Ep 231. - Gaza: Is The Tide Finally Turning? with Dr Azzam Tamimi
Is the tide turning? The sentiment in Europe suggests that criticism of Israel is increasing, even from those who have previously been staunch allies. Is this a genuine attempt to correct a past miscalculation, or is it a cynical effort to salvage a failing international system and protect tarnished reputations? At the same time, the protests, lobbying, narrative-building, and activism aimed at changing the political discourse raise the question: isn’t this, regardless of intent, a positive step?
I posed these questions to Dr. Azzam Tamimi, a veteran campaigner for Palestinian rights who has consistently defended the Palestinian cause. We spoke after a series of horrific, cold-blooded murders, while desperate civilians clamoured for food at the American-backed Gaza aid distribution centres. Are any of these political shifts truly affecting the realities on the ground?
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Transcript - This is an AI generated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
i want to talk to you today about whether the tide is finally turning at the popular level there is a shift they are not relinquishing Zionism they are not relinquishing Israel
0:10
very soon in France we will recognize Hamas imagine i'm not so concerned about the motives
0:16
but clearly this shift is helpful there's some conversation about maybe announcing a Palestinian
0:22
state the Israelis never had the intention of allowing a Palestinian state to exist zionism is a reincarnation of Nazism we did not perpetrate the Holocaust in Europe it was the
0:34
Nazis is the tide turning on Gaza the sentiment in Europe suggests that criticism of Israel is
0:45
increasing even from those who have previously been staunch allies is this a genuine attempt to
0:51
correct a past miscalculation or is it a cynical effort to salvage flailing international systems
0:58
and protect tarnish reputations at the same time the protest lobbying narrative building
1:04
and activism aimed at changing the political discourse raised the question isn't this
1:10
regardless of intent a positive step i pose these questions to Dr aam Tamimi a veteran campaigner
1:17
for Palestinian rights who has consistently defended the Palestinian cause we spoke after
1:23
a series of horrific coldblooded murders while desperate civilians clamorred for food at the
1:28
Americanbacked Gaza a distribution centers are any of these political shifts truly affecting the
1:36
realities on the ground dr tamimiah and welcome back to the thinking Muslim it's always a pleasure
Is the tide turning?
1:48
well thank you so much it's wonderful to have you with us and we're speaking on a day yet again of
1:54
another massacre at um one of the so-called food distribution centers that the West with Israel
2:01
have set up and um it just seems like now from our timelines things are going from worse to worse and
2:08
uh the intensity of the bombing uh on one level seems futile from a perspective of just bombing
2:15
buildings that have been collapsed and and are grains of salt but on another level the tragedy
2:22
is is immense and we've spoken maybe three or four times now over the last 18 months about the
2:28
political situation in Gaza and the humanitarian toll it's had on ordinary lives um maybe actually
2:35
before I start I want to talk to you today about whether the tide is finally turning uh on the
2:41
situation in Gaza but maybe on a on a more sort of personal level or you're a Palestinian and
2:46
you've been on the Palestinian activism scene for a very long time um personally I mean do you feel
2:53
that just from your interactions with ordinary people there is a palpable shift in the way they
3:01
appreciate and understand this crisis and the long crisis of of Palestinian dispossession
3:08
i think at the popular level there is a mark shift um not only that there is there's been
3:19
um a rise in the interest of people in the in the in the interest on beh on the part of people in
3:26
the history of the conflict so people are learning more uh trying to understand better what's going
3:33
on and then if you want to understand what's going on today you have to go back to what's triggered
3:39
all of this yeah so I think we we're seeing signs of this um social media is the best indicator of
3:48
course uh rallies demonstrations protests are also indicators the response of governments is
3:56
also a very important indicator because if you look at the Trump administration's response and
4:03
their attitude visav Harvard Colombia and other universities um that that you you you cannot but
4:13
you cannot help but conclude that uh the popular shift is annoying for them they're concerned about
4:22
it the same thing in much of Europe as well um so yes at the popular level there is a shift uh at
4:29
the official level there is a slight shift and also within the mainstream media the Financial
4:37
Times for instance over the past two weeks published two pieces um and if when the Financial
4:45
Times talks in this language that means this is representative of the uh of the establishment
4:51
somehow uh what we heard from the prime minister in this country from his foreign secretary from
4:58
some MPs uh I think they're coming under pressure they're coming under pressure from the public
5:06
uh from members of their party especially the Labor Party but also they're concerned
5:11
about the future of Israel i think that's the main concern yeah uh they don't do things or say things
5:19
because they have suddenly become very humane and very compassionate individuals but I think the
5:27
Zionist project which is their own project is in real jeopardy at the moment so I want to explore
Shift in Europe?
