Ep 234. - Liberté, Égalité, Islamophobie - Uncovering France's Pipeline of Hate with Rayan Freschi
The horrific murder of Abu Baker Cisse shocked the Muslim community in France. But his murderer was radicalised by an approach to Muslims that starts with politicians in grey suits, who have charged up the French population on a diet of islamophobic hate, competing with the pernicious right wing. For the French Muslim, it's relentless.
As elections come closer, Rayan Fresachi from Cage International talks to us about how the French state has conspired once again to demonise Muslims.
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
the horrific murder of Abu Bakr Cece shocked the Muslim community of France the murderer
0:07
stabbed him 57 times whilst the brother was actually in sujud most of the time
0:12
the Islamophobic motive is completely denied so the symbolic violence of such a denial is
0:18
quite stark is quite shocking it's unacceptable to recognize that this is not just a a single
0:25
violent act but it's actually something that is the direct result of an Islamophobic atmosphere
0:31
that is nurtured fueled by the discourses of people like the Minister of the Interior as
0:38
elections come closer Rayan Fresky from Cage International talks to us about how the French
0:44
state has conspired once again to demonize Muslims how do they get away with making
0:49
these sort of conflations between religious practice and links to political groups the emergence of that generation if it survives the state attempts at essentially erasing
1:02
our collective memory or struggle we might be uh maybe more successful in the future
1:12
the horrific murder of Abu Bakr Cece shocked the Muslim community in France but his murderer
1:18
was radicalized by an approach to Muslims that starts with politicians in gray suits who have
1:24
charged up the French population on a diet of Islamophobic hate competing with the penicious
1:30
rightwing for the French Muslims it's relentless as elections come closer Rayan Freski from Cage
1:37
International talks to us about how the French state has conspired once again to demonize Muslims
1:44
rayan Freski asalam allayikum and welcome back to the thinking Muslim dear brother Jahal thank you
Aboubakar Cisse
1:50
so much for having me it's lovely to have you with us now you've um come to visit us from France and
1:55
um uh often um we know I mean we know as British Muslims that there are challenges
2:01
for Muslims all over the Western world and beyond uh but often we we say to ourselves that
2:07
um uh in conversation that at least we're not like France when it comes to the treatment of Muslims and I suspect that from our last conversation we know that
2:18
the French state is uh has a very heavy hand when it comes to the Muslim community uh but
2:24
um uh I I understand that there have been some really worrying developments over the last year
2:29
or so and and I want to capture those developments inshallah let's start with a horrific case that I
2:36
think most of us saw on social media and that was the murder of this young man Abu Bakr Cis
2:42
uh who was murdered in a masid I think in in France just talk us through uh what happened
2:48
there and and who the perpetrator was yeah yeah yeah yeah thank you so much for your for your
2:54
question and yes regarding the case of brother Abu Bakr what happened is a um a young man uh
3:02
came to the masid uh pretending to be essentially interested in Islam and Abu Bakr welcomed him and
3:10
essentially taught him how to pray uh I don't know if you guys saw the video which is quite shocking
3:16
but it was essentially showing him how to uh how to pray salah right and whilst he was showing him
3:22
how to pray the murderer stabbed him 57 times uh uh whilst the brother was actually injud
3:34
that's that's what we hope for him and uh uh uh right after the murder the um the man actually
3:43
recorded a series of videos on social media where he essentially declared his racist and
3:49
Islamophobic uh intent and motive right so uh he uh fled the country he went to Italy in a
3:56
city Pistoia near near Florence he was arrested there and now he's been brought back to uh to
4:03
France and at some point he should be of course prosecuted charged and uh uh uh convicted uh for
4:10
his uh for his murder yeah um my understanding is that uh at the time or just after the killing
Political reaction
4:16
uh officials uh local officials national officials politicians were very reticent to pick up on that
4:24
white supremacy or that sort of racist element or the Islamophobic element of the crime and instead
4:30
focus very much on you know this the personal uh mental breakdown maybe of this particular
4:36
individual exactly um uh just talk me through sort of the the political reaction to to his murder
4:42
yeah yeah i think uh it's quite um it's quite a feature of uh uh French Islamophobia actually
4:49
not just French Islamophobia it's a feature of Islamophobia worldwide uh each and every time that a murder or physical aggression takes place and one of us is actually attacked by someone
5:01
uh most of the time the motive the Islamophobic motive is uh uh uh to say the least toned down or
5:08
uh uh I should say actually completely denied and psychological excuses are used essentially not to
5:16
justify the murder but to explain it right and it's a way of uh essentially depoliticizing the
5:22
entire case and in a very subtle and quite vicious way it's a way to almost deny the existence or at
5:30
least the gravity of the Islamophobic phenomenon uh uh at play right so the symbolic violence of
5:37
such a denial is quite u is quite uh stark is quite is quite shocking and as you uh as you
5:44
out outlined um what really uh I'm not sure that it surprised us but it deeply wounded the Muslim
5:52
Muslim community in France is that the uh uh minister of the interior Bruno actually refused
6:00
to vis to visit the masjid and the local Muslim community right uh he actually went to the uh
6:08
prefect which is essentially the local executive authority but he didn't pay any visit to the uh
6:15
to the community that was grieving one of its key uh key members why why would you help them i think
6:22
uh just the degree of French Islamophobia is such that it's unacceptable to recognize that this is
6:31
a not just a uh single actu uh of a single violent act but it's actually something that
6:38
is the direct result of a islamophobic context of an islamophobic atmosphere that is in a way
6:46
or another directly uh uh nurtured fueled by the discourses of people like Bruno or the minister
6:55
of the interior and the entire political spectrum it's something that is quite a uh specific feature
7:02
