color, smell, aroma therapy. the idea of the science of
39:18
the color, the sounds of this, the sounds that were brought in, nature sounds, Quran, adan, but
39:24
also the makamat, which we have several papers on this topic of, you know, giving Muslims back the
39:29
credit of what now you would call music therapy. I know people have issue with this. Let's call it sound therapy. But what they did is they took the science of the Greeks and they repurposed it. They
39:41
got rid of the elements of entertainment that were not useful but they used the science of theat the
39:47
tones and they developed and this is Farab's work where he took this the tones and he said these
39:52
tones when played will calm down an anxious person but when you play these tones they elevate the
39:58
depressed person. So they literally in addition to having physicians, nurses, they also had musicians
40:05
that would come in specifically to play certain tones for certain mental health conditions. Diet
40:11
and food was a major part of this healing process because what you eat either makes you ill or heals
40:17
you. And that was a major focus on customizing the fe the meals for each and every patients
40:23
depending on their condition. Right? And then you have the elements of therapy, talk therapy.
40:29
People are amazed when I say this. The Muslims absolutely maybe they didn't invent talk therapy, but they absolutely utilized, pushed forward and contributed to the concepts of talk therapy,
40:40
right? I talk I write I write a lot about Bali because I really like this particular individual
40:45
and my early papers are about him and he really pushed forward the concept of talk therapy for
40:50
different conditions. My papers on obsession, OCD, on phobias for example, outline a form
40:56
of cognitive behavioral therapy that we use today called exposure therapy that he in the 9th century
41:02
completely outlined and explained how you do this. They used talk therapies as well. It was a model
41:08
of healing that was truly um fully holistic all of your senses spiritually, physically, mentally,
41:16
emotionally. And you were healed from the inside out. And you were not let to be discharged from
41:21
this space until you were fully well. And the funny part of the story is and also until you
41:26
can eat a full chicken. until you can eat a full chicken. Really, which I thought was quite because
41:34
it meant that you were now physically healthy well enough to do so. Yeah, that's good. That's
41:39
good. It's a trigger warning for vegetarians here. Sorry. I suppose um we will accommodate them too
Reviving Bimaristan model
41:44
in we'll accommodate them too and and Okay, that's really fascinating. So, how then can we recreate
41:51
this in in modern society, modern cities? I mean does a maristan model work in New York or London.
41:57
Oh absolutely and I can't wait to do exactly this thing in this my dream my dua in that before Allah
42:04
takes me off this earth that I'm able to begin the revival process. The book here is the blueprint of
42:10
how exactly to do exactly what you said. It's the historical model for modern implementation
42:16
is the title for this very purpose. Yeah. Look everywhere Islam went the Mistans went with it.
42:23
We know this because everywhere if you look across the Muslim ummah you see that there's massagid everywhere. The institution of the masid travels with Islam wherever it goes. Yes. And when
42:34
you enter a masid as a Muslim you know what to do. You know the you know the direction. You know what to do for prayer. You know where to make woodoo. It's understood what this is functionally for.
42:42
Everywhere Islam went the madaris went with it because this is a religion of education as the
42:48
first word of revelation. Yes. Read. Yeah. And so that's prevalent across the Muslim world. It
42:54
turns out in our research that everywhere Islam went, the Mattistans went with it as well, right? You have Mattistans from, you know, west to east all the way through. Whether we're talking about
43:06
Muslim Spain, whether we're in Morocco, whether we're talking about in the in the Gulf world, you know, in in Damascus being the very first of them, Baghdad had amazing, Cairo, Madistan,
43:17
Usbekiststan had a amazing beautiful Madistan. And if you look all throughout everywhere Islam went
43:23
the Mistan went with them in South Asia as well India we have a couple papers on this as well
43:29
it's phenomenal. So what would be the distinction between Cairo and London? Right. Right. Between
43:36
Baghdad in its original state and New York. Of course, we can have a madistan in these
43:41
uh spaces and places. However, when I talk about the spiritual significance of architecture,
43:47
it must also match the location in which you're in. It cannot stick out like a sore thumb. It has
43:54
to match the very geography that you're in so that it is actually healing and calming to the person.
44:00
You don't want something that looks like it came out of New Delhi in the middle of New York, right? Yes. So, so it will look very New York like if you will, but it will have the elements of
44:10
healing even within it. Yeah. So, you're actually planning to make Maristan to build a maran. is my
44:17
hopes and dream inshallah with the right partners and funding and we call upon the investors and those interested in putting their their endowments into this project. This is how they were funded.
