Ep 273. - Is Saudi-Israeli normalisation over? | Dr. Abdullah Salman Alaoudh
Today on The Thinking Muslim, we are joined by Abdullah Aloudh, son of Shaykh Salman Aloudh, who is currently on death row. Abdullah joins us to discuss the new Saudi Arabia, what has changed, what has not, and how authoritarianism continues to expand beneath the surface of reform. You can find Abdullah Aloudh here: X: https://x.com/aalodah
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Transcript - This is an automated transcript and may not reflect the actual conversation
Introduction
0:00
Of course, your father is a well-known dissident. I believe he's still on death row in Saudi Arabia. NBS now is a pressure cooker. He once said to my father, he said,
0:09
"Politics are ruled by fear, not love. Do you worry about your own safety by alienating a lot
0:15
of segments within the Saudi society? He's pushing a lot of people to be dissident." This week we
0:22
have Abdullah Ala son of the famous Imam and sheh Shehikh Salman aloud who talks to us about the new
0:28
Saudi Arabia and its growing authoritarianism. The Saudi Arabia still use the Pegasus software
0:35
the Israelis have supplied them. Governments and dictators say shock therapy to society in
0:41
order to to bring it to enlightenment. They are betting on power alone not betting on the people.
0:50
I'm here with Abdullah Oda, a Saudi dissident here in Washington DC. Abdullahumah and welcome back to
0:57
the thinking Muslim. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to uh be in person today. I'm
1:06
really I think I'm very fortunate to to be here with you in person here in Washington. Um the
1:12
last conversation we had, I mean, who would have known? uh we received almost half a million views
1:18
and subhan Allah it seemed like it gained a lot of traction amongst not just Saudis but actually
1:23
Muslims around the world. Um and did you believe at the time that uh you know a a conversation
Impact of previous video
1:30
about in effect Saudi politics uh would have had such a reaction from from all from all around the
1:38
world. Uh well I I know there was a hunger to um understanding the the Arab Peninsula and the
1:46
people of the Arabian Peninsula. Yeah. Uh but uh no I did not uh think did not know that this uh
1:55
would be that level of interest of the people. But that's to be honest a very good sign that people
2:01
are really really um uh happy and and and uh hungry to understanding the situation and follow
2:12
the situation. That's part of what we always talk about which is the um and uh the Muslim countries
2:19
around the world and you know how we all are uh we all are uh well connected. I use the word of
Saudi Dissident
2:27
the term Saudi dissident in in uh introducing you and of course you are a son of probably one
2:33
of the most famous scholars who now is in prison in in Saudi Arabia. Um do you bristle at the term
2:41
Saudi dissident or do you embrace it? I embrace it. Uh I find it uh okay um for many reasons but
2:49
I'll be brief. Uh one is that um I I think the problem with the uh Muslim dictatorships with
3:01
with uh authoritarian regimes in the Arab world uh is that they want to um antagonize against
3:09
the idea of having an opposition. antagonize and and uh basically criminalize the idea of having a
3:18
different thought, different opinion uh which is against what um Islamic even history uh against
3:26
Islamic principles as they see it uh and against the basic morals and understandings of human
3:33
rights. In our last show, in our last discussion, we uh you commented on Saudi foreign policy and in
Saudi and Palestine
3:40
particular uh its its perspective on Palestine. The Saudis still see the Palestinian issue to
3:47
be at best a bit of a nuisance and and they don't quite uh uh hold that level of solidarity towards
3:55
the Palestinians that the people of Saudi Arabia do and and certainly the people of the Muslim Ummah do. Uh but we have seen a stronger tone against Israel. We have seen the Doha attacks.
4:07
You know, the Saudis were very quick in responding and condemning uh those attacks. We've seen um
4:14
uh uh announcements about various actions in Gaza uh from the Saudis that have used
4:22
quite harsh language against Israel. Do you think that that this amounts to anything a shift in in
4:28
in perspective in any way or is it still within that sort of slightly cynical um you know Saudi
4:36
trying to play to public opinion but actually not much more than that? Yeah, that's what I think
4:42
the latter uh and why because of uh things that preceded that. Yeah. which is one uh for example
4:52
um the uh like Byam Netanyahu once said um there like Palestinians should go somewhere else and he
5:04
mentioned three places including Saudi Arabia. Uh and after that moment, Saudi Arabia issued uh like
5:13
like a really harsh statement um and and fierce language uh as it should be. Um uh but this tells
5:23
you that only when they mentioned places in Saudi Arabia because they still think about the the
5:31
uh ultranationalistic idea and understanding and trying to separate this ois trying to and I think
5:41
uh failing miserably to uh separate the Sudis from understanding the issues beyond their borders
5:49
beyond their borders including the Palestinian issue and um uh and when they got the message from
5:59
the Israelis that they're no longer uh interested in normalization. And thirdly, I think the the the
6:09
calculations um in the Israeli mind that um you know again if they have to choose between the
6:19
deterrence doctrine uh uh presenting strength. Yeah, they think long term that can help them
6:28
bring these small countries around to have them as protectorate this time uh not by the only the US
6:38
but also by Israel. That's what some people in the security you know um would say sector in Israel
6:48
think that um presenting the strength of Israel uh can help even long-term normalization while if
6:57
you present if you pursue this normalization despite everything uh the message that these
7:03
countries will get is that um oh yeah we have do you have to do more concessions and all that and
7:08
are not ready to do anything and they're not willing to do any of that. So that's part of the calculations that the Saudi like they get the message and everything and how the Israelis even
7:17
treated them. Uh so why would they pursue that? So the language is like of some it's it's a language
7:25
of somebody who basically was left to either do that and at least pretend to care or you know
7:38
uh still left out by everybody including your own people who care about Gaza. I think so. What NBS
7:45
chose, which is good at least, um is to use a language that uh kind of respond to the moment.