5:34
whether this is anything beyond just diplomatic gestures uh when it comes to the political level
5:41
the elites and how they're viewing this crisis or how they're viewing Gaza i mean there has been a
5:46
shift um especially here in Europe maybe it's less palpable and clear in in in America when it comes
5:53
to the elites so let's focus on Europe i mean France has threatened to levy sanctions on on the
6:00
Netanyahu government on on Israel uh Britain has done something very similar or at least has called
6:06
off trade negotiations i know they were very early stages but trade negotiations with Israel even
6:13
Germany probably the staunchest ally of Israel in in Europe has had some choice words about the way
6:22
the Netanyahu government is conducting uh this war norway sovereign wealth fund has blacklisted
6:29
uh some Israeli companies so we are seeing a shift in Europe and you quite rightly talked about how
6:34
uh that's reflective of maybe public opinion um is should we be embracing this shift or should we
6:42
uh question the motivations behind that no I think we should welcome it why question the motives i'm
6:50
not I'm not so concerned about the motives every person every institution have their own motives
6:58
yeah uh but uh clearly this shift is helpful it is helpful because it brings pressure to bear on
7:06
the Israelis and their supporters uh at the same time it reinforces the public uh mo mode uh sorry
7:16
the public mood and uh and the shift that we we're seeing among ordinary people now ordinary people
7:24
will say "Ah thank God that the government now is saying what we've been saying all along." Yeah uh
7:31
so I I think these these uh this this shift should be welcomed instead of digging for what is behind
7:40
it what's the point what's there's a massacre going on uh live on TV 24 hours a day 7 days
7:48
a week 30 days a month it's non It's unstoppable this non-stop uh non-stoping genocide and whatever
7:58
uh could bring this to a halt should be welcomed i I suppose what I'm trying to understand is whether
Genuine shift?
8:06
it's a genuine shift or whether it's just a another sort of tactical position i mean I think that the UK position is really interesting for a long time for 18 months of course the Kama
8:17
government David Lami as foreign secretary have been very strongly in favor of Israel's so-called
8:23
right to self-defense and things changed a couple of weeks ago and and then there was a far clearer
8:30
um antagonism I suppose a far clearer statements against uh the the way that Netanyahu's
8:38
prosecuting this war but at the same time we see that um I think 20 barely 24 hours later
8:46
uh Britain's trade envoy was in Tel Aviv you know praising uh the um uh the possible conversations
8:53
that they're having regarding trade u uh armaments are still being sold to to Israel like is there a
9:02
is this shift more tonal uh and aesthetic rather than real from your perspective well we shouldn't
9:12
uh see is we we shouldn't think of this shift as being a change uh in the western position visav
9:22
Israel uh they're concerned about what Netanyahu is doing but because this is going to harm the the
9:30
Zionist project this is going to harm Israel uh so they are not relinquishing Zionism right they are
9:39
not relinquishing Israel so one should not read more than should be read in what is happening so
9:49
it's just Netanyahu it seems it is Netanyahu and his uh governing coalition right this is
9:55
causing a a lot of concern real concern a genuine concern across the West uh simply because in the
10:05
eyes of the public it is very clear today who are the victims and who are the aggressors see
10:11
since the inception of the Zionist project uh it it has always been justified uh in terms of the
10:21
victimhood of the Jews and what happened to them in Europe today those who are uh claiming to be
10:29
doing things in the name of the Jews are the ugly actors they are the perpetrators of genocide they
10:37
are the criminals and the Palestinians are the victims so this is not easy to uh to cope with
Donate to Baitulmaal
10:46
this is your brother Mezin Mktar CEO of Bet on behalf of Bet's board and staff volunteers and
10:53
your beneficiaries I wish you and your loved ones a blessed holiday and a wonderful Eid as
10:59
we gather with our families to enjoy this holiday we pray that our brothers and sisters around the
11:05
world can enjoy the special day too this would be made possible by providing fresh meat to
11:11
families in need there is still time to provide your this month to these families in time to
11:18
celebrate there was the comment made by the UN uh human rights chief who's a British diplomat
UN statement
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uh two weeks ago at the UN I think it was a security council one of the one of the meetings
11:35
which really seemed to have an impact uh and um it it seems like a lot of what happened consequently
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especially here in Britain was a reflection of you know his very strident use of language and and he
11:49
used the word genocide for the first time i mean how important do you think uh that statement was
11:55
in in the sort of shift in opinion again these are very important statements and they should
12:01
be welcomed and the people who utter them should be uh thanked and appreciated yeah um but I think
12:10
uh people working for uh global institutions specifically the United Nations and its various
12:17
organizations they're worried that what Israel is doing what the Netanyahu governing coalition
12:23
is doing yeah is that they're undermining the international system the world order they're