44:26
How far has the project gone at this point? Blueprint. So the research that we did was about three years of traveling across the Muslim world looking at all these different institutions
44:35
the amistans that are still standing. The majority of them are in a stumble at the moment or I should say in Turkey at the moment. I spent a sabbatical you know traveling from one end of the country to
44:45
the other visiting all the institutions that are still standing Cairo and others. Um as a
44:51
child as a young person I'd also gone to the one in Damascus although I hope inshallah to be able to visit again soon. And there are commonalities in all of them. There are unique distinctions in
45:02
all of them. And in uh processing all of this information, we've also now done a rendition
45:07
kind of a blueprint architecturally what this might look like in the San Francisco Bay area.
45:13
We've been working with a student of mine who um has now has the buyin of the Stanford uh dean
45:18
of engineering, the deans of architecture and sustainability. Um it's been phenomenal. We've
45:24
talked to several architects in this sense and now really comes down to the business model itself.
45:29
We formed a nonprofit organization, a 501c3 in the United States called Mattistan with the hope and
45:36
the purpose to actually bring this to life. The last few years we've been working on education,
45:41
elevating the global consciousness around this very topic and concept. The next few years we hope
45:47
is actual implementation building and creating and then the programming that has bins within
45:52
it inshallah. And is it your wish that um these maristans also are developed in the Muslim world?
45:59
So you'd have recreation of of our traditional methods of healing in uh Istanbul in Damascus in
46:08
you know absolutely Muslim cities. Absolutely. But I'll tell you something because people have asked me we're in Koala Lumpur today and people have said what about Malaysia? I was just in Indonesia.
46:17
I was just in Bosnia right all these trips in the Muslim majority lands. And I keep receiving this
46:22
question and I say yes inshallah inshallah in time. However, what I've learned in my journey and process, unfortunately, fortunately, however you wish to term it, the east continues to look
46:36
at the west. There is something about having this first done in the west. I was just in Istanul. I
46:44
delivered the first lecture on Islamic psychology in one of the universities they've ever allowed.
46:49
They've never had a discussion about this. They said, "You're the first to talk about Islam and psychology." I said, "How in this country when so much emerged from here?" And they said,
46:59
"That's how it is." And I and I said, "You know, you have my lab at Stanford, the Muslim Mental
47:04
Health and Islamic Psychology Lab." Yeah. When they heard that, they said, "Oh, we should have this in Turkey, too." I said, "You're the origin, right?" Subhan Allah. It's something about,
47:13
unfortunately, our and I say this, our our lands and our bodies are no longer colonized, but our minds still are. And there's something about starting this first in the west. Yeah.
47:25
Making short works. I need to be able to supervise it directly. California is an excellent place for
47:31
this. They're very into all things holistic and new age. Subhan Allah. But once we're able to do
47:37
this one once well and know that it works, then comes the scaling. Right. Right. and
47:44
spreading across the world. We hope inshallah love revitalizing what a psychiatric holistic
47:51
healing center and system might look like. Dr. Ronnie, you look quite unassuming in many ways,
Non-Muslim colleagues
47:56
but you're pretty radical. It seems there is a subversiveness to your to your aspirations. I
48:01
mean, is that is that how you see yourself? I see myself as an accidental psychiatrist.
48:09
Okay. So, so I I want to wrap up this conversation. I think it's fascinating. And um um you've got colleagues from mainstream psychology. You've got you've got you you will
48:20
be interacting with non-Muslims all the time at Stanford. I mean, how are they interacting with
48:26
this Maristan idea with the the broader principles and paradigm of Islamic psychology? you know those
48:32
that we've shared this with such as some of the different um disciplines across the university
48:38
that I was mentioning they're very interested in this and I think it's because um I think we're if
48:45
you take a pulse on modern psychiatry today there is a brokenness to the system and anybody who is
48:51
honest enough will admit this and interestingly enough the field itself when I first was training
48:57
and entered the field there was no discussion on religion definitely Definitely not. Spirituality
49:03
was far, maybe culture. Now I'm finding the field really shifting the other way of wellness,
49:09
well-being. What does it mean to bring all your identities to the table and really help you heal fully? And modern medicine is coming, you know, precision medicine and really thinking
49:19
about individualized care. There are so many things that are happening in the field now. Um, an incorporation of what they used to call alternative forms of healing that are now
49:28
becoming the mainstream of the field. the time is ripe for this. Subhan Allah. That's it's fabulous.