of the French context and is actually being analyzed by scholars of Islamophobia worldwide
7:09
uh that feature is the denial of racism and the denial of Islamophobia by French society by the
7:17
French state it's something that is quite uh uh that is quite shocking the degree of u of
7:22
denial as I've mentioned is is truly is truly staggering and it leads to these kind of uh uh
7:29
uh uh to these kind of responses institutional responses just uh recall what happened in Christ
7:34
Church in 2019 after what happened the response the institutional response the political response
7:40
was completely different of course structural isophobia didn't uh wasn't abolished or didn't
7:46
uh vanish of course but at least there were some decent symbolic gestures that uh uh uh
7:55
you know essentially demonstrated that there was a willingness to show some solidarity some some
8:01
common decency after a uh a a brutal attack on on Muslims at the time Prime Minister Jasinda Ardan
8:10
she wore hijab in solidarity of the Muslim community which is quite a strong gesture whatever we think of the political move at least at least it's a it's a it's a it's a it's an overt
8:24
sign of solidarity and that's clearly not what happened in France actually something far worse happened a few weeks afterwards local leaders and organizations started a water trucking program
Donate to Baitulmaal
8:41
as part of fighting hunger and malutrition program of Battlem battlem staff has donated
8:46
about 24 trips of water tracks such as this one that you can see behind us people were
8:53
dying here there was no water kids were not going to school it has become a major issue and this is not the first time we've responded we've responded even in the past seasons but
9:01
we need to find a sustainable solution we are here on behalf of Betel Mal to meet and understand the need of these beautiful people here this water tank the truck comes
9:11
here and it supplies this well for water that is sustainable for uh a whole week we are also
9:17
distributing food rations to affected families by drought in this region we are distributing this
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food to vulnerable communities who need this food parcel we're waiting for your donation
Politicians on Islamophobia
9:31
uh we'll come to that so the French minister uh overseas minister Emanuel V yeah uh he u
9:39
said about the accusation that this crime was in some way motivated by Islamophobia he said
9:46
Islamophobia is a term that was invented over 30 years ago by the Iranian Müllers i mean what's
9:52
going on there why did he announce me it's it's actually a it's a conspiratorial theory
9:59
that that has been adopted by some politicians and some Islamophobic intellectuals according
10:05
to which uh islamophobia the term uh is as you've mentioned invented by the Iranian mulas in the in
10:15
the 70s in order to prevent any critic of Islam as a dean as a religion it's just yet another tactic
10:25
uh uh used in order to deny not just the term but actually the existence of any islamophobic
10:32
hatred of the Islamophobic phenomenon in the in the French context it's a tactic that uh that
10:38
uh the the the French political spectrum has used uh uh since the dawn of the war on terror
10:45
so essentially the 2000s uh but it wasn't uh adopted by uh uh uh by the state essentially
10:52
that's that wasn't uh the case right after 2001 and so on and so forth but now very clearly this
10:59
conspiratorial this conspiracy theory and other conspiracy theories and we're going to discuss
11:04
that right afterwards uh are now actually not only adopted but also promoted by the state in order to
11:12
essentially essentially deny as I've mentioned the reality of any uh violence towards towards Muslims
The right
11:20
how much of the response by the political elites i mean you know the these politicians belong to
11:27
uh what essentially is a centrist government or center-right government of Emanuel Macron how much of it is a nod to the far right that are now surgeon in the polls um in fact in
11:38
your last parliamentary election uh Marine Le Pen did very well and um came very close to uh
11:45
to you know to to a majority or at least to a a sizable uh grouping in parliament so there is a
11:52
uh there is a tendency growing in France and how much is it that uh these politicians are having to
11:59
echo some of the uh some of the values and some of the um uh problems or challenges that that these
12:06
uh these parties have i think the explanation is twofold uh the first part of the explanation
12:12
is the one that you just outlined uh clearly the uh surge of the far right is quite uh uh
12:19
uh historic uh if you look at the numbers uh during last year's snap elections Leen's
12:26
party secured the most votes actually these votes were not translated into a majority in parliament
12:33
as a result of some tactical moves made by other parties but still she his her her her party came
12:40
first in terms of votes which is completely uh completely unprecedented in the recent history
12:47
of uh of French politics so that's quite uh quite massive um and very clearly that surge
12:55
uh promotes very racist and isophobic discourses and policies and so on and so forth because they
13:02
are essentially becoming mainstream right uh uh so there's that that aspect of other parties that are
13:08
trying to seduce some of the voters of the far right using the same language and the same dose
13:14
course but I think that's not the only reason why I think that very clearly uh uh majority of the
13:20
political spectrum actually adopts Islamophobia not not just as a let's say tactical move but
13:27
really because they believe that Muslims should be governed through Islamophobia because they
13:33
I believe strongly that they believe we are an existential threat to the republic to the French
13:40
nation um we last spoke a couple of years ago and this was during the the whole debate about the
Islamophobic French bill
13:46
separatism bill and at that time uh the government was looking to uh to create a a piece of
13:54
legislation that would make it much more difficult for Muslims to separate from from wider society
14:01
now that bill has become an act of government just just go through the the impact that bill has
14:07
had on the day-to-day lives of of of Muslims yeah the the impact is uh is wide ranging and is quite
14:17
uh uh disruptive for the uh uh uh day-to-day life of the Muslim civil society uh uh just
14:24
to give you some context it was adopted in 2021 a few years after the state began a nationwide
14:32
policy entitled the systematic obstruction policy that was essentially meant to uh disrupt obstruct