12:30
undermining all these institutions which are supposed to be the product uh of uh the end of
12:37
the second world war in the hope that same atro atrocities would not be repeated uh not again
12:46
not in our name etc uh and I think they they are truly worried uh but something else has happened
12:53
since March by the way uh there was supposed to be a second phase in the hoodna or the truce that was
13:04
uh signed between Hamas and Israel it was Netanyahu who breached that agreement and who
13:12
decided not to go into the second phase as agreed and this could not be hidden from anyone this is
13:20
uh common knowledge uh and this is embarrassing they blame Hamas for for breaking that second
13:28
part of the negotiation the Israelis do but it's not true and the world knows it's not true
13:33
hamas did not violate that agreement in any way at all can you talk us through that because I
Ceasefire agreement
13:39
think it's a fascinating conversation to have so there are these two phases of the hoodna of the
13:46
peace agreement of the ceasefire agreement and the first one first stage was successful steve
13:52
Witkoff the American envoy who uh who managed to um uh to to get that over the line uh just
13:59
talk us through what happened exactly and why uh that cessation uh ended well the Americans at one
14:08
moment became very enthusiastic about mediating although they are not really uh honest honest
14:17
mediators or honest brokers uh but uh they sent the first envoy uh who met with Hamas directly and
14:27
this of course contravenes uh what the Americans and the Europeans have been saying that we don't
14:35
talk to terrorists etc so they sat with Hamas directly for the first time direct negotiations
14:42
and then he was sacked this envoy now Witkook also um had indirect talks with Hamas i I don't
14:51
have evidence that he met with anybody from Hamas but recently they sent a Palestinian American or
14:57
an American of Palestinian origin who sat with Hamas on behalf of the Trump administration and
15:06
uh managed to reach a deal uh and just 24 hours after they announced that they had a deal Hamas
15:16
agreed the United States of America was happy it brokered it the other mediators were also pleased
15:23
with this accomplishment the Trump administration changed their mind and Witco changed the terms of
15:31
the agreement and came up with something different and uh Trump announced uh that the ball now is in
15:39
Hamas's court because Israelis have accepted what we offered to them but Hamas has not well Hamas
15:46
cannot accept something that was not negotiated they went back to Washington and then probably
15:52
they communicated with the Israelis and the Israelis told them "Oh no no this is impossible we
15:57
cannot do it." So they changed the terms and now we are back to square one i mean how much of these
American negotiations genuine?
16:04
negotiations are actually genuine then i mean there was uh the uh Witkov proposal to uh uh in
16:13
exchange for release of the final American hostage there would be I think a 100 day pause to fight in
16:20
all I can't remember exactly the number I think it was 100 days uh but then Hamas accused Whitov
16:25
of being a dishonest broker because after that release um uh Israel was not b was not pressured
16:33
to to accept the ceasefire um ho how genuine do you think the Americans are in these negotiations
16:40
the Americans are deceitful right they are liars they don't speak the truth they don't keep their
16:47
word um they told Hamas that if you gave us the American hostage that will be good for you and we
16:57
will be able to achieve something and Hamas not out of weakness gave him up they really wanted
17:04
to do business uh but then as you just mentioned when he was home in America the Americans changed
17:13
their mind again uh so the Trump administration I I I really don't know what um might pressure
17:25
the Trump administration uh to do to to be honest and fair in their business dealing i really don't
17:32
know because you know Trump changes his mind every now and then not only on this issue on
17:38
all sorts of issues um but Hamas has learned the lesson and that's why uh they came out immediately
17:47
after changed the uh the terms of the agreement and said no this is unacceptable i mean you are
The Resistance
17:57
probably uh one of the most informed commentators on Hamas i mean you've written a book on the
18:03
subject and I know it's it's widely read and and recognized to be a a fair biography let's say or
18:09
a fair companion of of of Hamas and how he thinks in some of its leaders do you feel that Hamas has
18:17
conducted itself properly and with um in in in the most professional maybe that's the wrong word
18:24
but in the most professional way throughout this crisis especially it's its negotiation tactics and
18:31
its diplomatic effort i I must note that unlike the Israelis who try of course their propaganda
18:38
is now beyond the peril but unlike the Israelis who who uh are supposedly mastering or supposedly
18:46
have mastered the art of propaganda uh Hamas does not seem to have that level of spokesmanship maybe
18:54
in the international press um um anyway yeah comment on comment on sort of Hamas's uh Well
19:01
you don't hear we don't hear Hamas's voice often because they are prescribed right not only Hamas
19:07
even many Palestinians are prescribed including myself i used to be frequent commentator on the
19:16
BBC on Channel 4 on Sky occasionally on CNN i'm not invited by any of them anymore i think there
19:24
there is a policy adopted by the mainstream media not to give platform to anyone who expresses a
19:34