49:35
Um I feel that um there is still a problem. Well, certainly you you I would imagine you see this
Working with Imams
49:42
within the Muslim community because of course when we do have Muslims who face these traumas
49:48
and mental illness, they would normally go to their imams and the mosques and within the Muslim
49:53
community, there is a stigma that is attached to mental health. And and of course probably and I
50:00
maybe I'm you know maybe this is unfair but I would suggest that our imams are are very much
50:06
illquipped to deal with uh uh these mental health crises and problems. Uh is there a in
50:13
your outreach is there work that you do with um with Muslim communities in America and beyond? Oh
50:20
100% really what are you telling them? And I say and before I say this, I'll say I say I speak this
50:27
uh what I will say now as somebody who is also an ustada. Yes, I teach the religious sciences. Yeah,
50:33
the sacred sciences is my initial training. I am married to a sheh. The reason I say all of these things is because I'm not here to attack the sh or the imams or to belittle their work and how
50:43
much load is on them. Yeah. Every single research study we have done in my lab for all the years,
50:49
we've repeated the study multiple times where we ask who are you most likely to go to if you
50:54
or your loved one believes they have a mental health condition and we list out the various
50:59
uh types of people they may go to. The imams at least in the United States the imams are always
51:04
at the top right after friends and family. Yeah, the psychologist psychiatrists are still towards
51:10
the bottom of the list. It's shifting. there's something generationally shifting here with the younger generation but still this is the case. So I was mentioning how the nonprofit organization
51:20
after doing my lab you know having this lab maybe seven years into my lab after publishing in mainstream and highle medical journals and really getting the word out there and you know all
51:29
the nature JAMAMA Lancet all these big journals decided well how am I getting this information
51:34
to the Muslim community my own communities right at this point we formed the nonprofit
51:39
organization Maristan and really focused on education psycho education in the beginning
51:45
training of our front online Muslim community leaders which the majority of whom are imams
51:50
but also your Sunday school teachers your youth directors your people who engage with and are seen
51:55
as leaders in their communities. So Marrison offers multiple trainings, some of them very difficult trainings such as the one on suicide for example and it trains from and this all comes from
52:06
the lab. All this research comes from the lab and is translated over in the community facing
52:11
organization Marristan and it brings the Sharia sciences so all the rules of Islam and marries it
52:17
with the scientific understandings of psychology and psychiatry. This combination you rarely find.
52:23
It's actually quite unique work, but it's powerful work because it's really reshaped how people see
52:30
and understand mental health, including the imams themselves, who by the way very often are very
52:36
clear that they are out of their depths, right? They're like, I don't know why everyone comes to
52:41
me for their teenager who's, you know, doing something wrong and the person who's dealing with addiction and the marriage that's falling apart and I'm not trained in any of these things,
52:49
right? And so, we're here to assist and help and train them. Yeah, to fill some of these gaps. I
52:55
said earlier on that I I taught young adults and in particular I felt that over the last 10 years,
Young women and men
53:01
young women in particular have uh have faced enormous challenges in their personal lives and
53:08
and mental health is always a an issue of concern to very many of them. Um can you talk to that
53:15
like what's causing this? Some some analysts have called it an an epidemic of mental illness amongst
53:20
young women. What's causing these fault lines within those those those minds? May I say young
53:27
women and young men? And young men. Yeah, maybe that maybe the young men exhibits in different ways. I I would imagine I mean suicide rates are probably higher amongst young men than women.