14:40
right uh using any piece of legislation possible the um political growth the um how can I say that
14:48
the natural uh functioning of the Muslim civil society Yeah and before the adoption
14:54
of the anticiparatism law we had a few thousand Muslim establishments that were targeted by the
15:02
administration through repeated uh uh controls uh uh and some of those Muslim establishments
15:08
was were actually closed down by the government uh examples of organizations that were shut down
15:14
uh for example this is CIF uh who which was the leader of the anti-Islamophobia struggle in France
15:21
baraka City a the most famous humanitarian group in France uh the Nawa publishing house a very
15:28
famous Muslim publisher in France uh but also some masjids were closed down some restaurants
15:34
as well some businesses as well so it was quite wide ranging and the anticipar the anticiparatism
15:40
law was adopted in order to essentially uh uh allow the state grant the state even more
15:46
executive powers in order to uh deepen the impact of that policy and right now the latest data uh
15:55
uh uh shared by the government demonstrates that at least 30,000 establishments were targeted by
16:02
these controls by the administration and at least a thousand of these establishments were actually
16:08
closed down uh on top of that and that's also something that uh uh is a uh a clear uh uh way to
16:16
uh obstruct the growth of our community at least 55 million euros were seized by the state uh uh uh
16:26
uh in the last few years some of my viewers may uh say that okay maybe there is a case to uh to argue
Muslims separating themselves?
16:33
that some Muslims are separating themselves too much from wider society um just spell out for me
16:41
um what types of behaviors were captured by the state when it uh when it passed this bill
16:50
what's really important to realize is that what is actually being criminalized is not let's say
16:58
a specific uh political strategy used by some Muslims in the community it's really the adance to
17:09
Islam so you're praying so you are clearly Muslim because you have a beard because you're wearing
17:15
hijab because you are as I mentioned visibly Muslim because you're a practicing Muslim whatever
17:21
the degree of uh uh your practice actually is uh whatever school of arida whatever school of
17:28
you're actually following that's not the point it really is your Muslimness that is directly being
17:34
targeted and criminalized by the state so it's the separatism uh we could go deeper on why the
17:43
French state adopted that specific term separatism uh even from a philos philosophical standpoint I
17:49
think it's uh it's a way of I would argue uh criminalizing a key feature of our Muslimness
18:00
which is what I describe as the umatic allegiance the idea that as Muslims we do not fit into the
18:09
French ethnationalistic project because as Muslims we belong first and foremost to the ummah and this
18:15
is not something that we can uh compromise on it's not something that we can reform or change we are
18:22
part of a wider community and this is something that uh uh directly contradicts the foundation
18:28
of the French Republic and the foundation of the French ethno nationalistic project uh a few years ago uh former uh uh uh minister of the interior Dharma okay he made a speech on on
18:42
Islam and Muslims and he said Muslims in France exclusively belong to the national community
18:49
essentially you guys do not belong to the wider um you just belong you exclusively belong to the
18:56
French uh to the French state uh which is a way of completely denying a uh a a pillar of of Islam and
19:04
our Muslim this is not something that we can say to discuss if I remember right he said something like if a uh if there's a competition between Allah and the French state the French state comes
19:16
before us exactly yeah yeah it's something that Yeah yeah the one of the key phrases is uh the
19:23
laws of the republic are above the laws of Allah all right yeah yeah it's essentially encapsulates
19:30
the uh overarching spirit of uh of French Islamophobia so I want to then go to uh the events
Report by French state on Muslims
19:38
of these last couple of months because there's a report which many of my viewers will probably not know very much about there's a report that's been published by the French state about uh the Muslim
19:49
community yet again uh just take us through what this report insinuates and uh and of course the
19:56
impact of this report of course yeah so the report uh is supposed to focus on the infiltration of the
20:04
Muslim Brotherhood in French society through a strategy of entry right that's exactly the
20:11
uh the title of the report actually it's the focus of the report and it was commissioned a year ago
20:16
in May 2024 during a council of defense uh uh in which Mron and some key ministers actually were
20:26
a part of imagine that a council of defense is actually a big deal it's something that is being organized in order to address very serious issues like I don't know the COVID pandemic the war in
20:36
Ukraine whatever and on top of that of course the infiltration of the Muslim Brotherhood which is now regarded as a uh as a key threat to to the nation and some uh I think at least one ambassador
20:50
an ex- ambassador to the Muslim world was asked to uh essentially uh gather evidence of a
20:58
uh covert plot led by the Muslim Brotherhood uh that was supposed to uh subvert the republic in
21:07
order to establish Sharo so it's very clearly a conspiracy theory it's a con it's a it's an absurd
21:15
con conspiratorial sorry discourse and it almost makes me laugh except that it's something that
21:22
is taken very seriously by the uh highest members of the state literally the president commissioned
21:28
that report and the report was supposed to be published uh last fall actually so uh but and
21:35
that's also something that makes me laugh because it really it sounds like a movie actual the uh the
21:43
the actual minister of the interior ro he said well the reports results are so alarming that we
21:53
had to classify it and I'm going to essentially write a summary of that report I'll be able to
22:01
uh publicize essentially and publish and diverge and that summary was published a few weeks ago
22:07
right uh again imagine that we we started started our discussion with the brutal murder of Abuimah
22:16
one could argue that as a result of such a murder the French state could have at least
22:25
uh uh uh halted its uh uh uh its Islamophobic agenda at least for a few months because we
22:32
were grieving the death of Abu Bakr on top of that there's a genocide in Palestine the situation is