view that is contrary to what the Israelis would like the world to know or hear right um now given
19:43
the circumstances I think Hamas has been honest has been truthful has been fair in its dealings uh
19:54
but the balance of power is not in its favor right regrettably it's been relinquished not only by the
20:01
uh world order but also by the regional order by many of the Arabs and the Muslims around the
20:09
Arab world yeah uh so I I think people who will come after us people who will have uh access to
20:22
uh details of what really went behind closed doors uh will um speak well of Hamas that it did really
20:34
very well uh and and by the way in in negotiations the most important element is really honesty and
20:43
that's what the Israelis don't have and that's what the Americans don't have and even some of the Arab mediators don't have would you like to comment on I think it was yesterday where the
20:52
ex the former Biden spokesperson uh White House spokesperson Matthew Miller uh said for the first
20:59
time despite you know for months claiming that the Israelis were fighting a just war and and they
21:06
were not committing any formal crime he said for the first time that without a doubt uh he believes
21:12
that Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza um you know I again you know we're talking about
21:19
whether there is there are cracks in the dam here uh but at the same time you you can't but help
21:25
think that there are sort of a level of duplicity here you know you were a spokesperson for for an
21:31
administration that you know greenlighted this genocide and now you're you're speaking out like
21:36
comment on that on that apparent duplicity well you see once again I hope that his position is
21:42
genuine and I'm not in the business of uh digging for people's motives and inner intentions uh but
21:52
of course if you are in an official position in the in any US administration you have to to the
22:00
line right uh if you don't he will be kicked out and it happened uh occasionally yeah now that he
22:11
is no longer holding office um I I I would love to give him the the benefit of the doubt and uh
22:19
uh perceive this as a change of conviction on the basis of the evidence that he can now clearly see
22:28
uh without being pressured to go against it or to uh to say to things to the contrary yeah you
22:35
you've said I know your philosophy is not to seek motives but in a sense do you not think these uh
22:40
commentators are trying to rewrite history when the history books are written it's very clear that there was a genocide taking place he can then say well I did speak out I mean you know how how
22:51
much should we I'm a cynical person probably and you're less cynical but how how cynical should we
22:57
be with with people who have now after 18 months of genocide who have now spoken out well history
23:03
documents everything right so his previous positions would have been documented anyway
23:09
but again I welcome uh any change of position i welcome any change of tone right uh because it
23:17
serves justice irrespective of the motives and I think digging deep and deeper and deeper into the
23:25
motives serves no purpose france's position seems to be very strident there is a meeting that's um
France on Palestinian state
23:32
uh coni that's that's scheduled later this month where I think the British are attending where
23:38
there's some conversation about maybe announcing a Palestinian state um how useful is that and um
23:46
um you know can you comment on the position of Macron which has been you know and there is a
23:52
there is a shift and that shift is more palpable I think in France than say in Britain and Germany yeah any thoughts on on France well you see these governments are um in real predicament at the
24:04
moment because public opinion is shifting and they fear that there will come a time when they
24:12
are no longer in control um so there is a limit to how much you can ignore public opinion or go
24:22
against it so I I think probably this is a major a main incentive here right um I I remember uh a
24:31
long time ago after my book was published I was invited to uh and a meeting that brings together
24:41
uh what they call the elders former prime ministers for former senior officials in
24:47
various governments in the west and uh I met with a former um very very senior uh official
24:56
in the French government uh and who said to me that very soon in France we will recognize Hamas
25:07
imagine but of course uh he probably himself as an individual thought that was the trend
25:16
uh but I think uh these governments are mainly concerned about the status and the
25:24
future of the Zionist project um now recognizing a Palestinian state is something that the Israelis
25:33
uh hate to see happen but it's really of no value to the Palestinians i mean what's the point today
25:41
we're asking for an end to the genocide we're asking for an end to uh weapons supply uh to any
25:51
sort of support to this government in Israel that is perpetrating the genocide and if you declare if
25:59
you announce that you recognize the Palestinian state what will it what difference does it make
26:04
where is the Palestinian state there is no Palestinian state oslo was supposed to produce
26:11
a Palestinian state by 1998 but it turned out that the Israelis never had the intention of allowing
26:18
a Palestinian state to exist and then today at this moment in time and after all this genocide
26:25
in Gaza and all the uh other crimes perpetrated in the West Bank I think an increasing percentage
26:33
of public opinion is realizing that the problem is not having or not having a Palestinian state
26:41