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MBS and New Syria
9:06
NBS has also been engaged in uh in actively in regional diplomacy and and this actually
9:13
also includes um diplomacy with uh organizations that traditionally u Saudi Arabia would not have
9:20
engaged with Islamist you know groups and and I'm particularly talking about um how NBS has really
9:27
worked with uh to bring Ahmed al- Shara out from the code and to to create a normalization of the
9:34
Syria in the minds of the west. Of course, there was that famous meeting in between our conversations between Trump where Trump said, you know, he he respected Shah as the strong man
9:45
uh and admired him. And of course, just yesterday, we're in Washington, but in New York,
9:51
uh Ahmed Shara is is at the United Nations. He gave a talk today and yesterday you know he was
9:57
at a a very important forum with General Proteus Proraeus as as the uh as the uh uh the presenter
10:04
as the as the the host. So there seems to be and and a lot of that I think happened as a result of
10:10
uh the the diplomacy of NBS like what's going on there? Why is NBS who was a very strong proponent
10:17
of Assad at one point and and bringing Assad into into out of the cold and and and back into into
10:26
uh the public and and international sort of limelight? Why is uh why is he so uh uh intent
10:35
on on salvaging the reputation of the new Syria? Well, let's dissect that into understanding Saudi
10:43
Arabia's relationship to Assad in the last year uh you know before assets fall and then now and
10:54
if you listen if you if you if you um follow the you know events at that time Saudi Arabia actually
11:02
just less than a year before uh the fall of the Assad regime uh not just lobbyed and pushed and
11:11
forced uh Assad into the Arab summit. He was welcomed uh embraced in the arm of NBS. There
11:23
was a famous actually uh picture portray it uh of the two standing in Riyad for the first time after
11:30
years and years of isolation. um uh basically normalizing Assad's regime and dictatorship. Um
11:40
and uh it was a moment that Saudi Arabia wanted to even uh go beyond that uh if it were not for
11:47
the rebels who captured um Damascus. Uh so but at the same time we have to be fair. Yes. S if
11:58
it were up to Sabbia, they wanted uh less of Assad because they wanted um basically to break that I
12:09
would say the what they called the resistance um crescent uh in the Arab world like Iran,
12:17
Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and part of that. So they wanted to uh break it up and um they saw Syria
12:27
as as a central I would say uh piece into this puzzle uh and wanted to and they have always
12:35
wanted to uh do that. And when this happened, they embraced it because despite all the differences
12:42
uh and and all the reservations, this for them is a moment where they can and and bet to u embrace
12:55
and push for him. Uh in the in the understanding in the I would say hope that uh this will mean uh
13:07
co-opting um Ashar's leadership and bringing it you know in the arms of Saudi Arabia and
13:15
became like so be become more influential in Syria's uh foreign policy. I think
13:22
that's that's basically the calculations and um that's part of it and I don't think they also
13:33
didn't know or ignore the fact that he became from an Islamist background. Yeah. But what they
13:41
are betting is that he will u act as a politician more than an Islamist. And uh you know he will be
13:52
more of a pro pragma pragmatist uh like MBS MBS himself came from uh what once Kashuki
13:59
called the mother of the all Muslim like Islam Islamist movements Wahhabism at one time u and
14:07
he is now MBS. So that's what they are hoping to push for and present the thinking Muslim.
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15:09
Now looking at um the domestic scene in in Saudi Arabia, of course your father is a is
15:15
a is a well-known dissident and he is currently in prison. We have seen reports of scholars being
Release of political prisoners
15:21
quietly released by the regime over the last few months. Um I mean is is this a promising sign,
15:28
a recalibration maybe in in Saudi Arabia? How do you interpret what's happening? Well,
15:33
it's it's good that you observe in that and you seen the the change in that. I think there are two
15:39
um I would say uh phenomena that I have to um present here. one. Yes. Um I have myself and we
15:50
have at Middle East Democracy Center uh documented the releases of people. I've talked to people
15:55
on the ground. We talked to lawyers. Um and from what we gathered uh there were at least like 5,000
16:04
um political prisoners. Uh we think that at least a thousand of them like 1/5if have been
16:10
released which is a yeah it's it's a good number. I think it's it's a good progress.
16:16
Uh and uh yes, some of them from the scholastic uh background, some of them were like, you know,
16:25
people who just tweeted things and silly stuff. Uh and um uh but at the same time,
16:32
there are 4,000 or or a bit less uh left behind, including of course my father. Uh by the way,
16:40
one of the people who were released uh was actually not other my other than my uh uncle.
16:47
Yeah. Uh that I think mentioned in our last Yes. So he was released and Moen this time next time
16:54
we have the interview I will talk about my father who is u inshallah free. So that that's one one
17:01
uh phenomenon. Uh the other one is the level of executions. So yes, I'm trying to be fair
17:09
talking about this progress. Uh although we hoping for for a much bigger, you know,
17:14
approach towards releasing people and closing the whole file of arbitrary detention in Saudi Arabia.
17:21
that the however the other phenomenon is is also not less fascinating which is the level
17:30
of executions that we witnessing in the kingdom that is skyrocketing. Um like for example this
17:39
year alone so far we have 240 people just until like this year like from beginning of January
17:48
until August. It's it's a it's a record number in the history of the Arabian Peninsula. Uh they
17:56
just less than two months ago or three months ago executed Turk Jaser was a journalist like Kashukji
18:03
this time like in court judicially instead of extrajudicially like they did to Kashukji. Um and
18:11
um I it's it's just mindboggling to see that they they never given up on brutality. It's like, well,
18:21
you're releasing people. Why? Why you That's That's just weird with how dictators think. Uh,
18:29
and I think it's um it just shows that shows us that we should not always rely on the good intent
18:37
or good will of these dictators. Should always keep the pressure going. we should always rely
18:43
on us, you know, keeping them on check uh until we remove them from power, of course. Uh because
18:51
that's for me the ultimate, you know, uh but but the the thing is yeah, he's executing the record
19:00
number of people including Abdullah. I mentioned I want to mention Abdullah here because I know
19:07
this guy personally. Um he was one of the analyst who by the way worked in Turkey on Turkey. Uh he
19:15
was a Saudi diplomat in Turkey. He was given the presidential award by the Turkish leadership. Uh
19:22
he was a facilitator between the relationship between the two countries and followed by
19:29
thousands of people. Um there was a time when he actually talked about his relationship to NBS,
19:36
how he translated things uh to the king during NBS's present. He said that online uh and then
19:43
he was uh detained in 2021 and executed last year. Um because of they said high treason. It's
19:52
just a as broad as this. No mention of details or story or nothing. It's just like it it's obviously
20:00
uh a madeup story like trumped up charges uh like the charges that they you know made up for so
20:09
many dissident uh activists and not even activists like people that they want to you know execute in
20:15
the kingdom. Why do you I mean you're here in in Washington DC and you interact with policy makers from both the left and right. Why do you think that Saudi Arabia in a sense gets a free pass
20:25
still when it comes to its uh domestic repression? I mean it is the case that Saudi Arabia has still
20:32
has a very of course a very strong relationship. We know why that is the case but but but also
20:38
a it's not given in the media in in the sort of general political circles. It's not given
20:46
uh that level of um of uh of anger of you know of criticism that you would find with like states
20:54
that are authoritarian states other authoritarian states that may exist in the region like what is
20:59
it about Saudi Arabia that still makes it gives it that free pass. So I think the basically money and
21:06
level of influence. I want to give you one example like very recent example just today published a
21:13
commentary uh on the comedians who are going to Saudi Arabia uh beginning on Friday. Uh comedians.