53:37
This is true in you know in terms of suicide specifically. Yeah. But I would like to say
53:42
that because it's young people and yes they may exhibit in different ways but the very um aspects
53:48
of when you see that at the core are affecting both. You mentioned capitalism earlier. I also
53:54
think about what is it causing somebody to be uh skewed and far away from the core and alignment
54:00
of what their purpose here in the dunia is. Yeah. This is affecting both. Um one might think look at
54:07
you know I think of social media beauty standards. what does it mean? And it's very fickle. Yes, fads
54:13
come and go and people chase after this and then it shifts very quickly the next day and next week,
54:19
right? And it comes and so when you think about how do you help somebody who's um looking at all
54:25
of these external factors as their role models, as their goals in life, and in reality they're not
54:32
really grounded in this way. This is true of both the women and the men. Yeah. All young people, right? Muslim and not Muslim. both. There's a certain grounding I think we need to redo for
54:42
people to reel to really help them anchor them in a way that they are not just going with the fat and the flow as it comes. Is there a problem with looking out for the latest health fad,
54:53
the latest mental health solution? I I've come across people who every month they've got a new
54:59
thing that they've latched on to to save them from a a crisis or a challenge in their lives. I mean,
55:05
is that type of mentality problematic? It may very well be. Yeah. Um I think about what is it that's
55:13
really at the root of all of this. If there is a crisis that a person is just sort of coping with,
55:20
they may be coping in an unhealthy fashion and maybe latching on to these various fads and health, you know, things that are not really treating the core root and issue is problematic
55:32
because if you do go to the very root of the issue, maybe we solve what that is and maybe it takes time, months even of real deep treatment. There's a certain humility to to say something is
55:43
wrong and I need help beyond myself and beyond the quick fix. Dr. Ranad, you've been very um generous
55:51
with your time. You've got a book in front of you there. This is your new book on Mari Stan. Yes. Would you like to say a few words about about what uh what you hope to achieve from the book and
55:58
what it what it contains in terms of knowledge. Sure. Yeah. This was written because we felt
56:05
that most people had no idea what the naristans were Muslim and non-Muslim alike. the field of
56:10
psychology had largely lost touch completely with these concepts. Yeah. Um and I would say maybe
56:17
not even lost touch but sometimes and we write about this whether inadvertently or purposefully
56:22
leaving out the Muslims from the discussion. Um, so many of the papers that I've sent out and published in the world when the reviewers because they're double blinded peerreview,
56:30
they don't know who I am or what my institution is when they're reviewing for scientific content, they've written back amazed and I know it's double blinded because they usually call me a
56:40
he instead of a she. It's the bias of academic medicine. Yes. But they'll say things like his
56:46
work shows subhan Allah. Um, you know, really overturns the discussion on psychology. Yeah,
56:53
we we're what we're doing here is we're rewriting the narrative. We are rewriting the narrative.
56:59
Um as in to say what was the role of the early Muslims in the field of we today call psychology.
57:05
What were their contributions? The idea of bringing and finding that the Muslims were the
57:10
first to bring medicalized psychiatric treatment into their hospital systems is phenomenal. The
57:16
entire field needs to know this. every psych 101 or psych one, you know, initial introduction of
57:21
psychology class at every university needs to rewrite their curriculum and retach it in order
57:28
to then be able to say, well, why why would the Muslims were the ones to do such a thing? And
57:34
for them, when you realize that there is such a holistic level of understanding the human psyche, all of its aspects and treating it, this is our goal. It was a blueprint.
57:43
It is a blueprint to explain how the Muslims then institutionalize put it into a center of healing.
57:50
How do they take it from theory to practice? So several of the chapters here are explaining just
57:57
that treatments architecture concepts and then there is a chapter that I feel is very important
58:04
which is about financial sustainability right how do you sustain these institutions because
58:10
what I found amazing as I traveled is they'd be around for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years how do you keep an institution running for hundreds of years it's the or the endowments the
58:21
ruler the wealthy families individuals that wanted this and it's actually written into
58:26
sometimes the very wall of the institution says right I am building this institution so that I
58:33
am buying my ticket to Jenna quite literally it's powerful and it's part of our heritage
58:39
and tradition we shouldn't run away from the discussion of mental health and psychiatry in fact if anything we should embrace it and understand the Muslims were in fact some of the best early
58:49
pioneers of this field and they understood it in a way that's different than modern psychology,
58:54
much more holistic and can actually truly help not just the Muslim but all all of humanity truly
59:00
in healing. So this is our blueprint. We hope inshallah to bring it to life as we discussed
59:06
inshallah soon with the proper partners and funding and assistance in and so you're actively
59:11
looking out for partners. Absolutely. Right. So if people come our way we should refer them to yourself. You know there may be Yes. Muslims who who want to buy their ticket to Jenna. Yes.
59:20
That's right. That's right. or and perhaps there's skill sets. We need so many skill sets to put an
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institution of holistic healing like this in place such as architecture, business design, interior
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design. Um the actual healing programs that should be within this space. So the psychologists
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and psychiatrists and others, clinicians and healers, um you know, I'm looking at color, sound,
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um the type of greenery that should be in there. There's so many different types of disciplines that need to come together to really bring this to life. Inshallah, I'm really um uh honored to have
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you with us today and I think there's a little healing in the blue of our thinking Muslim logo and set. I I would I I would like to say but uh Jazak, thank you so much. It's it's really
1:00:06
been a fascinating conversation. Thank you. Allah bless you and accept from all of us. Amen. Amen.
1:00:16
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