the problem is with having a Zionist state the problem is Zionism zionism is a reincarnation of
26:50
Nazism israel is a reincarnation of the Third Reich i think the people are are are realizing
26:56
this i recently I attended what is known as the Gaza Tribunal in SV oh wow yes and uh you
27:05
you listen to these uh very prominent lawyers from America from various parts of Europe and the world
27:13
and the focus today is about what Zionism is and why this is happening to the Palestinians uh and
27:22
and I think we this is a trend that that is going to grow zionism is the problem so it's interesting
The worries of the West
27:31
i mean you've you've said it now a few times that they're really worried the West is really worried about the future of their colonial project of their Zionist project in in the Middle East
27:41
please talk to that like what is the worry here that what's agitating them to possibly
27:47
uh act or at least make these remarks about a Palestinian state or criticize Netanyahu
27:53
government explain that to us please you see the original idea of Zionism is to um create a secular
28:03
uh Jewish state in Palestine its presence in the heart of the Middle East and in the
28:10
heart of the Muslim world would be conducive to serving the interests of the western powers that
28:17
successfully managed to destroy the Ottoman Empire the last form of Islamic uh political
28:26
system m now increasingly this Zionism is becoming fanatical is becoming uh as they call it they call
28:37
it religious Zionism but actually a form of Zionism that is uh so illogical so intolerant
28:47
um and so literally messianic uh and whose aim is to claim Palestine the entire Palestine of its
29:00
inhabitants not only that to even expand into the other territories surrounding what is known today
29:08
as Israel they've been threatening Syria Jordan Lebanon even Saudi Arabia even Turkey they've been
29:17
threatening it so you see you see the parallel with Nazism this is what Hitler did uh initially
29:27
especially the government of this country at the time were willing to work with Hitler when they I think during the time of Chamberlain yeah yeah but then when he invaded Poland and when he
29:41
uh felt he was a sort of a diety that could just invade any part of the world and uh seize control
29:51
of it they started being worried and and this led to the Second World War zionism in Palestine is
30:01
only going to be to uh increase the uh potential and the likelihood for a major world war yes today
30:11
the people of Gaza are paying the cost are paying the price uh the people of the West Bank also as
30:17
well uh but very soon the entire world will uh will bear that cost and do you envisage a
The West’s values
30:24
time where just the project of an Israeli state the project of this colonial settlement in the
30:31
Middle East becomes too costly and and from an from a from a a perspective of the values that
30:40
the West profess uh the contravention is is so great so immense that they have to release
30:47
themselves in the same way Trump has released himself of some of these foreign entanglements
30:53
u yet Israel remains very strongly uh you know connected to his broader project do you think
30:59
there would be a time when the west would actually release themselves from Israel it is very possible of course so long as democracy is still alive this likelihood is there there is a potential for that
31:11
to happen because public opinion as we saw in the recent elections in in the UK can influence the
31:18
results of the elections uh on the basis of a a foreign uh issue rather than a domestic one yet
31:31
uh the change in the world position western the western world position visa v Israel will probably
31:39
be a consequence of a change in the balance of power regionally um if there is another eruption
31:50
uh among the Arab masses against their uh failing governments and these zionized ruling elites uh
32:02
that that will trigger also uh a change elsewhere in the world you've been very charitable when it
Ehud Olmert on Netanyahu
32:09
comes to uh the western sort of politicians and I get that you know there is a shift and one needs
32:14
to recognize that shift because that's what we've been calling for for the last 18 months ehoud
32:20
Elmut uh former prime minister of of Israel has also for the first time said that the Netanyahu
32:27
government has committed crimes war crimes in uh in in in Gaza in an article in Harets he said that
32:36
the Netanyahu government is an enemy within um do you likewise um see that statement to be positive
32:45
when it comes to ending this genocide well it is positive definitely irrespective of his motives uh
32:53
but uh we must understand here that when Almer says that Eud Barak also said similar things
33:01
and others as well they're saying this because they're seeing the danger posed to Israel as a
33:09
state and to Zionism as a project by the growing uh religious Zionist Zionist trend in in Israel
33:19
and it is no secret that the secularists and the fanat religious fanatics in Israel were always
33:29
at odds with each other i remember uh many years ago probably more than 20 years ago the economists
33:36
uh wrote uh a piece or published a piece about the likelihood of a civil war within Israel because
33:44
there were times uh when this tension was so high and people were worried that it could lead to an
33:53
explosion uh so Ahud Almer Ahud Barak and people like Abraham Borg uh and others are worried about
34:07
the project that this that the the trend that is led today by the likes of Benir and Smotri
34:17
eventually will destroy Israel itself so do you see a danger there i mean if if for example
Change in Israeli government?