22:37
quite difficult and harsh for us it didn't they published the report I think it was two or three
22:43
weeks after the murder of Abuakaris whilst we were still grieving yeah right and they published that
22:50
and the report is essentially what's what's the content of report it's essentially a an a short
22:57
historical breakdown of the Muslim Brotherhood so how it started in Egypt and so on and so forth and
23:04
then there's a let's say sort a list a description of Muslim organizations uh very wide ranging
23:12
Muslim organizations um some that are advocating for Muslim rights but also organizations that
23:18
are involved in humanitarian work uh Islamic education whatever and they are essentially
23:24
accused of being affiliated to the uh global Muslim Brotherhood what's quite amazing is that
23:32
there's literally no evidence that demonstrates that affiliation and moreover in the very first
23:39
page of the report the report says "By the way we acknowledge that we can't be entirely sure
23:47
that the Muslim Brotherhood is actually present in the country." It's quite it's quite amazing that
23:53
that the report itself acknowledges the complete lack of scientific foundation of of of that work
24:00
so my understanding is that the report effectively says that there is this Muslim Brotherhood plot
24:06
uh to take over organizations civil society in in the country uh and the idea is to
24:14
is entryism so the idea is to uh access the highest levels of French society in order to
24:20
uh what implement Sharia law exactly that's the idea behind and people are taking this seriously
24:26
in France apparently yes and I think uh uh it's always difficult to assess how the uh wider public
24:32
is responding to these discourses and these policies uh but uh given the kind of electoral
24:40
behaviors that we've witnessed in the last few years uh I wouldn't be surprised if actually
24:46
a majority of the population is actually buying it because it's not just coming from you know a
24:52
uh small part of a small uh white supremacist group and they're trying to share these shocking
25:00
ideas shocking conspiracy theories now these theories are directly adopted and promoted by
25:07
the state and to the wider public mako is not far right we both know that his discourse that the way
25:14
uh uh the government is governing Muslims is clearly through Islamophobia clearly through a far-right discourse but the way it's perceived by the masses is not necessarily that so uh it's
25:25
not completely absurd to actually believe that a majority of the French population maybe uh yeah
25:32
find that uh that theory um uh actually quite serious or at least that there's something in
25:39
it that might require a strong response from the state um very clearly there's a u if the starting
25:48
point of our analysis is that white supremacy is actually the system that is governing uh the west
25:57
at large i very clearly sense that uh our presence Muslims presence in the west and more specifically
26:05
in France clearly triggers uh uh a strong and deep degree of paranoia uh a sense of uh maybe
26:15
uh that white privilege is becoming fragile because Muslims are not only present but their
26:22
influence is actually growing which in a way is not something that is completely legitimate or
26:27
absurd as any community it's quite understandable that we might be interested in politics in having
26:34
a say in the political discourse in the political uh competition at large it's not something that is
26:40
completely every uh community religious ethnical whatever is trying to protect its way of life
26:47
trying to push some policies trying to influence the Bali politic it's something that is completely
26:53
natural but uh I think as a result of the deep Islamophobic deumanization that is a direct result
27:01
of white supremacy and a direct result of the war on terror a direct result of the genocidal
27:07
era of Islamophobia we are currently in uh it's unacceptable for the uh white supremacist system
27:16
to uh it's unacceptable for it it's unacceptable that Muslims might have a political voice and if
27:24
we go even deeper if you look at the literature on demonization if you look at the works of Kafka or
27:30
the uh uh uh movies of David Kenberg for example the ultimate stage of demonization most of the
27:38
time is the loss of uh the ability to speak actually is the loss of you don't have a voice
27:44
anymore and having a voice being able to produce language is a key feature of any human right and
27:52
I see the u the white supremacist response the fact that we are not allowed to have actually a
27:58
voice in politics as a clear consequence of that demonization I understand in the report there was
Hijab in report
28:05
a section about the hijab and it it indicated that uh when it stated that wearing the hijab
28:13
is an indicator of Muslim Brotherhood affiliation um uh like how do they get away with making these
28:20
sort of conflations between religious practice and and you know links to political groups because
28:26
I think the the the the purpose of the report really is what matters in here the actual content
28:33
um you know there's a there's a doesn't really matter there's a there's a there's actually a a strong pattern in the war on terror of policies pieces of legislation that are adopted and based
28:45
on u p sodo scientific research uh very biased expertise uh that are not meant to be uh rigorous
28:55
expertise that are not meant to be objective but are just meant to be a essentially a pretext to
29:01
uh uh legitimize further Islamophobic policies in the British context for example the prevent
29:08
policy became a as you know a duty for every civil servant right after the uh uh extremism risk uh
29:16
guidance I think that's the name of uh uh uh the essentially piece of research that was promoted
29:23
by the state and was directly questioned by I think at the time was at least 140 academics so
29:31
many NOS's of course including cage uh that were directly questioning the uh scientific foundation
29:37
the scientific rationale of that uh of that guide of that guidance uh uh to such an extent that
29:44
most of these critics uh labeled that document as a science of pre-rime essentially a a fake
29:52
science that was supposed to predict a potential uh form of so-called extremism it unfortunately
30:00
is still the foundation of a policy that is still being applied in uh in in Great Britain so I think that uh that report in France serves a similar purpose you need to have some kind of
30:11
a foundation even if it's nonsensical that's not really the point it exists and as such it serves a
What do the French want?