21:26
Yes. Most of them actually American comedians including people that I always uh like and always
21:33
uh laugh at their jokes and standup uh comedy. Um Louis CK uh Russell Peters uh what's his
21:45
name? Glacius Sky, you know. Uh I wouldn't know. I don't think Americans are so funny. So I don't
21:54
I would say this is not biased uh by you of course uh but also include people like uh include like
22:03
people from the UK actually. Yeah. Um and it's it's it's just um sad. One of them actually Delon
22:18
one of them like mentioned uh in a podcast uh that he was offered 350,000 for just one you know show
22:29
and you know just to give you a glimpse of how big this is like an average show like this in the U in
22:37
the US is like 35 50 uh 60 70 maximum if if it's too good but they were given 350 uh and he said
22:50
in the show he said I know people who were given even like millions uh like a million or a million
22:56
something over one show you know the the the funny part about this I don't know if this is a joke or
23:02
not um uh and he was not kidding about it um to use Mandy's you know phrase uh that that he said
23:16
he was going he took it really and he said yeah he said uh I know it's blood money I don't care
23:23
it's not because I he said he said not because I I'm paraphrasing of course he said not because I
23:29
care less but because I was offered a lot a lot of money and I'm more honest and straightforward than
23:35
a lot of them who pretend to care and pretend to be principled and and then do the same thing that
23:42
I did. Yeah. Um so what I like what we offered to them what we asked them to do and the humor watch
23:52
also issued a report I think yesterday or the day before the in which they asked these comedians to
24:00
speak up. They said okay at least if you're going there we know it's blood money but at least speak
24:06
up and say something um about what you care about. So yeah, that's basically why they
24:14
uh uh uh bend over backward to uh I don't know if that's a phrase that you can use in this podcast.
24:21
Yes. Uh to to to um this the Saudi leadership and and I want to say also few things. It's
24:30
it's one an orientalist understanding of Saudi Arabia and the Saudi people and the Saudi and
24:36
the Arab people and Muslim people generally. Yeah. that they are backward and only quote unquote an
24:43
enlightened leadership that aligns with their understanding of what social reformer should
24:50
look like can bring them up to the standards of theirs. Um and uh this idea of uh benevalent
25:01
uh autocracy that an autocrat um a dictator who uh does what propagandist of these governments and
25:12
dictators say a shock therapy. Yeah. Uh to society in order to to bring it to enlightenment to the
25:20
age of enlightenment to the modern society. Like if the problem is the people actually and that's
25:26
what we have been you know uh saying all along that's what like that's why I'm big believer
25:34
in the people and I think uh we should not play into the hands of these dictators by just you know
25:40
taking their narratives about our own people. Yeah um like if it's like it's true. Tell me about the
25:47
Saudi people because of often the impression we get of Saudis is that they've taken this line you
Ordinary Saudis
25:55
know of the government hookline and sinker I mean they are involved they're going to the comedian
26:02
shows they're going to the entertainment shows you know in a in a in a way they've been their senses
26:07
have been dulled by these entertainment by the entertainment industry that has you know developed
26:13
over the last few years. U so the impression we get maybe incorrectly from outside we're falling into the same orientist trope maybe we get is that you know the Saudi people are are in line with
26:24
uh the government and and would like to live in an ignorant bliss I mean you've you obviously
26:30
grew up in the country you know you tell us a little bit about the ordinary Saudi absolutely
26:36
so one thing it's there is a phenomena that we used to call in Saudi Arabia um I'm trying to
26:45
translate because it was of course said growing up in Arabic and my Arabic is so bad that uh we
26:53
have the people who go to concerts and wants to go to these things and have fun. Uh the religioity of
27:07
this scholar is above your head. Uh but also you want to have fun. Um what once I think Ali Wardi
27:16
said if the like a lot of Muslims were uh left to choose between secularism and Islam uh they would
27:28
vote for Islam and go live in a secular society or something like that. It's it's it's the thing that
27:35
they believe in. It's what they have faith in. uh sometimes they have you know practices that
27:44
can be compatible or incompatible. Um but it is I think for me even more dangerous to force things
27:53
into society without allowing them to choose. Um that's one and two to basically try to manufacture
28:05
this imposed what they called liberal uh uh you know uh practices. I don't think they are liberal
28:14
practices by the way but let's for the sake of argument call them as such. Yeah. Uh like force it
28:19
into society and impose it while at the same time be very very repressive politically, socially and
28:26
even religiously. Yeah. Um, this this dynamic basically is the recipe for creating a society
28:37
that is, by the way, still very conservative in nature in in in theory, in understanding, but
28:44
also feeling this paradox, feeling this dichotomy, uh, feeling this problematic like internalized,
28:55
um, I would say uh, uh a problem where sometimes they let it out through uh improper means. Um
29:10
uh basically I would say if it's I mean if the like if you ask me I would think this the
29:17
majority of people do not like the government. Yeah, but if you ask me why they are they look
29:23
like they're happy, if I were there, I would I may go to a cinema movie, would that mean that
29:29
I'm less of a dissident? No. But because it was, you know, allowed. So the issue is like for for
29:35
a lot of the these people is the calculations that natural calculations that went into their head is like revolting like could lead to a worse situation. So that's one. and two, revoling would
29:50
need the ability to revolt. And that's by the way, that's why it's even more dangerous um because
29:59
this repressive policy would lead to the people uh basically waiting on this uh I would say quote
30:10
unquote right moment. Um and then when it when it does revolt, it may lead to different things that
30:18
we may not even like. Uh so that's that's how it's um it's bad and that's why even regimes
30:25
like them before like the Bashar al-Assad or others uh did is like a CC and like they choose
30:36
the they choose repression every time even though they know it probably going to lead to the worst
30:47
when they leave because for them. They're just protecting their era and after that it could lead
30:55
to hell. They could not care less. A jahim. Maybe I should have asked you this question previously,
MBS Ideological commitment
31:01
but I want to know about has MBS moved beyond this sort of ideological commitments he has,
31:09
you know, towards Israel, towards America and to a more transactional phase in in his statecraft.