34:23
because they've devastated they've destroyed Gaza but if there's a change an aesthetic change to
34:29
uh the um Israeli government that somehow the the the position the parlless position of of Israel
34:37
visav public opinion will will be reversed and Israel will once again uh command that
34:44
level of you know respect amongst amongst western populations i think the exposure that we have seen
34:52
of Israel and of Zionism is probably impossible to u to redeem to to remedy um I really don't know
35:04
it's difficult to talk about the future yeah uh but most certainly the image that most people see
35:13
today very clearly is that the Israelis are the aggressors and the Palestinians are the victims
35:20
and as I told you earlier more and more people are going back to history to see how it all started
35:26
and they are discovering that the Palestinians are being made to pay for the crimes of others
35:34
we did not perpetrate the Holocaust in Europe it was the Nazis it was the Germans not the
35:40
Palestinians yet we are told that the Jews should be compens compensated with a homeland in our own
35:48
land uh and I think people are realizing that this was a a major um injustice uh to
35:58
to a very big act of injustice against the Palestinians we spoke about public
Trump and US Muslims
36:07
opinion generally and and there is a shift in public opinion and US policy of course
36:12
Palestinian activism is particularly in the US is being criminalized like never before
36:17
i mean certainly the Biden administration clamped down on the student protest but what we're seeing
36:23
at this moment is unprecedented i mean just think about you know as you mentioned Harvard has been singled out and and the Trump administration uses anti-semitism or so-called anti-semitic
36:35
uh language as a reason to uh to withdraw funding uh to these elite institutions there are people
36:43
being detained at airports uh across the country you know foreign students are being arrested
36:48
um and uh and detained so there's a there's a frenetic anti-Palestinian activity I suppose on
36:56
uh when it comes to the US sort of federal level uh how should US Muslims deal with
37:03
uh and Palestinian activists deal with this uh this this unprecedented level of of
37:09
um intrusion well I believe Muslims Palestinians and Arabs in general who live in the United States
37:16
of America need to join hands with all the other Americans of different religions of different
37:25
backgrounds who oppose Zionism and who oppose the way the Trump administration is uh actually
37:38
bringing the war to America mhm uh the war at the moment is in Gaza uh but the Trump administration
37:48
insists on bringing it to America itself uh this administration is very unwise because it
37:55
is contributing to heightening the polarization within American society uh yes there are those
38:03
who support Trump no matter what he does or says but uh this will backfire and uh there will be an
38:11
increase in the number of people who will wake up uh and realize that this is most detrimental to
38:19
America uh Dr tamima do you think something has shifted in the Saudi position uh with regards
Saudi position
38:26
to Gaza and Palestine i mean you know for a long time we've been this show and and others have been
38:31
very critical of the Saudi position you know even the wearing of a cafe is banned in you know Omra
38:37
and Haj and you know police are overbearing on on those who who who wear it because it's so-called
38:43
a political statement uh but we have seen a shift uh from the foreign ministry there are
38:49
more critical statements being made today against the Israelis the Abraham Accords which was on the
38:55
cards until very recently Yeah is no longer spoken of and neither do the Americans really demand it
39:01
in the last meeting uh between Trump and and NBS you know the Americans were very lukewarm about
39:08
coercing or pushing the Saudis to to embrace the Abraham Accords so on the one level you've got
39:14
the UAE and you know the UAE is unfortunately as you you use the term Arab Zionist i mean I think
39:20
they they fit that that very very closely but but the Saudi position it has shifted is that how you
39:26
read it well the Saudis have been embarrassed by what the Israelis are doing right they were going
39:32
to sign the Abraham Accords one day before the 7th of October yeah and now it's very difficult
39:39
for them to proceed so they've been saying to the Americans and to the Israelis resolve this problem
39:47
first and then we can talk about joining in uh so it is in their best interests also to stop
39:55
the war to reach some sort of settlement they are not supportive of Hamas they are not supportive of
40:02
the Palestinian resistance uh but they feel they cannot proceed with peacemaking with Israel until
40:12
uh the situation has become uh more conducive to something like this and on a broader level
Measurement of Arab Street
40:20
of a Muslim world I mean again I was speaking to Abu Bakr Abid who is a Gaza journalist who's now
40:27
living in Ireland and he was very critical of just how placid I suppose Muslims are and and
40:34
in uh um demonstrating against their the complicity say of the Egyptian government
40:39
and its army or the Jordanian government its army uh how do you measure because you're someone who
40:45
visits Muslim countries you you you have a uh you know very strong uh uh experience or or you're
40:54
sensitive to the Muslim world how do you sort of measure where the Muslim world is you know
40:59
you hear stories of of those who escape Gaza and maybe a few hundred kilometers away they
41:05
visit a a mall you know in in Alexandria or Cairo and people seem to be oblivious to you know this
41:14
slaughter taking place a few hundred kilometers away h are you how do you measure I suppose the
41:20
sort of Arab street and where it is at the moment well the moment at the moment the Arab street is
41:25
absent yeah it's um completely it's really in a coma uh and that's because of the brutality
41:37
um methoded to um people who object by these uh regimes is it just brutality though or is there
41:47
a a a a wider malaise that because you know that brutality existed in 2010 it didn't stop
41:56
you know those coming out and demonstrating but what's changed i suppose is my question yeah no
42:02
I think the level of brutality is unprecedented really yeah u now Arab prisons today are full of
42:12
uh opinionated people or politicians activists human rights defenders uh the cream of the cream
42:21
in every society are really uh excluded they're banished they're behind bars uh now generally any
42:32
public anywhere in the world if you threaten them if you use uh brutal force against them they tend
42:42
to self-preserve uh and I and I think people are still it is still uh vivid in their memory
42:51
what happened in 2013 in Egypt how ra andda were burned where pe people were burnt alive in their
43:01
thousands uh for simply peacefully demonstrating against the coup um so people are worried uh but
43:11