30:18
purpose my understanding is that Muslims um count for around 10% of the population and it's quite
30:24
yeah 10% 8 to 10% population so we're where a sizable number of of uh of Muslims and the
30:30
Muslim community is very large in in in in France um what is the intended goal you've mentioned it
30:38
a few times of the separatism you know law of this report on Muslim Brotherhood like what do
30:44
they want to engineer within the Muslim community such that they would be satisfied that their work
30:50
has been done i think there's no u behavior that could actually satisfy the French yeah I really
30:58
don't see that from happening like even if because listen if you look at the last 20 years the uh
31:07
hegemonic discourse amongst the Muslim community was actually an integrationist discourse oh we're
31:13
French like anyone else we just want to enjoy the same rights uh just uh let's avoid discrimination
31:19
but we we we don't really have any uh uh strong uh uh uh will to engage in for example an autonomous
31:28
path muslim autonomy really isn't what we're trying to do in here integrationism legalism
31:34
non-violence these three pillars were actually the pillars of the uh overall Muslim discourse in
31:40
France and despite that those who pioneered those who championed that discourse were closed down by
31:48
the state a few years ago so what are we supposed to do uh uh uh just maybe completely abandon Islam
31:55
maybe but I'm not sure that's a that's a proper solution okay now of course a context a global
Gaza and France
32:01
context of all of this is the war on Gaza of course or the genocide in Gaza let's call it and
32:07
um uh is there a context on the domestic level where Gaza plays into or Gaza is a feature in
32:14
this sort of attack on Muslim community clearly of course I think what we are currently seeing
32:20
is quite similar to what happened in 2001 we're seeing an a legitimate act of political violence
32:28
guided by Muslims uh with whatever the moral appreciation we have on political violence it has
32:35
a context it has some degree of explanation right and uh that act of political violence catalyzed
32:44
an extremely strong Islamophobic response of course in Palestine it's called genocide but
32:51
uh similarly to what happened in the first years of the war on terror you have a essentially a
32:56
classic I was about to say war but it's not even a war it's a genocidal war it's actually a genocide that is happening where uh uh we believe that the culprits actually live in but then the entire
33:07
Muslim community is directly associated with those who carried out these acts of political violence
33:14
and hence they are also seen as uh culprits or at least people who were complicit and hence
33:21
people who deserve a degree of uh of punishment uh uh that translated into the prevent policy
33:29
in the UK so many laws counterterrorism powers in the in the US in France in the UK as well uh
33:38
uh and that's essentially what we are I think currently seeing right now these uh uh uh the
33:44
shocking uh denial of French Islamophobia the u uh shocking response to Islam these Islamophobic
33:52
murders the very existence of these Islamophobic murders are I believe a uh uh response catalyzed
34:00
by the events in uh in Palestine and so um I understand that there are some pro Gaza groups
Pro-Gaza groups shutdown
34:06
Palestine groups uh who have been involved in in activism and actually maybe say a little bit about
34:12
um the repression of pro Palestinian activism but I understand there are pro Gaza groups that
34:18
are now potentially going to be shut down by the state exactly on top of that so the murders are
34:24
taking place the report is being published and on top of that the largest uh pro Palestinian group
34:29
in the country Palestine that is essentially the leader of the pro Palestinian discourse the uh
34:38
essentially the um group that is organizing every pro Palestinian march in the country since 2023
34:46
uh received a letter a notification from the government a few weeks ago
34:51
announcing that essentially the government wants to shut it down and we are currently expecting
34:58
uh the uh the legal process goes as such the government sends a letter it explains the reasons
35:03
why the motive behind the potential decision the organization can respond not appeal it's not a
35:11
judicial appeal yet they essentially can respond via email or sending you a letter explaining that
35:16
they might not want to be shut down and then the next step is literally the government uh sending a second letter this time announcing the proper dissolution and we're expecting this uh in the
35:26
next few days why why shut down this group at this moment i think uh uh that decision is of course
35:36
uh uh comes is a direct consequence of the French complicity with the Zionist regime in in France
35:42
and as such there's a global trend that tries to silence any uh uh voice that is supportive
35:49
of the Palestinian struggle right now and the way it m that trend is of course global but the
35:54
way it manifests in France is quite uh is quite brutal because the French government has access
36:01
to executive measures that are quite uh that allow it to actually completely shut down completely go
36:08
close down organizations that are deemed uh uh uh illegit illegitimate sorry in the country so uh so
36:14
that's that's the best uh unfortunately that's the best strategy they can uh they can use and that's
French population pro-Palestine?