31:15
And you know are we to see that uh the kingdom is genuinely looking to other partners maybe eastern
31:23
partners I'm thinking more China uh here as an example I mean one of the back to that I question
31:29
about Pakistan one of the analysts I read about that Pakistan defense parties of course Pakistan
31:34
is a very good route into uh Chinese uh defense architecture right so um what's going like do do
31:42
you foresee that there is a a maturing at least of of of relationships beyond the west when it
31:49
comes to Saudi Arabia. Well, we get that question a lot. Um and they call it the the like pivot into
31:57
uh the east or China or Russia moment. Um uh the Biden administration uh actually a lot used that
32:07
line to say that's why we are embracing Saudi Arabia uh when we once called it pariah state
32:14
and and and trying to uh when we said once we're going to treat it like the pri is and then now
32:21
we're embracing it. uh that's part of the you know narrative that they presented and that's part of
32:28
actually Biden's even piece that he published uh uh the Washington Post at that time to justify
32:36
his visit to Saudi Arabia. Yeah. Uh so now we we look at this idea of pivoting to China or Russia
32:44
from the Saudi perspective. Is it genuine? Is it true? Uh is it a long-term thing? Is it um a more
32:52
profound uh understanding or approach toward this security dynamics in the region? I think it's not
33:02
uh one uh I just want to quote the current uh ambassador to Turkey, an envoy to Syria,
33:13
uh Tom Bareric, who by the way was once indicted as a UAE lo lobbyist here in Washington. She's
33:21
funny. Uh anyway, so this guy, UAE guy, if we may say, uh was asked uh whether uh you know the US is
33:33
going to be an always ally to the west and others. And he literally said what a lot of people in the
33:42
field say that uh the US uh has no permanent friends but has permanent interests. Um and
33:53
uh you know so they are looking at Saudi Arabia as a treasure as a as a you know oil refinery. Uh but
34:06
from the Saudi perspective uh he was asked about this pivoting to China Russia. So he analyzed the
34:13
Saudi perspective. He said we know they say this a lot meaning like the Saudis the UAE and others
34:18
say that a lot. we going to China or Russia if you didn't give us this or that or security guarantees
34:24
or F-35 or other things. Um and then the the the pivot to China or Russia was actually um you know
34:37
a a thing that they always say. So he said we know they are not genuine about it. We know they are
34:42
not going to do it. We know they are like just basically uh bluffing if I may say. Yeah. It's
34:51
part of their maneuver in order to force the uh US into giving them more uh into allowing them to
35:01
do more. Uh and I think to be honest um to some extent some people in the in the you know um in
35:11
Washington here buy it. Yeah. And a lot don't including Tom Beric as he said now he said we
35:18
know they're not genuine they're not going to do it right and it will take them not days or months
35:23
or years take them decades to just pivot probably one section of their uh security infrastructure
35:32
uh to the east in order to make it function let alone the whole you know military infrastructure
35:38
for example for Saudi Arabia that like a a military that is built wholly on the US and the
35:45
West. Uh it's it's functionally almost impossible at least in the next I would say 40 years to quote
35:55
unquote pivot to China or Russia. This is not to say it's a right moment or like a wrong moment.
36:00
It's practically speaking. And I was just talking to um a Saudi Air Force officer, like an ex Saudi
36:08
Air Force uh officer about this and he literally said the following. He said um for just you know
36:17
maintaining an equipment. Yeah. Uh it would take a lot of money and uh a lot of caring from the
36:26
original source from the from US um you know uh people to fix things or maintain them just in one
36:37
uh you know one use of of uh you know you know a military equipment let alone the whole you
36:49
infrastructure. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about vision 2030. I mean um it it in many ways is the
Vision 2030
36:57
source of Saudi legitimacy. Um but vision 2030 is in some sort of some strain at least you know
37:03
politically, economically uh socially it it doesn't seem to have um gained that level of
37:10
traction uh that that it was meant to. Uh the neon project has been scaled back and you know
37:16
the rest of it. So like you Is vision 2030 now just a you know redundant or does it still have
37:23
life? Uh so I think first of all I don't want to call it a legitimac because legitimacy from what
37:32
I understand is a more profound ground for a a state to be established and to be founded. Um and
37:45
uh I I think I mean if it's if it's if it's a source of legitimacy for the Saudi government,
37:51
what what are they going to do after 2030? You know, NBS in 2016, he said by 2020 we're going
37:58
to be able to live in Saudi Arabia without oil. And look at us now 2025, Saudi Arabia
38:05
is not even more dependent on oil than today in all levels. Um and uh the the lack of cash,
38:13
the lack of liquidity, the u stock market in Saudi Arabia is in in in a in a record
38:21
uh bad place. Uh right now the you know the the cash for for all these mega projects to
38:30
take a place and to be able to you know uh happen uh is lacking. and and and right now
38:39
uh you know the example that everybody gives right now is uh the line project
38:46
which was proposed to be 270 kilometers and right now it's like 3 kilometers. It's not
38:52
even 1% of the original plan. So, right, you're right. There's a what they called uh basically
39:05
I would say a tamed expectation of what the project if we are going to be also like very
39:13
generous with them. Um but at the same time um they did not give up the vision 2030. They're
39:21
still talking about it. they think it's an idea to bring everybody together and it's
39:26
MBA is basically master plan and for him uh in the beginning I think he was trying to um materialize
39:38
something something on the ground they can that can that that can make him a hero. I think by now
39:45
he realized this is not going to happen and what makes can make him a hero is basically uh playing
39:53
on the image. uh basically not making things happen on the ground but on the uh online space
40:02
in which he can promote as something happening and and also play on other things including by the way
40:09
what they called the pressure on the Palestinian state because they know the Palestinian issue is very popular among the Saudis. Uh we hear in the past few weeks that oh Saudi Arabia is actually
40:20
doing um a lot to Palestine uh to the degree that one of my like funny friends called it he said
40:30
NBS now is a pressure cooker. He's a pressure in all states around the world to do this. They talk
40:36
about the pressure all the time. It's it's what's rendered right now every day in Saudi Arabia. was like, oh, what they call the the Saudi pressure, meaning look what the Saudi pressure
40:46
uh made every country uh who recognized Palestine to do so. Uh and therefore they're trying to say,
40:55
"Oh, look now we care for this uh issue." I hope this is the case. I'm not saying, "By the way,
41:00
this is not the right direction." But again, like pretending to love and pretending to care
41:09
is is for me good progress toward the right direction. Wait, wait, wait. If you like this
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41:16
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and subscribe to the Thinking Youth podcast. Thank you very much. Now back to the show. We titled our
41:55
last episode something in like Gaza will bring may bring down the for Saudi uh Saudi state and um uh
MBS grip on power
42:03
what you've described today of the Saudi people of the people of the country. There is this you know
42:09
ground swell of opinion that's pro Palestine that hates what's happening in Gaza and feels for our
42:15
brothers and sisters in Gaza. Um, I'm just trying to marry, you know, all of what you've said today
42:22
with, um, the idea that has MBS really lost grip on power? Because it seems to me from out from
42:29
from an outsiders perspective, and I don't follow it as close as as you do, um, MBS has really got
42:35
a very strong grip on on power in Saudi Arabia. And that doesn't seem to be at least internally an
42:42
organized movement. uh and of course with all the caveats that it's very difficult to gauge right
42:47
but there doesn't seem to be an internal movement or at least he's dealt with uh those pockets of
42:53
disturbances those challenges uh in Saudi Arabia like talk to me about is there really a uh a an
43:03
avenue here like Assad and like others is there an avenue here for this regime to fall? Well,
43:10
uh, two quick points. I I don't know when I say quick points, I don't know if they're going to be quick, but I'm trying. You're welcome. Uh, so one is um if you ask Syrians and I have by the way,
43:27
one Syrian friend I don't want to name because now he has a position in the Syrian government.