uh this is like a volcano or this is like a volcano it's it it uh goes quiet for a while
43:20
but then when the the the necessary elements or factors are available it erupts again i expect
43:30
another eruption in the Arab world because people are seeing what's going on in Gaza and the West
43:36
Bank i'm sure that most of the Arab masses uh are very sad about this they would want to do
43:45
something about this but they are afraid they're afraid for their children for their welfare uh
43:53
etc uh but what is happening to the Palestinians is also happening to the Arabs around the region
44:02
in lesser degrees at the moment but that level of brutality could rise again right uh and uh
44:09
with the deterioration in the economy as well uh I expect another eruption sometime in the future
Egypt’s Army
44:16
how do you how do you see and observe the status of say the army in in in Egypt for example because
44:24
historically maybe going back 20 or 30 years there was an argument to say that the members
44:30
of the army you know were always the ruling elites were very careful about antagonizing rank and file
44:37
members even mid-ranking members because they came from the ummah they were part and parcel
44:43
of the sort of the the fabric of Arab society but we've seen over the last 15 years these armies
44:49
have been used in a horrible way as instruments of of death and torture rabio is an example of that
44:55
it was the army who who came in and and massacred just thousands of demonstrators um like is there a
45:03
is there a case to say that these armies are now beyond the pale when it comes to it's the armies who are who are currently um safeguarding Israel's interests on the Rafa border uh like just spell
45:14
out for me or explain to me what how you foresee how you see these armies i think some people were
45:21
under the uh impression that these armies could be of uh service to the um these armies are no
45:31
good and the um counterrevolution against the Arab Spring has proven that these armies don't
45:40
belong to the Ummah uh these armies were created in the first place by the colonial authorities
45:48
they founded all these modern armies and trained them and then after uh the so-called independence
45:57
which is not real independence really anywhere in the Arab region uh these armies became tools of
46:06
oppression and uh and a means of protection for the ruling elite whether it was a royal
46:14
family or a group of army officers or certain interest groups uh it is very clear today that
46:25
these armies are not uh capable of siding by the people they are the enemies of the
46:33
people everywhere and not only in Egypt or other surrounding uh countries because we do hear you
46:40
know I I agree with you i think they're enemies of people but you hear these sort of people arguing
46:46
that you know if only we could we could appeal to the better side of these armies then maybe they
46:52
could overthrow their governments or maybe they can come and intervene in in Gaza you know how
46:58
how realistic is that prospect there is no better sight yeah that's that's a myth it's an illusion
47:07
u and I think the Arab masses have learned the lessons that next time when there is an eruption
47:15
uh these armies will have to be disbanded this is what happened in Iran by the way the Iranian
47:20
revolution could not have succeeded without disbanding the army that protected the sha
47:28
uh and all the other various institutions you presented evidence to lawyers in this country
De-proscription of Hamas
47:35
uh who are looking to reverse the prescription of Hamas uh as a terrorist organization and that's
47:41
you know how it current where it currently is which means that um we have to be very careful
47:47
about how we talk about Hamas of course as an organization how likely do you think uh the home
47:54
secretary is ultimately it's down to the home secretary I bet Cooper how likely do you think this Labor government will reverse its position on Havas I really don't know how likely that is
48:04
but I think it's an effort that had to be made right um the former uh home secretary Patel uh
48:14
was clearly motivated by her strong ties with the Israeli leadership when it prescribed Hamas yeah
48:23
um the idea today is to inform the government that that decision was wrong uh it was wrong
48:35
for a number of reasons not least is that it goes against the interests of the British
48:42
government itself and the British public right my own presentation was about uh the nature of
48:49
Hamas and the fact that Hamas is an elected uh organization uh was elected by the Palestinians
48:59
uh it is trusted by the Palestinians it is it today speaks for the majority of the Palestinians
49:07
so it is it is a big mistake on the part of any government to continue to prescribe this such a
49:15
movement if that government wants to have a role uh in dealing with the problem dr tam we we've
Young Muslims
49:23
I'm wrapping up this conversation today it's been really really informative and and I just want to get your your perspective on a couple of issues um actually uh young Muslims in particular i I
49:35
communicate with lots of young Muslims across campuses in in the UK and I feel there is a a
49:40
palpable shift in their attitudes and and thinking about their future i mean you know going back even
49:47
20 years um the concern of young Muslims was very much you know me myself and I and it was this sort
49:54
of neoliberal capitalist sort of mindset that that instructed so many of them but the question I get
50:00
more often than not from young Muslims is how can I contribute we've seen this genocide what can I
50:06
do to stop it what can I do to broaden to to be part of this uh this this train to uh to address
50:15
these uh these issues of the Muslim Ummah there is this for one of a better term an umatic solidarity
50:22
that's springing up across across the West uh amongst young Muslims i probably do not provide
50:28
a very good answer to this question actually you know what can I do i mean how would you how would you answer answer that now in this country as well as in the west in general I think we are in a very
50:40
good position to contribute uh a valuable service to the cause and that is to join hands with those
50:48
who support uh the Palestinian cause sympathize with the Palestinians in their plight and further
50:57
enlightened public opinion about this issue mhm i don't think we are doing enough i think
51:02
we're doing very little yeah students on campus talking to their uh fellow students people's in
51:10
factories in companies wherever you are working you talk to your uh fellow workers or employees
51:17
whatever uh a Muslim to starting a conversation with their neighbors who happen to be Christian
51:26
Jewish Hindu Buddhist whatever or even atheist yeah the the more public opinion changes the
51:35
better are the prospects and the shorter will be the uh phase of this uh agonizing experience for
51:46
the people of Gaza we talk about a reckoning one day uh you know a reckoning when it comes to the
Reckoning in the West?