36:20
the reason why they're using it i mean have have these Palest pro Palestine groups had an impact on
36:26
uh on Palestinian activism on on public opinion you know for example in Britain now I think it's
36:32
fair to say that there is a majority of Brits who are against this genocide and um uh and
36:39
you we can see that the attitudes of the media are changing even some elements of the political
36:44
uh establishment is shifting because of that public opinion shift yeah um you know how
36:51
you've described a very Islamophobic population if that's if that's a right phrase to use um uh
36:58
does that imply that um they are in effect the population is in effect not on the side of of
37:05
the Palestinian cause i think that uh Jean Spin was very successful in uh in uh yeah uh in being
37:16
able to uh share the proper narrative on what's currently happening in Palestine in the French
37:24
context which was in and of itself a success uh I am not sure that a majority of the population
37:29
is actually siding with the Palestinians or at least believe that the genocide is quite is quite shocking i'm not sure maybe that might be the case but I'm not seeing the same uh uh uh degree
37:40
of success you guys witnessed in the uh in the uh in the British context uh maybe it could it's
37:47
possible but I believe that their main victory is that they were able to uh successfully organize
37:54
quite large march protests in the country and as a result at least one party Frenen Bow La France uh
38:02
uh essentially adopted a uh a uh a discourse that very clearly condemns the genocide uh describes
38:10
what's happening in Palestine as a genocide which is in and of itself a success and I won't
38:16
say sides with the Palestinian resistance because that's not true but uh supports the uh Palestinian
38:23
population in its uh endeavor to survive let's say that this way let's put it this way right so there
38:29
isn't really a domestic apart from this far-left group there isn't really a domestic pressure
38:35
uh that has been put on on Macron but then Macron has you know of course it's it's not enough and
Macron government on Palestine
38:41
it's it's very little but Macron has uh I think led the European response to uh to sanctioning
38:47
you know these two MPs in in uh the two ministers uh Israeli ministers in calling for a two-state
38:54
solution there was some talk about um holding a conference where a a two-state solution would
39:01
be declared by some European states um Macron has become stronger in his language against
39:08
uh against Netanyahu and of course the Americans have have been taken back by this so how do we
39:13
square this this new found uh approach I suppose towards Palestine of the Macron government and the
39:22
lack of um intensity lack of domestic pressure i think it's not really uh a consequence uh or the
39:30
expression of a pro Palestinian sentiment led by M or the French political spectrum it's actually
39:37
I believe an editage of the past uh if you look at the way uh the French uh positioned itself in
39:45
the Arab context uh post uh in the um uh post the independences in the in the in the African
39:52
uh in the African world in the Arab in the Arabic world as well uh it tried to depict itself as a
40:00
uh neutral diplomatic force and the reason why it adopted or at least it tried to adopt that
40:06
discourse is because you need to to imagine that at the end of the 60s at in the 70s as well France
40:13
was regarded as the most brutal uh uh uh colonial empire the one that butchered Algerians the one
40:21
that uh uh so many uh uh colonial subjects so its uh public image was quite uh was quite
40:30
bad actually so in order to reshape that and not being regarded in this new world order as
40:36
uh you know the u the violent and racist state that it actually was uh they essentially uh uh the
40:44
goal at the time adopted what it uh what he called the Arab policy which essentially translates into
40:51
a quite neutral language especially on the u on the uh on the uh Palestinian Palestinian context
41:00
essentially saying that Israel has a right to exist but the Palestinian state as well and
41:06
the borders of the Palestinian state should be respected and we should condemn any uh invasion
41:13
or invasion attempt by colonial settlers that's not something that we should support uh that at least was the the discourse and I think that's the reason why Mako is trying to keep some
41:24
connection because he believes that it gives some uh it gives him some credibility in the Arabic
41:29
world in the Muslim world maybe that it's also giving him some credibility amongst the Muslim
41:36
community in France at least that's that's his rationale hopefully not but that's I think the
41:41
reason why because if you look at actually the uh the proper policies the the the decision making
41:46
uh the concrete actions of the state very clearly France is a direct complicite of the Zionist
41:53
regime we've seen we so many NGOs have gathered sufficient evidence that demonstrates that French
42:01
ammunitions was actually were actually sent to the Zionist regime and used by the Zionist regime
42:08
against Palestinians so it's it's mainly PR and I would argue that it's even u it's badly written PR
42:16
it's not even successful as you've mentioned ryan can you like encapsulate the feeling
Feeling of French muslims
42:21
the sentiments of the Muslim community in France today i know that it's not a monolith and you know
42:27
Muslims are are very diverse in France but at the same time you know we've got a community here for
42:32
who for many years has been subject to uh state uh indifference and then state discrimination
42:42
uh we've got a community here who've been subject to horrific laws like the separatism law this new
42:47
report you know the banning of a hijab of course goes back uh many years um the the conflation
42:54
between Islamic practice spiritual Islamic practice and uh the link to to political Islam
43:01
i remember again it was the interior minister who went into a a supermarket and said this
43:06
is separatism he pointed to a halal meat aisle i think you know that's separatism that's separatism
43:13
right so you know you've got this deluge of of anger coming from the state and and of course
43:19