43:32
uh asked him few weeks swear to God before the fall of the asset and I asked him he said we don't
43:38
think this is going to happen and he said um at the end we're looking at the assets that that is
43:44
going to be normalized in the you know uh in the Arab world and uh we're just trying to get as much
43:52
as we can u from the current moment and then weeks later because why because the acid reg acid regime
44:01
uh had all the things against them but they are betting on power alone. Not betting on the people,
44:11
not betting on the social structure, not betting on institutions, not betting on you know
44:17
neighboring countries, not betting on basically betting on the wrong things. Um and Maldun
44:23
once said uh you know for uh you know polity to continue you need uh a ground of what he called
44:37
right now we call it legitimacy or solidarity. That's why I think legitimacy is more profound than a plan or a vision. It's it's a it's a ground where you make where you have the people
44:48
where you you you let the people have faith not in you personally but in the institutions in the
44:54
government in the system of policy in the system of uh understanding this relationship between
45:00
the ruled and the ruler. Yeah. That's what even legitimacy in the eyes of the jurist historically
45:07
uh right um that's why they why they studied this um so again going back to NBS so this idea that
45:21
um uh he has a strong uh grip on power I think it is superficial not the you know that He like I
45:34
mean he's super it's superficial in the sense that he silenced everybody but this is very
45:43
dangerous actually it means just postponing the implosion I think is that the right word um uh
45:53
postponing the crisis uh and uh making people uh fearful and uh he once said to my father he
46:02
said I think polities are ruled by fear not love um and I I think he believes it and he he quotes
46:11
um Mavi I don't know if rightly or wrongly I always think wrongly but you know regardless
46:19
the the thing is he thinks that fear alone uh can can make people you know um go away and I disagree
46:32
and that's why I am a dissident. I mean the thing is that's one factor alone. The other things is
46:40
uh I think by like by alienating a lot of segments within the Saudi society he's pushing a lot of
46:49
people to be dissident that are not traditionally. So I mean like royal families like like we have
46:57
allies in in in the family itself. We have allies in in different segments of Saudi society. We have
47:04
like allies are not traditional allies. Just today was talking to a former minister of state
47:10
uh who was alienated and he was like just complaining and talking about these things and ideas and he was thinking about even a lawsuit. Um so talking like all these things leads to
47:24
uh at the end and I think eventually uh the much you alienate the like the much you alienate people
47:34
the the the the the ch like the better chances uh to basically get um at the end in trouble I would
47:46
say to say the least. So that's that's why I'm not uh pessimistic. Uh and that's why I think don't
47:56
judge it from uh you know the face of it. Yeah. Uh, can I ask you about how we nonSaudis should
Non-Saudis relationship with Saudi
48:06
view the kingdom because of course we everyone sees what the Saudis have been up to and doing and
48:13
and we're we're very perturbed by their activity especially uh normalization with Israel and and a
48:20
lack of action over Gaza. Um uh there has been a a conversation, it hasn't had very much traction,
48:26
but there is a conversation amongst Muslims that should we really be going to Omra so often,
48:33
for example, and and how that feeds the Saudi economy uh and and should we really be um
48:41
um you know, should we now think about Saudi Arabia as a country that should be on our boycott
48:47
list for example? I mean what advice would you give to just your ordinary Muslim you know who goes to Omra especially here from the west right we we can go to Omra every year if we want to and
48:56
some people do go to Omra on their way to Dubai or somewhere they go to Omra Dubai is another
49:02
country they should probably boycott um uh how do we how do we how should we view uh Saudi Arabia
49:10
like what untangle that dilemma for us please yeah of course um so it's it's not easy even for me.
49:19
uh although we have thought about that a lot and we discussed it a lot with a lot of people and a lot of folks a lot of folks and a lot of colleagues of mine including within like within
49:27
the dissident community um and um I I think I leave it to the people and their assessment
49:36
uh especially those who never had hajj it's like whether the like performing the ritual
49:42
uh and whether this going to be a risk for them or not and whether this is going to go into the hands
49:49
and the benefit of the Saudi government directly or not. Um I think yes at the end they are I mean
49:54
the Saudi government are benefiting from how many people but believe it or not at the end I
49:59
think we realized and alhamdulillah I was in this position that I I I invest more in not calling
50:09
people not to go there but rather to use it uh to you know uh talk to people have conversation of
50:19
course be careful but also uh you know document and once you go back you can talk you can have
50:28
a conversation and um you know um it's like for example I remember during the Hajj not last time
50:36
but Hajj before a lot of the people who actually helped us document the you know during the Hajj
50:46
thing during the Hajj crisis was actually were were all these people um and individuals. We kind
50:53
of created what like a crisis I would say team. Uh and during that Hajj actually um uh we documented
51:05
about above a thousand people died stampede. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And
51:11
then at that time the Saudi government came out and they said there was zero incidents. No way.
51:17
We call them out. We talk to every agency that we know. We send them the numbers. We send them the
51:23
names. We talk to everybody including diplomats like Jordanian diplomats, Egyptian diplomats like
51:28
Tunisian diplomats and you know from uh you know around the world uh and even um western diplomats
51:37
um who lost contact of their citizens and then we talked we connect them with with agencies and
51:43
you know French the French agency and the AP and other agencies and then when the Washington Post
51:50
and other journals uh and newspapers started to publish about this. They the the Saudi government
51:58
was freaking out. They they they hated us mostly for this. Um and then later that week they
52:07
actually uh admitted that a,31 people had died. Uh and uh if it if it were not for this for these
52:20
people individuals and like who who actually did a lot to help and uh protect them and you know um
52:28
so this is just a you know an example of what you can do uh other than just be by cotton. So
Actions of Israel
52:37
let's talk about contemporary uh politics. What's happened you in recent months? Now, of course,
52:43
uh we've had uh a series of events, in particular, the the uh the horrific u um
52:50
explosions or or bombings of of of do in Doha of the Hamas leadership. And it just seems to me,
52:58
and maybe again I'm I'm overreading this, but it just seems to me that um the past few months of
53:04
Israel's bellyos behavior has have those weeks have has Israel's actions maybe maybe given the
53:14
Saudi government uh paused for thought because the original conversation we had uh 7 months ago now,
53:20
you know, you were pretty adamant that Saudi Arabia was on the pathway to normalization, right? Uh do you think that um these actions of Israel in the last few months has really woken up
53:32
the Saudi establishment to uh the real intentions of the Zionist state? That's a very good question.