51:51
Arab rulers for sure but also reckoning here in the west there are so many complicit journalists
51:58
and political elites and these are people who have stuck with Israel despite I mean 18 months later
52:05
um saying a few choice words you know hasn't been enough of the majority of them and
52:12
uh they have really been behind this project at the detriment of their values and their prestige
52:17
and their position uh from a I'm not asking from a sort of Islamic perspective you know from our iman
52:24
um do you believe that one day there will be a reckoning uh on about what has happened over this
52:30
past 18 19 months I think every person uh will one day realize what he or she did right or did wrong
52:43
yeah now journalists are not in their majority uh pro-Israel or against the Palestinians but I think
52:53
the institutions they work in uh are uh imposing very strict control on the uh out on the output
53:05
on what is published or what is broadcast uh if you remember early on after the 7th of October
53:12
uh a good number of BBC employees resigned um but people w want to keep their jobs because they
53:21
because this is the source of their sustenance source of their living uh but increasingly they
53:27
are realizing that uh it is wrong what they're doing um uh and and therefore uh it is very likely
53:37
it is very possible that we will see this shift becoming even faster and faster in the coming days
53:44
my final question for you Dr tamimi is that and I asked you this question probably all the time but I think it's worth listening to your answer uh how do we how do we keep going like what is it
53:56
uh we've seen this genocide and it's it's excruciating and we now turn our heads away
54:01
when we see just the the massacres on a daily basis what is it um that keeps us going in in
54:08
this really bleak time well different people have different uh motivations uh different reasons why
54:16
they remain steadfast and resilient um but I think it helps to study uh previous experiences
54:26
that are similar to what the people of Gaza are going through the people of Vietnam went through
54:33
something similar the people of Algeria even the people of South Africa many nations in Latin
54:40
America Asia and Africa fighting for their freedom and dignity eventually they succeed eventually
54:49
they regain their freedom and dignity uh of course for me as a Muslim there's a much bigger incentive
54:58
and that is uh my obligation as a Muslim to stand by justice and truth and to give all it takes in
55:07
order for justice and truth uh to be victorious maybe I have got one last question and and
Qadr of Allah
55:13
actually we had this conversation off camera and I really loved your answer the last time round um
55:20
uh back to that young Muslim question about you know uh about how to in a way configure one's life
55:26
uh to be uh to to utilize that life for a higher cause um I think you it struck me when I asked you
55:33
this question off camera last time that you talked about how very little in your life was planned
55:40
uh and and so much of it came but by chance or of as we would say as Muslims can you just talk
55:45
to that because I think I found that answer very interesting indeed there were so many things I wanted to do in my life um I never managed to do them because Allahh chose for me something else um
55:59
and uh I think it's not just my life most people's lives are like that if if we if we look back
56:07
um and uh try to see the turning points focus on the turning points in our lives many of these
56:14
turning points were not out of choice um and uh that's why it's important to be content uh and
56:24
also never be uh desperate never lose hope and the example I usually give is that if you're if you're
56:32
walking down a road and then that road is blocked that shouldn't be the end of your march you have
56:39
to look for an exit somewhere some somewhere uh you go right you go left you turn around you go
56:47
back a little bit and then change your position um sometimes we are very eager to achieve a certain
56:56
uh result but it is the will of Allah that we will never be able to achieve it so no
57:04
need to be despondent and be miserable just be content and move move forward even if in
57:13
slightly different direction dr tami Jizak thank you so much for your time today you're welcome
57:24
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