we haven't talked about media who I would imagine is as a complicit in this Islamophobic rhetoric
43:26
um what sort of effect is that having on on the ordinary Muslim who lives in who lives in France
43:34
as you've mentioned the the community is quite um is quite diverse but uh but for certain uh
43:40
there's a degree of um discouragement there's a degree of political paralysis as well that
43:46
is currently going on in the community which is quite quite understandable uh because they know that if they're trying to uh if they're just try to be vocal on the injustices in Palestine on
43:59
the injustices in France then the consequences could be quite uh quite quite harsh uh uh you
44:05
know closing down of the organization the raids that come along the house arrests uh some house
44:10
arrests took place hundreds of house arrests actually took place last year during the uh the games the Olympic games that took that exactly that that happened in Paris uh hundreds of Muslims
44:21
were placed under house arrest for the entire summer in order to protect national cohesion and
44:26
the security of the state of course the pretext so uh it's quite the price to pay is quite is quite
44:32
high so of course it's quite difficult to uh uh for some in the community it's quite difficult
44:38
to envision a future uh uh in the uh uh in in the in France actually so some of them uh there's a a
44:47
book that was published a few months ago that proved that at least 10,000 Muslims
44:53
uh uh uh fled the country uh made hijra right in order to uh find a better place where they
44:58
could live as Muslims without being criminalized to that extent and of course hijra remains uh a
45:05
uh a uh a uh a clear uh solution for for some of us but it's not necessarily something that
45:12
everyone can do you mentioned we are maybe six 7 million Muslims in France of course no one not the
45:18
the entire community could not leave the country right now uh uh hopefully what I'm also witnessing
45:25
is the rise of a new generation of activists uh researchers uh uh uh grassroots organizers
45:36
uh that I'm also a part of but even people that are younger than me people the who actually were born in the water who were born after 2001 and u uh their mental landscape was completely
45:51
uh shaped by the war terror by the French by French Islamophobia by the French policies against
45:57
Muslims and so on and so forth hopefully that uh the emergence of that generation hopefully if it
46:04
is uh trained properly if uh it survives the state attempts at uh essentially erasing collective
46:17
memory our collective memory or struggle and the lessons we gathered in the last 20 actually 30
46:23
years then hopefully we might uh be able to uh be uh maybe more successful in the future at least
46:31
that's my uh that's my uh that's my hope we're um in Britain at the moment we're sitting in London
46:37
and of course we have our challenges in the UK uh but we also have a a community here which
46:45
uh is essentially socially mobile you know there are young Muslims who are entering the workplace
46:51
and uh who are making their way through society with all the challenges that they face from the
46:58
Muslim this is what they would call entry so you know in in the French context do do we see that
47:04
level of you know they would call it integration we we would we wouldn't go that far we would say that this is you know just the normal engagement uh that we have do we do we have that level or is
47:16
is Islamophobia so pervasive in French society that on a sort of very basic level Muslims are
47:22
denied that level of access to to work in civil society there's that degree of engagement of
47:28
course uh which as you've mentioned is a a natural consequence of the uh uh community's presence in
47:37
the country uh but we're facing challenges uh that are quite uh quite uh uh uh uh I think uh specific
47:45
to the um to the French context uh in France for example there's an unwritten rule in the
47:50
um in the uh in the in the workplace according to which uh women who wear hijab are essentially
47:58
banned from uh from actually finding a job that doesn't mean they don't find a job but what I'm
48:03
trying to say is that it's extremely hard for them to actually find a place in in the workplace right
48:09
it's extremely extremely difficult uh uh um even for and we're seeing that trend as well for Muslim
48:16
muslim men sorry who are uh overtly practicing Islam who have a beard who do not necessarily
48:21
shake hands with the other gender and and so on and so forth it's becoming uh the discriminatory
48:27
practices in the workplace are quite common in France so the engagement is there of course it's
48:33
a natural consequence of our presence but the challenges are are very very numerous and that
48:38
as well impacts the uh psychological landscape of the entire Muslim community that doesn't mean I'm
48:46
listening to myself i'm like wow I'm depicting something that is very uh very very dark it is dark but uh uh but but hopefully as a result of our uh spiritual identity I think we have a degree
48:58
of resilience uh of resistance that is quite uh uh uh specific to us right uh as a direct result of
49:05
our beliefs and our practice uh so so hopefully that doesn't mean that we are essentially stuck
49:11
in a dead end and we won't be able to find solutions hopefully we will but it's clear that the challenges are very numerous you know these challenges are numerous uh things are not so good
Le Pen
49:20
for for Muslims in France um how do you answer the follow-in question or follow-in query uh Le Pen
49:28
uh came first in the last presidential election at least when it comes to vote share um presidential
49:34
elections are coming up and uh it's very likely and very possible commentators are suggesting that
49:41
uh Le Pen could even take the presidency true wouldn't that be a worse situation for Muslims in
49:48
France and so the question is uh shouldn't Muslims in France do everything in their power now uh to
49:55
prevent a Le Pen vitri even if that means even if that means and you know I I'm sure you you would
50:01
suggest subways even if that means to support the coalition of groups who essentially will stand
50:06
against Le Pen many of whom have passed these separatism laws and and continue this Islamophobic
50:12