53:38
I think woken up is a very strong word, very uh optimistic. I hope that was the case. Yeah. Uh
53:47
practically I think it's not um for the reasons that I'm I'm going to say here. uh one um reading
53:57
the pattern when you when you understand uh uh politics of someone or some leadership
54:04
uh you want to detect the pattern if you see the pattern of the Saudi leadership systems came to
54:10
power uh you understand you will understand uh clearly that uh normalization was something that
54:18
uh they were pursuing all along. M just a few days I want to remind uh your uh listeners uh
54:25
and viewers a few days before the October 7th NBS said uh we are never been closer to normalization
54:33
than today. Yeah. Um he said that on Fox News. uh and then uh even when the October 7th happened,
54:42
I don't know if you remember this, but also also approached the Israelis with an idea and a plan
54:49
that they will stop even uh uh um you know um for a short period of time the bombardment of Gaza
54:59
in return for the normalization uh because he still wanted to normalize. Uh however,
55:06
what changed over time is that the Israelis became less interested in normalization. Um in a sense
55:13
that the Saudis and the Saudi leadership was more uh interested in normalization than Israel itself.
55:22
And this is not just according to me, according even to somebody like um James Dorsy uh and
55:32
others um who were close to the understanding of the Israeli leadership. Uh and so that that's I
55:41
think one important point in understanding what happened what what led to the current situation.
55:47
So that Israel uh even in the last few weeks uh the uh one of the Israeli newspaper I forgot
55:57
what it is um but it reported that Beyamin Netanyahu sent a message to NBS saying that
56:06
uh um you know they're no longer waiting for NBS to uh you know approach them with normalization
56:14
meaning like they're not even interested they sent a message. It's like oh we are not even interested
56:20
now in normalization. Um the Americans and there are multiple reports saying that the Americans
56:28
um sent multiple messages um and multiple uh uh uh you know uh you know conversations. They
56:40
had multiple conversations with the with Binyami Netanyahu and all of the occupation leaders saying
56:48
that well um if you want normalization with these Gulf countries or the remaining Gulf countries who
56:55
hadn't normalized yet uh you should uh you know at least find a way to stop you know uh doing that or
57:04
or have a different approach toward it just to save face for these leaders to have an like a
57:09
proper normalization with you. Uh and he ignored all of these things and went ahead with all of
57:17
you know of all of what happened and we also um so I think that's number two. Uh number three,
57:26
um NBS and the SEI government and authorities found themselves in this predicament where they
57:35
want to pursue normalization, but normalization itself is not being pursued by the Israelis that
57:41
you want normal to normalize with. So you can't be more monarchical than the monarch itself and
57:49
then the king uh himself. Uh I mean they found themselves to be really in an embarrassing
57:57
situation where they are uh wanting something for Israel that Israel itself is not you know pursuing
58:05
the way that the Saudis did. And then um they I mean the calculation that they went through in
58:13
their head is that well if this is not happening and we wanted to uh at least um look among our
58:25
audience and among our population like we are caring and we care for the Palestinian issue.
58:32
they pursued that. And yeah, I think I I think an important understanding to all of this is to say
58:44
um I'm a strong believer that this the the vast majority and I think I've said that multiple
58:50
times and many things before. The vast majority of the Saudi population still believes, understands,
58:58
and supports the Palestinian issue in all hearts. Don't believe or be deceived by what you see
59:05
online. It's all manufactured in small rooms in Riad by the Saudi government. They what it's what
59:13
they wanted you to see, not what the Saudi uh population uh, you know, do or think. I mean,
59:20
Abdullah, why do you think that the Israelis are no longer inclined towards normalization with Israel? because at one point that was seen to be you know the the crowning achievement of the deal
59:31
of the century. What what changed? I think what changed is that the internal calculation of the
59:38
um Israeli government and Netanyahu especially Netanyahu uh is that there there are two factors.
59:48
one the foreign policy or the like embracement of the neighbors. Uh and the other factor is the
59:59
content of the population and what they want like their what they think their population and most of
1:00:06
the Israelis which is winning the war at all cost at the humanitarian cost at uh all disastrous at
1:00:14
all all ethnic cleansing and you know all the the catastrophes that we seen and he definitely chose
1:00:22
the latter um like you want to have a diplomatic relationship uh at the expense of the there was a
1:00:32
time when they think they had to choose between they can't have both. So from what you've said
Normalisation agenda
1:00:39
is normalization then off the agenda in the foreseeable future? Yeah. For the for the uh
1:00:46
foreseeable future meaning in the next few months? No way. Next few years. Next few years. Who knows
1:00:52
if things like radically changed. For example, one of the things that the Saudis want to have before
1:00:59
normalization is to have a point that they can sell to the people and to the Arab you know region
1:01:09
that they have done for Palestine in return for normalization. So if you see now I think this will
1:01:17
help you understand what the moves now about like the Palestinian statethood and whether this is
1:01:24
genuine or not. I think by now you understand what I think about it. Yeah. I mean in in our previous
Americans
1:01:29
conversation we talked about the Americans of course the the it it was very clear to me that
1:01:37
normalization uh even though they talked as a fig leaf about a Palestinian state in reality there
1:01:43
were greater national interest concerns or at least NBS national interest concerns at stake and
1:01:49
and the negotiation was directly uh a negotiation with the Americans by what you by extension of
1:01:55
what you've said so far um It seems to me that if normalization seems to be off the table,
1:02:01
the Americans are not that interested in in engaging the Saudis on on on this reproachment
1:02:07
with supposed you know public reproachment with Israel. Is that is that fair to say? I think it's very fair. I think there are two points quick points here. one very true. Um uh it it was
1:02:19
made clear or became clear to all these actors that uh normalization is normal is no longer uh
1:02:33
associated closely associated with the security guarantees that the Saudis
1:02:39
uh want to have from the Americans. That's one. Um because with the Trump
1:02:44
administration and all the pure transactional relationship, yeah, they um you know basically
1:02:54
uh approach this in the way in a way that um the Trump administration wants money, wants deals,
1:03:01
wants all these billions from the Saudis and I think they promised to give him promised promised to give him uh signed so many deals, so many contracts we it's now well known. Um so for
1:03:16
the Saudi leadership and Muhammad Musman, well if this was enough for them then why would we
1:03:24
you know do that? Uh so that's also part of the calculation. I think the second factor is that
1:03:30
um uh again the development in the region uh and uh Netanyahu realizing that um if they want some
1:03:42
kind of even safe face kind of concession uh even that he's not ready to do it. He's not
1:03:52
uh you know in the place to want to do it. Yeah. And he chose not to. and the Saudis felt well no
1:04:00
I mean why would we do it now there is no interest and the final factor in all of this also is again
1:04:09
the Saudi people um I've I've noticed in the past I would say few weeks the trend in hashtags on X
1:04:20
of course pushed by the Saudi bots associated with the Saudi government is that MBS is
1:04:26
um is is the new I kid you not making this up. Um you know, and by the way, I'm I'm happy not
1:04:36
because they're lying about this, but I'm happy at least they're pretending to care, which is a bit
1:04:42
of a progress from the past, you know, complete abandonment of the issue is not when they even
1:04:50
did not care to pretend, you know, pretending to care. You know there is a famous songw
1:04:59
from it's like see even like when you are lying that you love me you know I think that's what he's
Saudi-Pakistan defence pact
1:05:07
doing he's he's of course he's lying but at least he's pretending to love. So uh can we then talk
1:05:14
about the security guarantees because of course what is really interesting in this past week actually is the uh surprise Saudi Pakistan um uh defense pact. Uh and of course this defense pact
1:05:28
is is being tallied is been pushed as a a NATO style defense plan. And of course, one of the key
1:05:34
uh sticking points in the negotiations with the Americans was uh creating this security umbrella
1:05:41
uh a NATO style security defense bat between Saudi Arabia and and America. And as far as I know,
1:05:46
that hasn't really moved forward. Yeah. So, um I'm intrigued to understand why did Saudi Arabia
1:05:53
decide to sign this pad? Is it substantial in in your eyes? And um does it indicate that Saudi
1:06:00
Arabia again has has realized that at least that the Israelis are no longer uh because of course
1:06:07
it's time to come after the Doha attacks and it it seems to be you know it seems to come after
1:06:15
the series of unprecedented Israeli activities across the Middle East. So is it a sign that NBS
1:06:21
has woken up to and again I know the word woken up is probably too too firm too strong here but
1:06:27
has has realized that the Israelis uh cannot really be uh partners security partners moving
1:06:34
forward. A great question. So um first of all um we have to understand the context and the history
1:06:43
uh between the two countries. Um growing up uh I've always heard that um in the you know
1:06:52
Pakistani army there is um they said brigade um uh that was named after the two holy mosques
1:07:01
uh and was uh devoted and dedicated to protect uh Saudi Arabia. That's what they said. Um
1:07:11
uh also historically uh Pakistan and Saudi Arabia had so many agreements, security agreements,
1:07:20
military agreements. Uh it has that long history. Uh when NBS came to power and things became more
1:07:27
transactional, uh he realized during the Yemen war, the beginning of Yemen war that he would
1:07:35
need Pakistan. So he think that he would buy them. Um so he at that time approached Imran Khan. Um
1:07:46
uh and uh there was if I remember correctly a deal uh I don't know how how much was materialized but
1:07:55
a deal uh to uh defend Saudi Arabia and all that and Saudi Arabia in return would pay such and such
1:08:02
amount. Uh however Iran Khan did not want to also be directly involved with the Yemen war.
1:08:09
Um Ahmed Misman was so much um disappointed. Uh there was a time when even uh people close to
1:08:17
the circle of NBS said there was even screaming uh in the room uh between the two. Uh there was
1:08:24
a time when Iran was so like left uh so angry. Uh so so the this is part of the recent history also
1:08:34
between the two. Also growing up uh we we have always heard that uh Saudi Arabia has or had
1:08:44
um a nuclear weapon uh in Pakistan. Uh meaning at that time what they pretended or or or at least
1:08:54
um claimed uh is that Pakistan was kind of the the surrogate if I use IVF language the surrogate
1:09:02
for the nuclear uh pregnancy if I may say uh for Saudi Arabia and um uh that was part for like to
1:09:14
defend Saudi Arabia part of the agreements like all all that history between the two countries.
1:09:21
Um NBS right now uh after I would say the two 2019 gig moment. The gig moment is when the oil
1:09:32
refinery was hit by the Houthis uh the Americans uh even during Trump did not want to get involved
1:09:40
uh and basically left Saudi Arabia to its fate. NBS was so shocked. It was a turning point in
1:09:48
uh Saudi security calculations. Um and NBS uh this is when NBS started to think about
1:10:00
either Biden binding the US to an actual and real security uh agreement where they will defend him
1:10:12
if things happen uh or he will turn somewhere else. Um so that's when he started doing that.
1:10:21
Now with the security agreement falling down and not you know being fulfilled when the you know uh
1:10:30
Trump administration you know not willing to go into war for any country perhaps except Israel.
1:10:42
um NBS started to realize well even if they signed the security agreements with
1:10:48
the Americans Americans are the masters of loopholes they will find a loophole in any
1:10:56
security agreement they will turn their back on you they can do it like this and um so that's one
1:11:04
and two um now part of the calculation well like all what MBS has thought about was like Iran is
1:11:13
the enemy. Now if Israel was the one to bomb, you know, uh so that is the calculation. Of course,
1:11:22
I'm going to come to that. Uh this is not going to help at all. Americans will definitely be on
1:11:31
the side of Israel, not Saudi Arabia, if they have to choose. Um so that's this was like another uh I
1:11:39
would say moment. Now this is the the dha moment, the gig moment and the da moment. Now is this a
1:11:47
good progress toward understanding the region? I think for me it's a step in the right direction.
1:11:55
I'm trying to be really really careful. Now you you you get this from a dissident. I'm trying to be fair. Yes, it's a step in the right direction. But also we have to be really really careful not
1:12:06
to I would say overestimate what this agreement means for both sides. One let me ask you this. Um
1:12:17
the NATO agreement is actually means it goes both sides right? He should go both sides like what
1:12:26
would the Sudis offer to protect Pakistan because Pakistan has something to offer to protect Saudi
1:12:35
Arabia if they will um is Saudi Arabia willing and able for example if Pakistan went to war with
1:12:46
India for example this is not a like a far-fetched scenario uh Would Sery be part of the you know war
1:12:55
and like inter war? Absolutely not. This is not thinkable. Uh so this is just a simple scenario
1:13:02
that shows you this is not going to happen. the NATO style agreement between the two countries
1:13:09
are more like in paper uh than an actual uh you know change of um I would say security
1:13:20
uh uh dynamics uh in the region. It's it's part of I think for me it's part of NBS's maneuver to
1:13:30
the west that I have other alternatives right it's maneuver it's like I'm I'm not satisfied
1:13:37
with whatever you have provided me so far and even when you give me security guarantees I have
1:13:42
to make sure that this is going to happen uh and perhaps uh also when uh the DA moment happened Um,
1:13:53
and I think despite all the the problematic and all the the the catastrophe that this caused,
1:14:01
uh, it was a moment to at least help, I would say, um, kind of kind of, uh, correct the the compass
1:14:13
uh, of what, um, what could happen, you know, and what and and who the the the, you know,
1:14:22
the I mean where the problem could come from, you know what I mean? Uh so all what basically
1:14:33
occupied NBS's mind since he came to power is the nuclear weapon of Iran. And right now what
1:14:45
actually bombed uh the Gulf was not that nuclear state but actually uh you know Israel. So has
Iran
1:14:55
there been a a recalibration of of of um of assess threat assessment here? I mean is Saudi Arabia
1:15:05
less uh harmed by or less perturbed by a nuclear armed Iranian state? and possibly more perturbed
1:15:14
by Israel. Uh I don't think it's to that point. I think they are in the moment that they are
1:15:26
still like they still like afraid I think of the Iranians more than the Israelis, right? Big time.