policies yeah of course i I think short if we exclusively see things short term yeah of course
50:19
2027 the likelihood of a Lupen's victory is quite devastating right but I think we need to force
50:26
ourselves uh uh into uh having a more distant uh uh look and essentially trying to see things
50:34
uh uh uh not just short term but actually medium if not long term actually and as I've mentioned
50:40
uh we are fully entering a new political chapter and that political chapter is of course the era of
50:46
genocidal Islamophobia and in that chapter we are witnessing the rise of a new generation of Muslims
50:52
and what truly matters for me uh is actually our ability to focus on ourselves and our ability to
51:00
learn from the lessons of the last 25 30 uh to 30 years actually to me that's the main thing
51:07
if we're able to uh maintain our collective memory of struggle if we're able to uh share
51:14
what fun what actually was successful what was not successful uh I think we can identify uh uh
51:22
unexplored avenues for political growth and more specifically I think the main pillar that should
51:28
remain uh I think our uh uh uh ideal I don't like the term because most of the time ideals don't
51:34
become reality don't become true but you get the point is to clearly endeavor for Muslim autonomy
51:40
the idea is uh at least in the French context the more we tried to integrate the more we were
51:47
repressed right so it's clearly not functioning i would even argue further that it's not directly
51:53
in line with our beliefs and uh actually our Muslimness but that's another discussion but
51:59
at least trying to focus on ourselves as much as possible and avoid what partially happened in the
52:07
uh uh African-American community after these struggles of the 70s and the 70s what the Cornell
52:13
West identifies as the uh black elite betrayal uh who essentially enjoyed the successes of the uh
52:21
social rights movement and then fully integrated in the uh in uh in the white supremacist landscape
52:28
and and system how do we go from a community that supports Malcolm X Martin Luther King W
52:35
Dubo to a community that is okay with sending their children to the police or the American
52:42
army that are actually institutional pillars of white supremacy how how did that happen right
52:48
uh uh I think that's the uh that's the potential threat that could happen in the Muslim community
52:54
in France if we do not maintain our collective memory of struggle and do not remain true to uh uh
53:02
of course our beliefs and our uh endeavor towards Muslim autonomy i think that's the clear danger
53:10
uh it really is a clear danger because there's a possibility um you might be born Muslim but that
53:19
doesn't nely mean you're going to die Muslim that doesn't necessarily mean your children are going to uh die as Muslims so I think that this is a clear uh uh danger and uh and something that we
53:30
can easily prevent if we're able to learn from the lessons of the past very clearly for example uh uh it's actually completely unacceptable that as a Muslim community we
53:42
in France we haven't addressed the impact of counterterrorism powers and the way they
53:49
were developed in France and their impact on Muslims in the last 30 years because we don't
53:55
want to be associated with political violence or whatever that's not a mature political reaction
54:01
uh uh uh if you look at the the British context this is something that is widely acknowledged you
54:06
cannot conceptualize Islamophobia in the US or in Great Britain without taken into account without
54:14
analyzing the impact of these counterterrorism powers the way French is Islamophobia was
54:19
conceptualized uh in the last essentially 35 years uh it was conceptualized without taking
54:26
into account the development and the impact of counterterrorism powers that predominantly
54:31
targeted and impacted Muslims that's not something that we can we can explain that but of course it's
54:37
a mistake of the past and it's something that we need to uh uh integrate in our future uh discourse
54:44
in our future political language in uh Rian I I've asked you this question before and you've always
Leave France?
54:49
said to me the question is um uh have you ever thought about leaving uh leaving France because
54:57
of course the um the persecution the challenges are enormous with Muslim community in France and
55:04
your answer has always been but I have work to do there now we know that you're a member of Cage
55:09
uh a civil liberties organization and the Muslim Brotherhood and um how do we like explain to me
55:16
the work you do within the Muslim community in France and and what you're trying uh to achieve
55:22
uh in in the French context yeah essentially apart from the uh the research that I'm conducting on
55:29
French Islamophobia and the manifestations of the war and terror in the French context apart
55:34
from the case work that I'm that I'm trying to do trying to support Muslims impacted by the
55:40
uh by the French policies and more specifically the counterterrorism powers used by the state
55:46
what we're trying to do I'm not alone we're actually trying to uh train politically that new
55:52
generation the generation that I've mentioned uh earlier uh trying to uh uh instill in their mind
55:59
a uh degree of a degree of uh actually have to be proud of your of your Muslimness of your Islam and
56:06
so on and so forth and we're seeing that at times we don't even need to do that because it's already it's already there one of the consequences of a uh of deep persecution of stateless Islamophobia is
56:19
actually that part of the community regards its uh uh Muslimness as their uh key aspect of the their
56:28
identity something they cannot relinquish right because it's directly targeted by the
56:33
uh by the white supremacist system so it's a in a way it's a positive uh consequence of a
56:39
of an unfair of an unfair system so uh so that's essentially the kind of work that we're trying
56:45
uh that we're trying to do on the ground and uh and hopefully we'll be victorious in I'll answer
56:53
the way I answered last time is if we're not victorious in here at least we're victorious in the so we're not losing anything preser thank you so much for your time today thank you very much
57:08
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