1:15:31
Yeah. But I think they are a bit less paranoid. They're not as paranoid. Yeah. As they were once
1:15:42
because in the past they were paranoid about the Iranians to the degree that they didn't care about anybody else. And this kind of like give them a a scenario where an alternative could happen. Um,
1:15:55
so they're still paranoid about the Israelis, but I think about the Iranians, I mean. Um but I think the also the Americans involvement in the war uh and and and and uh you know
1:16:09
uh striking striking different cities uh basically uh Syria going out of the calculation for you know
1:16:19
allies of Iran and and Hezbollah you know also being hit and all of that uh gave gives Saabia a
1:16:31
bit of a moment to rethink that well they're not as strong as they thought and um uh even if they
1:16:41
were they are not now uh and uh Israel became part of the you know scene and I just want to also say
1:16:52
this one last thing which is the Israelis they they're not They're not um you you do not have
1:17:02
to analyze what the Israelis want to say and do. They they say it themselves. Yeah. And they do
1:17:08
it. Uh Biny Netanyahu said it. He said, "We going to go after anybody who uh you know uh is is uh
1:17:19
thought to be a threat to us anywhere and anywhere like should be underlined. um uh when they went
1:17:29
uh after Hamas leaders in in in DHA despite the you know all the Americans all the Americans you
1:17:38
know um coordinations with with with the about this I mean for God's sake uh Hamas position
1:17:50
in DHA was in close coordination with the US to be positioned there uh in order to facilitate uh
1:17:58
negotiation. And despite all of that and despite all the allies, despite all the, you know,
1:18:05
lavish spending during the Trump trip, uh despite all the, you know, um the promises and everything,
1:18:12
you know, they did it nevertheless. Abdah, I'm fascinated by this term you use for Doha moment.
Doha Moment
1:18:19
I mean, do you think it's a moment not just for Saudi Arabia, but a moment for all of the country,
1:18:24
all of the re uh countries in the region? Um, I just wonder whether uh because I I hear there's
1:18:32
talk about expanding this agreement with Pakistan to Egypt, maybe even to uh Qatar,
1:18:39
maybe even others in the region may want to join. Um, I mean, how likely do you think that is? I
1:18:45
think it's possible. Uh but also I don't want to overestimate it or um think that it's going to
1:18:55
do bigger than what could actually do you know uh and um uh at the same time I think yeah there are
1:19:10
actors in the region um that started to think that um Israel is not just threatening. They can act,
1:19:23
they can operate and I think um with Israelis being isolated diplomatically, they are not
1:19:31
more dangerous because they are not now uh even caring about pretending to be, you know,
1:19:37
to abide by any international law or anything. They never did, but you know, they're now even
1:19:43
more so. Um and now with is with the Israelis um going to Lebanon, Syria, bombarding Iran, places
1:19:58
in Iraq, DHA, Yemen. I mean who else? Like right now we just mentioned like what seven countries
1:20:07
uh in the region. why you think other countries are, you know, immune from uh being the next
1:20:14
target. Abdullah, as we wrap this conversation up, I mean, let me ask you a personal question.
Worry for his safety?
1:20:19
I mean, do you worry about your own safety um when it comes to being a Saudi dissident,
1:20:24
we know what happened horrifically to uh Jamal Tashogi. We know that I mean I passed a street of
1:20:31
course that's named after him by the Saudi embassy of course but uh we know that um there are uh but
1:20:38
the Saudi government remains as you've just right described today extremely repressive um the Saudi
1:20:46
Arabia still use the Pegasus software the Israelis have supplied them in in you know in in in trying
1:20:52
to break into phones of of these dissident like do you worry about your own your own safety and
1:20:58
you have concern concerns about that. Well, look um uh I remember growing up uh once hearing a
1:21:04
story from my father. Yeah. He said uh plague uh went to a town uh and then uh when he went out of
1:21:15
this town like in the form of a human being uh people saw him and they asked him he's like oh
1:21:23
you were the plague. He said yes. He said oh you went out of this town. He said, "Yes." He said,
1:21:28
"But you killed f 5 5,000 people." I said, "What?" "No, I only killed 500." So they said, "Then what
1:21:36
the 4,500 remaining people were killed from?" He said, "From feeding me, feed him the plague." Um,
1:21:45
and this in this analogy, I would say the plague here is dictatorship and tyranny. Uh, for me,
1:21:52
I would never die from, you know, we only die once, as they say. uh I will never die from like
1:21:58
I will try inshallah not to die from feeding uh all this repressive policies. Um, and I think they
1:22:09
they part of what they engineer in policy, uh, these dictator uh, you know, minds is to make you
1:22:20
fear them to the degree that [ __ ] you from doing the right thing, from exposing the wrong policies,
1:22:31
from calling out violations, from documenting in uh you know repressive policies uh and I think I
1:22:40
choose not to uh fear because it's a choice. The prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said to man so
1:22:48
people later said how you asking somebody not to have a certain feeling is just it's just it's a
1:22:58
message that you can't control your own feelings. You can't have a feeling or not. You can have uh
1:23:03
uh anger or not and you can have fear or not. So inshallah inshallah I choose not to have fear. And
Shaykh Salman Aloudh
1:23:11
finally your father Shik Salman Auda you know he's he's in prison he remains languishing in
1:23:17
prison. I believe he's still on death row in in in Saudi Arabia. Um just tell us a little bit about
1:23:23
uh his detention, his treatment and and what are any updates on on on his condition? actually uh
1:23:30
this this month uh marked an eighth the eighth year since his um imprisonment. He's still in
1:23:37
solitary confinement. He was mistreated um just for a tweet for a tweet. Uh but again it's a it's
1:23:44
a tweet that was the I think the the the the I would say the trigger but also it was a longer
1:23:52
uh relationship and and fear of uh this discourse of independent scholars Muslim scholars in Saudi
1:24:00
Arabia u and and you know eight years later now um he's still in the same position. Uh yes there
1:24:11
are people who were released. Uh we asking Allah subhana tala to fasten his release and to make
1:24:17
it quick. Um but yeah I mean the at the end uh just keep him in your prayers and thoughts and
1:24:27
inshallah uh this will happen. Um, Abdullah, it's really been a fascinating conversation and uh,
1:24:35
I I really the phrase you use, the Doha moment, I think is a phrase that needs to catch on because
1:24:40
I I suspect uh, this has been a a wakeup call. I know the term wake up is is still debatable, but
1:24:47
it's been a wakeup call for everyone. Uh, Jakar, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for having me. Asalam alaikum. Now, you've reached the end of this show, and the
1:24:57
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